for fun... Sac/Tor/LAC - Bosh/Kaman become Kings

[Nighthawk1]

This is for a resigned Bosh.
Personally I'm split on sending out JT (because I think JT will be a good player for years to come), but I doubt Tor woudl want Hawes when they already have a similar player in Bargnani..

Sac out: KMart, JT, K9, Beno, Top 3 protected 1st Rounder
Sac In: Chris Kaman, Chris Bosh

Raptors Out: Bosh, DeRozen
Raptors In: JT, KMart, Sebastian Telfair, Kings 1st

LAC Out: Chris Kaman
LAC In: Beno, K9, Telfair


Kings Why: Kings use some major trade chips and assets people might get mad at (JT, protected 1st, and beno). In return we get Bosh and Kaman and a prospect in DeRozen. I'm not sure this really requires an explanation except we turn our assets into All-Star level bigmen.

Tor Why: Bosh isn't sticking around and they want value for him. JT gives them a similar but not as good player in JT, who in years to come can really become a really good PF. KMart who is a top 5 scorer when healthy, and the potential to get the draft pick (which they more than likely will). They get the value that Bosh is likely to pick up imo.

LAC Why: Kings pull a fast one on the Clippers and capitalize on their FO and Beno's play. Dunleavy coveted Beno, and more they likely still does, they also get K9 who is a big expiring.

 

[upinsmoke]

No way im giving up a 1st and JT in any way not even for Bosh.

You want Bosh write a check.

 

[bajaden]

We're giving up four players for two. Actually five players if you count the top three protected draft pick. You can kiss the pick goodby because I doubt we'll be picking in the top three. I don't know in the long run how much better Bosh is going to be than Thompson. Bosh has never been a physcial player until this year. Thompson has been a physcial player from the get go. Then you factor in that there's no guarrantee we'll be able to resign Bosh, and I have to say no thanks.

If I were to take a risk on Bosh, I would rather add him to the mix with Hawes and Thompson. Or, add Kaman to the mix of Hawes and Thompson. Its time for us to stop moving core pieces for other core pieces. We need to add to our core pieces.

I would take Evan's, Thompson, Casspi, Martin, and Greene, and draw a circle around them as untouchable except for no brainers. My next grouping would be Hawes, Beno, Sergio and Cisco. I don't want to move them, but I'll listen to offers. Nocioni and K.T. are obvious trade bait.

 

[Entity]

We're giving up four players for two. Actually five players if you count the top three protected draft pick. You can kiss the pick goodby because I doubt we'll be picking in the top three. I don't know in the long run how much better Bosh is going to be than Thompson. Bosh has never been a physcial player until this year. Thompson has been a physcial player from the get go. Then you factor in that there's no guarrantee we'll be able to resign Bosh, and I have to say no thanks.

If I were to take a risk on Bosh, I would rather add him to the mix with Hawes and Thompson. Or, add Kaman to the mix of Hawes and Thompson. Its time for us to stop moving core pieces for other core pieces. We need to add to our core pieces.

I would take Evan's, Thompson, Casspi, Martin, and Greene, and draw a circle around them as untouchable except for no brainers. My next grouping would be Hawes, Beno, Sergio and Cisco. I don't want to move them, but I'll listen to offers. Nocioni and K.T. are obvious trade bait.

We should put that in parenthasis beside their name on the roster. Or in quotations as a nick name. Kenny "trade bait" Thomas

 

[Chupacabra]

We're giving up four players for two. Actually five players if you count the top three protected draft pick. You can kiss the pick goodby because I doubt we'll be picking in the top three. I don't know in the long run how much better Bosh is going to be than Thompson. Bosh has never been a physcial player until this year. Thompson has been a physcial player from the get go. Then you factor in that there's no guarrantee we'll be able to resign Bosh, and I have to say no thanks.

If I were to take a risk on Bosh, I would rather add him to the mix with Hawes and Thompson. Or, add Kaman to the mix of Hawes and Thompson. Its time for us to stop moving core pieces for other core pieces. We need to add to our core pieces.

I would take Evan's, Thompson, Casspi, Martin, and Greene, and draw a circle around them as untouchable except for no brainers. My next grouping would be Hawes, Beno, Sergio and Cisco. I don't want to move them, but I'll listen to offers. Nocioni and K.T. are obvious trade bait.

My grouping would look more like a several times traced over red circle around Evans, wouldnt trade him unless it was for D.Howard or A.Bynum. The next grouping would be Thompson, Martin. I wouldnt look to trade either player but id entertain deals that look beneficial. The next grouping would be Casspi, Greene, Sergio, Cisco. I wouldnt want to trade them but afterall the NBA is a business. Last grouping would by Nocioni, K9, and Beno, Id be actively looking to move them.

 

[Bricklayer]

I don't really buy the myth of super JT, so this is not completely insane (even if obviously it is nigh on impossible in real life). But I'm not totally in love with it either. In one fell swoop it burns basically all of our best trade assets - Kevin, the #1 pick, and KTs ender, also throws in our best young big, and...well, I like the package coming back, but I want to get out of things cheaper if I could.

As an aside, untouchables

Tier 1 -- Reke
no almost regardless of offer

Tier 2 -- Greene, Casspi
show so much promise and yet are so young its hard to imagine anybody making a fair offer for them

Tier 3 -- JT, Hawes
flawed and can be improved upon via trade, but only in a trade for a better big

Tier 4 -- Sergio, and yes probably Beno
shockingly effective guys that would have been good dumpbait a month ago, but now we need value for

Tier 5 -- everyone else
make me an offer -- my top 6 keepers are 23 and under, give me somethign to put aournd them to complete them

 

[Nighthawk1]

We're giving up four players for two. Actually five players if you count the top three protected draft pick. You can kiss the pick goodby because I doubt we'll be picking in the top three. I don't know in the long run how much better Bosh is going to be than Thompson. Bosh has never been a physcial player until this year. Thompson has been a physcial player from the get go. Then you factor in that there's no guarrantee we'll be able to resign Bosh, and I have to say no thanks.

If I were to take a risk on Bosh, I would rather add him to the mix with Hawes and Thompson. Or, add Kaman to the mix of Hawes and Thompson. Its time for us to stop moving core pieces for other core pieces. We need to add to our core pieces.

I would take Evan's, Thompson, Casspi, Martin, and Greene, and draw a circle around them as untouchable except for no brainers. My next grouping would be Hawes, Beno, Sergio and Cisco. I don't want to move them, but I'll listen to offers. Nocioni and K.T. are obvious trade bait.

The start of the trade thread states - for a resigned Bosh. That part is already a done deal.

I actually made a Mistake which no one caught - DeRozan also comes to Sac (gives us an athletic SG who has a good Mid-Range game and also plays good D)

Sometimes I see comments posted on trade threads in here such as "only for Bosh" or a Superstar/Allstar type bigman. I just wanted to put out what one would actually look like. You are probably right though, the draft pick might be overboard just due to the growth on JT's part. But I think it's right in line with what any team would want for a Bosh/Amare type player.

Basically though we're trading four players; two (one trade bait and one that is impossible to trade under most circumstances) for a legit starting skilled center and two for a 20/10 All-Star Big Man. Plus Derozan.

Now so you can visualize what our line-up would consist of after these trades...

Kaman/Hawes
Bosh/Hawes/Brockman
Noci/Greene/Casspi
Garcia/DeRozen
Evans/Sergio

 

[Nighthawk1]

I don't really buy the myth of super JT, so this is not completely insane (even if obviously it is nigh on impossible in real life). But I'm not totally in love with it either. In one fell swoop it burns basically all of our best trade assets - Kevin, the #1 pick, and KTs ender, also throws in our best young big, and...well, I like the package coming back, but I want to get out of things cheaper if I could.

As an aside, untouchables

Tier 1 -- Reke
no almost regardless of offer

Tier 2 -- Greene, Casspi
show so much promise and yet are so young its hard to imagine anybody making a fair offer for them

Tier 3 -- JT, Hawes
flawed and can be improved upon via trade, but only in a trade for a better big

Tier 4 -- Sergio, and yes probably Beno
shockingly effective guys that would have been good dumpbait a month ago, but now we need value for

Tier 5 -- everyone else
make me an offer -- my top 6 keepers are 23 and under, give me somethign to put aournd them to complete them

I agree with your Tier's even though I'd probably put JT into T2 just on a personal level. I can understand with trying to keep things cheaper though because this would be a pricey roster..

 

[AriesMar27]

in the original post you didnt put derozan on the kings... but i would be all for trading thompson/martin for bosh... buy low, sell high... how much better will thompson be this year to make this look any better for the raptors? it doesnt look that bad for the raptors even if you take out the clipper part of the deal.

calderon
martin
hedo
thomspon
bargnani

not that bad of a starting five in the east and we would get bosh...

 

[The Astronaut]

Tier 2 -- Greene, Casspi
show so much promise and yet are so young its hard to imagine anybody making a fair offer for them

Tier 3 -- JT, Hawes
flawed and can be improved upon via trade, but only in a trade for a better big

I think JT goes in T #2 IMO. I keep seeing people write, "In a few years JT will be this or that". well I want the Kings to be the team he is with when he develops. I think he has so much talent. I'm sick of acting as a farm system for other teams.

Hawes is young but i think will always be a bench guy. again IMO. I would love to move him while he is still attractive to other teams.

 

[Bricklayer]

I think JT goes in T #2 IMO. I keep seeing people write, "In a few years JT will be this or that". well I want the Kings to be the team he is with when he develops. I think he has so much talent. I'm sick of acting as a farm system for other teams.

I am not sure the "this or that" people are necesarily seeing with the clearest eyes. They may be. He shows flashes of talent that always intrigue. But he's never shown any sustained star type game. My own intrigue with him centers around his ability to be productive at his current levels despite all of his flaws. In any case though, unlike Donte and Casspi he's enough of a known entity that i could see a fair trade being offered which included him.

 

[bajaden]

I am not sure the "this or that" people are necesarily seeing with the clearest eyes. They may be. He shows flashes of talent that always intrigue. But he's never shown any sustained star type game. My own intrigue with him centers around his ability to be productive at his current levels despite all of his flaws. In any case though, unlike Donte and Casspi he's enough of a known entity that i could see a fair trade being offered which included him.

I'm aware that you see JT in a different light than I do. And thats fine. Your vision of him may end up being right. I just think that unless we get offered an absolutely no brainer deal, I would rather wait and see. Right now the only thing stopping Thompson from being an upper tier player in this league is Thompson himself. As you said, we see glimpses of what he's capable of doing from time to time. I agree with you that its doubtful he'll ever be a good shot blocker. But that one thing alone is hardly criteria for not being a very good player. Karl Malone wasn't a great shot blocker. Neither is Al Jefferson, or Stoudemire.

A players true value is not always what he is right now, but what he will be. And of course, thats the rub. And with you and I, its subjective. However, I do see your point of view.

 

[Kingster]

Who here has watched a ton of Toronto games? I want a scouting report on Bosh. His name keeps coming up continually and all I can see in my mind's eye is a guy who can score, but a guy who is soft defensively. True? False? If he's so great, why is Toronto so mediocre?

 

[Bricklayer]

Who here has watched a ton of Toronto games? I want a scouting report on Bosh. His name keeps coming up continually and all I can see in my mind's eye is a guy who can score, but a guy who is soft defensively. True? False? If he's so great, why is Toronto so mediocre?

He is a) great; and b) a poor defender. But he is not Great (big G). I would not suggest trying to acquire him alone to tbe the franchise guy and carry us home. But now we have Reke who could be that sort of player and all you need out of Chris Bosh, 24pt 12reb guy, is to be a super wingman type.

 

[upinsmoke]

im going to throw one stat out.


RPG 11.90

3rd in the NBA. Now Spencer might become the center of the future one day but as of today he ranks 62 in rebs with 6.4 a game.

Front court off Bosh, Spencer, Thompson plus the chance to draft high again. Yes please.

 

[Prince_XY]

At the rate Thompson is going with his development and if he does not change his all-out-effort in his game, I think Thompson will be a notch better over-all player than Bosh in a couple of years.

So, NO for Bosh if we're going to lose Thompson.

 

[kingsnation]

I don't really buy the myth of super JT, so this is not completely insane (even if obviously it is nigh on impossible in real life). But I'm not totally in love with it either. In one fell swoop it burns basically all of our best trade assets - Kevin, the #1 pick, and KTs ender, also throws in our best young big, and...well, I like the package coming back, but I want to get out of things cheaper if I could.

As an aside, untouchables

Tier 1 -- Reke
no almost regardless of offer

Tier 2 -- Greene, Casspi
show so much promise and yet are so young its hard to imagine anybody making a fair offer for them

Tier 3 -- JT, Hawes
flawed and can be improved upon via trade, but only in a trade for a better big

Tier 4 -- Sergio, and yes probably Beno
shockingly effective guys that would have been good dumpbait a month ago, but now we need value for

Tier 5 -- everyone else
make me an offer -- my top 6 keepers are 23 and under, give me somethign to put aournd them to complete them

I tend to agree with your Tiers here, but I'd probably fit JT in the T2, and then Kevin in T4.

 

[Kingster]

He is a) great; and b) a poor defender. But he is not Great (big G). I would not suggest trying to acquire him alone to tbe the franchise guy and carry us home. But now we have Reke who could be that sort of player and all you need out of Chris Bosh, 24pt 12reb guy, is to be a super wingman type.

We don't need a poor defender in the frontcourt. It was interesting/coincidental that I saw highlights of last night's Toronto's game with Bosh just watching as players went past him getting layups. I'm done with soft. And I hope the Kings management is too, even if the player might have the hype of Bosh. The guy has been in the league long enough to play D. I don't want a NO-D ethic to poison this young Kings team.

 

[Bricklayer]

We don't need a poor defender in the frontcourt. It was interesting/coincidental that I saw highlights of last night's Toronto's game with Bosh just watching as players went past him getting layups. I'm done with soft. And I hope the Kings management is too, even if the player might have the hype of Bosh. The guy has been in the league long enough to play D. I don't want a NO-D ethic to poison this young Kings team.

You don't have many choices with players at that level. And you need players of that level to win big. They just have a rotting softness sickness up in Toronto that was macthed perhaps only by our own until this season. Give Bosh a fresh start, on a team going places, and he could get better. He alreayd took the next step on the glass, and you can't ignore a 24 and 12 guy no matter the warts.

 

[Nighthawk1]

You don't have many choices with players at that level. And you need players of that level to win big. They just have a rotting softness sickness up in Toronto that was macthed perhaps only by our own until this season. Give Bosh a fresh start, on a team going places, and he could get better. He alreayd took the next step on the glass, and you can't ignore a 24 and 12 guy no matter the warts.

I agree, I think with the right culture Bosh can and will step it up defensively. But more importantly we get that inside scoring presence which we sorely lack right now. (You saw what the Roy + Aldridge Combo did) Just think of an Evans + Bosh combo. After that you turn around with what assets are left and trade for a defensive minded Big to sit around the paint and we'll be sitting very pretty...

 

[bajaden]

I'm all for aquiring Bosh, but not at the price of including Thompson in the deal. I would like to see Bosh added to Thompson, not exchanged for him. Here are some interesting stats to compare. Its the first two years for both Bosh and Thompson. With this being Thompson's second year.

Bosh:
1st year: 33.5 MPG, 11.5 PPG, .459%, 7.4 RPG, 1.4 BPG, 1.0 APG
Thompson:
1st year: 28.0 MPG, 11.1 PPG, .497%, 7.4 RPG, 0.7 BPG, 1.1 APG

Bosh:
2nd year: 37.2 MPG, 16.8 PPG, .471%, 8.9 RPG, 1.3 BPG, 1.9 APG
Thompson:
2nd year: 34.1 MPG, 15.0 PPG, .506 %, 9.1 RPG, 1.0 BPG, 2.1 APG

Their stats are eerily similar. Now one could make subjective arguements either way. But its possible that in two years Thompson will be as good as Bosh, or even better. Its easy right now to key in on his mistakes. But I expect the mistakes. Thats how you learn. In just the last two games I've seen an effort on his part to reduce his fouls and to limit his reactions when a foul is called on him. He still has a long way to go, but I think we should take the ride with him.

Personaly I think Okafor is a better fit for this team than Bosh is. However I do realize the need for star power. My point is that maybe Thompson will be that star power in a couple of years. One last note. Thompson may not yet be a great defender, but he's a more willing defender than Bosh is, and he's a much better transition player than Bosh is. You can find fault with him on several things, but never on the hustle part.

 

[ParniValjak]

I'm all for aquiring Bosh, but not at the price of including Thompson in the deal. I would like to see Bosh added to Thompson, not exchanged for him. Here are some interesting stats to compare. Its the first two years for both Bosh and Thompson. With this being Thompson's second year.

Bosh:
1st year: 33.5 MPG, 11.5 PPG, .459%, 7.4 RPG, 1.4 BPG, 1.0 APG
Thompson:
1st year: 28.0 MPG, 11.1 PPG, .497%, 7.4 RPG, 0.7 BPG, 1.1 APG

Bosh:
2nd year: 37.2 MPG, 16.8 PPG, .471%, 8.9 RPG, 1.3 BPG, 1.9 APG
Thompson:
2nd year: 34.1 MPG, 15.0 PPG, .506 %, 9.1 RPG, 1.0 BPG, 2.1 APG

Their stats are eerily similar. Now one could make subjective arguements either way. But its possible that in two years Thompson will be as good as Bosh, or even better. Its easy right now to key in on his mistakes. But I expect the mistakes. Thats how you learn. In just the last two games I've seen an effort on his part to reduce his fouls and to limit his reactions when a foul is called on him. He still has a long way to go, but I think we should take the ride with him.

Personaly I think Okafor is a better fit for this team than Bosh is. However I do realize the need for star power. My point is that maybe Thompson will be that star power in a couple of years. One last note. Thompson may not yet be a great defender, but he's a more willing defender than Bosh is, and he's a much better transition player than Bosh is. You can find fault with him on several things, but never on the hustle part.

No this again!

Look dude we know you are JT lover but seriously lets get realistic here. JT never will be as good as Bosh. They are on 2 totally different levels as players. Bosh always has been and always will be a better player.

 

[rainmaker]

No this again!

Look dude we know you are JT lover but seriously lets get realistic here. JT never will be as good as Bosh. They are on 2 totally different levels as players. Bosh always has been and always will be a better player.

Thats not an objective comment or analysis given JT hasn't even played 110 games in the nba. I hate it when fans act like fortune tellers, and act like they know for a FACT how a players career will turn out. At least Bajaden provided stats and an analysis. You brushed it away with nothing to back it up, except for acting like a psychic.

 

[ParniValjak]

Thats not an objective comment or analysis given JT hasn't even played 110 games in the nba. I hate it when fans act like fortune tellers, and act like they know for a FACT how a players career will turn out. At least Bajaden provided stats and an analysis. You brushed it away with nothing to back it up, except for acting like a psychic.

Stats mean bugger all here. How old was Bosh when he got into the league and how old was JT?!

By JT's age Bosh was an all-star on a losing team. Thats right, ON A LOSING TEAM which means he must have been bloody good to get there.

What you call fortune telling I call realistic. I rather be a realist and evaluate based on what I see than be a hommie that thinks that players playing for my team are best thing ever.

JT is a good player and will have a productive NBA career. A double double PF which are hard to find but to compare him to a perennial all-star is just taking the poetic licence a little too far.

Its the same situation that we had with Peja being compared with Larry Bird and Kevin Martin being compared with Kobe....ie laughable on so many levels.

 

[Nighthawk1]

I think the main point is... Every other scouting department sees what we see with hawes... I think it's a pipe dream to realistically think we can offer hawes as one of the corner stones of a trade to Toronto that brings Bosh to us... I could be 100% wrong, I'm not in a front office but I can't see why they'd trade for the same type of player they already have on the roster (Bargnani) when they could force the hand for JT as well... oh well it's fun to debate about...

 

[Bricklayer]

Thats not an objective comment or analysis given JT hasn't even played 110 games in the nba. I hate it when fans act like fortune tellers, and act like they know for a FACT how a players career will turn out. At least Bajaden provided stats and an analysis. You brushed it away with nothing to back it up, except for acting like a psychic.

Its pretty darn close to "fact". Star players do not look like roleplayers, even at early stages of development. The skillsets are different, whatever the numbers may say. And the numbers also don't mention that Bosh was 20 years old the year he put up 17 and 9 -- same age as Reke.

If it takes burning JT to get Bosh, then you burn JT. Bosh is all of 2 years older, and has been a 20-10 guy for 5 years running now. 1 in 1000 chances that JT could ever even equal that, let alone surpass it. But I would much rather not burn JT unless I had to. He's one of the young leaders of the current squad, and if you ever had the luxury of making him your third big he would be a 6th man of the year candidate. Roleplaying defensive center 25-30min, Bosh 36 min, JT off bench 25-30 minutes could be outstanding, if you could somehow bring it about. JT could play all out, not worry about fouls, overwhelm bench bigs with energy and hustle.

 

[Bricklayer]

I think the main point is... Every other scouting department sees what we see with hawes... I think it's a pipe dream to realistically think we can offer hawes as one of the corner stones of a trade to Toronto that brings Bosh to us... I could be 100% wrong, I'm not in a front office but I can't see why they'd trade for the same type of player they already have on the roster (Bargnani) when they could force the hand for JT as well... oh well it's fun to debate about...

For the very same reason they have Bargnani -- they worship that style of play. They are losers. So I want to take advantage of them being losers.

The biggest threat really to a Kevin/Hawes sort of package might actually be DeRozan, who's startig to come on and who wiht the normal benefit of young player over-hype could make them less interested in Kevin to patch their long time shooting guard hole.

In any case this is one of those times, like Golden State w/ Randolph + Biedrins where I intentionalyl proposes a trade I would never make myself from the other end because of my lack of respect for the decisionmaking process in the targeted franchises They are dumb. They collect softies, shooters, smallballers etc. And taking advantage of stupid people, while impolite, can be darn fun. Would never propose a similar trade to San Antonio or whatnot, because they understand how to win and would never do it.

 

[ParniValjak]

Its pretty darn close to "fact". Star players do not look like roleplayers, even at early stages of development. The skillsets are different, whatever the numbers may say. And the numbers also don't mention that Bosh was 20 years old the year he put up 17 and 9 -- same age as Reke.

If it takes burning JT to get Bosh, then you burn JT. Bosh is all of 2 years older, and has been a 20-10 guy for 5 years running now. 1 in 1000 chances that JT could ever even equal that, let alone surpass it. But I would much rather not burn JT unless I had to. He's one of the young leaders of the current squad, and if you ever had the luxury of making him your third big he would be a 6th man of the year candidate. Roleplaying defensive center 25-30min, Bosh 36 min, JT off bench 25-30 minutes could be outstanding, if you could somehow bring it about. JT could play all out, not worry about fouls, overwhelm bench bigs with energy and hustle.

Getting Bosh and keeping JT would be ideal because as you say JT as a 3rd big off the bench is a massive luxury. He can still get his minutes and not worry too much about fouling out.

Add a defensive C to play his role, clean the glass, play some D and block a couple of shots and its an ideal combination.

For example

Gortat
Bosh
Greene
Garcia
Evans

JT
Casspi
Beno

Thats a pretty solid 8 man rotation going forward. Scrappy, long, athletic and nice blend of offence and defence.

Now if you find a way to burn Beno's contract in return for a PG that plays both ways and provides energy off the bench, all the better.

 

[Kingster]

You don't have many choices with players at that level. And you need players of that level to win big. They just have a rotting softness sickness up in Toronto that was macthed perhaps only by our own until this season. Give Bosh a fresh start, on a team going places, and he could get better. He alreayd took the next step on the glass, and you can't ignore a 24 and 12 guy no matter the warts.

Maybe that "rotting softness sickness" has Bosh at the core of it. He is their leader after all. He's leading them as one of the softest teams in the NBA that is playing considerably below .500. I don't want to add rotting softness to the Kings team. BEEN THERE. DONE THAT. OVER AND OUT. Don't be seduced by stats.


.

 

[ParniValjak]

Maybe that "rotting softness sickness" has Bosh at the core of it. He is their leader after all. He's leading them as one of the softest teams in the NBA that is playing considerably below .500. I don't want to add rotting softness to the Kings team. BEEN THERE. DONE THAT. OVER AND OUT. Don't be seduced by stats.


.

So where you saying the same thing with KG and the T-wolves?!

One man alone cannot carry a team unless his name is LeBron.