Fire Kenny Natt

Am I the only one who has a problem with Hawes, our future center, starting at power forward? I would much rather see Hawes start at the 5 with Moore at the 4 if need be, and have Jason come in at the 4 so they can start to learn to play together. I'm beyond tired of seeing our players forced out of position to fit a temporary lineup of convenience. Bench Miller, especially if he's going to phone it in anyway and let Spencer start at his rightful position. Build around that and I'd be much happier...

spot on vf dont get me started on the reasons brad should be traded. Heaven forbid them bench miller he would go ape ****. I was hoping for a fight and suspension from him last night. I hope he is gone by then but in march i will be behind the bench again in atlanta. maybe i can get him to go artest on me lol.
 
If the point is that Moore sucks, I think we all know that.

If the point is that our prized #1 draft picks couldn't even beat out this scrub in the starting lineup, what does that say about how underwhelming they have been? Then it's been my point all along - if they can't even beat out this scrub, then they get no sympathy from me.

Where are they not beating him out?? certainly cant be game related.

did you purposly omit the rest of my post regaurding their stats?
 
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Am I the only one who has a problem with Hawes, our future center, starting at power forward? I would much rather see Hawes start at the 5 with Moore at the 4 if need be, and have Jason come in at the 4 so they can start to learn to play together. I'm beyond tired of seeing our players forced out of position to fit a temporary lineup of convenience. Bench Miller, especially if he's going to phone it in anyway and let Spencer start at his rightful position. Build around that and I'd be much happier...

Totally agree. For what it's worth, I really have a sense when those two play together that they like playing together and they feel comfortable playing together. They know that they are the future going forward. It's got to be strange for them to be caught in no-man's-land with this current situation. I really wonder how much of this vet vs. youngin thing is actually affecting their performance on the court.
 
If the point is that Moore sucks, I think we all know that.

If the point is that our prized #1 draft picks couldn't even beat out this scrub in the starting lineup, what does that say about how underwhelming they have been? Then it's been my point all along - if they can't even beat out this scrub, then they get no sympathy from me.

Who is to say he's not... It almost seems like Natt is just going with what he's familiar with still and that's what Theus' rotation was... Just another way to look at it
 
Hey VF this is for you and players at their position

Jason Thompson had 4 games as a the starting PF when Mikki was out his stats

14pts 8.5reb 2blks 1ast

Spencer had 5 games as the starting C now mid you this was the first 5 games of the season so cut him a little slack.

12.6pts 8reb 2blks 1.6ast

Now that is the stats in all the games that JT and Spence have started at their natural position.

What are Brad and Mikki's career stats again???

Oh yeah

Mikki
6pts 4reb. 0.7ast 0.6blks

Brad (mind you Brad had 2 allstar years)

12.1pts 7.8reb 3ast 0.8 blocks

Somebody again tell me how are Mikki and Brad beating them out for the starting jobs?????? somebody please.
 
beb0p said:
I can stomach a 40+ pts loss. What I can't stomach are fans who say, Just give the youngsters 35 mins regardless of whether they've earned it. As if they are plants and PT is water. Sorry, but players get better by practicing, not by playing in games. At this point, games are merely a gauge to what weakness they need to address and how far they're from starting. And the verdict thus far is that they're not far off, but they're not there yet.

No one is saying, give the youngsters 35 minutes a game. On certain nights, maybe, if their having a good night and making a difference out there. But what your doing is taking the issue to the extreme with the 35 minutes. Its one thing to have a philosophical approach to developing young players. Its another thing to lock yourself into it. For every HOF player you mention that worked his way into the starting lineup, I can name you one that started from the get go. Neither one of us will prove anything by doing so.

The British lost the revolutionary war because they locked themselves into fighting the same way they always fought. March in a straight line and get the hell shot out of you. Winners think outside the box. Their flexable. They adjust to the situation. They just don't do things, because this is the way its always been done.

If a rookie is as good or better than the starter, you don't sit him on the bench, because thats the way its always been done. Shaq didn't sit on the bench. Neither did Akeem or Wilt, etc. I'm not comparing Hawes and Thompson with those players. But I can compare them with Moore and Miller. To say that Hawes is stinking right now simply isn't true. As a matter of fact, in the first quarter in which he played 6 minutes, he was the best defensive player on the floor. I will agree thats not saying much, considering how badly Miller and Moore were playing.

I would bet you a dollar to a doughnut, that if you were to give Thompson 35 minutes in one game and Moore 35 minutes in another game, that Thompsons points and rebound numbers will far better than Moore's. He won't be as pretty as Moore, but the results will be better. But more than that, he'll get better. He'll learn. Your already looking at the finnished product with Moore. He's as good as he's going to get, and, Thompson is already better on pure athletic ability and some college experience.

I will agree that some players need a close reign. They come in thinking their great from the get go, and the last thing you need to do is fertilize their ego. But Hawes and Thompson are hard workers that hate to lose. They're self motivated, and harder on themselves than anyone else could be. Work with them, but give them their lead and let them run.
 
You didn't have to go with Shaq or Wilt. could have been Okafor, Webber, Howard, Horford etc.........
 
Where are they not beating him out?? certainly cant be game related.

did you purposly omit the rest of my post regaurding their stats?

Hawes did for a little while and he got the starting job, but he has since lost it.

But the point is not merely, barely, just beating out Mikki Moore. Com'on we've got to have higher standard than that. Somewhere many PFs around the league from Kevin Love to Ike Diogu are thinking if they're on the Kings, they would have won this job before breakfast.

And I'm also picking on Shelden Williams and Kenny Thomas. We have four guys not name Mikki who can play PF, and none of them can beat out Mikki Moore. Yes, there's something wrong with this picture.
 
Show me where Mikki is beating anybody out? have you not seen any of the stats I posted?? Are you dead set on retraction that you will fight this to the end that Mikki Moore is beating out all these guys?? this season Mikki averages 4pts 4reb do you not think either Jason or Spencer can do better than that? In fact they are.
 
We really need to rid ourselves of brad miller, yea I know thats obvious.

The thing is, If we finally deal miller I think it could have the "straw that broke the camels back" effect and FINALLY enter us into the rebuild. It sucks it took soo long but it is what it is. Without miller I think Moore loses his minutes, Miller is the last vet on this team with any talent at all, I'd love to trade mikki but that isnt going to happen ..

What makes me a little upset is that today in the Bee someone wrote that the interest in brad miller has been "lukewarm". I mention this because of the reports that came out a few weeks ago that said we could land Gerald Wallace for Brad.. why the hell arent we doing that trade?? seriously. Wallace is young and still has the potential to get better .. he's probly the best sacramento can do right now, especially for miller who is clogging up the center spot .. If this rumor was true, I cant think of ONE reason not to pull the trigger.

so what if we have garcia, martin and salmons at the 2/3 .. would it be better to give those guys more minutes or give hawes and thompson minutes? I think we know what he have with our 2's and 3's.

heres a thought that just popped into my head - Salmons/Garcia/ Wallace is a pretty good defensive trio at the 2/3 .. maybe martin is the person to deal here .. him and maybe thompson or greene or hawes for an all star big on a bad team ( bosh?) ? .. just thinking out loud here ..
 
Since you brought it up Love and Diogu don't have stats as good as JT and Spencer. You say Spencer lost it? Lost what he hit a slump and in that slump averged better numbers than the best Mikki has EVER had. Do you understand that or are you ingnoring it to proceed with you own agenda. An agenda in which I can't figure out.
 
Show me where Mikki is beating anybody out? have you not seen any of the stats I posted?? Are you dead set on retraction that you will fight this to the end that Mikki Moore is beating out all these guys?? this season Mikki averages 4pts 4reb do you not think either Jason or Spencer can do better than that? In fact they are.

I never said Moore beat anybody out. Moore doesn't beat people out, real players get in funk and the coach turns to Moore as a last resort; that's what it has always been.

Moore is like this big heavy brick dropped on top of a piece of $500 dollar bill, if you want the money, you need to move the brick and get it. And so far, no one on the Kings has enough strength to move that brick. That's what this is. No one on the Kings has the moxy to say: Mover over skinny man, I'm taking the starting job from you and I'm going to keep it!
 
all it takes is one thing for Kenny Natt to do to shut me and alot of people up. Start Hawes and Thompson for lets say.........3 games in a row. If the look totally worse than the other starting frontcourt then I will be ok with them getting 20 min or so off the bench. BUT if they look better or even the same then why in the hell not start them the rest of the year.
 
Since you brought it up Love and Diogu don't have stats as good as JT and Spencer. You say Spencer lost it? Lost what he hit a slump and in that slump averged better numbers than the best Mikki has EVER had. Do you understand that or are you ingnoring it to proceed with you own agenda. An agenda in which I can't figure out.

What you can't figure out is that it can't possibly be easier for an NBA power forward when all that's between him and the starting job is Mikki Moore.

You can bust out all the stats you want, but the truth still remains: Hawes lost his starting job because he played poorly. This isn't about Moore, Moore is just some scrub occupying the spot until Hawes or JT is ready. This is about Hawes/JT not being able to do the easiest thing for an NBA 4 - beat out a career scrub. You want to know stats? While Hawes shot 25% during that stretch Moore shot 75%. What does that say? Nothing but the fact that Hawes was in a slump and he deservedly lost the starting job. That's not to say I don't think he should be inserted back into the starting lineup given how poorly the vets played, but that's just winning by default when he needed to stand up and really beat out Moore like he's capable of.
 
I will agree that some players need a close reign. They come in thinking their great from the get go, and the last thing you need to do is fertilize their ego. But Hawes and Thompson are hard workers that hate to lose. They're self motivated, and harder on themselves than anyone else could be. Work with them, but give them their lead and let them run.

Actually, I'd say the Kings are thinking outside of the box. Playing JT at SF is thinking outside of the box. Playing Hawes at PF is thinking outside of the box. The point is, the British lost the battle because they tried to apply the same tactic to a different environment; however, we're not in a different environment and the same tactic has worked many times over the years.

I think deep down you and I are thinking along the same line.

I would bet you a dollar to a doughnut, that if you were to give Thompson 35 minutes in one game and Moore 35 minutes in another game, that Thompsons points and rebound numbers will far better than Moore's. He won't be as pretty as Moore, but the results will be better.
Actually it depends on who JT faces. When JT and Hawes are playing against slower, smaller and/or less athletic guys, they rock. When they play against guys with similar or better abilities, they usually suck. And that's the root of the problem. If you give JT 35 mins against Dwight Howard and Moore 35 mins against Ryan Gomnes, Moore win this battle. And that's why I think the coach keeps turning to the vets: the kids just plain suck on some nights.

And that also goes to the point about the kids not being able to beat out Moore. They would look great against lesser players only to look terrible against the good players. The next step in their evolution is to perform better against the elite. I think once they can hang with (or at least look somewhat respectable against) the best players, they will be given starter mins.

Now, perhaps the youngsters just simply need more experience facing the top tier big men. But I think the problem goes deeper, Hawes and JT's lack of strength and JT's lack of a left hand are hurting them and those are not things you fix in games. Thus, you can give them all the mins in the world, but the flaws will still be there until they correct them in the gym.
 
We can waive all the stat sheets around until the cows come home, but both coaches (Theus and now Natt) say that Moore brings many "intangible" things to the table that, apparently, the rookies can't compete with.

For example, one thing that doesn't show up in the stats is leaving your man in the post to run blindly up to the 3 point line to set a weak pick leaving the paint defense free. Who needs scoring, rebounding and defensivef stats when we have all of these priceless "intangibles" that can't be measured? :rolleyes:

In fairness, I did go overboard on the sarcasm. I'm sure Mikki has some redeeming "intangibles" that the coaches see that I don't, and that the inexperiences rookies don't have yet. But..that opens up another can of worms.
 
were there any cases of a team firing 2 coaches in a same season??? yes we are that miserable...
I wonder who named him a coach??? Maloofs or Petrie???
 
Actually, I'd say the Kings are thinking outside of the box. Playing JT at SF is thinking outside of the box. Playing Hawes at PF is thinking outside of the box. The point is, the British lost the battle because they tried to apply the same tactic to a different environment; however, we're not in a different environment and the same tactic has worked many times over the years.

I think deep down you and I are thinking along the same line.


Actually it depends on who JT faces. When JT and Hawes are playing against slower, smaller and/or less athletic guys, they rock. When they play against guys with similar or better abilities, they usually suck. And that's the root of the problem. If you give JT 35 mins against Dwight Howard and Moore 35 mins against Ryan Gomnes, Moore win this battle. And that's why I think the coach keeps turning to the vets: the kids just plain suck on some nights.

And that also goes to the point about the kids not being able to beat out Moore. They would look great against lesser players only to look terrible against the good players. The next step in their evolution is to perform better against the elite. I think once they can hang with (or at least look somewhat respectable against) the best players, they will be given starter mins.

Now, perhaps the youngsters just simply need more experience facing the top tier big men. But I think the problem goes deeper, Hawes and JT's lack of strength and JT's lack of a left hand are hurting them and those are not things you fix in games. Thus, you can give them all the mins in the world, but the flaws will still be there until they correct them in the gym.

With Moore averagng 4pts 4reb Exactly how many battles has he won?

Oh in the 4 games Thompson started at PF and averaged 14pts 8.5reb and 2 blks his 4 opposing PF's were Gasol, Aldridge, West, and Arthur. Thats a pretty diverse linup giving you alot of things you would face all year. BTW we beat New Orleans in that stretch

I think you are just throwing comments out there without beins able to base them on anything. Like saying JT would suck against faster PF and he only rocks when playing slower players.

I enjoy crossing facts back and forth with you. But when you start saying stuff that is totally untrue and unfounded and passing it off as fact its hard to compete with lies. Always has been. At least earlier we all could tell it was your opinion now your just reaching.
 
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Give Hawes more time, put him on the starting 5. Chuck Moore onto the bench. We have to give more time to our rookies. They need all the experience they can get before we get say a #1 or #2 draft pick in one or two years.
 
beb0p said:
Now, perhaps the youngsters just simply need more experience facing the top tier big men. But I think the problem goes deeper, Hawes and JT's lack of strength and JT's lack of a left hand are hurting them and those are not things you fix in games. Thus, you can give them all the mins in the world, but the flaws will still be there until they correct them in the gym.

Look, were just going to have to agree to disagree. When we start talking about lack of strength and leaving Moore out of the equation, I think its time to stop. I'm simply talking about playing time and situations where I would like to see some. Your talking about credibility and pecking order.

I would like to see the same standard applied to everyone on the team. If a vet playes badly, sit him down. I've seen Miller out there with no apparent desire showing, and he continues to play. If this were the Kings of old, I would be more tolerant of such things. But this is not the Kings of old. This is that different environment that the British walked into and got their heads handed to them.

No offense, but, you sound like the captain of a sinking ship who still wants the brass polished and the decks sanded as we go down. How about fixing the hole in the deck.:cool:
 
No offense, but, you sound like the captain of a sinking ship who still wants the brass polished and the decks sanded as we go down. How about fixing the hole in the deck.:cool:

LOL. That's funny. Sinking ship, that's a good one.

The hole is being fixed. It's being fixed right now as we speak, and this ship is not going to sink. What we need now is for the passengers (the fans) to be patient and let the crew (coaches) do their jobs, not yelling from the sideline on the proper way to fix the hole; or fire the crew when the hole is not fixed to their liking.
 
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With Moore averagng 4pts 4reb Exactly how many battles has he won?

Oh in the 4 games Thompson started at PF and averaged 14pts 8.5reb and 2 blks his 4 opposing PF's were Gasol, Aldridge, West, and Arthur. Thats a pretty diverse linup giving you alot of things you would face all year. BTW we beat New Orleans in that stretch

I think you are just throwing comments out there without beins able to base them on anything. Like saying JT would suck against faster PF and he only rocks when playing slower players.


What are you talking about? I was talking the JT and Hawes' play in their ENTIRETY! I'm not just talking about those four games where JT started. Where did I ever say JT or Hawes didn't have good games?
 
I am with Entity on this one.. Start Hawes and Thompson for a few games and see where we are with them... If they suck worse than Miller and Moore than put them back in the starting lineup. If not than so long Moore/Miller.

Natt has been pretty dumb when it comes to rotation so far. Some say he needs to get used to what rotation to use.. Well if he doesn't know the players by now (being an assistant) then he shouldn't have been given the job.
 
Hawes is hurt. He's got an abdominal strain, which can be very painful and slow to heal. So maybe just maybe Natt knew something some of you armchair coaches didn't know.

:rolleyes:
 
Actually, I'd say the Kings are thinking outside of the box. Playing JT at SF is thinking outside of the box. Playing Hawes at PF is thinking outside of the box. The point is, the British lost the battle because they tried to apply the same tactic to a different environment; however, we're not in a different environment and the same tactic has worked many times over the years.

I think deep down you and I are thinking along the same line.

Actually it depends on who JT faces. When JT and Hawes are playing against slower, smaller and/or less athletic guys, they rock. When they play against guys with similar or better abilities, they usually suck. And that's the root of the problem. If you give JT 35 mins against Dwight Howard and Moore 35 mins against Ryan Gomnes, Moore win this battle. And that's why I think the coach keeps turning to the vets: the kids just plain suck on some nights.

And that also goes to the point about the kids not being able to beat out Moore. They would look great against lesser players only to look terrible against the good players. The next step in their evolution is to perform better against the elite. I think once they can hang with (or at least look somewhat respectable against) the best players, they will be given starter mins.

Now, perhaps the youngsters just simply need more experience facing the top tier big men. But I think the problem goes deeper, Hawes and JT's lack of strength and JT's lack of a left hand are hurting them and those are not things you fix in games. Thus, you can give them all the mins in the world, but the flaws will still be there until they correct them in the gym.

I wrote about this interesting possibility by saying
"Step 7: Spencer hawes at the 3"

This idea is of JT at the three is kinda irresponsible. Hawes is < JasonThompson in regards to rebounding, therefor it makes more sense to have Hawes fill the 3 spot on offense and have JT take the SF on D. but to have JT on the perimeter on offense is irresposible imo. Greene should be playing on the perimeter(above the arc) before thompson. Thompson fits the PF fairly well, i wouldn't move him too far from that position. Hawes has a skillset that might demand exploratory experimentation.
 
I am with Entity on this one.. Start Hawes and Thompson for a few games and see where we are with them... If they suck worse than Miller and Moore than put them back in the starting lineup. If not than so long Moore/Miller.

Natt has been pretty dumb when it comes to rotation so far. Some say he needs to get used to what rotation to use.. Well if he doesn't know the players by now (being an assistant) then he shouldn't have been given the job.

On the subject of rotation, Natt doesn't seem to have any "fun". You know what i mean. Like when....and i hate to do this again....When Phil Jackson starts Luke Walton. That is straight up and down bad, on paper, when you could start Kobe/Odom/Radmonovic/Vujacic at the same spot. But, because of the "fun" factor, it works. Natt is being trapped by the same psycological pitfalls in which theus succumbed.
 
On the subject of rotation, Natt doesn't seem to have any "fun". You know what i mean. Like when....and i hate to do this again....When Phil Jackson starts Luke Walton. That is straight up and down bad, on paper, when you could start Kobe/Odom/Radmonovic/Vujacic at the same spot. But, because of the "fun" factor, it works. Natt is being trapped by the same psycological pitfalls in which theus succumbed.

Fun factor? Well for one the Lakers run their offense entirely different from us. Even when they run iso plays it's for a guy that has twice the talent of our combined team talent... To me whoever they play at the 3 affects the overall spacing in general, with Rad they can get better spacing due to having a 3 pt threat but with Walton they can get easier near the basket shots cos of his "passing"
 
Yes, but you didn't address the psycological pitfalls of not employing "fun". You might have explained why "fun" became effective for the lakers, but not how and why we should try to attain that level of zeal in the starting five. Starting the wrong player never felt so right.
 
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