Everyone doesnt want to trade Martin...but

#31
hammystyle; He turned 26 between games 1 and 2.

It doesn't really matter either way. Martin has a long, long, way to go to match Iverson in career accomplishments, but I still don't get what your point is.
the point is that iverson was on his way to the NBA finals at age 25. leading the league in scoring.

You're not a fan of waiting for people to develop? So if a player isn't automatically great upon entrance to the NBA you don't want a piece of him? That's a very bad tactic. The reason Martin is so exciting is because his development has been so rapid, but its clear there's still room to grow. Its not like he's some guy with tantalizing talent who isn't delivering. 21ppg on 50% shooting is delivering. In fact, Martin is the best example this year of why you should wait for guys to develop. Past examples include: Gary Payton, Steve Nash, Jermaine O'Neal, Scottie Pippen, Kevin Garnett, Tony Parker, Kobe Bryant, Peja Stojakovic and Dirk Nowitzki.

and not 1 player on that list has earned his team a championship ring. ((that's when you need a player like iverson)). you could possibly count kobe though. and you could possibly count pippen. but both of these players were still 2nd options on their teams.
 
#32
kevin martin will not lead this team to a ring. now if your argument is that he will be a piece of a very strong core that would be different. but even if that's the case i can pretty much bet that our best shot at a ring for the next 3 years would be iverson over martin
 
#33
How wrong you are

Not 1 player on that list has earned his team a championship ring? What about Kobe, Pippen, Parker, and Payton. That's about 1/2 the list.

the point is that iverson was on his way to the NBA finals at age 25. leading the league in scoring.




and not 1 player on that list has earned his team a championship ring. ((that's when you need a player like iverson)). you could possibly count kobe though. and you could possibly count pippen. but both of these players were still 2nd options on their teams.
 
#34
Not 1 player on that list has earned his team a championship ring? What about Kobe, Pippen, Parker, and Payton. That's about 1/2 the list.

We're talking FLOOR leaders!! kobe was 2nd option to shaq. pippen was 2nd option to you know who. parker, payton??????????? payton is 40 years old. parker? I dont think SO

an argument can be made that martin may one day be a vital piece of a core on a contending team, but he's not going to give us what iverson can give us Today!!
 
#35
Trade Martin now and you'll will be regretting it for a long time... This kid is going to be a Star, hes just now getting the swagger, watch him in a year from now.
 
Y

y2kings

Guest
#37
Please, everyone here is delusional about how good Kevin Martin is. He's going to be a very good number 2 option but he will never be a dominant player. It will take a lot of work/changing his body/mentality and it something that he just doenst have. Same thing for bibby. No one here is realistic. Kevin Martin can be shutdown with double teams. Let's see how he does against great defensive players like kobe. Read bill simmon's page 2 article about AI. You knew he was going to great when you saw him in college. Kevin has skills but come on he's not going to be a superstar. He just doesnt have it.
 
#38
Please, everyone here is delusional about how good Kevin Martin is. He's going to be a very good number 2 option but he will never be a dominant player. It will take a lot of work/changing his body/mentality and it something that he just doenst have. Same thing for bibby. No one here is realistic. Kevin Martin can be shutdown with double teams. Let's see how he does against great defensive players like kobe. Read bill simmon's page 2 article about AI. You knew he was going to great when you saw him in college. Kevin has skills but come on he's not going to be a superstar. He just doesnt have it.
First people said Kevin was a horrible draft pick. Then they said he was going to get bounced out of the league. Then they said he wasn't confident enough. Then they said he couldn't be a starter. Now they say he can't be a go-to scorer.

People need to STOP saying what Kevin Martin isn't going to be. We've all been wrong at one time or another, so let's just enjoy how good he is now and hope he gets better.
 
Y

y2kings

Guest
#39
Look, I have no issue with KMART..i really like him as a player and I know he's going to get better. But it's hard to draft shooting guards who score the ball. IT IS difficult to get big man who can dominate the game. That's why Bibby and Martin is not too much to offer for Pau Gasol.
 
#40
the point is that iverson was on his way to the NBA finals at age 25. leading the league in scoring.

and not 1 player on that list has earned his team a championship ring. ((that's when you need a player like iverson)). you could possibly count kobe though. and you could possibly count pippen. but both of these players were still 2nd options on their teams.
You're not making your point very well:
1) If we could trade Martin for a 25 year old Iverson, I think everyone would be pleased. But that's not possible.
2)Iverson hasn't won a championship either. Payton and Nowitzki were the best players on teams that went to the finals just like Iverson. For lead championship guys, the 2004 Pistons were all late bloomers.

kevin martin will not lead this team to a ring. now if your argument is that he will be a piece of a very strong core that would be different. but even if that's the case i can pretty much bet that our best shot at a ring for the next 3 years would be iverson over martin
My arguement was just that just because Iverson was better when he came into the league doesn't mean anything. I gave you a list of late-bloomers, some of whom have been on championship teams and some of whom were better players than Iverson.

Either way trading a young star with a ton of upside for a huge question mark (and there's no denying that) just because hhe went to the finals when he was 25 is not a good idea.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#42
Hmmmm.

Decisions, decisions, decisions...

At what point do I just kill this thread and put it out of its misery?
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#43
The generalized point would be that players rarely take great leaps forward in their game beyond thier early 20's -- that much is certainly true. And while I hate to evoke this name again, we has this same discussion about Peja at about this age. His potential etc. etc. But that rarely happens. Normally a guy pretty much is what he is by his 25th birthday. He may refine it, get a little more clever, may step it up a bit for his prime years, but his game isn't going to magically take on whole new aspects as a rule. That's why the old 4 yr college rookies would often come right into the league and make a big impact, because they already were the players they were going to be.

With that as a backdrop the odds of Kevin Martin ever beign as good as Iverson, or even being worthy of being mentiuoned int he same breath as Iverson, are quite low. That said, there are a couple of countervailing factors here. First, Kevin is no more than a year from having made significant improvements to his game, and just this year has made significant strides in the mental aspects of the game. If we are waiting for him to start doing things he has never done, its likely to be a long cold wait, but thinking he may still be growing at least somwwhat is not beyond the realm of possibility. And second, Iverson is 31. If Iverson is 25 obviously this isn't even a discussion -- you trade two Kevin Martins to get him. But he's 31, and frankly he's never won. You know how many 50 win years A.I. has had in 11 years? One. And that one would have to be the blueprint -- surround him with 100% defenders/hustlers and give it a whirl. But its not like he walks in as a guaranteed title contender. So maybe even if Kevin "only" turns out to be what he is -- a 20ppg secondary weapon type, well maybe you'd rather have that as a solid piece of a long term core rather than an aging star who's never gotten it done. Maybe. At least that's the point of debate.
 
#45
The generalized point would be that players rarely take great leaps forward in their game beyond thier early 20's -- that much is certainly true. And while I hate to evoke this name again, we has this same discussion about Peja at about this age. His potential etc. etc. But that rarely happens. Normally a guy pretty much is what he is by his 25th birthday. He may refine it, get a little more clever, may step it up a bit for his prime years, but his game isn't going to magically take on whole new aspects as a rule. That's why the old 4 yr college rookies would often come right into the league and make a big impact, because they already were the players they were going to be.

With that as a backdrop the odds of Kevin Martin ever beign as good as Iverson, or even being worthy of being mentiuoned int he same breath as Iverson, are quite low. That said, there are a couple of countervailing factors here. First, Kevin is no more than a year from having made significant improvements to his game, and just this year has made significant strides in the mental aspects of the game. If we are waiting for him to start doing things he has never done, its likely to be a long cold wait, but thinking he may still be growing at least somwwhat is not beyond the realm of possibility. And second, Iverson is 31. If Iverson is 25 obviously this isn't even a discussion -- you trade two Kevin Martins to get him. But he's 31, and frankly he's never won. You know how many 50 win years A.I. has had in 11 years? One. And that one would have to be the blueprint -- surround him with 100% defenders/hustlers and give it a whirl. But its not like he walks in as a guaranteed title contender. So maybe even if Kevin "only" turns out to be what he is -- a 20ppg secondary weapon type, well maybe you'd rather have that as a solid piece of a long term core rather than an aging star who's never gotten it done. Maybe. At least that's the point of debate.
Some good points in there.

I agree that potential reaches the point where it has to be actualized and 25 seems as good an age as any. Peja basically stopped progressing about 2-3 years ago.

Martin is still on the upswing and I don't expect him to suddenly become something he can't be, like a guy who can guard Shaq or play like AI. But he's already got such a broad range of offensive skills, I can see him improving within those and becoming an extremely valuable player and certainly a critical core player to build around.
 
#46
Some good points in there.

I agree that potential reaches the point where it has to be actualized and 25 seems as good an age as any. Peja basically stopped progressing about 2-3 years ago.

Martin is still on the upswing and I don't expect him to suddenly become something he can't be, like a guy who can guard Shaq or play like AI. But he's already got such a broad range of offensive skills, I can see him improving within those and becoming an extremely valuable player and certainly a critical core player to build around.
not until he gets in the weight room
 
#47
not until he gets in the weight room
Why? He's not playing linebacker.

He's quick and more weight could slow him down. It's his greater speed that gets him up the court faster than anyone chasing him, or drives him to the hoop to get fouled.

He's strong enough on defense to guard the 2s and even some 3s he's been assigned.
 
#48
i dont see a problem with having a little more bulk. not ripped like david robinson, but strong as kobe used to be back in 2004. martin isnt actually strong enough to gaurd top shooting gaurds. what is he gonna do when he has nothing left? he doesnt have much in his repertoire. sometimes you have to rely on pure strength to get into the paint and beat your defender. jordan had a chronicle of baseline moves. but the guy could also lower his head and drive to the basket on power forwards as strong as shaq.