Evans and Martin, Sacramento's two silent assassins...

[Telemachus]

Some stats for us since we quit going to the playoffs:
06-07
FTA: 1st in NBA
Wins: 34

07-08
FTA: 3rd in NBA
Wins: 38

08-09
FTA: 6th in NBA
Wins: 17

I don't think it is fair to only look at how many FTs the Kings took during these seasons. While it is strange that the Kings only won 34 games 06-07 while shooting over 350 more FTs than their opponents, the same is not true in the following 2 seasons. In 07-08, the Kings shot 15 fewer FTs than their opponents. The following season (08-09), the Kings' opponents shot just over 300 more FTs. They may have been 6th in FT attempts, but still gave up more than they shot.

 

[Bricklayer]

I don't think it is fair to only look at how many FTs the Kings took during these seasons. While it is strange that the Kings only won 34 games 06-07 while shooting over 350 more FTs than their opponents, the same is not true in the following 2 seasons. In 07-08, the Kings shot 15 fewer FTs than their opponents. The following season (08-09), the Kings' opponents shot just over 300 more FTs. They may have been 6th in FT attempts, but still gave up more than they shot.

In other words;

06-07 Kings shoot ton of FTs, opponents shoot less, Kings lose.
07-08 Kings shoot ton of FTs, opponents shoot same, Kings lose
08-09 Kings shoot ton of FTs, opponents shoot more, Kings lose

Summed up: Kings shoot ton of FTs, Kings lose. Flopping to the line is NOT a winning strategy. It is irrelevant. Lauding it, worrying about it, featuring it, is just flying in the face of all the results we have seen.

P.S. I'm not prepared to extend the argument to the natural conclusion the results could lead you to -- that flopping to the line actually causes you to lose. That is not necessarily so, unless the soft flopping mentality and the players who carry it and are always looking to be bailed out are in fact be too soft to win.

 

[VF21]

I think the only real conclusion is that during 06-07, 07-08, and 08-09... Kings lose.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Evans and Martin could work .. I dont think people are giving Martin enough credit on offense. Ive read alot about Martins ability to go to the line, by flop or by foul but thats not all he can do.

Martin gets to the line because thats his best 1 on 1 move, he uses that quick first step and takes an off balance jumper or runner and leans in to get the call... Just remember that Kmart is also a really good shooter. The one apparent PG skill Evans has is the drive and kick, and I can see this doing wonders for Martins game. He can shoot the three if he's open, but also using that quick first step he can blow by the recovering defender and shoot a mid range J.

Martin really has been forced to play offense with the ball in his hands, and he has done a pretty good job considering he doesnt have a great handle. I think he can be a better player if he plays like Rip Hamilton or Ray Allen, running off of picks and having other players set him up so he doesnt have to dribble a ton and just focus on one or two dribbles ( thats where he is his quickest ) or spot up shots.


I know I didnt tackle the ball handling issue Evans has, Martin cant help him there and that will be an issue ..

Truth be told, Garcia is probly the best 'fit' for this team at the 2 while Evans is in there, good shooter, decent handle/playmaker and much better defender than Martin, not saying it should happen but he complements Evans better.

 

[kingsnation]

I'm just really excited to have someone sharing our backcourt with Kevin that has the potential to make Kevin better. I can't wait to see what having a guy like Reke will do for Kevin's stats.

This will take pressure off Kevin, not only to be a 25 ppg scorer, but to not HAVE TO carry the entire offense.

 

[vikinginferno]

I'm just really excited to have someone sharing our backcourt with Kevin that has the potential to make Kevin better. I can't wait to see what having a guy like Reke will do for Kevin's stats.

This will take pressure off Kevin, not only to be a 25 ppg scorer, but to not HAVE TO carry the entire offense.

Well I think Kevin's ppg might go down, but his shooting % will very likely go up.

 

[Warhawk]

I think the only real conclusion is that during 06-07, 07-08, and 08-09... Kings lose.

Well played.

 

[HighTopKicks]

whether its a true princeton offense or some sort of hybrid it will still be a motion offense with tons of passing and cutting. that favors 4 of our 5 starters, our coach, assistant coach, fans, etc... the one outsider being our pg... his ball handling and slashing is no longer an asset if the offense is flowing. so why would we change our offense just to fit one player?

i cant say what would or wouldnt fit in terms of the offense until we see what the final roster looks like. if it remains the same we will suck no matter what offense is set up. we could run the triangle and still suck. oddly enough we do have the right kind of players for the triangle. outside of our pg's 3pt shooting.... though i guess beno would be the best fit for that.

I believe your off base on the triangle. The Triangle is a 3 on 3 game played on one side of the floor, with one of the other players at the top of the circle and the last player on the weak side below the FT line. The 3 players in the triangle use screens and picks to free one of the 3 for a cut to the basket or to get to an open area for a midrange jumper. The 3pt shot usual come from one of the other 2 players when their man leaves to help or double team the player with the ball.

So, Evans would be the perfect fit for the triangle. Because of his size and ability to cut to the basket, he could screen say Martins man to free Martin. Or, have his man screened, allowing him to cut to the rim. If his man gets help on him, then either Hawes or Martin is freed up for the 3. A Triangle Offense would be perfect for Martin, Evans & either Hawes or JT.

Evans advantage to beat his man off the dribble wouldn't be lose in a motion offense. A motion offense works to offset a players inablity to create his own shot. So, a motion offense allows other players to gain the same advantage that Evans has on his own. Defenses won't be able to key on Evans, since the other players like Martin, Casspi, & JT will be a threat to attack the rim. And, if the other team is forced to play us straight up, then Reke only has his man to beat.

 

[HighTopKicks]

Evans and Martin could work .. I dont think people are giving Martin enough credit on offense. Ive read alot about Martins ability to go to the line, by flop or by foul but thats not all he can do.

Martin gets to the line because thats his best 1 on 1 move, he uses that quick first step and takes an off balance jumper or runner and leans in to get the call... Just remember that Kmart is also a really good shooter. The one apparent PG skill Evans has is the drive and kick, and I can see this doing wonders for Martins game. He can shoot the three if he's open, but also using that quick first step he can blow by the recovering defender and shoot a mid range J.

Martin really has been forced to play offense with the ball in his hands, and he has done a pretty good job considering he doesnt have a great handle. I think he can be a better player if he plays like Rip Hamilton or Ray Allen, running off of picks and having other players set him up so he doesnt have to dribble a ton and just focus on one or two dribbles ( thats where he is his quickest ) or spot up shots.


I know I didnt tackle the ball handling issue Evans has, Martin cant help him there and that will be an issue ..

Truth be told, Garcia is probly the best 'fit' for this team at the 2 while Evans is in there, good shooter, decent handle/playmaker and much better defender than Martin, not saying it should happen but he complements Evans better.

I don't think last years Martin is the Martin we'll see this year. With healthy legs, Martin will be a better defender and a more aggressive scorer. What made Martin such an efficient scorer was his ability to know when to finish at the rim or when to pull up for a short jumper. His court vision and his legs let him see whether or not the defense was in position to stop him. If they could, then he'd stop short, elevate and put up a short jumper and possibly draw an and 1. If the couldn't stop him, then his legs got him high and an easy dunk. The injured ankle caused a major modification to his game.

 

[fnordius]

whether its a true princeton offense or some sort of hybrid it will still be a motion offense with tons of passing and cutting. that favors 4 of our 5 starters, our coach, assistant coach, fans, etc...

How? Our assist/TO ratio, with last year's roster, was 1.28:1. We unloaded 7 of the top 8 players we had in terms of A/TO ratio (BJax, Douby, Solomon, McCants, Brown, Miller, Salmons) and are benching the 8th (Udrih). Garcia's is 1.34, Nocioni's is 1.05, and the rest of the team's range from 0.64 to 0.95. In other words, our current roster turns the ball over significantly more often than they make assists. How in the world would tons of passing be a good idea, if it'll mean a 30 TO game? I could see that working out in a year or two maybe, depending on how quickly our guys learn, but in the short term it sounds like a trainwreck to me.

 

[KingsCitizen]

Assists and turnovers can as well be blamed on how the coach is trying to implement as system. We have to take in mind that during those losing season it was Muss/Theus/Natt combo who have a combined number of games as a head coach that is still lower to what Westphal alone had. Plus even their combined winning percentage is still non-comparable to the new coach of this team.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

I hope everybody likes freethrows!

I do if we are shooting them..... and making them.

 

[AriesMar27]

I believe your off base on the triangle. The Triangle is a 3 on 3 game played on one side of the floor, with one of the other players at the top of the circle and the last player on the weak side below the FT line. The 3 players in the triangle use screens and picks to free one of the 3 for a cut to the basket or to get to an open area for a midrange jumper. The 3pt shot usual come from one of the other 2 players when their man leaves to help or double team the player with the ball.

So, Evans would be the perfect fit for the triangle. Because of his size and ability to cut to the basket, he could screen say Martins man to free Martin. Or, have his man screened, allowing him to cut to the rim. If his man gets help on him, then either Hawes or Martin is freed up for the 3. A Triangle Offense would be perfect for Martin, Evans & either Hawes or JT.

Evans advantage to beat his man off the dribble wouldn't be lose in a motion offense. A motion offense works to offset a players inablity to create his own shot. So, a motion offense allows other players to gain the same advantage that Evans has on his own. Defenses won't be able to key on Evans, since the other players like Martin, Casspi, & JT will be a threat to attack the rim. And, if the other team is forced to play us straight up, then Reke only has his man to beat.

that would be true if evans were kobe bryant...but he isnt. and thats also why players like famar get little playing time with the lakers. its the same problem martin had with adelman, they all want to attack the basket when all we need for them is to stand still and wait for the ball to be passed to him. evans' ball handling and ability to attack the basket would be negated in the triangle especially since he cant shoot from 3 to spread the floor. players would just sag off of him to help defend on other players like martin.

i live in los angeles and all of my roommates are laker fans, i watched damn near every single laker game for the last 3 or 4 seasons. a player like evans wouldnt do that well in the triangle. but almost everyother player on the kings could be plugged into the lakers offense and it would work. martin and garcia could easily replace all of the lakers reserve swingmen. thompson and hawes wouldnt have any real problems playing behind the lakers bigmen. hell hawes could start at center on the lakers and they wouldnt miss a beat. evans would be lost on the bench just like ariza in his first year there before he got injured. he cant shoot threes so he wouldnt be able to help spread the floor. his drive and dish wouldnt be as effective in the offense unless he was kobe.

lets not get started with the turnovers. there is a reason why the lakers bench mob doesnt run the triangle... farmar and brown cant play within it. it goes against their nature as players, evans would have the same problem. he's good but its just not his game unless he is kobe and can play better than the triangle. evans isnt that good....

 

[Kingster]

It seems certain that we're going to play something which isn't a pure Princeton (which has never been attempted in the NBA, and probably never will be), but which is in most ways similar. Otherwise, it's pretty hard to explain why we drafted Hawes and Evans, why JR and the Maloofs have been talking up that type of game, why Coachie's back and working with Hawes and JT on their three pointers. And Westphal fits in well with that, too. I can see nothing at all to make me think that's not the path that we're headed down.

But the Princeton works with Evans mainly because, in that style of offense, you've really got 5 well-rounded SG/SFs on the court, regardless of whether they're 5'11" or 7'2". Everybody needs to be able to make assists, make long shots, etc. Player specializations, like pass-first PGs, become irrelevant. Evans' chronically low assist/TO ratio isn't very important in a Princetonian offense, because other people will be making most of the assists anyway.

But there are a couple of problems with this, at least in the short term. One is that the Kings are the #28 team in the NBA WRT assist/TO ratio, and the player with the best one by far (Beno) will now be on the bench. Put Evans in his place, and we can expect to have the worst A/TO ratio in the NBA during 2009-10, by a wide margin.

The traditional hole in the middle can be expected to stay, too. Again and again, the FO has shown that they have no interest in defensive bigs, presumably since those are specialized players, and inconsistent with Coachie's style of game. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm really tired of that.

So if I sometimes sound grumpy about our drafting of Evans, it's nothing about him personally, or even his game. I'd be delighted to have him as our SG. But that's not why we got him. I think his acquisition signals a wrong turn for this team, one which can't be corrected without drafting a different PG and changing the playbook to fit.

I don't see it that way at all. You think we draft these players based on the type of offense we want to run? I think we draft them because they are good, and then we design an offense to increase their strengths and mitigate their weaknesses. If Evans is what the Kings org thinks he is, his talent will insure we DON'T run the Princeton offense.

 

[Kingster]

whether its a true princeton offense or some sort of hybrid it will still be a motion offense with tons of passing and cutting. that favors 4 of our 5 starters, our coach, assistant coach, fans, etc... the one outsider being our pg... his ball handling and slashing is no longer an asset if the offense is flowing. so why would we change our offense just to fit one player?

i cant say what would or wouldnt fit in terms of the offense until we see what the final roster looks like. if it remains the same we will suck no matter what offense is set up. we could run the triangle and still suck. oddly enough we do have the right kind of players for the triangle. outside of our pg's 3pt shooting.... though i guess beno would be the best fit for that.

You change your offense to fit your best player. It's that simple. Goodbye Princeton offense.

 

[AriesMar27]

its not like we were winning anyways... but then we would also have to change some of our coaching staff as well... wouldnt be more economical to just keep it as is and see if it works? wait, no that doesnt work... geoff might make a dumb trade for some flexible trade pieces that never get traded.

 

[Chupacabra]

all thats missing from this team is a low post scoring threat and a couple good role players. Actually, this team may already have sufficient role players. Either a low post scoring center or slide Jason Thompson over to the 5 and attain a low post scoring 4. I think this team is closer to becoming competative than people realize.

 

[thelonegunman]

Anybody that doesn't believe that getting to the FT line is a HUGE factor in winning games or at least keeping them close needs some serious help. Sure, the Kings haven't been winning much lately, but it's other facets of the game such as defense and rebounding that have prevented success. The FTA have kept them close in some games and even allowed them to steal a few.

Still not convinced? Just do some basic math.

If the Kings drew 10 fouls on 10 shot attempts (resulting in FT's) and converted a mere 70% of those attempts, they'd score 14 points. (14 of 20)

If the Kings never drew a foul on those 10 attempts, they'd have to convert 7 of the 10 attempts (assuming no 3pt shots) to match what they did at the line.

What do you think is more likely to occur .. shooting 70% from the line or 70% from the field??

Lastly, when guys like Martin are taking a majority of those FTA's, the result is going to be more like 85%.

Point is, the more FTA you get in a game, the more efficient your offense is. That isn't even arguable.

Now, if you can't back that up by playing any defense or rebounding opponents missed shots, then you essentially waste that advantage.

 

[hammystyle]

Anybody that doesn't believe that getting to the FT line is a HUGE factor in winning games or at least keeping them close needs some serious help. Sure, the Kings haven't been winning much lately, but it's other facets of the game such as defense and rebounding that have prevented success. The FTA have kept them close in some games and even allowed them to steal a few.

Still not convinced? Just do some basic math.

If the Kings drew 10 fouls on 10 shot attempts (resulting in FT's) and converted a mere 70% of those attempts, they'd score 14 points. (14 of 20)

If the Kings never drew a foul on those 10 attempts, they'd have to convert 7 of the 10 attempts (assuming no 3pt shots) to match what they did at the line.

What do you think is more likely to occur .. shooting 70% from the line or 70% from the field??

Lastly, when guys like Martin are taking a majority of those FTA's, the result is going to be more like 85%.

Point is, the more FTA you get in a game, the more efficient your offense is. That isn't even arguable.

Now, if you can't back that up by playing any defense or rebounding opponents missed shots, then you essentially waste that advantage.

Actually just taking a cursory look through basketball reference season statistics the past few years and there doesn't look to be much correlation between the FTA rankings and the best teams. Spurs, Cavs, Rockets, Suns, Mavericks, and Hornets have all been below average and near the bottom. Lakers, Celtics, Nuggets, and Magic have been up at the top. I'm sure pace is a factor, but its not a stat that seems to make that much difference overall.

 

[HighTopKicks]

that would be true if evans were kobe bryant...but he isnt. and thats also why players like famar get little playing time with the lakers. its the same problem martin had with adelman, they all want to attack the basket when all we need for them is to stand still and wait for the ball to be passed to him. evans' ball handling and ability to attack the basket would be negated in the triangle especially since he cant shoot from 3 to spread the floor. players would just sag off of him to help defend on other players like martin.

i live in los angeles and all of my roommates are laker fans, i watched damn near every single laker game for the last 3 or 4 seasons. a player like evans wouldnt do that well in the triangle. but almost everyother player on the kings could be plugged into the lakers offense and it would work. martin and garcia could easily replace all of the lakers reserve swingmen. thompson and hawes wouldnt have any real problems playing behind the lakers bigmen. hell hawes could start at center on the lakers and they wouldnt miss a beat. evans would be lost on the bench just like ariza in his first year there before he got injured. he cant shoot threes so he wouldnt be able to help spread the floor. his drive and dish wouldnt be as effective in the offense unless he was kobe.

lets not get started with the turnovers. there is a reason why the lakers bench mob doesnt run the triangle... farmar and brown cant play within it. it goes against their nature as players, evans would have the same problem. he's good but its just not his game unless he is kobe and can play better than the triangle. evans isnt that good....

Maybe you should tell Tex Winters & Phil Jackson that the Triangle doesn't work unless you have Kobe. I assume you don't mean that Jordon couldn't run the Triangle. I watched the Bulls from 1989 to 1998. And, I can tell you that Jordon didn't put up a lot of 3's out of the Triangle. It was guys like Paxton who put up the 3s. Jordon went to the rim or the FT line and put up the short 2. In fact, out of Jordon's 24,500 shot attempts only 1700 came from beyond the 3pt line.

Believe what you want, but I think Hawes, Martin & Evans would do well in the Triangle once they learn the nuances.

 

[Kingsguy881]

Maybe you should tell Tex Winters & Phil Jackson that the Triangle doesn't work unless you have Kobe. I assume you don't mean that Jordon couldn't run the Triangle. I watched the Bulls from 1989 to 1998. And, I can tell you that Jordon didn't put up a lot of 3's out of the Triangle. It was guys like Paxton who put up the 3s. Jordon went to the rim or the FT line and put up the short 2. In fact, out of Jordon's 24,500 shot attempts only 1700 came from beyond the 3pt line.

Believe what you want, but I think Hawes, Martin & Evans would do well in the Triangle once they learn the nuances.

Evans would be the perfect pg for the triangle. Phil likes big pg's that can see over the defense. Not sure what the other guy was saying though. Just look at Ron Harper if you doubt me. Ron was not a great shooter, people didn't think he would be a pg, and his game was predicated on slashing or taking the rock to the hoop.

 

[Kingsguy881]

Evans would be the perfect pg for the triangle. Phil likes big pg's that can see over the defense. Not sure what the other guy was saying though. Just look at Ron Harper if you doubt me. Ron was not a great shooter, people didn't think he would be a pg, and his game was predicated on slashing or taking the rock to the hoop.

I forgot to mention the part where he succeeded, big time, in the triangle.

 

[AriesMar27]

is this newbies attack ariesmar27 week or something? jordan wasnt a pg either... your logic is flawed. he also isnt playing anymore either. ron harper was only a pg for phil jackson if im not mistaken.

 

[fnordius]

I don't see it that way at all. You think we draft these players based on the type of offense we want to run?

I tend to think that we do, yes. You know how Geoff has a certain style of player that he gravitates towards? In this draft, for example, although I thought that Thabeet might develop into a player who would bring stuff to the team that it desperately needs, he is totally NOT Geoff's style, and I never expected us to take a serious look at him. He doesn't have impressive shooting range, much of offensive skills in general, or great ball handling. He is almost the exact opposite of a typical Geoff pick. Hawes is a fine example of what Geoff looks for in a big, and, not coincidentally, also good for a Princeton/Triangle sort of offense. Ditto for Evans, since, with an ideal roster, you can play a Princeton with 2 SGs. The only snag is that most of our roster is far from ideal for that game, without a lot of work on ball handling and passing.

I think we draft them because they are good, and then we design an offense to increase their strengths and mitigate their weaknesses. If Evans is what the Kings org thinks he is, his talent will insure we DON'T run the Princeton offense.

We started playing a modified Princeton because it's what Geoff played when he was a member of Coachie's first college team. Geoff hired Coachie in June 1996, before we had Vlade and Webber and the other players who made it possible for the Kings to play the Princeton well. So, yes, Geoff decided we'd play the Princeton, hired Coachie, then got the players needed to do it. We did not start playing the Princeton because fate handed Geoff players who just happened to be perfect for it. And I think that's exactly the case now.

Why else would we have been talking to Eddie Jordan, who uses the Princeton, well before draft night? We hadn't worked Evans out, or anyone else, so we weren't talking to Eddie because we knew who we were picking. We were talking to Eddie because whoever we picked would be playing something like a Princeton, the offense which JR and the Maloofs were already talking up. And, lo and behold, on draft night we ditched the more conventional PGs in favor of someone who can be expected to do well in a Princeton. Which might be cool, if the current Kings weren't one of the worst ball handling teams in the NBA.

 

[VF21]

is this newbies attack ariesmar27 week or something?

Yes, and quite frankly I'm surprised it took you this long to figure it out.

 

[AriesMar27]

Yes, and quite frankly I'm surprised it took you this long to figure it out.

first it was aots 1000th episode and now this... i feel special now....

 

[Chupacabra]

Why are people argueing that getting to the free throw line isnt important? If you get to the free throw line its usually 2 EASY points. It also causes the opposing team to make adjustments and change what theyre doing. A player or team that has the ability to frequently get to the free throw line is a HUGE asset. Case closed.

 

[Bricklayer]

Case closed.

Well obviously.

That's why we have been one of the top 6 elite FT drawing teams in the league the last 3 years while also being one of the worst teams in the league.

The key is not FTs, it is style of play. If you are the aggressor you probably win, and if you are the aggressor you also probably draw a lot of fouls. And they are good fouls not dependent on the refs -- if the refs quit callng them fouls, if you are the aggressor you will still be slamming inside for hihg percentage shots. Your success is not dependent on how the refs call the game -- you either hit the shot, or get Fts. Either way you win. If on the other hand you are essentially passive and just cheat to get FTs, then you are still going to lose. FTs or not, you are still passive, and passive teams normally lose.

 

[Kingster]

Self-Correcting Mechanism

Actually just taking a cursory look through basketball reference season statistics the past few years and there doesn't look to be much correlation between the FTA rankings and the best teams. Spurs, Cavs, Rockets, Suns, Mavericks, and Hornets have all been below average and near the bottom. Lakers, Celtics, Nuggets, and Magic have been up at the top. I'm sure pace is a factor, but its not a stat that seems to make that much difference overall.

Has anyone considered the possibility of self-correcting mechanism at work here? So, let's say you are a good team, say the Lakers. And your team (or particular player) is known for drawing fouls. Opposing coaches know it. And opposing players know it from their coaches. The same coaches know that the last thing you want to do is foul to put Kobe on the line. So what happens then? Opposing players focus much more on making sure they don't foul. Now obviously sometimes it isn't physically possible to always do that, but it is for a lot of the time. If the priority becomes to not to foul players that are known to draw fouls, then what happens? The fouling goes down. And then what happens after that? More easy scoring opportunities. Players will make the trade off and back off a little to prevent the foul. That makes it easier for the aggressive team to score. That makes it easier to win.

 

[Merdiesel]

all thats missing from this team is a low post scoring threat and a couple good role players. Actually, this team may already have sufficient role players. Either a low post scoring center or slide Jason Thompson over to the 5 and attain a low post scoring 4. I think this team is closer to becoming competative than people realize.

Really?...
Jason Thompson has been getting his **** owned all week at the 5 by the d-league. I'm praying that this last summer league game will be his last time hes at the center position. Thompson is way too soft and lazy on defense to play the 5.