ESPN Article: Second-best O since trade deadline? Kings

[Kingsnbucs1987]

Since when is Tyreke's problem being too big of a PG? I'm not sure where you guys get this stuff from.

His problem is the fact that when he plays PG for any significant time, our offense comes to a screeching halt. Watch any game when Tyreke is at PG and Thornton is at SG. The first pass of the possession won't be made until there are 13 seconds left on the shot clock. Usually it's just to a big out at the 3pt line who hands it back to Tyreke. Now there's 10 seconds left. Tyreke dribbles around and tries to go one on one. If he gets by the guy it works. If he doesn't, now there's 6 seconds left on the clock and he's forced to dump it off to someone who most likely isn't in position to score. Now there are just a few seconds left on the clock and they're forced to just jack up a shot to keep from turning it over. We've seen this happen over and over again. The Tyreke experiment at PG was nice to try out but it's just not going to work. He does not have court vision at all and solely relies on beating his man off the dribble. You can't run an offense around that.

But isn't that the same thing our PG in Thomas does now, run around with the ball and doesn't make a move until late in the clock. People say Reke doesn't have the court vision to play PG, but he can gain it with more time and coaching. How can you expect him to be good at one position if you keep moving him to a different position every year. To average 5 assists through his rookie year, he had to have some court vision to accomplish that cause that team couldn't hit a shot and had no talent at all.

 

[mac]

Since when is Tyreke's problem being too big of a PG? I'm not sure where you guys get this stuff from.

His problem is the fact that when he plays PG for any significant time, our offense comes to a screeching halt. Watch any game when Tyreke is at PG and Thornton is at SG. The first pass of the possession won't be made until there are 13 seconds left on the shot clock. Usually it's just to a big out at the 3pt line who hands it back to Tyreke. Now there's 10 seconds left. Tyreke dribbles around and tries to go one on one. If he gets by the guy it works. If he doesn't, now there's 6 seconds left on the clock and he's forced to dump it off to someone who most likely isn't in position to score. Now there are just a few seconds left on the clock and they're forced to just jack up a shot to keep from turning it over. We've seen this happen over and over again. The Tyreke experiment at PG was nice to try out but it's just not going to work. He does not have court vision at all and solely relies on beating his man off the dribble. You can't run an offense around that.

I can't quite agree with you on this yet. Thing is, when Tyreke's been the main handler with Cousins on the floor he passes it to Cuz very quickly in the post, or runs a pick and roll to decent success. Now when Cousins is off the floor and he's the PG (which tends to be the case because he's usually played at PG in the early 4th as part of Keith Smart's play the whole second half philosophy) he starts the over dribbling thing. Still manages to set guys up a fair bit though, but there's certainly room for improvement. I'm still confident that we will reap long-term success from a coach who bothers to take the time to develop Tyreke at PG/ as the main ball handler

 

[Padrino]

Since when is Tyreke's problem being too big of a PG? I'm not sure where you guys get this stuff from.

His problem is the fact that when he plays PG for any significant time, our offense comes to a screeching halt. Watch any game when Tyreke is at PG and Thornton is at SG. The first pass of the possession won't be made until there are 13 seconds left on the shot clock. Usually it's just to a big out at the 3pt line who hands it back to Tyreke. Now there's 10 seconds left. Tyreke dribbles around and tries to go one on one. If he gets by the guy it works. If he doesn't, now there's 6 seconds left on the clock and he's forced to dump it off to someone who most likely isn't in position to score. Now there are just a few seconds left on the clock and they're forced to just jack up a shot to keep from turning it over. We've seen this happen over and over again. The Tyreke experiment at PG was nice to try out but it's just not going to work. He does not have court vision at all and solely relies on beating his man off the dribble. You can't run an offense around that.

meh. this is the same nonsense that the TYREKE IS NOT A PG!!!!!!!1111!!!!11 crowd have been peddling since his rookie season. but, at this point, it's just completely devoid of merit, particularly given the strides that 'reke has made as a playmaker in the last two seasons, on and off the ball. personally, i don't care which guard position he plays, as long as the player next to him in the backcourt can do the following: move the ball swiftly, hit spot-up jumpers, play passable defense, and generally stay out of the way. in other words, if tyreke is paired with a role player who doesn't have the urge to chuck every other minute, the kings' backcourt has a chance to sustain long term success, and it doesn't matter which guard position he plays in such an instance...

but when 'reke is paired with ball dominant guards like thornton and thomas, of course the offense is going to stall. that's two ball dominant guards in a single backcourt, while demarcus cousins is trying to man down the post as the king who should be dominating the ball most frequently. it's just an unbalanced mess. though he was a weak link, defensively, the kings were much better off when beno udrih was their starting PG, because the guy understood his role. such a player helps his team simply by allowing the most talented players on that team to learn, grow, and thrive. i would have loved to see beno start alongside an improved tyreke evans and an improved demarcus cousins, with a head coach whose got half a brain...

team-building isn't too complicated at the fundamental level. an organization just needs owners who aren't idiots and a GM who isn't sleepwalking through his job. kobe bryant's PG's never played keep-away from the lakers' superior talents because each one has understood the pecking order, and LA's front office has always been smart enough to assign role players to the position. hell, even steve nash is relegated to a minor role in a lakers offense that features kobe bryant in 34-year-old beast mode and dwight howard. will tyreke evans ever be a talent of kobe's caliber? probably not. but, paired with demarcus cousins, the kings have two excellent young players that should catapult this team forward if the organization is intelligent enough to surround them with complementary talent. i've used those two words in conjunction with each other for three years now. acquire talented role players (preferably the kind that accept the notion of defense as part of their profession) to complement cousins and evans, and the kings have a chance to climb in the direction of the playoffs...

 

[ppine]

Evans is too slow with the ball to be a PG. You can try and explain it away, but the Kings offense became potent with faster tempo and Thomas running the point. The trade with the Rockets helped, but the main difference in the starting line-up is the presence of Thomas. I think Evans is fine at SG. I really like seeing Thornton off the bench at the 2.

 

[Padrino]

Evans is too slow with the ball to be a PG. You can try and explain it away, but the Kings offense became potent with faster tempo and Thomas running the point. The trade with the Rockets helped, but the main difference in the starting line-up is the presence of Thomas. I think Evans is fine at SG. I really like seeing Thornton off the bench at the 2.

yeah, and their defense sunk to the absolute bottom of the barrel in damn near all the major categories. you can try and explain it away, but the kings are 30th in points allowed per game at 104.8. let me repeat that: 104.8!!! thomas' size and inability to fight through screens are a part of the team's overall defensive collapse, because that's where interior penetration starts. thomas is not a starting caliber PG because of this deficiency. it can't be overlooked. that doesn't necessarily mean you start evans at the PG, but if the kings are unable to fill that gap in the offseason, i'd certainly give toney douglas a try in the starting PG role long before i handed the keys back to isaiah thomas...

 

[Spike]

Hey, last year we were at 104.4, so that's progress!

Oh, wait...

 

[panda]

[/FONT][/COLOR]"Part of this improvement reflects the change in shot distribution since Patterson arrived in town. Patterson has not only been on fire from behind the arc (14-of-30) but also from midrange, where he’s nailed 54 percent on almost three attempts a game, a big improvement over Robinson, a 31 percent midrange shooter."

All in all it's a pretty solid explanation: Better spacing due to Patterson, shooters running hot, and bringing in guys who haven't been "coached up" by Smart.

That last part made me laugh but I couldn't agree more.

 

[ppine]

The team deserves some credit for the improvement. They play faster now. Thomas is part of the reason, so is the trade and so is Keith Smart. Some people just like to complain all the time. Teams don't get better overnight. You have to celebrate successes and build confidence with them.

The defense stinks now, stunk last year and the year before. Hanging the defense on Thomas is ridiculous. When the Kings play uptempo it gives the other team more possessions.

 

[mac]

The team deserves some credit for the improvement. They play faster now. Thomas is part of the reason, so is the trade and so is Keith Smart. Some people just like to complain all the time. Teams don't get better overnight. You have to celebrate successes and build confinence with them.

So what if we play faster? We played fast at the end of last season too. Look where we are now. Oh that's right, in the same position as a very lousy team. If a fast offense causes you to be the worst team in the league defensively you're not going to get very far. And it's extremely, extremely difficult to both play uptempo and play good D unless you have LeBron James and Dwyane Wade on your team.

 

[UK_King]

People get way too hung up on the term "point guard" IMO.

 

[Spike]

The team deserves some credit for the improvement. They play faster now. Thomas is part of the reason, so is the trade and so is Keith Smart. Some people just like to complain all the time. Teams don't get better overnight. You have to celebrate successes and build confinence with them.

Oh we play faster all right, but as a team, we're doing worse.

 

[Kingster]

But isn't that the same thing our PG in Thomas does now, run around with the ball and doesn't make a move until late in the clock. People say Reke doesn't have the court vision to play PG, but he can gain it with more time and coaching. How can you expect him to be good at one position if you keep moving him to a different position every year. To average 5 assists through his rookie year, he had to have some court vision to accomplish that cause that team couldn't hit a shot and had no talent at all.

No, it's not. IT does get the ball upcourt in a hurry, does get the offense started more quickly, does run a fast break, and does not have a habit of going one on three. This notion that there is some equivalency with IT and Tyreke as a pg is nonsense. Look, Tyreke's played both the 1 and the 2 this year. What more do you want? The evidence is there that when he plays the 1 that it doesn't go very well. And a lot of this has nothing to do with coaching. You can't teach a guy to have a feel for the court on a fast break, or when exactly to go for it on the drive or pull up for for the trailing player. I still keep coming back to the very low lying fruit: If Tyreke Evans can't run a freaking fast break in his 4th year in the NBA, how do you expect him to be the pg going forward?

 

[mac]

No, it's not. IT does get the ball upcourt in a hurry, does get the offense started more quickly, does run a fast break, and does not have a habit of going one on three. This notion that there is some equivalency with IT and Tyreke as a pg is nonsense. Look, Tyreke's played both the 1 and the 2 this year. What more do you want? The evidence is there that when he plays the 1 that it doesn't go very well. And a lot of this has nothing to do with coaching. You can't teach a guy to have a feel for the court on a fast break, or when exactly to go for it on the drive or pull up for for the trailing player. I still keep coming back to the very low lying fruit: If Tyreke Evans can't run a freaking fast break in his 4th year in the NBA, how do you expect him to be the pg going forward?

Yes yes keep harping on the fact that he can't run a fast break when he's proven time and time again that he very well can. As for IT getting the offense started more quickly, if by getting the offense started you mean dribbling around looking for his own shot or just pulling up for a 3 yes, he does get his offense started more quickly. For goodness sake half the guy's passes come when he's pulling up for a shot and the defender challenges him.

 

[Agent23]

No, it's not. IT does get the ball upcourt in a hurry, does get the offense started more quickly, does run a fast break, and does not have a habit of going one on three. This notion that there is some equivalency with IT and Tyreke as a pg is nonsense. Look, Tyreke's played both the 1 and the 2 this year. What more do you want? The evidence is there that when he plays the 1 that it doesn't go very well. And a lot of this has nothing to do with coaching. You can't teach a guy to have a feel for the court on a fast break, or when exactly to go for it on the drive or pull up for for the trailing player. I still keep coming back to the very low lying fruit: If Tyreke Evans can't run a freaking fast break in his 4th year in the NBA, how do you expect him to be the pg going forward?

So what about the times Isaiah Thomas pulls up for a 3 on a fast break. Oh its ok, he has heart.

 

[mac]

So what about the times Isaiah Thomas pulls up for a 3 on a fast break. Oh its ok, he has heart.

Nah, he's young and hasn't had a good coach to teach him so it's not his fault.

 

[rainmaker]

No, it's not. IT does get the ball upcourt in a hurry, does get the offense started more quickly, does run a fast break, and does not have a habit of going one on three. This notion that there is some equivalency with IT and Tyreke as a pg is nonsense. Look, Tyreke's played both the 1 and the 2 this year. What more do you want? The evidence is there that when he plays the 1 that it doesn't go very well. And a lot of this has nothing to do with coaching. You can't teach a guy to have a feel for the court on a fast break, or when exactly to go for it on the drive or pull up for for the trailing player. I still keep coming back to the very low lying fruit: If Tyreke Evans can't run a freaking fast break in his 4th year in the NBA, how do you expect him to be the pg going forward?

What nonsense. Just because you keep repeating fallacies doesn't make them any more true. You're really grabbing at straws here.

Reke can't run a fast break? He's one of the best fast breaking, transition talents in the league. Reke at times is unstoppable in transition. Does he make poor decisions at times? Yes. He's also still only 23. Yet for you to repeatedly act like Reke simply can't run a fastbreak and continue to highlight his mistakes, while ignoring fastbreaks which end in a contested pullup 3pt brick from IT shows your agenda, as if we didn't already know.

And IT gets the offense started more quickly? What offense? The one which often ends in IT forcing a terrible shot? Or the one where he commonly dribbles in circles for 10 secs, then just gives it to Cuz for a contested 20 footer? That offense? Lol. The same offense IT is running so efficiently and effectively he can't even average 4 assists, while Reke was up close to 6 per game as a rookie, with less talent?

It's funny. IT at 24 yrs old at sub 4 assists per game= great PG in your mind. Reke at 20 yrs old at near 6 assists per game with far less talent around him= terrible PG. Only from Kingster do we see such sound logic. But, you also said yesterday having more talent than another player is "meaningless".

As for Reke not being able to run fastbreaks:

Could keep going but what's the point. You've recently changed your posting style to more what I call "drive-by" posting, where you're not actually looking to have a conversation. You come in, tell everyone how bad Reke is, then disappear and don't respond to posters who respond to you. You hide, then do it all over again in another thread. There's a name for that, but I've been told I need to be more respectful, so I'll say no more.

 

[Padrino]

it really is amazing the lengths some people will go to when attempting to decry the team's best talents, and all in favor of inferior talents. i've not had enough experience with other fanbases to know if this is a league-wide phenomenon, but in sacramento, it's certainly as bad as it could be anywhere else, and has been since chris webber was initially acquired. boggles the mind, truly...

 

[UK_King]

The "offence" is "designed" by the coach.

Just saying.

I watched the first quarter again just now and IT barely handles the ball at.all. He just throws it ahead to Reke or Salmons to start the "offence" (except the first play of the game, which was to hit cuz at the high post)

He had three "fast breaks" where he scored twice and hit cuz in super deep position to score.

Reke would be my point guard all.day.long as I've said many times, even started that thread after about three games saying we needed him there, but some of things said about IT are borderline pathological at this point IMO. I like the guy (as a person) and I'm actually hoping we do trade him because I'm so bored of the IT "debate"