Enough is enough..

[bajaden]

Me too. That we can agree on.

I will confess that I wanted Hawes all along. At the time, I would have taken him over Noah. He was simply more skilled than Noah, and I felt the Kings needed a skilled player. Comparing their growth is where it becomes complicated. When you think about it. Applying Noahs skills was a much easier job than Hawes. Noah wasn't know as an offensive player. He defended and grabbed rebounds. Most of his offense was garbage cleanup. Those were the things he was asked to improve on. And he obviously has. He's still a one deminsional player, but he's become very good at the things he does well.

Hawes on the other hand has been jerked around somewhat. Reggie wanted him to be an offensive player. He encouraged shooting wide open three's. He seemed to like Hawes floating on the perimiter. I've no idea what Natt asked of Hawes. I'm not sure Hawes does either. But now Westphal is asking him to become more of a defensive player. I believe it was Westphal that said, If your standing behind the three point line and your always wide open, there's probably a reason.

My point is, that I believe that Hawes growth has been slowed by the inconsistancy of whats been asked of him. Reggie did it to Thompson also. He asked him to play PF, Center, and SF. Its hard enough for a rookie coming into the league without jerking them from one position to another.

Anyway. There is no excuse for bad play. Especially unforced turnovers. They just drive me nuts. But to apply understanding to a situation is not the same thing as excusing it. Too much kneejerk reaction on the fourm.. Present company excused...

 

[Kingsguy881]

I will confess that I wanted Hawes all along. At the time, I would have taken him over Noah. He was simply more skilled than Noah, and I felt the Kings needed a skilled player. Comparing their growth is where it becomes complicated. When you think about it. Applying Noahs skills was a much easier job than Hawes. Noah wasn't know as an offensive player. He defended and grabbed rebounds. Most of his offense was garbage cleanup. Those were the things he was asked to improve on. And he obviously has. He's still a one deminsional player, but he's become very good at the things he does well.

Hawes on the other hand has been jerked around somewhat. Reggie wanted him to be an offensive player. He encouraged shooting wide open three's. He seemed to like Hawes floating on the perimiter. I've no idea what Natt asked of Hawes. I'm not sure Hawes does either. But now Westphal is asking him to become more of a defensive player. I believe it was Westphal that said, If your standing behind the three point line and your always wide open, there's probably a reason.

My point is, that I believe that Hawes growth has been slowed by the inconsistancy of whats been asked of him. Reggie did it to Thompson also. He asked him to play PF, Center, and SF. Its hard enough for a rookie coming into the league without jerking them from one position to another.

Anyway. There is no excuse for bad play. Especially unforced turnovers. They just drive me nuts. But to apply understanding to a situation is not the same thing as excusing it. Too much kneejerk reaction on the fourm.. Present company excused...

I just wanted a banger. I was, excuse me, AM tired of soft centers, my nickname for Vlade was Floppy (don't get it twisted, I loved Vlade). Noah is a beast, he is strong and not afraid to mix it up. And I almost lost my lunch when I heard we made a trade with the Bulls last year, because I thought that was who we were bringing back.....

 

[rainmaker]

Hawes has been extremely fustrating to watch this season. I haven't seen any improvement between last season and this season. If anything, he might have regressed a little. Part of it might be his offseason training. and I say that because he has gotten off to a worse start than all the other young guys on the team. Playing for a new coach and a new system also is a big part of Hawes' performance, or lack of, so far.

Spencers confidence obviously is pretty low right now, and thats why he's missing shots he should be hitting. I don't have a problem with that. Its fustrating, but normal for any 21 yr old to go through. But, one of my concerns, is how much is Hawes' preperation having an effect on his play.

Missing shots is one thing, mainly confidence. But not improving on defensive rotations, getting into the mindset of attacking the basket and getting to the ft line, not boxing out, not comitting hard fouls, ever, and constantly being out of position on pick & roll defense. This is preperation, and knowing what the coaches want and where they expect you to be in a new system. When Spencer says "I'm still figuring out my place and my spots in this offense", well, thats a horrible excuse after skipping summer league. Of course understanding a new offense takes time, but everyone else on the team is picking it up at a much faster rate than Spencer. He looks lost far too often. If you're going to skip summerleague, and work out on your own in Seattle instead of going to a bigman's camp, then don't show up looking completely lost your first couple months of the season. I'm not going to speculate any further on Spencer's offseason, training, but obviously, it didn't work.

Now, with all that being said, I am not giving up on Spencer and don't want to trade him. This is the other part of what makes Spencers development so fustrating. He HAS the talent. He teases us. He might be the most talented 21 yr old big man in the nba. He has shown the ability to run an offense through him, with beautiful back door passes. He has shown some great post moves, and the ability to score on his guy down low. He has had games where he hits most of his jumpers, and looks like a young nowitzki. He has had multiple games of 5+ blocks. He has shown flashes of being one of the most versatile big men in the league down the road. The question is will he put it all together, but the talent is there.

I don't want to give up on who I feel, is the most talented young center in the league. But, he needs help. Its too much too soon. We need another center to help take pressure off him. Its normal for 21 yr old centers to stuggle in this league, although he's struggling more than any of us would like. But the BIGGEST problem we have in not having another center, a backup to ease the pressure and offer advice. A veteran pressence. When Spencer struggles, all the attention is focused on him, because he's the only center we have. When things go bad for Spence, everything he does is under a microscope, fair or infair. But if he had help at that position, another center who could consistently spell him for 15-20 mins, it would greatly ease the pressure on him.

You have to be very carefull when putting a 21 yr old in the starting lineup, without a true backup, and expect him to anchor your frontline. Just because it doesn't work out right away, doesn't mean you give up on him. True, its fustrating as hell to watch sometimes. We have to be patient, and give him some help(you listening petrie?). If we were to let him go, its highly likely we will regret it down the road when Spencer is 25-26 yrs old.

 

[VF21]

Hawes has been extremely fustrating to watch this season. I haven't seen any improvement between last season and this season. If anything, he might have regressed a little. Part of it might be his offseason training. and I say that because he has gotten off to a worse start than all the other young guys on the team. Playing for a new coach and a new system also is a big part of Hawes' performance, or lack of, so far.

Spencers confidence obviously is pretty low right now, and thats why he's missing shots he should be hitting. I don't have a problem with that. Its fustrating, but normal for any 21 yr old to go through. But, one of my concerns, is how much is Hawes' preperation having an effect on his play.

Missing shots is one thing, mainly confidence. But not improving on defensive rotations, getting into the mindset of attacking the basket and getting to the ft line, not boxing out, not comitting hard fouls, ever, and constantly being out of position on pick & roll defense. This is preperation, and knowing what the coaches want and where they expect you to be in a new system. When Spencer says "I'm still figuring out my place and my spots in this offense", well, thats a horrible excuse after skipping summer league. Of course understanding a new offense takes time, but everyone else on the team is picking it up at a much faster rate than Spencer. He looks lost far too often. If you're going to skip summerleague, and work out on your own in Seattle instead of going to a bigman's camp, then don't show up looking completely lost your first couple months of the season. I'm not going to speculate any further on Spencer's offseason, training, but obviously, it didn't work.

Now, with all that being said, I am not giving up on Spencer and don't want to trade him. This is the other part of what makes Spencers development so fustrating. He HAS the talent. He teases us. He might be the most talented 21 yr old big man in the nba. He has shown the ability to run an offense through him, with beautiful back door passes. He has shown some great post moves, and the ability to score on his guy down low. He has had games where he hits most of his jumpers, and looks like a young nowitzki. He has had multiple games of 5+ blocks. He has shown flashes of being one of the most versatile big men in the league down the road. The question is will he put it all together, but the talent is there.

I don't want to give up on who I feel, is the most talented young center in the league. But, he needs help. Its too much too soon. We need another center to help take pressure off him. Its normal for 21 yr old centers to stuggle in this league, although he's struggling more than any of us would like. But the BIGGEST problem we have in not having another center, a backup to ease the pressure and offer advice. A veteran pressence. When Spencer struggles, all the attention is focused on him, because he's the only center we have. When things go bad for Spence, everything he does is under a microscope, fair or infair. But if he had help at that position, another center who could consistently spell him for 15-20 mins, it would greatly ease the pressure on him.

You have to be very carefull when putting a 21 yr old in the starting lineup, without a true backup, and expect him to anchor your frontline. Just because it doesn't work out right away, doesn't mean you give up on him. True, its fustrating as hell to watch sometimes. We have to be patient, and give him some help(you listening petrie?). If we were to let him go, its highly likely we will regret it down the road when Spencer is 25-26 yrs old.

this pretty much is how I view it. Do you think a different big-man coach might be helpful? I just don't see any positive impact in Hawes game from SAR...

 

[rainmaker]

this pretty much is how I view it. Do you think a different big-man coach might be helpful? I just don't see any positive impact in Hawes game from SAR...

I think its definately something we have to look at. Webber has practically begged the maloofs publicly to let him help the franchise. Charles Oakley would love to help coach big men in the nba. Kareem has been tutoring Bynum, and now is going to memphis to help Thabeet. Garnett came up learning in Mchale, and has attributed much of his success to long hours in the gym as a young player working with him. Even Kobe sought out Hakeem O. in september to improve his post play.
There is the famous pete newell bigman camp held every summer, which I don't think Spencer has ever gone to.

There are optiona out there that should help Spenc improve. Aside from that, regarding Shareef, and this is entirely speculation on my part. I never see him talking to Spencer during a game. Never pulling him aside during a timeout when things aren't going well. I never see any dialogue between Shareef and the other bigs on the team. Thats just an observation, take it for what its worth.

 

[VF21]

I think its definately something we have to look at. Webber has practically begged the maloofs publicly to let him help the franchise. Charles Oakley would love to help coach big men in the nba. Kareem has been tutoring Bynum, and now is going to memphis to help Thabeet. Garnett came up learning in Mchale, and has attributed much of his success to long hours in the gym as a young player working with him. Even Kobe sought out Hakeem O. in september to improve his post play.
There is the famous pete newell bigman camp held every summer, which I don't think Spencer has ever gone to.

There are optiona out there that should help Spenc improve. Aside from that, regarding Shareef, and this is entirely speculation on my part. I never see him talking to Spencer during a game. Never pulling him aside during a timeout when things aren't going well. I never see any dialogue between Shareef and the other bigs on the team. Thats just an observation, take it for what its worth.

I've made the same observation. In fact, SAR actually looks disconnected to some extent most of the time.

I like the idea of Webber - of course - but I think any successful big man who is motivated and WANTS to be an interactive coach would be an improvement. I personally think SAR is just tired. And it happens to all of us sooner or later.

 

[bajaden]

I've made the same observation. In fact, SAR actually looks disconnected to some extent most of the time.

I like the idea of Webber - of course - but I think any successful big man who is motivated and WANTS to be an interactive coach would be an improvement. I personally think SAR is just tired. And it happens to all of us sooner or later.

Don't forget that they have Truck Robinson there as well. Neither however was a center. There's always Bill Walton who just retired from broadcasting. Probably too big an ego though. And probably wouldn't want the job. Don't know about Webb. Sometimes the guys with the big ego don't make good teachers, or coaches for that matter. How about someone with coaching experience like Bill Cartwright. He's from the area and he's someone that made the most from what he had.

 

[SacTownKid]

You see, this is where we clash. You are concern first and foremost with W/L. I am concern with developing the kids first and worrying the W/L second.

I didn't relay my opinion one way or the other with what I said, I was saying that it's funny how we are actually kind of doing both much better than we did last year.

 

[beb0p]

I didn't relay my opinion one way or the other with what I said, I was saying that it's funny how we are actually kind of doing both much better than we did last year.

I thought you were responding to my post. So you were just making an off-hand comment?

 

[KingsFan54]

Yup. The only way you can be a successful team with a soft center is if you have another tough low post presence. Vlade owes his success to Webber. We have ZERO low post presence on this team. The last thing we need is a three point shooting, soft, center.

How is it then that we are out rebounding most teams we play?

 

[Gliesian]

I think his value as a point-center is a little overrated by the coaching staff... unless he can hit the 3s, which he can't as of right now. He also lacks the ability to stop centers his size and never tries to beat his man or take 16 footers (or at least not enough of them). Despite all this, benching him would be a mistake because he is tall.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/playerrankings/regularseason/C

I'm ok with with most of JT's problems... but his complaining is STILL going on and if he'd just stop acting like someone stole his wallet and got away with it then maybe the refs would be more lenient. Had to vent about that

 

[Kingster]

Don't forget that they have Truck Robinson there as well. Neither however was a center. There's always Bill Walton who just retired from broadcasting. Probably too big an ego though. And probably wouldn't want the job. Don't know about Webb. Sometimes the guys with the big ego don't make good teachers, or coaches for that matter. How about someone with coaching experience like Bill Cartwright. He's from the area and he's someone that made the most from what he had.

I really don't think Walton has a big ego. What you notice about Walton is how much he talks about how Wooden helped him. That's a sign of thankfullness and humility, not of ego. A call to Walton is worth a shot. He knows the value of giving.

 

[USNAVY15]

I don't like hawes BECAUSE he is comparable to a decent center, and BECAUSE he has game, and BECAUSE he IS going to be a starter in the NBA someday. I don't like Hawes because he will waste the kings' time developing him, and sign with the Knicks or Heat and play his butt into contention for an Allstar spot. I just can't see a situation in which hawes plays better for the kings. If we resign him for 39 million, we still have the same person; if the Heat sign him for 29 million, they have their new STAR center and its ALL GOOD because "Wade can make him better". There is no way to win.

 

[bajaden]

I really don't think Walton has a big ego. What you notice about Walton is how much he talks about how Wooden helped him. That's a sign of thankfullness and humility, not of ego. A call to Walton is worth a shot. He knows the value of giving.

I'm sure that Walton is a very nice man. Its that most people have a perception of him as being somewhat arrogant and condesending in his announcing style. I'd love Walton to tutor Hawes, because Walton had similar skills. Hawes could do worse than to model his game after Walton.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I don't like hawes BECAUSE he is comparable to a decent center, and BECAUSE he has game, and BECAUSE he IS going to be a starter in the NBA someday. I don't like Hawes because he will waste the kings' time developing him, and sign with the Knicks or Heat and play his butt into contention for an Allstar spot. I just can't see a situation in which hawes plays better for the kings. If we resign him for 39 million, we still have the same person; if the Heat sign him for 29 million, they have their new STAR center and its ALL GOOD because "Wade can make him better". There is no way to win.

You don't like Hawes because you're a pessimist? Seems to be a strange reason, but OK.

 

[Nikefutbolero]

It's back...Why? Because of how &^*%&^% soft he played against a weak frontline.

 

[PoundForPound]

It's back...Why? Because of how &^*%&^% soft he played against a weak frontline.

Thank you.

Finally someone on this board who isn't as soft as Spencer himself. speak the truth, my man, speak the truth...

 

[LWP777]

Some players just have what it takes to put it all together and some don't. The fact is, most don't. If I had a dollar for every talented player in NBA history who didn't realize their potential I might be able to put a dent our $10 trillion national debt. It's exactly the same in life away from the NBA. There are people who could have been a doctor who end up settling for something else. Right now, Spencer Hawes is weak minded and immature. He is placing blame elsewhere and not looking at himself in the mirror. You can see it when he gets called for fouls and has that "look" in his face. The referees don't miss every single call. He's frustrated and blaming someone else for his failures.

It's possible that he might come around but it would be more common and it's probably expected that he won't. If he ends up an average to above average NBA player he will have just followed in the footsteps of thousands of other NBA players. I think he has some talent but I don't really think he has All-Star talent as other posters have suggested. He is average in most of his abilities but not great in any one thing. That is what makes it frustrating because it gives us hope that if he could improve in all those areas he could become an All-Star some day.

I know he likes to call himself a conservative. Well, one of the key elements of conservatism is accountability. If he could ever hold himself accountable and grow up he might actually turn the corner. If he allows the money, glamor, and pressure of the NBA to control him (and his enormous ego) then he has no chance.

 

[PoundForPound]

You might as well sticky this thread. It's going to be brought up quite a lot this year until spencer is traded or glued to the bench as he should be.

 

[casspion]

Hawes is a soft loser and JT is a stupid fool who can't make a layup.

This fool JT missed another wide open layup today. You have to be mentally handicapped to miss those.

Our front line is lame. At least JT can play aggressively and rack up stats, even though his stats are worthless when you take all his stupid mistakes into consideration.

Hawes, on the other end, needs to be benched and not get many minutes. This guy is absolutely worthless. Let Brockman play.

I love it when posters give a harsh dose of reality

 

[ElRey]

Remember when Spencer missed summer league this year and pissed his coaches off as well as Kings fans? I said people will be all over his *ss if he doesn't have a good season. Look at what's happening.

 

[Castasic]

the problem with benching spencer is who do we have that would do a better job? Sean May? Already tried that and remember what happened? KT isnt big enough to play Center all the time, and neither is Brockman. I say stick with Hawes untill we find a better solution via trade of free agency.

 

[Nikefutbolero]

sigh...

 

[Gary]

4 points and 2 boards!!! Way to go Spence!

I would rather have Brad Freaking Miller back.. Hawes just plain flat out sucks.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

I really don't see any reason for the doom and gloom here. Yeah, Hawes has played very badly this season. However, we aren't going anywhere this season and really need to give him a full 82 games to evaluate him. He's playing a new role for his 3rd coach in 2 seasons after being hurt his rookie year. He's 21. He still has a ton of upside. He may not reach it, but let's not overreact and then watch him achieve it on another team.

Already this season Beno has gone from garbage we would trade for a shorter bad contract to a potential 6th man of the year candidate. Green has gone from someone some posters were upset about us committing a 4th season to to developing high end prospect everyone is excited about. Sergio went from the person who cost us DeJuan Blair to a young, game changing PG.

This team and all it's players will have ups and downs this season. Hawes has already put up better numbers than this in the past. My vote is that we support him and cut him some slack and don't worry about acquiring another center unless a no brainer deal comes along before the end of the season. Fans can help or hurt a player's confidence. We should be giving Hawes a boost.

 

[casspion]

If Hawes ever becomes a player in this league it will not happen in a Sacramento uniform. It is just a matter of the timeline. He may be a serviceable big in this league, as a starter or back up, at some point but that might be 4-5 years down the road if ever. This is why I think they better throw him into the deal that will resolve the SF logjam. Get a defensive mind veteran with limited offense and that's it.

 

[KingsFan54]

I really don't see any reason for the doom and gloom here. Yeah, Hawes has played very badly this season. However, we aren't going anywhere this season and really need to give him a full 82 games to evaluate him. He's playing a new role for his 3rd coach in 2 seasons after being hurt his rookie year. He's 21. He still has a ton of upside. He may not reach it, but let's not overreact and then watch him achieve it on another team.

Already this season Beno has gone from garbage we would trade for a shorter bad contract to a potential 6th man of the year candidate. Green has gone from someone some posters were upset about us committing a 4th season to to developing high end prospect everyone is excited about. Sergio went from the person who cost us DeJuan Blair to a young, game changing PG.

This team and all it's players will have ups and downs this season. Hawes has already put up better numbers than this in the past. My vote is that we support him and cut him some slack and don't worry about acquiring another center unless a no brainer deal comes along before the end of the season. Fans can help or hurt a player's confidence. We should be giving Hawes a boost.

I totally agree with everything you said, very well said.

 

[LWP777]

I think I know how to fix Hawes. We need to fire Westphal and bring back Natt. Westphal obviously doesn't know how to use him and Hawes was fired up last year playing for Natt.

 

[dbfish]

I know we here all the " He's only 21" talk. (Said it myself), but if Spencer continues to regress at the rate he is, he will be a 23 year old stock broker.

 

[bajaden]

I know we here all the " He's only 21" talk. (Said it myself), but if Spencer continues to regress at the rate he is, he will be a 23 year old stock broker.

Hey! Some of my best friends are stockbrokers.