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mr. moustache
Bench
If I'm the sixers, I do that deal. Trading young for old before you know the young guy's potential is dangerous.
I'm sure a lot of the people here would also add "exposing a young player to an expansion draft before you know the young guy's potential is dangerous."
bloom
Starter
So people want to bench Spencer for …… Sean May, Kenny Thomas, or John Brockman? Out of all those choices I like John but I wouldn’t want him to start. I like him off the bench (and I think he needs more time on the court).
Maybe we should start running some simple plays for Spencer at the beginning of the games and try to get him going. I’ve seen a lot of plays set of for JT and maybe we should also give Spencer some plays too.
Maybe we should start running some simple plays for Spencer at the beginning of the games and try to get him going. I’ve seen a lot of plays set of for JT and maybe we should also give Spencer some plays too.
Big Cuz 15
All-Star
i dont think it's time to throw these guys under the bus yet. i think its time to bring in a big man coach/tutor for our frontline. we got a good undersized big man coach that teaches rebounding. how about one that is decorated who can guide these young men (ewing helped d. howard, hakeem worked w/ yao a little, kareem worked w/ bynum..).
NewArena
All-Star
Unless we find some great defensive Big man for Nocioni or Kenny thomas, then i dont see the point of benching Hawes. Who do we have...Sean May? undersized and just as soft. Brockman? Tough player but undersized and is nothing more than a bench player.
JT has been pissing me off A LOT more than Hawes has been. I have come to expect Hawes to play this way, but more is expected of JT, and all he is doing is making dumb mistake after dumb mistake. I know he's young but he was in college for Four Damn years, and the mistakes that he makes are unacceptable at any level.
JT has been pissing me off A LOT more than Hawes has been. I have come to expect Hawes to play this way, but more is expected of JT, and all he is doing is making dumb mistake after dumb mistake. I know he's young but he was in college for Four Damn years, and the mistakes that he makes are unacceptable at any level.
S
sactownfan
Guest
yeah things are getting pretty bad with the front line.... and yes its all Hawes fault... if Hawes was carrying any of his weight JT would be more able to finish (a lil more able) and also wouldn't be picking up as many fouls thats for sure...
Hawes is looking pretty buster-iffic! at this point but the saving grace for him is that...
hes 2 years younger than JT.
however i just am so disappointed with Hawes... i've questioned his attitude and commitment to getting stronger/being in good shape... I think Hawes skipping out on the summer league without telling the team was a good indicator to the kind of season he was going to have.
Hawes is looking pretty buster-iffic! at this point but the saving grace for him is that...
hes 2 years younger than JT.
however i just am so disappointed with Hawes... i've questioned his attitude and commitment to getting stronger/being in good shape... I think Hawes skipping out on the summer league without telling the team was a good indicator to the kind of season he was going to have.
NewArena
All-Star
Hawes just seems incredibly lazy and he looks like he has never lifted a weight or done any for of cardio in his life. When you dont work on your game, thinking skills are just going to fall out of the sky, that is when you fail.
Now i know im not behind the scenes and i wouldn't know any of these things to be 100% true...but that is why i said it seems like this is the case.
Obviously, the Kings wanted to get tougher with the draft and did with Evans, Casspi and Brockman. Add JT and Niocioni and we've got a pretty tough team. Now add Hawes. Like in the Sesame Street sketch, one of these things don't match with the others...
But toughness isn't everything if you have good fundamentals, good BB IQ and saviness, and displayable talent that can offset lack of toughness. Similar to what Vlade had. Even what Brockman seems to have. Hawes, though, I haven't really seen yet. Like I said earlier, if you catch Hawes in any pick and roll, you'll basically have an open man near the basket. And like a team with a good scouting report, Memphis went to that all night with much success. Now if Hawes, caught on, say after he got burned the 15th time, I would think he would adjust. Nope. Same with some other mistakes. It's like hitting the replay button on your remote control over and over. No change. I'm rooting for Hawes, but tonight was an aggravating night for Kings fans. C'mon Hawes, prove me wrong.
PS: I know it's risky comparing Hawes to the Vlade with 10+ years of NBA experience. My intent was not to make that literal comparison, but rather for Hawes just to show at least some BB IQ and basic fundamentals that a couple of years under his belt should give him.
But toughness isn't everything if you have good fundamentals, good BB IQ and saviness, and displayable talent that can offset lack of toughness. Similar to what Vlade had. Even what Brockman seems to have. Hawes, though, I haven't really seen yet. Like I said earlier, if you catch Hawes in any pick and roll, you'll basically have an open man near the basket. And like a team with a good scouting report, Memphis went to that all night with much success. Now if Hawes, caught on, say after he got burned the 15th time, I would think he would adjust. Nope. Same with some other mistakes. It's like hitting the replay button on your remote control over and over. No change. I'm rooting for Hawes, but tonight was an aggravating night for Kings fans. C'mon Hawes, prove me wrong.
PS: I know it's risky comparing Hawes to the Vlade with 10+ years of NBA experience. My intent was not to make that literal comparison, but rather for Hawes just to show at least some BB IQ and basic fundamentals that a couple of years under his belt should give him.
beb0p
Starter
First it was:
PLAY THE KIDS!!!
And when it turns out one isn't entirely ready, it changed to:
BENCH THE KID!!!
And subsequently:
TRADE THE KID!!!
Jeez, and some of you wonder why I was so reluctant to give Hawes/JT starter mins last season. This is why.
Look, this what many fans asked for: rebuild the team and play the young. I got news for some of you, not every kid is going to hit it out of the park on his first at bat. And you don't give up on a 21 yr old center less than a month into his third season.
PLAY THE KIDS!!!
And when it turns out one isn't entirely ready, it changed to:
BENCH THE KID!!!
And subsequently:
TRADE THE KID!!!
Jeez, and some of you wonder why I was so reluctant to give Hawes/JT starter mins last season. This is why.
Look, this what many fans asked for: rebuild the team and play the young. I got news for some of you, not every kid is going to hit it out of the park on his first at bat. And you don't give up on a 21 yr old center less than a month into his third season.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Well jeez man, don't hold back or anything, tell us what you really think.
It's called YOUTH. Failure now can only lead to future positives by learning to play through those rough patches.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
mr. moustache
Bench
Ouch.
I'm sure a lot of the people here would also add "exposing a young player to an expansion draft before you know the young guy's potential is dangerous."
Chupacabra
Starter
It sounds as though people expect this current team to be good right now. Its not going to happen that quickly folks. We all knew full well this team was still going to suck, just not as bad as they sucked last year. So far this has been true. Lets all just be happy that we did well in the draft this past summer.
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Nikefutbolero
Guest
Umm this isn't his first at bat. He's been in the league three years and hasn't shown anything. You can't teach toughness and that's the major thing he lacks.
DocHolliday
Starter
I stopped reading the posts when someone said bench JT also. Are you effing serious?? Really?? The guy that plays hard every night and has been a double double machine?? That guy?? You want to bench HIM?!?!
Just because he tends to get in a bit of foul trouble?? He's been a lot better this year, and last night he had an off game and got in fould trouble again. it's going to happen, it's his 2nd year.
I alwasy hated the bi-polar personality of many kings fans on this board. This board went from wow, we might make an 8th seed push, and we're fantastic, and I'm so excited to...
THIS WHOLE TEAM SUCKS BENCH EVERYONE...
Get real folks.
And to be specific, because there are some nit-pickers on this site. I don't mean everyone, but there is a group of people that are like that.
Just because he tends to get in a bit of foul trouble?? He's been a lot better this year, and last night he had an off game and got in fould trouble again. it's going to happen, it's his 2nd year.
I alwasy hated the bi-polar personality of many kings fans on this board. This board went from wow, we might make an 8th seed push, and we're fantastic, and I'm so excited to...
THIS WHOLE TEAM SUCKS BENCH EVERYONE...
Get real folks.
And to be specific, because there are some nit-pickers on this site. I don't mean everyone, but there is a group of people that are like that.
piksi
Hall of Famer
dumb just dumb
Showtime
Starter
I remember reading a quote in the Okafor thread somebody said something to the effect of:
'The rebuilding is over. I know it's hard to believe, but this team is ready now and just needs the right piece to put them over the top.'
I laughed. It's funny what a 4 game win streak will do for fans who watched a 17 win season. This kings team is still a lottery team, period. This has to be recognized. I know they are still staying in games while injured, but they have yet to prove they can finish close games, even with Martin in the lineup.
All these apologies for Hawes, all these excuses. I don't think anyone is expecting us to win a championship here, but there is a serious problem with Hawes. Weather it's that he isn't being worked in to the offence (coaches problem), or he isn't motivated (player's problem) THERE IS A PROBLEM.
Bottom line, unlike JT, Hawes isn't getting better, he's getting worse, much worse. He performs just enough to remind us that he can, but won't or can't perform consistently. BIG PROBLEM. Brad Miller Jr. He has the potential to undermine everything that has been accomplished so far with this team as far as energy and commitment.
Bottom line, unlike JT, Hawes isn't getting better, he's getting worse, much worse. He performs just enough to remind us that he can, but won't or can't perform consistently. BIG PROBLEM. Brad Miller Jr. He has the potential to undermine everything that has been accomplished so far with this team as far as energy and commitment.
kupman
Starter
The lack of patience with our young front court is fairly astounding. Spencer has not been playing well. He will probably play better, especially with physical and mental maturity. When you take a look around the league the "young centers" are like 23-25 years old. What does that make Spencer? The only other very young centers in he league are Brook Lopez and Oden. Spencer's and Odens number are pretty comparable despite how bad Hawes has been playing. Lopez is putting up nice numbers on what is a truly horrible team.
If we trade Spencer today, in 3-4 years we could be rue-ing the day.
If we trade Spencer today, in 3-4 years we could be rue-ing the day.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
And what do you base that on? Last night's performance? If so, Beno, Thompson and Noc need to be benched. NOW!
beb0p
Starter
And yet our team is far more competitive than last year! Funny huh?
You see, this is where we clash. You are concern first and foremost with W/L. I am concern with developing the kids first and worrying the W/L second.
LoungeLizard
Starter
All it will take is 2 solid games in a row and this thread will get lost in the archives and the new "Spencer for MIP award" thread will be burning up.
Leave him in there, besides, I think Westphal has already shown that if Hawes is on the bench it won't be Brockman who's in his place, it will be Sean May
.
Leave him in there, besides, I think Westphal has already shown that if Hawes is on the bench it won't be Brockman who's in his place, it will be Sean May
.
beb0p
Starter
He has been in the league for two yrs, not three. He is only starting his third yr. He hasn't shown anything? I can understand the softness label, but "hasn't shawn anything" means you haven't watched enough games. Hawes shows glimpes of being very good, but he is inconsistent.
You don't give up on a young center unless you have a better replacement. As I've said in another post, this season is about developing the kids, not winning games. If you can't stand the losing I suggest you check back in a couple of years.
beb0p
Starter
I agree somewhat with your post until the last statement. No, Hawes isn't powerful enough to undermine an entire team all by himself. On the contrary, he has been hustling but he is just not up to speed yet. Maybe he never will but the Kings have to play him to find out.
P
PoundForPound
Guest
Quick question, why everytime someone takes a shot at hawes (for good reason), someone else defends him by bashing on JT?? I am perfectly fine with Jason Thompson as our starting PF. He is not afraid of contact like spencer hawes, his layups aren't falling but that will fix on it's own. Hawes however, will always be soft. Get him out of here.
K
Kingsguy881
Guest
Me too. That we can agree on.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Well he hasn't been in the league three years. This is the beginning of his third year. He missed so much of his first year, that this year is more like the beginning of his second year. I'm not making excuses for him. Quite the contrary. I'm saying that this is normal. Frustrating yes, but normal. I could spend days making comparisons to other players the went through the same process. There have been people that would like us to trade for Chris Kaman. So lets take a look at him..
Exact comparisons are difficult because of games played and minutes played. So I'm just going to use total minutes, points, and rebounds for the first two years.
Kaman: 3.475 minutes played. 1,071 points scored, 884 total rebounds.
Hawes: 3,187 minutes played. 1,210 points scored, 778 total rebounds.
Hawes played fewer minutes and scored more points but had fewer rebounds. All in all though, pretty similar stats. Kaman improved a little more in his third year, but became the player we now know in his fourth year. But looking at just his first two years, a lot of people on this fourm would have traded him away.
Nowitzki: 3,896 minutes played, 1,820 points scored, 694 total rebounds
Dirk's first year was a total failure. The fans wanted him gone and thought he was a total bust. All after just one year. Now Hawes may never become the player we all hoped he would. But you have to be completely sure before trading him away. He's on his third coach and third system in three years. He's been in the starting lineup and out of the starting lineup. He's played with a never ending change of players. So I'm willing to cut him some slack. Doesn't mean I won't point out bad play. But I also won't overreact to it.
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