Dwight Howard

[Dr. Spaceman]

I'd be perfectly happy with those stats from our big man. Where do I sign up?

You can sign up for season tickets for the 2035 NBA season, when half the league is a genetically engineered freak of nature straight out of Brave New World or Gattaca.

I'd easily settle for just as good as Howard. Dwight just named NBA defensive player of the year - third straight is a record. I agree that DeMarcus might eventually be better than Howard but he'll need to be more of a defensive presence. At only 20 he's way better spot shooter than Howard, way better FT shooter, and passer. Has a lot of amazing tools at such a young age and plenty of time to refine them and develop more.

I love DMC as much as anyone else here, but defensively, he will never hold a candle to Howard. On defense, Howard possesses that game-changing, awe-inspiring athleticism (not just hops, but lateral quickness) that DMC just can't account for. Not saying you said that, but to be considered "as good" as Howard, the point has to be brought up.

Having said that, I still wouldn't trade DMC for Dwight, even straight up. Like you were saying, skill-wise he is already a game-changer offensively in a number of facets that Dwight will never hold a candle to. As a passer/playmaker, he's light years ahead of Dwight. Dwight is a good passer out of double-teams in the post, but the entire offense is geared toward this single facet of his offensive game. Even still, he's averaging just 1.5 assists for his career and HALF an assist for the playoffs. Sure, his team sucks this year, but as much as I like him, he won't be a threat to average 3, 4, 5 assists like Cousins has already shown the propensity to be in his first year. His team kind of, sort of sucked in the open shot hitting department as well.

Just in terms of pure scoring instincts, he's light years ahead of Dwight. Look at how many years it took Dwight to learn some solid post-moves. And this is learning under the guidance of Patrick freaking Ewing every day in practice. Cousins just completed his first year, showing a jumper that Dwight doesn't have. Post-moves and counter-moves that Dwight can only daydream about pulling off. Handles and a face-up game (that he needs to rein in and moderate more, but will be important in his career) that Dwight doesn't have.

Because of how limited Dwight is offensively versus how talented DMC is on that end, the most important distinction we'll be making in the years to come is how good they are in the clutch. Would you be comfortable with giving the last shot to win a game to Dwight, when everyone knows he'll be getting it in the low-post and you can just throw a double or even a triple at him and force one of his shaky shooters to do the deed? Or to draw a foul and count on him to hit free-throws?

I can't say I'd be comfortable, as much as I like Dwight. But I am confident I'll be able to do all of that with Cousins. Sooner rather than later, knowing how smart he is. I'm not trading this guy for Dwight. Let's get both of these guys some anger management guidance though, so we can make sure we see them both at full potential first.

 

[rhythmless]

Just in terms of pure scoring instincts, he's light years ahead of Dwight. Look at how many years it took Dwight to learn some solid post-moves. And this is learning under the guidance of Patrick freaking Ewing every day in practice. Cousins just completed his first year, showing a jumper that Dwight doesn't have. Post-moves and counter-moves that Dwight can only daydream about pulling off. Handles and a face-up game (that he needs to rein in and moderate more, but will be important in his career) that Dwight doesn't have.

This is just ridiculous.

DMC
[SIZE=-1]Shot[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Att.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]eFG%[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Ast'd[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Blk'd[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Pts[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Jump[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]61% [/SIZE][SIZE=-1].330 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]49% [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]12% [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5.0[/SIZE]

Howard
[SIZE=-1]Shot[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Att.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]eFG%[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Ast'd[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Blk'd[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Pts[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Jump[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
32% [/SIZE][SIZE=-1].500 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]73% [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]10% [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4.3 [/SIZE]

If by "showing" you mean shooting twice as many while missing more often, then sure. DMC misses a lot of jump shots. He also shoots a lot of jumpshots he absolutely should not take. I watch most of the games. I also watch them without Kings glasses on. The things some of you say are incomprehensible. I love that we have DMC. I wanted him out of the draft. I fight for his place against some of my friends. I defend him. But I will not hesitate to call him out for his deficiencies.

For those who have already annointed the starting All star spots to Tyreke and DMC for the next 10 years, are you also the guys who have said kmart had the potential to be a star? Were you also the ones who thought Ron Artest could blossom into a #1? Because Kmart is another scoring guard and Artest has fulfilled his potential (yes, Artest had immense potential) to be a #4/#5 option.

Dwight's face up game is great when he chooses to use it. Cousins hurts his team with turnovers "showing" his face up game and "ball handling." Not sure how all those turnovers you see help a team win. Dwight chooses to do what is effective for his team. DMC would be loads more effective in the post, but for some reason he likes to take quicker bigs off the dribble. He likes to get the ball stolen by guards. Dwight doesn't do that.

I'm sure Dwight could get stripped off the dribble like DMC if he wanted to.

 

[Dr. Spaceman]

This is just ridiculous.

DMC
[SIZE=-1]Shot[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Att.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]eFG%[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Ast'd[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Blk'd[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Pts[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Jump[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]61% [/SIZE][SIZE=-1].330 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]49% [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]12% [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5.0[/SIZE]

Howard
[SIZE=-1]Shot[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Att.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]eFG%[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Ast'd[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Blk'd[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Pts[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Jump[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
32% [/SIZE][SIZE=-1].500 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]73% [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]10% [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4.3 [/SIZE]

If by "showing" you mean shooting twice as many while missing more often, then sure. DMC misses a lot of jump shots. He also shoots a lot of jumpshots he absolutely should not take. I watch most of the games. I also watch them without Kings glasses on. The things some of you say are incomprehensible. I love that we have DMC. I wanted him out of the draft. I fight for his place against some of my friends. I defend him. But I will not hesitate to call him out for his deficiencies.

For those who have already annointed the starting All star spots to Tyreke and DMC for the next 10 years, are you also the guys who have said kmart had the potential to be a star? Were you also the ones who thought Ron Artest could blossom into a #1? Because Kmart is another scoring guard and Artest has fulfilled his potential (yes, Artest had immense potential) to be a #4/#5 option.

Dwight's face up game is great when he chooses to use it. Cousins hurts his team with turnovers "showing" his face up game and "ball handling." Not sure how all those turnovers you see help a team win. Dwight chooses to do what is effective for his team. DMC would be loads more effective in the post, but for some reason he likes to take quicker bigs off the dribble. He likes to get the ball stolen by guards. Dwight doesn't do that.

I'm sure Dwight could get stripped off the dribble like DMC if he wanted to.

So you deny that the stroke is there? That his jumpshot looks far more natural than Dwight's does (and this is a direct comparison between DMC in year 1 and Dwight's jumpshot in year 6)? That a lot of his jumpshots are also dictated by the primitive Tyreke clear-out offense that the Kings run?

The ball handling is there. Dwight's face up game is limited to a couple of dribbles straight into the low post. I've watched him plenty, and the guy doesn't have handles. Certainly not as good as Cousins.

That said, I already talked about Cousins needing to rein it in and making smarter decisions about when to use those tools, but he has them. Rookies with turnover issues??? Unfathomable! I understand all of his deficiencies, and as someone who watched nearly every single game, I won't hesitate to say that I was frustrated with him and his decision making at times throughout the entire season. But I can also recognize skills and I'm not gonna tear him down for going through growing pains and learning when and where he can use his abilities in a new league.

I agree that he needs much more balance in his game, with a focus on the low post. The last thing I want to see is Black Spencer. But if you're going to pretend like all of these tools that he flashed in, again, his very first year in the league, are not unique and important for a center in the NBA, then enjoy the Dwight fantasy train. But just imagine when Cousins "gets it," like it took Dwight 5 to 6 years to "get it" as an all-around player.

 

[bajaden]

This is just ridiculous.

DMC
[SIZE=-1]Shot[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Att.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]eFG%[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Ast'd[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Blk'd[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Pts[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Jump[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]61% [/SIZE][SIZE=-1].330 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]49% [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]12% [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5.0[/SIZE]

Howard
[SIZE=-1]Shot[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Att.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]eFG%[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Ast'd[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Blk'd[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Pts[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Jump[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
32% [/SIZE][SIZE=-1].500 [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]73% [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]10% [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4.3 [/SIZE]

If by "showing" you mean shooting twice as many while missing more often, then sure. DMC misses a lot of jump shots. He also shoots a lot of jumpshots he absolutely should not take. I watch most of the games. I also watch them without Kings glasses on. The things some of you say are incomprehensible. I love that we have DMC. I wanted him out of the draft. I fight for his place against some of my friends. I defend him. But I will not hesitate to call him out for his deficiencies.

For those who have already annointed the starting All star spots to Tyreke and DMC for the next 10 years, are you also the guys who have said kmart had the potential to be a star? Were you also the ones who thought Ron Artest could blossom into a #1? Because Kmart is another scoring guard and Artest has fulfilled his potential (yes, Artest had immense potential) to be a #4/#5 option.

Dwight's face up game is great when he chooses to use it. Cousins hurts his team with turnovers "showing" his face up game and "ball handling." Not sure how all those turnovers you see help a team win. Dwight chooses to do what is effective for his team. DMC would be loads more effective in the post, but for some reason he likes to take quicker bigs off the dribble. He likes to get the ball stolen by guards. Dwight doesn't do that.

I'm sure Dwight could get stripped off the dribble like DMC if he wanted to.

I'm pretty sure that anyone that watched the Kings play this year knows what Cousins deficiences are. I'm also sure that anyone that keeps track of bigs when they come into the league, knows that we have a keeper, and perhaps, if he works hard enough, a major star in the league. That aside, the only similarity between Howard and Cousins, is that they both play the same position. To compare Howard today, a player thats played 7 seasons in the league, to Cousins, who just played his rookie season, is totally unfair. Especially when you consider that Howard is considered by many to be the best center in the league.

They are two entirely different types of players, and both bring different strengths to the game. Howard is a freak of nature, and was considered a future star, if not a superstar when he came into the league. If you look at each players first year stats, you can find positives and negatives about each player. I'm not going to disect each players game, but I think everyone would agree that Howard lived up to his press clippiings for a first year player. He was expected to have a defensive impact, with a somewhat limited offense. In other words, all he could do was dunk the ball. Thus, he shot at a higher percentage.

My point is, they didn't ask Howard to stand at the top of the key and find cutters, or be the shooter in the pick and roll. First off, he wasn't capable of doing that at the time, and I'm not sure he's very good at doing it now, 7 years later. But if they had asked him to, his turnover rate would have increased greatly, and his shooting percentage would have gone down dramaticly.

Howard doesn't have a faceup game because he chooses not to use it, but because he doesn't have it. His freethrow shooting percentage has actually declined from his rookie season. Howard will never dazzle anyone with his passing ability, although it has improved. This isn't to knock Howard, its just that this is who he is. Its damm hard to find a perfect player. Especially a big one.

There's no doubt Cousins has areas he needs to impove, but thats a given. He is just a rookie for gods sake. It should also be pointed out that he was asked to do things this past season that he wasn't asked to do at Kentucky. I'm not sure if you or others out there watched Cousins play at kentucky, but you never saw him in the high post. As a matter of fact, you never saw him more than 5 to 7 feet away from the basket.

On offense, he set up exclusively in the low post where he didn't even have to put the ball on the floor most of the time. It was one move and a basket. For the Kings last season, he seldom set up close to the basket. He was either at the top of the key in the high post, or on the left wing about 10 to 12 fee from the basket. I'm assuming that this was to give him room to pass the ball to cutters. And it was for the most part successful from that point of view.

But it also made his offense more difficult. It caused him to take more jumpers, or, put the ball on the floor with the entent of going to the basket. And, there's no doubt that he made poor choices at times, and therefore, the turnovers. If you step back and look at the big picture, I think he did a hell of a job, for someone doing something he had never done before, not in highschool, or in college, but in the highest level of professional basketball in the world.

So where you might see negatives that you want to criticize, I see huge positives for the future. I guess I wear a different set of glasses. I grant you that he has to clean up his game. Reduce his mistakes. Get in even better shape. Improve his post game. Improve his ballhandling. learn to play defense by moving his feet and using his lower body more. You don't have to be a freak athlete to play good defense. Bogut is a good defender when healthy. Perkins is a good defender. Neither of these guys can jump out of the gym.

He's young and has plenty of time to improve, and if he does, then we'll have one of, if not the best center in the league. Its all up to him, and he says all the right things right now. Talk is cheap. Its easier to sit on a porch in Alabama and eat good food, than it is to be in a gym working out with a trainer. So I guess we'll see. But I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[rhythmless]

So you deny that the stroke is there? That his jumpshot looks far more natural than Dwight's does (and this is a direct comparison between DMC in year 1 and Dwight's jumpshot in year 6)? That a lot of his jumpshots are also dictated by the primitive Tyreke clear-out offense that the Kings run?

Stroke is there, decisionmaking is not. I think his jumpshot should only be taken when he is wide wide open and set, not his, "jab step, jab step, fadeaway." I pull my hair out when he does it, even when it goes in sometimes. You are making 33% of your jumpshots and shooting 40% overall as a center. Those are disgusting numbers for an "offensive" center.

The ball handling is there. Dwight's face up game is limited to a couple of dribbles straight into the low post. I've watched him plenty, and the guy doesn't have handles. Certainly not as good as Cousins.

That said, I already talked about Cousins needing to rein it in and making smarter decisions about when to use those tools, but he has them. Rookies with turnover issues??? Unfathomable! I understand all of his deficiencies, and as someone who watched nearly every single game, I won't hesitate to say that I was frustrated with him and his decision making at times throughout the entire season. But I can also recognize skills and I'm not gonna tear him down for going through growing pains and learning when and where he can use his abilities in a new league.

Agree. But where I and the rest of you defer is that you are all taking progress as a sure thing. You are all assuming he will tone it down and play the right way. Look at JR smith. Gobs and gobs of talent. He can absolutely control a game for half a quarter. He can also shoot you out of a game and wreck momentum. He's been in the league a long time and still hasn't gotten it. DMC has gobs of skill. If he minimized his mistakes without even progressing his talent from the end of the year he would be a bubble all star selection. He may figure it out, he may not. Dwight has and continues to have the right attitude to get better. That's all I'm saying.

I agree that he needs much more balance in his game, with a focus on the low post. The last thing I want to see is Black Spencer. But if you're going to pretend like all of these tools that he flashed in, again, his very first year in the league, are not unique and important for a center in the NBA, then enjoy the Dwight fantasy train. But just imagine when Cousins "gets it," like it took Dwight 5 to 6 years to "get it" as an all-around player.

Dwight impacted the game the right way from the get go; on defense. I would rather have a center who starts w/defense and brings his offensive game along rather than a plodding fatty (he was pretty fat at the beg of season) who loves to play like a guard. Jab steps, taking people off the dribble, trying to get CHARGES? You're 6'11 and 275. Your standing reach is insane. Jump that 1 foot you can do and block a damn shot. You're not Glen Davis. You're a properly sized center, so play like one.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

we can all agree rhythmless likes howard. i'm pro cousins/reke. i think both of them will help turn this franchise around and start making the playoffs in the very near future.

 

[rhythmless]

I'm pretty sure that anyone that watched the Kings play this year knows what Cousins deficiences are. I'm also sure that anyone that keeps track of bigs when they come into the league, knows that we have a keeper, and perhaps, if he works hard enough, a major star in the league. That aside, the only similarity between Howard and Cousins, is that they both play the same position. To compare Howard today, a player thats played 7 seasons in the league, to Cousins, who just played his rookie season, is totally unfair. Especially when you consider that Howard is considered by many to be the best center in the league.

This is a trade where we would have to include both of our young guys for a certified perrenial all star/HOF/top 5 player/top center. A comparison of your traded players is prudent. That's how it is when you trade for stars. Howard isn't considered to be the best center in the league. He is, without a doubt. Best center now. Best center for the last few years(I don't think TD is a center), even without any offense for the first few. To even try and fudge that leaves little credibility.

They are two entirely different types of players, and both bring different strengths to the game. Howard is a freak of nature, and was considered a future star, if not a superstar when he came into the league. If you look at each players first year stats, you can find positives and negatives about each player. I'm not going to disect each players game, but I think everyone would agree that Howard lived up to his press clippiings for a first year player. He was expected to have a defensive impact, with a somewhat limited offense. In other words, all he could do was dunk the ball. Thus, he shot at a higher percentage.

My point is, they didn't ask Howard to stand at the top of the key and find cutters, or be the shooter in the pick and roll. First off, he wasn't capable of doing that at the time, and I'm not sure he's very good at doing it now, 7 years later. But if they had asked him to, his turnover rate would have increased greatly, and his shooting percentage would have gone down dramaticly.

Yes, all he could do was dunk. So what did he do? He dunked it. He recognized his strengths and weaknesses, and played accordingly. Then he worked on his game in practice and added to his game as he was able to be effective. He now has a pretty good bank shot which is effective. So he uses it. Look at his jump shot percentage. It's high and he doesn't use it that often because he picks his spots to be effective. DMC is not effective right now. It seems like DMC likes to play around with what he can do in games. Wily nily would describe it best.

But it also made his offense more difficult. It caused him to take more jumpers, or, put the ball on the floor with the entent of going to the basket. And, there's no doubt that he made poor choices at times, and therefore, the turnovers. If you step back and look at the big picture, I think he did a hell of a job, for someone doing something he had never done before, not in highschool, or in college, but in the highest level of professional basketball in the world.

So where you might see negatives that you want to criticize, I see huge positives for the future. I guess I wear a different set of glasses. I grant you that he has to clean up his game. Reduce his mistakes. Get in even better shape. Improve his post game. Improve his ballhandling. learn to play defense by moving his feet and using his lower body more. You don't have to be a freak athlete to play good defense. Bogut is a good defender when healthy. Perkins is a good defender. Neither of these guys can jump out of the gym.

He's young and has plenty of time to improve, and if he does, then we'll have one of, if not the best center in the league. Its all up to him, and he says all the right things right now. Talk is cheap. Its easier to sit on a porch in Alabama and eat good food, than it is to be in a gym working out with a trainer. So I guess we'll see. But I'm keeping my fingers crossed.[/QUOTE]

The jumpers I am criticizing arent where he tries to find cutters and finds himiself open because his man is playing off him to protect against the cutters; they are where he has iso'd his man and decides to face up.

KF has a history of overhyping our players because we are so starved of talent. Everyone that passes through is annointed star in the making. Some of it is because of Kings media. Some of it is because we naturally have kings bias. Some of it is because some of KF is a selfproclaimed kings fan versus basketball fan. Some only watch kings, so relativity is all gone. I think this is one of those times where we are discounting the impact that Howard has on a game. He is already transcendent and still getting better. DMC has a ton of positives, moreso than many players, but more negatives than most people as well. It's up to him to figure it out. I'm saying I will take the top 5 player and top center over two promiosing young kids, both of whom have glaring deficiencies in skillset and personality.

I think there would be a massive shift in public opinion if Dwight were our guy for the past 7 years and we were asked to trade him for two Orlando kids with potential and potential headaches to match.

 

[Dr. Spaceman]

Stroke is there, decisionmaking is not. I think his jumpshot should only be taken when he is wide wide open and set, not his, "jab step, jab step, fadeaway." I pull my hair out when he does it, even when it goes in sometimes. You are making 33% of your jumpshots and shooting 40% overall as a center. Those are disgusting numbers for an "offensive" center.



Agree. But where I and the rest of you defer is that you are all taking progress as a sure thing. You are all assuming he will tone it down and play the right way. Look at JR smith. Gobs and gobs of talent. He can absolutely control a game for half a quarter. He can also shoot you out of a game and wreck momentum. He's been in the league a long time and still hasn't gotten it. DMC has gobs of skill. If he minimized his mistakes without even progressing his talent from the end of the year he would be a bubble all star selection. He may figure it out, he may not. Dwight has and continues to have the right attitude to get better. That's all I'm saying.



Dwight impacted the game the right way from the get go; on defense. I would rather have a center who starts w/defense and brings his offensive game along rather than a plodding fatty (he was pretty fat at the beg of season) who loves to play like a guard. Jab steps, taking people off the dribble, trying to get CHARGES? You're 6'11 and 275. Your standing reach is insane. Jump that 1 foot you can do and block a damn shot. You're not Glen Davis. You're a properly sized center, so play like one.

Most all of your points are fair. He needs much more balance in his game. And the charges need to be cut down, no doubt. The only mistake you made is bringing up JR Smith as even a remote tool of comparison. JR Smith is a straight-up moron with hops and a jumper. DMC is not a moron. He may be the most intelligent player on the team, scary as the thought may be. Hot headed and immature to be sure. But also pretty self-aware. You can see it readily, as much as he tries to shield himself in the media. I have faith in his improvement not because I'm a homer, but because if I see someone that smart while being as ridiculously competitive as he is, I just know someone like that is more likely to succeed than to fail. This is going to be DeMarcus' team in 5 years, not Tyreke. Westphal won't realize it, but as soon as we get a real coach in there, and as soon as DMC brings things under control (including the body), this is going to be the DMC and Tyreke Show, not the other way around. And it'll be a pretty good show.

 

[bajaden]

Wow, not sure what happened there. System broke down or something. Don't know why it had my original quote. All I did was hit the reply with quote button.. Oh well, sorry folks. Makes it a tough read.

 

[bajaden]

Look, I'm not downplaying Howards abilitities, its just that I'm not willing to trade two potential stars for one established star. Just a matter of opinion. I realize you were comparing current skills for trade value. I was comparing first year skills as an arguement against the trade, by showing that Cousins first year was comparable to Howards, and therefore, his future may similar.

I will admit that I'm a skills guy, and Howard hasn't really made enough effort, (in my opinion) to develop other skills. As I said in another thread. He's just one knee injury away from the end of his career, or becoming just average. I say that because if he were to lose some of his athleticism, his game would be severly affected. More so than players that rely more on their skills.

Now I don't expect or hope that will happen. Howard is great for the game. Now if you read my posts, you know I don't rave about a player simply because he's a King. I wanted Cousins long before he was drafted and said so enough, as to make people nauseous. I'm not oppossed to pointing out his flaws. I said that he made some bad decisons from the high post or the left elbow. But I do think you have to take into account that he had never ever played from those positions before. So it was a learning process, and you have to assume he'll make mistakes. Believe me, the mistakes frustrate me as much as they do you. I just temper that frustration with the knowledge that yes he'll be making them, and hopefully he'll learn from them.

By the way, most of his iso's come from his not being able to find a cutter. And thats mostly because no one is moving without the ball. Those have actually been reduced since Thornton arrived. Simply because Thornton moves without the ball. But I'll admit that sometimes the defense takes away those options, and Cousins has to do a better job of finding other options. The team also has to do a better job of offering him other options.

And just to be clear, I don't think he decided to play from those positions on his own. It was obviously part of the Kings offense. Now you could be right in what you said in your last sentence, but we'll never know, will we? If we can come back to reality here for just a moment. These discussions are interesting, and suspossed to be fun. But when they turn nasty, then I no longer see the point of discussing something thats not going to happen. Dwight Howard isn't coming here. Even if Orlando wanted to make a trade with us because our offer was too good to pass up, it won't happen unless Howard signs on. Howard has made it perfectly clear where he wants to go, and it isn't sacramento. Lets face it, if he did want to come here, the reason would be because of the young talent we have. If we have to give a large part of the talent to trade for him, then whats the point.

I guess I can't understand why everyone is always looking for a quick fix, and they're never content with the team they have. I could understand if the future looked bleak, but it doesn't. I've been watching basketball for a long time, and Cousins is one of the most talented big men to come along. If you go with percentages, he's going to be very very good. But, there are no guarantees. I hate to keep bringing up Derrick Coleman, but I thought he was going to be the best PF of all time. Unfortunately, he was content to be just what he was when he arrived. Could be true of Cousins as well. I wouldn't bet on it though. I think he has too much fire in his belly to be content. Sometimes too much fire.

 

[Bricklayer]

For those who have already annointed the starting All star spots to Tyreke and DMC for the next 10 years, are you also the guys who have said kmart had the potential to be a star? Were you also the ones who thought Ron Artest could blossom into a #1?

No actually, we are not. And that should give people who cannot or will not see the talent on this squad some pause. Special talents come along ever so very rarely. When you've been watching the game for decades and a guy comes into the league and does things you haven't seen form a player of that size/type before, your eyebrows go up. In some ways I think the longer you have watched, the more players you have seen and go, the easier it is to spot greatness as oppsoed to goodness because you know how rare what you are seeing is, and its all the more impressive when you do.

And as an aside Dwight Howard, this year, was probably better than ANY HOFer in history has been at age 20-21. If you had Jordan himself, let alone Kobe, or Hakeem or whoever you wanted on this current squad you could have started this same thread, and said hey Dwight Howard is better than our guy! Let's trade Kobe and Admiral for him! But as a rook he was 12pts 10reb and basically just a dunker. And doubtless some tool over on their webiste at the time probably had a thread suggesting they trade him for Elton Brand because Elton was putting up better numbers.

P.S. as an aside Cousins has tremendous shooting touch for a 20yr old post playing center. One day when he gets in shape for a full campaign, has figured out good shots from bad, and is taking most of thos as catch and shoots and pick and pops he's going to be deadly.

P.P.S. your continued inability to get it regarding our own players is ridiculous.

 

[Glenn]

I am willing to put up with all of Cousins' bad decisions. I think he has to try everything he thinks he can do. Sometimes it will be a turnover and sometimes it will be a brilliant play.

I just want him to go at it this first few years. He already has matured far beyond the expectations of perhaps all of us. Who knows how far he will go? If he is learning and it isn't ruining our chance for a playoff position, it's all good for me. So far he is not hurting the team in any meaningful way.

I just laugh when he goes coast to coast and gets the ball stripped. He has to try it to figure out it doesn't work. How else is he to learn how his skills fit into the NBA?

 

[Glenn]

P.S. as an aside Cousins has tremendous shooting touch for a 20yr old post playing center. One day when he gets in shape for a full campaign, has figured out good shots from bad, and is taking most of thos as catch and shoots and pick and pops he's going to be deadly.

I picture him doing the pick and roll with Thornton with either player heading to the hoop. Deadly. Yes. At this point he doesn't set the greatest pick in the world but that will come and he'll lay a few people out flat if they aren't watching where they are going. He's 20!

 

[rhythmless]

Baja,

You are right; we don't know what PW is asking them to run. All I see are the results and sometimes lack thereof. He may be asking for cutters and not getting them when DMC sets up on the side. I agree with the rest of your post as well.

No actually, we are not. And that should give people who cannot or will not see the talent on this squad some pause. Special talents come along ever so very rarely. When you've been watching the game for decades and a guy comes into the league and does things you haven't seen form a player of that size/type before, your eyebrows go up. In some ways I think the longer you have watched, the more players you have seen and go, the easier it is to spot greatness as oppsoed to goodness because you know how rare what you are seeing is, and its all the more impressive when you do.

And as an aside Dwight Howard, this year, was probably better than ANY HOFer in history has been at age 20-21. If you had Jordan himself, let alone Kobe, or Hakeem or whoever you wanted on this current squad you could have started this same thread, and said hey Dwight Howard is better than our guy! Let's trade Kobe and Admiral for him! But as a rook he was 12pts 10reb and basically just a dunker. And doubtless some tool over on their webiste at the time probably had a thread suggesting they trade him for Elton Brand because Elton was putting up better numbers.

P.S. as an aside Cousins has tremendous shooting touch for a 20yr old post playing center. One day when he gets in shape for a full campaign, has figured out good shots from bad, and is taking most of thos as catch and shoots and pick and pops he's going to be deadly.

P.P.S. your continued inability to get it regarding our own players is ridiculous.

I'm not comparing Dwight's play today to DMC/Reke's play today. I am taking into account the question marks that follow these two players. They are grade A talents, but they have also shown some character issues that are unsettling enough that they may keep these guys out of star range for their entire career. I don't see gym rats, I don't see guys who live and breathe basketball like a KD.

Let me be clear; Tyreke had a down year due to injuries. DMC has progressed a lot in terms of his body and play throughout this year. Tyreke has advanced body control and footwork, but guys are picking up on his limited variety of moves and stopping them. DMC has, at times, too much. These guys have as good a shot as any at superstardom. The only limit they have are themselves. I get what we have. But there are a lot of question marks as to what they will become. I'm not sure how far back we have to go to find a big with so much promise as well as problems. I see the media bias looking for this stuff to write about, but we have also seen that DMC instigates a lot of these things on his own.

Unless DMC can lower his jump shots from 60% of his field goals (everyone can agree that that is way too much, right?) and not be a daily risk for double digits in Turnovers, and I see not even point guard playmaking, but regular basketball playmaking decisions from Tyreke, as well as a healthy season, I'm going with the superstar.

PS: Dwight does not have an all star next to him. Nelson is oft injured and hit or miss. Hedo turned in a couple masterful seasons then cashed in. JRich is ho hum now. Bass is a poor man's Milsap. He has Ryan Anderson backing him up for god sakes. Gilbert hasn't lived up to his billing.

Look at these playoff teams:
LAkers - Kobe, Pau, Bynum, Odom
Miami - Big 3
Bos - Big 4
Chi - Rose, Boozer, Noah
OKC - Durant, Westbrook
NY - Amare, Melo
ATL - JJ, Smoove, Horford
DAL - Dirk, Kidd, Jet

All have better second man than Jameer. In fact, I would argue that Dwight is doing the most with the least out of the entire league. The only playoff/contending teams with a superstar with a possibly weaker supporting cast would be Dallas and NO.

I don't think I don't "get" what we have. But you look at what Dwight has done, and I'm not sure eveyrone gets what he has been able to do. I will admit I gloss over our team's promise and focus moreso on their faults, but it's akin to tough love. You are more critical of the ones you expect more out of, and I am hoping for great things from our guys. Call me a pessimist. Just don't say I don't get them.

 

[bajaden]

No actually, we are not. And that should give people who cannot or will not see the talent on this squad some pause. Special talents come along ever so very rarely. When you've been watching the game for decades and a guy comes into the league and does things you haven't seen form a player of that size/type before, your eyebrows go up. In some ways I think the longer you have watched, the more players you have seen and go, the easier it is to spot greatness as oppsoed to goodness because you know how rare what you are seeing is, and its all the more impressive when you do.

And as an aside Dwight Howard, this year, was probably better than ANY HOFer in history has been at age 20-21. If you had Jordan himself, let alone Kobe, or Hakeem or whoever you wanted on this current squad you could have started this same thread, and said hey Dwight Howard is better than our guy! Let's trade Kobe and Admiral for him! But as a rook he was 12pts 10reb and basically just a dunker. And doubtless some tool over on their webiste at the time probably had a thread suggesting they trade him for Elton Brand because Elton was putting up better numbers.

P.S. as an aside Cousins has tremendous shooting touch for a 20yr old post playing center. One day when he gets in shape for a full campaign, has figured out good shots from bad, and is taking most of thos as catch and shoots and pick and pops he's going to be deadly.

P.P.S. your continued inability to get it regarding our own players is ridiculous.

I think the grass always looks greener. I've been guilty of it myself from time to time. And some of the ideas I had that didn't happen were bad ideas. So its a good thing they didn't happen. You've got to take the bad with the good. But just for the record, i personally never thought of Martin as a superstar, or even a star, period. I did think we got a lot of value for where he was picked and what he turned out to be. And no doubt, that on the right team, he's a very valuable player. As for Ron Artest, I thought he was a very good defensive player, but someone shoot me, if I ever thought of him as the number one option. Maybe number three, and on a very good team, number four. Now I'm sure Ron Ron thought of himself as a number one option.

Here's what I don't get. Why be critical of fans for getting excited about the potential of their young players. So what if they over estimate their abilities to some extent. I mean for heaven sakes, its their team! Isn't that what being a fan is all about? The fans aren't the one's making the decisions, so what they think doesn't really matter. So why rain on their parade? I'm excited about the future of this team. That doesn't mean I'm not a realist. Sure, I'd love to have Dwight Howard. But call me crazy, I'd rather see how what we have plays out. Now if Howard wants to come and sign with us after next season, I'll welcome him with open arms. I'd love to see Cousins and Howard in our frontcourt together with Dally and JT coming off the bench. I can picture Cousins make slick passes to Howard cutting to the basket for a dunk. Nice dream. Probably not close to reality.

 

[Glenn]

Here's what I don't get. Why be critical of fans for getting excited about the potential of their young players. So what if they over estimate their abilities to some extent. I mean for heaven sakes, its their team! Isn't that what being a fan is all about?

"Fan" from the word "fanatic." Rationality is nice when discussing most topics and I certainly prefer rational discussion than anything else but I suspect I could find a definition of "fan" that says fans can be a bit irrational. GOOD!! FUN!!

 

[Jespher]

As the opening poster it's interesting to see the direction this thread has taken. I agree that the futures for both Dwight and DeMarcus are very bright indeed, and that it would be great to have either one of them on the team long term, Dwight for his current dominance and endurance to avoid injury, and DeMarcus for his exciting potential.

My initial idea for this thread was more of a comment to the post "Decision" climate of the NBA where stars have more of a say if they will stay, and reactionary teams planning ahead and fearful of losing superstars for nothing (and the resulting long rebuilds...). Given that premise, I was wondering if it would be worthwhile for the Kings to pursue Dwight Howard for everything not names Evans or Cousins. Others have said that that would just not be enough to sway Orlando to trade their superstar, but that has been the standard rate for stars lately:

Deron Williams to New Jersey Trade
Carmello Anthony to New York Trade
Al Jefferson to Utah Trade

A couple seasons ago you could also make a case for these trades as relevant as well:

Kevin Garnett to Boston Trade
Ray Allen to Boston Trade
Pau Gasol to Los Angeles Trade
Shaquille O'Neal to Miami

The Heat were able to keep Wade while getting O'Neal, the Lakers were able to keep Bryant while getting Gasol, the Jazz were able to add Jefferson while keeping Williams (albeit temporarily), and the Knicks were able to keep Stoudemire while adding Anthony. There is obviously a history of these trades going down, especially if the star's current team is worried they will look elsewhere in free agency. Having said that I was curious what packages might be necessary to pry Dwight Howard from the Magic, and if it would be worth the Kings while to make that investment now, or hold fast, resign Dalembert, and look for a small forward. Basically, should they swing for the fences to try to get a resigned Howard to pair with Evans, Cousins, and optimally Thornton while wading through the resulting lack of depth over the next few seasons, or should they hold the line and continue to ride their two stars to prominence via the Oklahoma City method?

 

[rhythmless]

Others have said that that would just not be enough to sway Orlando to trade their superstar, but that has been the standard rate for stars lately:

Deron Williams to New Jersey Trade
Carmello Anthony to New York Trade
Al Jefferson to Utah Trade

A couple seasons ago you could also make a case for these trades as relevant as well:

Kevin Garnett to Boston Trade
Ray Allen to Boston Trade
Pau Gasol to Los Angeles Trade
Shaquille O'Neal to Miami

Dwill: They gave up a big w/immense potential (no headcase issues either), a good (bibby level) pg and 2 picks. Our Favors would be DMC, and we have no one that is near bubble level all star save Reke. This is also a trade for Dwill w/out an extension. So from that trade, and giving Howard extra trade value, DMC and reke would have to be included.

Melo: Wilson (starting level young w/potential), Felton (starting level young w/potential and a monster season), Danilo (starting level w/potential as best shooter in NBA), Mozgov (young scrub big). Do we have any starting level youngs w/potential equal to these 3? Save DMC/Reke, you could only make a case for Thornton and Casspi. Casspi is not the level of the other 3 and Thornton only showed his production for 20 games. Again, we don't have enough talent to make the trade. Also, Dwight>Melo and Melo handicapped the entire process by saying, NY or bust. Will Dwight say that? Def not.

Al: Not a number 1 star. Marginal star. Not comparable. Add in Kahn and mismatch w/Klove and you have a good trade to pry a servicable big away for little. Dwight is a full level above Al.

Garnett: He was around 30 at the time of the trade, not 24. They also gave up a big with immense potential at the time (Al) and a borderline starter/bench guy with a lot of potential at the time (Green). Green was about Casspi production and with his athleticism he was also predicted to be really good (see how not all guys w/potential work out?). So he was Casspi and Greene put together at the time of the trade. Gomes was a second year player getting 12/6, so around Casspi as well. Again, 3 young kids with potential and production, one predicted as a surefire all star and 2 with good potential. For a 30 year old player.

Ray: 32 years old. Rebuilding team. Got a top 5 pick with immense potential (Green). 32 years old.

Pau: Lakers. Wallace. Worst trade in history. Anomaly.

Shaq: 32 years old. Caron was a 3rd year player putting up 16/6, so possible all star. Interestingly enough, he never got better. Lamar put up 17/10/4/1 in his 5th year, so again, another possible all star player and had all the potential in the world. Again, did not fulfill his potential.

So in summation, even with over the hill stars, you have to give up potential all stars. As a sidenote, please also notice the general attitude toward the young kids that were traded; possible all star with potential. Progress is not guaranteed and guys frequently do not progress as fans think they would. Given history, you should usually go for the sure thing, given the chance.

 

[bajaden]

As the opening poster it's interesting to see the direction this thread has taken. I agree that the futures for both Dwight and DeMarcus are very bright indeed, and that it would be great to have either one of them on the team long term, Dwight for his current dominance and endurance to avoid injury, and DeMarcus for his exciting potential.

My initial idea for this thread was more of a comment to the post "Decision" climate of the NBA where stars have more of a say if they will stay, and reactionary teams planning ahead and fearful of losing superstars for nothing (and the resulting long rebuilds...). Given that premise, I was wondering if it would be worthwhile for the Kings to pursue Dwight Howard for everything not names Evans or Cousins. Others have said that that would just not be enough to sway Orlando to trade their superstar, but that has been the standard rate for stars lately:

Deron Williams to New Jersey Trade
Carmello Anthony to New York Trade
Al Jefferson to Utah Trade

A couple seasons ago you could also make a case for these trades as relevant as well:

Kevin Garnett to Boston Trade
Ray Allen to Boston Trade
Pau Gasol to Los Angeles Trade
Shaquille O'Neal to Miami

The Heat were able to keep Wade while getting O'Neal, the Lakers were able to keep Bryant while getting Gasol, the Jazz were able to add Jefferson while keeping Williams (albeit temporarily), and the Knicks were able to keep Stoudemire while adding Anthony. There is obviously a history of these trades going down, especially if the star's current team is worried they will look elsewhere in free agency. Having said that I was curious what packages might be necessary to pry Dwight Howard from the Magic, and if it would be worth the Kings while to make that investment now, or hold fast, resign Dalembert, and look for a small forward. Basically, should they swing for the fences to try to get a resigned Howard to pair with Evans, Cousins, and optimally Thornton while wading through the resulting lack of depth over the next few seasons, or should they hold the line and continue to ride their two stars to prominence via the Oklahoma City method?

If you look at all the trades you have listed, all but one involved a major market team, with Utah being the only exception. I think you have to take that into consideration when using them as examples. Unfortunately the majority of the stars in the league like the limelight, and tend to migrate in that direction. C. Webb didn't want to come here, and was basicly dragged screaming and kicking. Thankfully, it all worked out. Perhaps there's a slight chance that we could convince Howard to stay if we were to trade for him. But thats a hell of a gamble, and a much larger gamble than trading Richmond, who was on the downside of his career for C. Webb.

If you could get Howard to agree to an extension before the trade, then everything changes. But I believe the chances of that are slim and none. As I said, Howard has named the two places he wants to play in if traded, and sacramento wasn't one of them. He even said he didn't want to play in Chicago. His first choice is New York, and his second choice is L.A. Big shock huh? So if he would turn down playing in Chicago, a major market, and loaded with talent, why would he even consider coming to sacramento?

Secondly, if we were to make a trade, I think we can say for certain that Orlando is going to want either Cousins, or Evans, or both in return, and probably a first round pick, or picks as well. In other words our team would be decimated talent wise in the present, except for Howard, and in the future, as far as draft picks go. Howard would probably put more people in the seats, at least in the short term, and maybe we'd be good enough to make the playoffs, but not good enough to go anywhere once we got there.

Anyway, fun to talk about, but not going to happen.

 

[Hallama]

No chance Howard comes to Sac/Anaheim, but:

The Kings could end up big time players by using their cap space to facilitate a trade with Howard. The Kings would be rewarded with draft picks and young talent while having to pay Howard's salary for one season, then the cap space would be available again the next year. Our rich owners...oh, fook.