First off, methdxman, I think you make some excellent points, but all you basically did was type out a Kobe lovefest. I want to state up front that I'm not really arguing that at this point that Lebron is a better player than Kobe, per se, but that wasn't the question posed at the beginning of this topic. I think I can assume your answer to the question put to Rosen would be Kobe, I guess, but I see things a bit differently...
methdxman said:
Kobe vs. LeBron.
LeBron is a phenom, but he's a different kind of phenom than Kobe. To me LeBron is more of a Kevin Garnett type who is extremely efficient and fills up the stat sheet, but neither has proven consistently to dominate a game or completely change the complexion of it. They haven't yet. They don't have that kind of personality, which makes them so likeable. They're truly unselfish guys and great guys to play with, but they're not Tim Duncan or Kobe Bryant, who don't fill up the stat sheet quite as well perhaps some years, but they ultimately have the biggest impact on the game.
So KG's ridiculous ability to guard four out of five positions on the floor doesn't change the complexion of the game? Lebron's ability to act as a second PG doesn't change the complexion of the game? I think you're minimizing the talents of both of those players with this argument.
methdxman said:
The mantra/lie that keeps getting repeated over and over again is that Kobe doesn't make his teammates better. EVERY significant championship player has made their teammates better somehow, especially Kobe Bryant. There is NO WAY Kobe shoots 20 + shots per game during the 3 year championship run and has the ball as much as he does, but doesn't make his teammates better... there's no way that Lakers win 3 titles. This mantra is just so ridiculous. Kobe made ALL his teammates better, even Shaq he helped make dominant.
Kobe certainly helped make other players better, but I'd argue that Shaq constantly drawing double teams each and every time he touched the ball had more to do with the other Lakers being better players.
methdxman said:
I've never seen LeBron/Wade have games that Kobe has had WITH SHAQ OR WITHOUT. You have to remember Kobe went on his historical run in 2003 with Shaq sitting out a lot of games. The whole with or without Shaq argument, I feel, can only be applied to championships in the future. What's clear is that Kobe has to be easily one of the best players in the league. Easily. Even without Shaq you have to put him up there with Duncan and KG.
Yes, Kobe is easily one of the top 5 players in this league (I don't really think there is a dominant player in the league this year that is just head and shoulders about the rest of the great players, although I'll grant that Kobe is making a strong push these last few games, as is TMac). But let's give Lebron and even Wade a little time (say, more than one and three-quarters seasons) to have some impact. I'd wager in his first two years Kobe had much less impact on the league than either Lebron of Wade, and logic seems to dictate that both of those players have not yet reached their full potential.
methdxman said:
To see the media's bias against Kobe you should look at who they are considering MVP's. First of all, no one playing in the east besides Shaq should be considered an MVP candidate. But we always hear talk about LeBron and Iverson being MVP candidates? Please. If you include LeBron and Iverson you HAVE to include Kobe. I'm not saying Kobe is MVP this year, but the bias is ridiculous.
Kobe only has himself to blame for this bias as people, rightly or wrongly, haven't forgotten CO just yet. Lebron is doing amazing things for a 20 year old, and AI is averaging close to 30 ppg and 8 assists per game, which was last done by a guy named Jordan. Granted, AI's team has a terrible record, which would, imho, take him out of all consideration.
methdxman said:
If you switched Kobe with Cleveland they would for sure have a better record than they do now with LeBron. Kobe knows how to win period. And of COURSE he would utilize Z properly. He played with a center for all his career, of course he's gonna make Z better. Now I'm not saying Bron is a chump, he makes his teammates better and he is just a very skilled, efficient player, and probably a top 5 player at this point. But the difference between Kobe and LeBron is still pretty large if you think realistically. Just watch these two past games that the Lakers played on the road and Bron and Wade have never even dreamt about playing this well (Kobe).
See, I don't think Kobe would use Big Z properly. Big Z isn't Shaq, and I think that if it weren't for 1) Phil Jackson and 2) Shaq, Kobe would have plenty of times not used Shaq properly if he didn't think it was "right" from his perspective. Big Z is a fine post player, but he is no Shaq, he doesn't command the respect that Shaq commands, and Paul Silas, while a good coach, is no Phil Jackson seeing as he hasn't guided any teams to titles. It's all conjecture, of course, but I just don't see Kobe being unselfish enough to let a guy like Big Z get as many touches as he gets with Lebron.
methdxman said:
They're just too young and too inexperienced to be close to Kobe yet.
Again, I don't think the question was who is the best player at this point, but which player would you build a team around. To me, I'm going with Lebron, as he is better, imho, at making his teammates better than Kobe is, even at this point in his career. No one has EVER done anything like Lebron is doing at his age, and I think, barring injury, Lebron will only get better. He doesn't even have a consistent outside shot just yet, but the difference from last year and this year is clearly noticeable. Not to mention the fact that he won't reach his full athletic peak for another 5 years or so --- that's just scary considering that he is already one of the best athletes in the NBA.
methdxman said:
Kobe has a lot of miles on his body but you have to also take into account that he's only 26 years old still. Right now he's playing the best basketball of his career, and with the exception of last year, every consecutive year people would be saying that about Kobe. He's still improving, and he has proven lately that no other guard or even small forward has the POST game that he has. Another thing added to his arsenal.
I think you make a good point here in that Kobe has done an excellent job of expanding his game over the years -- any reason why you think Lebron won't do the same thing? Does he lack the drive/desire/heart to do so? I haven't seen anything that would indicate that he isn't going to work his rear end off to make people put his name together or above every other perimeter player to have ever played the game by the time he is through with his career.
methdxman said:
Anyway, Wade is not close to Kobe or LeBron's level. LeBron is closer to Kobe than Wade is to LeBron, but the difference, media hype aside, is still greater than what most might think. LeBron calling Kobe the "greatest player in the world" is not just a humble guy trying to be modest, it's a statement from a really modest and HONEST guy. He knows there are things that Kobe has done in games that he has yet to even dream about. That's what makes LeBron such a good player, he works at the game just like all the greats.
Lebron understands that right now Kobe is a better player than he is. I don't think there's any shame in admitting that.
methdxman said:
I think when it's all said and done we won't really ever be able to compare LeBron and Kobe because to me LeBron is a more talented Grant Hill... (Although if you look at Grant Hill's stats he once averaged i think 22 points, almost 10 rebounds and 7 assists one season which you can argue is one of the best single season's ever in recent history) LeBron is better than Hill but you can see wehre I'm going with it. LeBron overall probably has better court vision than Kobe has ever had, but Kobe is no slouch in that department. Time and time again he has delivered great passes. LeBron might not ever be the scorer that Kobe has been. LeBron has shown flashes of that mentality but he prefers to pass mainly. They are both exceptional world class athletes but I think Kobe even at 26 to Bron's 20 is a lot more agile.
Granted, Grant Hill was no slouch in the athletic ability department, but I'd wager that Lebron is as good an athlete if not better than Grant. And I think you make a fair comparison, but let's not forget that a guy named Magic dominated the league for a couple of years as well, and he wasn't a score first guy, either.
methdxman said:
Last but not least. It's clear that Shaq has no bearing on whether or not Kobe is clutch or not. It's just something you're born with. It's clear, even with people who hate Kobe, that his resume for clutch plays is longer than Wilt Chamberlain's black book. This is not even disputable.
Kobe is certainly a clutch player. But I'd still be willing to bet that Lebron will get his first title before Kobe gets his next title, presuming that Shaq doesn't come back to the Lakers next year. No, I'm not saying Shaq would bring a title with him, but other than the Pistons and the Rockets, very rarely has a team won a title without two legitimate superstars. And if neither player is ever paired with another player of that caliber, maybe neither guy wins a title (in Kobe's case, again). But I think Lebron even at this point in his career does a much better job of getting more from his teammates than Kobe does.
Part 2 to follow (I got a little wordy in my response)...
Kobe all the way he is better defensively then the other two. He better offensivley and is more clutch then either. It is a no brainer Kobe is the best and most skilled player in the game today.
