Draft remorse: WCS over ____________(split)

[Iced Espresso]

I think that everyone knew that WCS was not/is not a very good rebounder. He is here for 1 reason - to be a defensive specialist. I am okay with it because it has been so long since we have had any 1 player that could really lock down on great players. Artest is the last one I think.

I am hoping that WCS can do 1 thing for us - make life hell for the opposing team's best player.

Pretty much, or just general team defense.

He expends a lot of energy moving around quite a bit and running the floor. He is likely to be the guy who helps and changes shots or forces one extra pass etc. His numbers will probably never be high do to how he plays. Now if he has to guard the post and fails frequently to get that particular rebound, or can't seem to block out on free throws, things like that I'll be concerned. Not while he is roaming, switching, running, etc.

 

[Chubbs]

Yeah. I answer a1, a2, and a3.

troll
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument

I think the 6 eye rolls (edit: 3) did it for me. Mocking and misstating legitimate positions taken out of context intentionally with numerous eye rolls is pretty much the definition Of trolling.

And whether it was deliberate or not does not matter to me. I choose to believe a guy who has been posting here for at least a decade knows EXACTLY what he's doing. Let's not be naive.

 

[Amit149]

And it's not wrong to label that tactic a strawman fallacy. Quoting words out of context and/or oversimplifying are essential elements to it. Some even go as far as engaging in Reductio ad absurdum or, worse yet, ad hominem.

All you said is good and well, only the Capt factorial message goes to show there was no real "strawman" made in his post, and there was no "quoting words out of context and/or oversimplifying"- if anything a lot of you are basically making a "strawman" by choosing to oversimplify the things he said (choosing option's a instead of b) and claim he made a "strawman".

I have no idea where you saw something even resembling of what can be interpreted as "ad hominem" in kingster's post.
And if we really want to go into it the definition of "ad hominem":
"it is a fallacy in which a claim or argument is dismissed on the basis of some irrelevant fact or supposition about the author or the person being criticized."- it can't be found in Kingster's post, but might be found in the posts criticizing him- which are taking a very weird interpretation of the things he said and dismissing his arguments because of claims that goes against him personally and are not relevant.

 

[Chubbs]

All you said is good and well, only the Capt factorial message goes to show there was no real "strawman" made in his post, and there was no "quoting words out of context and/or oversimplifying"- if anything a lot of you are basically making a "strawman" by choosing to oversimplify the things he said (choosing option's a instead of b) and claim he made a "strawman".

I have no idea where you saw something even resembling of what can be interpeted as "ad hominem" in kingster's post.
And if we really want to go into it the definition of "ad hominem":
"it is a fallacy in which a claim or argument is dismissed on the basis of some irrelevant fact or supposition about the author or the person being criticized."- it can't be found in Kingster's post, but might be found in the posts criticizing him- which are taking a very weird interpetation of the things he said and dismissing his arguments because of claims that goes against him personally and are not relevant.

Every statement he made was a straw man. Cap'n fantastic proved it already.

You're not going to find a quote from me saying he doesn't need to rebound cause cousins will get them all, cause I never said it. Neither did anyone else. I said "I don't think playing with Koufos and Cousins rebounding will be an issue."

He summarized as "Cousins is going to do all the rebounding."

If you think those two statements are the same thing then I give up.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

I have no idea where you saw something even resembling of what can be interpeted as "ad hominem" in kingster's post.

And I have no idea what you read in my post that suggests he engaged in any of those tactics. I simply acknowledged to Dime dropper that his perception of what occurred can indeed be referred to as a strawman fallacy. Whether that is what actually happened or not is another topic. I gave up reading Kingster's contributions to the board a long time ago so I can't say one way or the other.

Lastly, the reference to ad hominem wasn't directed at any particular individual hence the use of the word "Some". It was merely an acknowledgement of some of the other types of tactics that are routinely used on message boards, including this one. I find it rather humorous that you have tried to turn it around on me simply because you didn't comprehend what you read.

 

[Bricklayer]

There are definitely 100% without a doubt people coloring their analysis here with external agenda driven gunk. Oh they didn't hire the guy I wanted, oh they didn't draft the guy I wanted, oh they didn't follow the rebuild plan I wanted. Its slathered in a bunch of posts, and each and every person on this board knows exactly which posts and which agendas are represented. Whether the particular post in question was representative or not I choose not to opine.

And its silly. Vlade is here, and winning the day. WCS is here and will absolutely 100% be the same player no matter whether he is run down by somebody or pumped up by somebody. Persisting in coloring analysis out of peevishness is just an exercise in wasted ego. You can't change anything by it. You can just dig yourself a credibility hole.

BTW, whoever this announcer is who keeps on urging WCS to demand the ball and go be an All Star is sadly confused., Does he think that is going to go on with Cousins on the floor? And if not, what's the point. Makes WCS poorly designed to carry a bad summer league team, but its the defensive intensity that needs to be there for our regular season (a bit scattered in this game), not any of this call for the ball stuff. Stars do that. But WCS may never be a bigger part of the offense than JT was.

 

[SacTownKid]

The only thing that is kind of worrisome to me is Cauley-Stein looking gassed so easily. He keeps calling out after like 5 minutes. Is that something to do with his sickle cell trait or just poor conditioning? It's not like he's playing all out, all the time or anything.

 

[Amit149]

Every statement he made was a straw man. Cap'n fantastic proved it already.

You're not going to find a quote from me saying he doesn't need to rebound cause cousins will get them all, cause I never said it. Neither did anyone else. I said "I don't think playing with Koufos and Cousins rebounding will be an issue."

He summarized as "Cousins is going to do all the rebounding."

If you think those two statements are the same thing then I give up.

Come on now, you want to tell me you read "Cousins is going to do all the rebounding" and thought he meant others was okay with him getting 0 rebounds? really? that is a weird intepretation.

There was many posts claiming that WCS rebounding is not an issue next to cousins:
"Can't wait to see Cuz controlling boards and WCS getting out on the FB"
"But with Boogie munching them up that's ok for us"
"Next to Cuz that is fine. If Willie has a 1 rebound game, you know Boogie is probably pulling 20 +."

 

[Iced Espresso]

The only thing that is kind of worrisome to me is Cauley-Stein looking gassed so easily. He keeps calling out after like 5 minutes. Is that something to do with his sickle cell trait or just poor conditioning? It's not like he's playing all out, all the time or anything.

That's concerning, but if you are deep enough it may not be a bad idea to push him hard early and often. But even so I'd think you could get more minutes than he has been giving. Maybe precautionary too with injury risk on summer league or something like that hopefully.

 

[Bricklayer]

The only thing that is kind of worrisome to me is Cauley-Stein looking gassed so easily. He keeps calling out after like 5 minutes. Is that something to do with his sickle cell trait or just poor conditioning? It's not like he's playing all out, all the time or anything.

Was he calling himself out? Or is the coaching staff calling him out?

 

[sactownfan]

Was he calling himself out? Or is the coaching staff calling him out?

I didn't see him calling out.

 

[Chubbs]

Oh I definitely know who has what agenda. And I know my own, and it regards Karl and the way he got this job, but I've tabled that for awhile.

Some are against vlade, and some people would rather be right than see wcs succeed. I'm neither of those. But I think we are well aware of who falls into what camp.

I didn't see WCS calling out either fwiw. My god what an ugly second half.

 

[funkykingston]

I'd think the coaching staff were the ones limiting his minutes. Very easy for a guy like WCS to get hurt in a meaningless and sloppy summer league game.

 

[SacTownKid]

Was he calling himself out? Or is the coaching staff calling him out?

I'm pretty sure I saw him motion over to the bench I think the 2nd quarter and I watched that interview he did after one of the games and he said something about going hard until you can't go anymore which was directly related to his substitution pattern.

 

[Livinthedream]

Oh I definitely know who has what agenda. And I know my own, and it regards Karl and the way he got this job, but I've tabled that for awhile.

Some are against vlade, and some people would rather be right than see wcs succeed. I'm neither of those. But I think we are well aware of who falls into what camp.

I didn't see WCS calling out either fwiw. My god what an ugly second half.

Nobody wants WCS to fail.

 

[Warhawk]

I don't know about you, but when I read that post from Kingster, I interpreted his statements as B1, B2, and B3. I believe that I showed you that the B version of each statement was in fact made in this very thread. You seem to be interpreting his statements as the extreme A versions, and I have no idea why. I don't think those are reasonable interpretations at all. Perhaps it's the eye-rollies that have got you upset, I don't know.

At any rate, I don't think anybody needs to agree with Kingster's distaste for those arguments. (For my part, I have no distaste for B2 (seems commonsense to me), and I'm on the fence about B1 and B3 - both seem reasonable as far as they go but I'd certainly like to WCS get as many rebounds as possible and I can see how we might be hurt if he doesn't turn out to be a good rebounder.) But the idea that his summaries of the arguments he didn't like twisted those arguments into extremes, or that he was "trolling" (as stated by Chubbs) - well, I don't think either of those is true. What Kingster did seems to me no different that what is done in dozens of posts a week by dozens of different people.

Actually, the combination of his use of qualifiers ("not going to get rebounds" vs. "not going to get many rebounds" and "all the rebounding" vs. "majority of rebounding") and the sarcastic eye-rolls made me think that at least two "A" answers were at least "reasonable" when I read it (specifically A2 and A3). Maybe your interpretation of reasonable and what another reads into it can be different based on interpreted tone, previous posts, inferred argument, and the sarcastic eye-rolls?

 

[hrdboild]

I just wish people would knock off the bullcrap and just analyze basketball. I mean how conceited do you have to be to believe that people who disagree with you must have some ulterior motive to do so? Everybody brings certain prejudices into their arguments. You can accept that they exist and try your best to be objective or you can lie to yourself and think that you alone are above it.

 

[lawlman91]

 

[kingsboi]

I'm not expecting godly, video game numbers from Cauley Stein....his impact will go beyond what the fans can view in the box score and can only recognize if they watch the game.

 

[ElRey]

I just wish people would knock off the bullpoopoo and just analyze basketball. I mean how conceited do you have to be to believe that people who disagree with you must have some ulterior motive to do so? Everybody brings certain prejudices into their arguments. You can accept that they exist and try your best to be objective or you can lie to yourself and think that you alone are above it.

Is this the start of something like the Tyreke versus Ricky Rubio fighting again? This time it's WCS versus Mudiay. A lot of how a rookie does depends on the situation he is thrown in. Now with all this Ty Lawson troubles, I suspect Mudiay is going to be given the reigns to the Denver Nuggets and can do whatever he wants, giving him a good opportunity to win Rookie of the Year.

Then we going to get all these "told y ou so" boasts from people. But of course, I would much rather have a Kings win in the playoffs than any Rookie of the Year award.

 

[hrdboild]

Is this the start of something like the Tyreke versus Ricky Rubio fighting again? This time it's WCS versus Mudiay. A lot of how a rookie does depends on the situation he is thrown in. Now with all this Ty Lawson troubles, I suspect Mudiay is going to be given the reigns to the Denver Nuggets and can do whatever he wants, giving him a good opportunity to win Rookie of the Year.

Then we going to get all these "told y ou so" boasts from people. But of course, I would much rather have a Kings win in the playoffs than any Rookie of the Year award.

For god's sake, not liking Cauley-Stein has nothing to do with Mudiay! Nothing! I'm so sick of people just assuming this is the case when it's not even remotely true. Not even 1%.

I'll break it down for you:

1) I really like Mudiay.
2) I don't like Cauley-Stein.

That does not mean that one is the cause of the other.
Really think about this for a second -- it's perfectly reasonable.

Why do I like Mudiay? I've explained this at length.
Why do I not like Cauley-Stein? I've explained this at length too.
Both before and after the draft.
And it should go without saying, but this also has nothing to do with them as people.
Only the way they play basketball.

I was upset on draft day that we passed on a lot of different prospects that I liked better than Cauley-Stein, Mudiay was just one of them. Here's 5 more: Stanley Johnson, Myles Turner, Kelly Oubre, Devin Booker, Bobby Portis. Whether Mudiay is successful or not in Denver isn't going to change my opinion about drafting Cauley-Stein being a mistake. Same thing with those other 5 players, though I will continue to watch all of their careers. The only thing that would change my opinion about that is if Willie himself plays well and proves my doubts about his abilities to be unfounded.

Furthermore, I'm going to continue to praise good play when I see it and criticize poor play when I see it regardless of whichever jersey the player has on. I'd like to think that a positive comment about one player won't be taken as an intentional dig at another one, but it seems that may be asking too much. So let me just state this clearly and precisely for the last time so that anyone who wants to say it from now on is calling me a liar:

I have no agenda whatsoever for liking certain players over other ones. I'm not giddily pouring over boxscores wishing failure on anyone. I'm merely watching basketball and stating my reactions to what transpires. Whether or not I see the same things that you see, at least criticize my analysis for what it is, not some BS imaginary vendetta that never even existed in the first place!

 

[Telemachus]

For god's sake, not liking Cauley-Stein has nothing to do with Mudiay! Nothing! I'm so sick of people just assuming this is the case when it's not even remotely true. Not even 1%.

I'll break it down for you:

1) I really like Mudiay.
2) I don't like Cauley-Stein.

That does not mean that one is the cause of the other.
Really think about this for a second -- it's perfectly reasonable.

Why do I like Mudiay? I've explained this at length.
Why do I not like Cauley-Stein? I've explained this at length too.
Both before and after the draft.
And it should go without saying, but this also has nothing to do with them as people.
Only the way they play basketball.

I was upset on draft day that we passed on a lot of different prospects that I liked better than Cauley-Stein, Mudiay was just one of them. Here's 5 more: Stanley Johnson, Myles Turner, Kelly Oubre, Devin Booker, Bobby Portis. Whether Mudiay is successful or not in Denver isn't going to change my opinion about drafting Cauley-Stein being a mistake. Same thing with those other 5 players, though I will continue to watch all of their careers. The only thing that would change my opinion about that is if Willie himself plays well and proves my doubts about his abilities to be unfounded.

Furthermore, I'm going to continue to praise good play when I see it and criticize poor play when I see it regardless of whichever jersey the player has on. I'd like to think that a positive comment about one player won't be taken as an intentional dig at another one, but it seems that may be asking too much. So let me just state this clearly and precisely for the last time so that anyone who wants to say it from now on is calling me a liar:

I have no agenda whatsoever for liking certain players over other ones. I'm not giddily pouring over boxscores wishing failure on anyone. I'm merely watching basketball and stating my reactions to what transpires. Whether or not I see the same things that you see, at least criticize my analysis for what it is, not some BS imaginary vendetta that never even existed in the first place!

What makes you think people are always talking about you?

 

[lawlman91]

 

[KingsFanGER]

After watching summer league I understand some of the criticism regarding Willie. And I had no agenda about who the Kings should draft, cause I dont follow college basketball and only watched some youtube videos about the top picks.

What I really like about Willie is his speed and agility. Boy what an athlete! And he looks coordinated enough to finish easy looks on offense. He looks like a very good fit next to Cousins.

But there a some things I dont like at all. Of course those things arent set in stone, so it doesnt mean that he isnt the right player for the Kings moving forward.
He looks lost out there sometimes, just paying poor attention to the game on defense and offense, resulting in getting beat by his man or being a step late on rotations or on box outs.
He is not aggressive enough besides some breath taking blocks.

Overall he looks like a player so used to his athletic advantage, that he didnt pay too much attention on learning some basketball fundamentals like fighting for a good rebounding position or playing good team defense.
Great defensive players like Allen, Smart or Chandler just think defense on another level. They know how a play develops before it actually happens, they know where to be on the floor to take advantage. They play defense with their head first.
Right now to me it looks like Willie plays defense with his physical gifts first, but has a lot to learn headwise to really be the great defender we all hope he is going to be.

 

[Siranthony]

WCS's speed , athleticism and determination will lead to him being very good IMO. Just watch those over zealous moves leading to falls that can lead to injury.

 

[Livinthedream]

After watching summer league I understand some of the criticism regarding Willie. And I had no agenda about who the Kings should draft, cause I dont follow college basketball and only watched some youtube videos about the top picks.

What I really like about Willie is his speed and agility. Boy what an athlete! And he looks coordinated enough to finish easy looks on offense. He looks like a very good fit next to Cousins.

But there a some things I dont like at all. Of course those things arent set in stone, so it doesnt mean that he isnt the right player for the Kings moving forward.
He looks lost out there sometimes, just paying poor attention to the game on defense and offense, resulting in getting beat by his man or being a step late on rotations or on box outs.
He is not aggressive enough besides some breath taking blocks.

Overall he looks like a player so used to his athletic advantage, that he didnt pay too much attention on learning some basketball fundamentals like fighting for a good rebounding position or playing good team defense.
Great defensive players like Allen, Smart or Chandler just think defense on another level. They know how a play develops before it actually happens, they know where to be on the floor to take advantage. They play defense with their head first.
Right now to me it looks like Willie plays defense with his physical gifts first, but has a lot to learn headwise to really be the great defender we all hope he is going to be.

Thanks for your basketball analysis. I can't think of a player under 27 that doesn't have something they can improve. The players over 27 have things they can improve, they just probably won't.

 

[King Baller]

For a player with WCS's talents Summer League is just a warm up. The old saw "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas" applies to Summer League appropriately I think.

Remember when Donte Greene scored 40 points in Vegas a few years back? How did that translate? What about the last years Kings SL ship? How did those events play out in the scope of the Kings main game schedule?

For Coaches and Young Players SL is a time for evaluating young talent and gaining a little experience. It is also a time to be very careful with minutes played. An eighteen minute restriction seems about right.

So no hand wringing from me. I like WCS and I am not worried one bit

 

[sono]

I watched a glimpse of the summer league. Only thing that stood out to my untrained eye was WCS is easily boxed out and doesn't fight for position, no wonder his low rebounding stat.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

What makes you think people are always talking about you?

Let's be fair to @hrdboild, it's entirely reasonable to believe that someone is talking about/to you, when they quote your post directly.

 

[ESP47]

Karl Anthony Towns per36 Summer League stats

15.1 points (FG 42%)
8.8 reb
2.2 blocks

Willie Cauley-Stein per36 Summer League stats

20.2 points (FG 51%)
8.1 reb
5 blocks