Did Lebron James Make the Right Decision?
- Thread starter ElRey
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I kind of assumed you were including me in your post, I apologize if that wasn't the case.
I think the Cavs have plenty of good players, but I do understand the arguments that the Cavs didn't have much else in big scoring threats other than LeBron. LeBron's game doesn't make that easy to do though, just look at how much of a challenge it was to incorporate Antawn Jamison's game. I do think LeBron shares some similarities to Iverson in that his offensive game is hard to complement because he dominates the ball so much. Part of that is because he's never had a coach that really challenged him offensively.
I have some criticisms about how the Knicks have managed the team so far, but it has definitely been a big step up since Isiah's tenure. They have some solid young talent, a very good coach that LeBron respects, an owner that's willing to spend big money, cap space, a huge media market, and an all-star level side kick in Amare. That's a pretty good situation for him.
As far as being in Jordan's shadow in Chicago, I think that's a bit overemphasized. Jordan's regime there ended over 10 years ago, it's in the past now. Do you think Kobe's legacy is lessened because Magic played before him? If anything his legacy may have been lessened because he played with Shaq, and that's what LeBron is doing (in a sense) by playing with Wade. I think playing on Wade's team, with Wade, hurts his legacy more than being the perceived heir to Jrodan's throne in Chicago.
I wouldn't expect him to go to the Clips, I'm only trying to say that it would've been a ballsy move.
I think the Cavs have plenty of good players, but I do understand the arguments that the Cavs didn't have much else in big scoring threats other than LeBron. LeBron's game doesn't make that easy to do though, just look at how much of a challenge it was to incorporate Antawn Jamison's game. I do think LeBron shares some similarities to Iverson in that his offensive game is hard to complement because he dominates the ball so much. Part of that is because he's never had a coach that really challenged him offensively.
I have some criticisms about how the Knicks have managed the team so far, but it has definitely been a big step up since Isiah's tenure. They have some solid young talent, a very good coach that LeBron respects, an owner that's willing to spend big money, cap space, a huge media market, and an all-star level side kick in Amare. That's a pretty good situation for him.
As far as being in Jordan's shadow in Chicago, I think that's a bit overemphasized. Jordan's regime there ended over 10 years ago, it's in the past now. Do you think Kobe's legacy is lessened because Magic played before him? If anything his legacy may have been lessened because he played with Shaq, and that's what LeBron is doing (in a sense) by playing with Wade. I think playing on Wade's team, with Wade, hurts his legacy more than being the perceived heir to Jrodan's throne in Chicago.
I wouldn't expect him to go to the Clips, I'm only trying to say that it would've been a ballsy move.
As an aside, I think there's another aspect of this question that hasn't been raised: do the Heat really stand a chance against upper echelon teams in the playoffs? Their biggest weakness, aside from depth, is going to be the front court. Bosh is nice, but what happens when he goes up alone (or with the geriatric duo of Z and Shaq) against the big rotations of the Celtics, Heat, Lakers, and Bulls? The one reason I thought Chicago was a top choice was because Boozer and Noah will be a very good frontcourt to take into battle against Gasol/Bynum/Odom or Garnett/Perkins/O'neal. Bosh is going to get exposed in a major way in the playoffs, and I'm not sure if Wade/Lebron can cover that up. LBJ may very well end up turning into a de facto PF come playoffs.
If the Heat don't get some major help up front, I don't think you can call them the clear-cut favorites to win it all. Top 5 team? No doubt. Most talented? For sure. Built to last in the playoffs? Not so much.
If the Heat don't get some major help up front, I don't think you can call them the clear-cut favorites to win it all. Top 5 team? No doubt. Most talented? For sure. Built to last in the playoffs? Not so much.
This has been one of my biggest problems with all the pundants already putting them in the Finals next year. They need a lot of help in the front court, especially on defense (won't be helped by Bosh there). And their lack of depth will have to be filled mostly by players will to take the league minimum. They can't eve count on the draft in the future, as it seems like they have given up a lot of future draft picks in getting both James and Bosh. On top of it all, they better hope that the new CBA doesn't have the hard cap that the owners all want to put in place. They won't be the only team hurt if that happens (the Lakers would take a major hit as well), but it would certainly stall their little coup down in Miami.
The bigger thing is that once the Heat are established it will be easier for them to re-up on talent. Even if LBJ goes somewhere else, mgmt is unlikely to be as bad as Cleveland.
Wade is older and chips won later on will be likely attributed more heavily to Lebron than Wade.
I also think this team is bound to break up at the end of these contracts (whether four or six years). Probably two guys stick together with the team and another moves on, whether for ego or $$. Wade could be more likely to leave because he will be 32 in four years, and signing a contract right then would be worth much more than waiting two years (32-34 seems like prime seasons for Wade to hit a serious wall and crater in value)
Likely situation is Wade & Lebron win all their rings together, but there is a good chance they win some independently.
A true hard cap would have to grandfather in current contracts and make allowances to teams that are over the cap already to keep some talent (maybe MLE with maximum years up to date X). Come 2016 they couldn't re-up all their guys, but there's no way the league breaks up a lot of teams at year 1 of the new CBA.
Which would only serve to prove that he was only able to win with another great player. Which would, in fact, support my argument, not yours.
But, I will grant you this one concession: LeBron James is subjugating himself, and becoming second banana to Dwyane Wade, in order to win championships. If he ends up leaving Miami, and goes somewhere else to become someone else's second banana... then yes, he may end up with more championships than Dwyane Wade. And he will still not be thought of as the greatest.
That is the legacy of LeBron James: he had to go to another guy's team to win. He's not going to Miami as an equal, the way that Garnett and Allen did when they ended up in Boston: he's not on equal footing with Dwyane Wade. And, he's never going to be, as long as they're on the same team. We've already seen that he can't carry a team on his own, and there's no reason to belive that that's going to be any different seven years from now, so he's going to have to go play second fiddle to somebody else to win again.
Now, there's no shame in going to be someone else's sidekick to win a championship, and that's all well and to the good when you're Robert Horry or Horace Grant, but when you're a guy who's been in the conversation for greatest ever, and you go to another guy's team to win, you are permanently, and irrevocably, taken out of that conversation.
But, I will grant you this one concession: LeBron James is subjugating himself, and becoming second banana to Dwyane Wade, in order to win championships. If he ends up leaving Miami, and goes somewhere else to become someone else's second banana... then yes, he may end up with more championships than Dwyane Wade. And he will still not be thought of as the greatest.
That is the legacy of LeBron James: he had to go to another guy's team to win. He's not going to Miami as an equal, the way that Garnett and Allen did when they ended up in Boston: he's not on equal footing with Dwyane Wade. And, he's never going to be, as long as they're on the same team. We've already seen that he can't carry a team on his own, and there's no reason to belive that that's going to be any different seven years from now, so he's going to have to go play second fiddle to somebody else to win again.
Now, there's no shame in going to be someone else's sidekick to win a championship, and that's all well and to the good when you're Robert Horry or Horace Grant, but when you're a guy who's been in the conversation for greatest ever, and you go to another guy's team to win, you are permanently, and irrevocably, taken out of that conversation.
Here's a thought: When LeBron and Bosh were introduced with Wade yesterday in Miami they weren't introduced as the King and his court or Miami has their King or any other nonsense, they were announced as The Three Kings. LeBron is no longer "The King" he is "a king". And I think it fits in with what Slim is saying - he's out of THE GOAT discussion, for now if not permanantly if he can't even be the king of his own castle.
PS. Hi Bozzwell.
PS. Hi Bozzwell.
Hey pdx. You, too, are absolutely right. I am actually saddened by all this. Not hating, or loving, just saddened. I like Le Bron'sa game so much, I really, really wanted him to impose it on the rest of the NBA and beat Kobe and Lakers (at least while Kings don't have a realistic chance of doing so) that I was gutted by his decision even though I am as far from Cavs fan as you can be. I guess, any talk of LBJ as a GOAT was only our (the fans) projections, not necessarily his own make up. Damn.
On the other hand, it is going to be so easy to justify spendign couple hundred bucks on NBA LP to my wife from now on - even my daughters now want to see the games.
One will be rooting against the Heat the other one just wants to see what the big deal is.
On the other hand, it is going to be so easy to justify spendign couple hundred bucks on NBA LP to my wife from now on - even my daughters now want to see the games.
One will be rooting against the Heat the other one just wants to see what the big deal is.When you are 36 y.o., yes, you might need another Kobe-like player to win. So, it does not support your argument. Actually, at all.
IMO Wade will be a "second banana". We will see. Life will show who is the first and who is the second. It does not matter who was there first. If they win 5 titles and LeBron gets 4-5 PO MVPs, then what? WHo will be the "second banana or apple"?
- Seven years from now, LeBron James will be thirty-two, not thirty-six. And he still will need another Kobe-like player to win. As far as Adam Morrison, even if he finds the fountain of youth, and is able to remain perpetually twenty-seven, he will never even sniff a ring without a Kobe-like player.
- As of 0125 Eastern Standard, 12 July 2010, Dwyane Wade is the only player on that team who's ever won a championship. He's the only player who's ever been a Finals MVP (that's the one that counts, and if you don't agree, ask Dirk Nowitzki or Steve Nash). It's his team, it's been his team since he was drafted, and it's gonna be his until he leaves and/or retires. He can't be the second banana: we already know that Wade is a winner, and James is not, and the difference in talent is not nearly significant enough between Wade and James that James has any hopes to usurp Wade as The Guy in Miami on the basis of talent alone. It's Wade's team, and you, me, LeBron and everybody else is going to have to suck on that and like it.
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I really don't see why lebron is looked at as a second banana to wade. Is it because wade has been on the heat longer? It's not like the heat have an established team and they're trying to work lebron into the mix. All of these guys need to learn how to play together and this team is starting from scratch. To think that lebron cannot be THE man in Miami or that he's riding wades coattails is ludacrous.
No, it's because he's been on the Heat longer AND led them to a championship, as THE guy. Quit acting like this is not important: when you're The Man on your team, and you actually win, you don't displaced from being The Man just because you get another talented player, ESPECIALLY if they haven't accomplished as much as you have. If you've NEVER won, like with Robinson, another great player can come in and usurp you as The Man, but when you've won, as THE guy, you're The Man until you hang it up. That's how that works.
Give it a rest man. I love wade. Maybe even more than lebron. But he had a pretty stacked team with a motivated shaq and they won the championship. When are people gonna realize that lebron never really had any help? And wade has had bad supporting casts lately and what's the results? First round exits and/or no playoffs(yeah I know, wade was hurt)
You keep saying lebron will always need a Kobe like teammate to win if he's not riding wades ball sacks. So where would Kobe be without shaq and gasol? No where! Wade has one ring(well deserved) but stop acting like lebron wouldn't be hoisting trophies if he had what kobes had for so long and what wade had for a couple years.
You keep saying lebron will always need a Kobe like teammate to win if he's not riding wades ball sacks. So where would Kobe be without shaq and gasol? No where! Wade has one ring(well deserved) but stop acting like lebron wouldn't be hoisting trophies if he had what kobes had for so long and what wade had for a couple years.
Put it this way: Bosh could have gone to Cleveland to play with LeBron. As hard as it is to wrap your mind around it, both Bosh and Wade could have gone to Chicago to play with Lebron - for exactly the same money/years they will get at Miami (Chicago would have to make few more moves, but it was doable - Second City was all abuzz with exactly that scenario, trust me). Bosh wouldn't sing off on a sign and trade to Cleveland. Wade wouldn't sign with the Bulls to let Gar Forman pullthe trigger on trades that would allow the Bulls to free up cap space to sign LBJ/Bosh. It is what it is - LeBron went to play for Mickey, Pat and Dwayne. It does say "Miami" on the jersey, but you can't ignore the implication.
Give it a rest man. I love wade. Maybe even more than lebron. But he had a pretty stacked team with a motivated shaq and they won the championship. When are people gonna realize that lebron never really had any help? And wade has had bad supporting casts lately and what's the results? First round exits and/or no playoffs(yeah I know, wade was hurt)
You keep saying lebron will always need a Kobe like teammate to win if he's not riding wades ball sacks. So where would Kobe be without shaq and gasol? No where! Wade has one ring(well deserved) but stop acting like lebron wouldn't be hoisting trophies if he had what kobes had for so long and what wade had for a couple years.
You keep saying lebron will always need a Kobe like teammate to win if he's not riding wades ball sacks. So where would Kobe be without shaq and gasol? No where! Wade has one ring(well deserved) but stop acting like lebron wouldn't be hoisting trophies if he had what kobes had for so long and what wade had for a couple years.
Nope. I'm saying it is suspiciously close to being done all on Dwayne Wade's terms. There. I have no hard evidence, but I think it is a reasonable assumption. Much more reasonable then assuming that there is much (if anything) that LBJ can do now that will still elevate him to anywhere near a discussion about the GOAT. Cannot be done. Not now. Maybe not ever.
i agree that i dont see why everyone has to say lebron is riding wades coat tail or play second fiddle. i would understand if lebron was old and latched on to a winning team but he is just as good if not better than wade. he joined a team that wasnt already in contention to win a championship. so by them joining the same team, they are helping each other win a ring, not sitting by lettin the other win the ring for them. like ive mentioned before it doesnt have to be a batman/robin thing, i see it as a justice league thing...for those who read comics