[DET/MIA] Just the way they like it? (Game 4)

[bozzwell]

I'd much rather see Jason Williams get a ring than Flip Saunders.

Funny you should say that, I was just thinking the same thing when Slim brought up Flip. I have nothing against the dude, nor is he on my To Hate list, but it's like he doesn't really deserve it or something.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Funny you should say that, I was just thinking the same thing when Slim brought up Flip. I have nothing against the dude, nor is he on my To Hate list, but it's like he doesn't really deserve it or something.

Strangely enough, that's exactly how I feel about half the Heat team. In fact, my sentiments towards the core of the Heat team go more or less like this:

O'Neal: A tiny part of me wants to see him prove that he can win a title without Kobe, but other than that... **** him.
Wade: Hasn't paid his dues.
Haslem: see Wade
Posey: No opinion, I guess.
Payton: Didn't begrudge him for going to the Lakers, because his original team traded him. But he showed his carpetbagger ways with what went down in Boston/Atlanta, so **** him.
Mourning: I used to like him until that **** he pulled in Toronto. Now? **** him.
Williams: Don't really have anything against him, but like I said before, I just don't want to see him get a ring before Webber.
Walker: I don't want to see this jackoff get a ring... ever.

 

[Ryle]

Possibly: I have a different theory, though:

I think it's Flip Saunders' fault.

As much as some people like to subscribe to the paradigm that "players win, coaches lose," and that Larry Brown had nothing to do with their success, the more I've seen of the Pistons (and I watched all of their games during the regular season and playoffs whenever their schedule didn't conflict with the Kings), the more I believe that Brown's coaching was actually the difference maker in the playoffs. I think that Saunders' emphasis on offense at the expense of their trademark defense has had a detrimental effect of their team. I don't think it's a coincidence that the Pistons, while scoring more points than they did while coached by either Brown or Carlisle, are also playing the worst defense that they ever have since the core of their team was brought together. I find myself disinclined to believe that any member of their core unit, all of whom are still in their respective primes, have lost a step to any significant degree, nor do I believe that they have forgotten how to play defense.

Occam's Razor dictates that leaves the coach. The more I see Detroit struggle in the playoffs, the more I believe that it's not as simple as just "moving out of the player's way," as some tend to believe, and the more I believe that Larry Brown is a better coach than some people want to give him credit for, the debacle in New York notwithstanding.

I have always said that players win games but coaches win championships and that's why there are so few active coaches(I know only one can win a year) with championships.....just my opinion.

 

[Bricklayer]

I find myself disinclined to believe that any member of their core unit, all of whom are still in their respective primes, have lost a step to any significant degree, nor do I believe that they have forgotten how to play defense.

They may not be in physical decline, but they are in serious mental/hungriness decline.

The Flip factor is hard to measure, think its there, and certainly think he is about to be punked by a far greater coach with a whole handful of rings. But Flip isn't playing, and neither are the Pistons. If he's failed in anything its in finding a way to keep his too comfortable team hungry, somethign previous coaches have never had to worry about. Think they have lost their edge. As a team full of castoffs, they always united behind the idea that they were the underdogs, weren't getting any respect, were going to out work you and "show" you. And now that's all gone. Now they are the obnoxious Lakers spouting guarantees, playing the cocky favorites who don't feel they have to play every game hard, getting bogus All-Star bids, getting full of themselves, and maybe, just maybe, starting to turn on each other a little as they look for excuses. Primed for the fall, whether it happens this series or not.

Could Brown have prevented that? Maybe. Maybe not. Mentioned several times that the Heat had Brown's Pistons beat LAST year too until Wade went down with his injury. And if Larry Brown has shown anything over his nearly 30 year career it is that he is NOT a championship coach, if there is even such a beastie without the best talent. After literally decades of falling short he finally stumbled into one when he gets a premade team and then the huge Sheed addition midseason, but there is no history of winning it all there. Just a blip. Like it appears the Piston are going to be historically now.

P.S. As an aside I'd be interested to know what year exactly Rick Carlisle has proven to be "just a regular season coach". He's only had the best team, or apparent best team, one year (the 61 win Pacers team), and injuries messed that up as much as anything (not to mention that same Pistons team then beating the Lord of the Rings himself in the Finals).

 

[LPKingsFan]

Strangely enough, that's exactly how I feel about half the Heat team. In fact, my sentiments towards the core of the Heat team go more or less like this:

O'Neal: A tiny part of me wants to see him prove that he can win a title without Kobe, but other than that... **** him.
Wade: Hasn't paid his dues.
Haslem: see Wade
Posey: No opinion, I guess.
Payton: Didn't begrudge him for going to the Lakers, because his original team traded him. But he showed his carpetbagger ways with what went down in Boston/Atlanta, so **** him.
Mourning: I used to like him until that **** he pulled in Toronto. Now? **** him.
Williams: Don't really have anything against him, but like I said before, I just don't want to see him get a ring before Webber.
Walker: I don't want to see this jackoff get a ring... ever.

Pretty much agree with all you have here. Not as much about Wade, but I completely agree about Walker. **** him indeed.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

P.S. As an aside I'd be interested to know what year exactly Rick Carlisle has proven to be "just a regular season coach". He's only had the best team, or apparent best team, one year (the 61 win Pacers team), and injuries messed that up as much as anything (not to mention that same Pistons team then beating the Lord of the Rings himself in the Finals).

A losing playoff record screams "regular season coach" to me. He might very well be a victim of "circumstance" and "bad luck," but I wonder.

I'm not buying into the opinion that injuries "messed up" that 61-win team, seeing as how every member of Indiana's core that year played 73+ games except for Tinsley, and he still managed to start every game of the playoffs that year (and average numbers that are right in line with his career playoff numbers).

I would consider Brown a better playoff coach if for no other reason than because Carlisle's teams have lost more series against teams that they were "supposed" to beat.

 

[starks]

I don't think that flip is the only reason for pistons' downfall in the play-off....the rules are changed and reefs don't allow grab-hold defense....additionally Detroit didn't make any adjustments probably because they don't know how (coach)...without their defense they are average offensive team who suddenly live and die with three point shoots.....personally, I cannot stand them and their arrogance (Billups:" we'll be fine, man....we just missed some open shoots....")......I root for suns because they share the ball and move exceptionally well without ball.....almost like king's from four years ago.....

 

[loopymitch]

:sigh:
not looking good for the Pistons. Wade is just too dam good and whatever Shaq's been taking, I need some. He's got more energy than I've seen in a long time. They need at least 3 players to have good games which they have but unfortunately not at the same time. Rip was not good and he was even worse in the second half. The fat lady has begun to warm up

 

[KingsRNumba1]

lol it is going to be dallas vs. miami

 

[Rome]

The thing with Flip is that he's a regular season coach. He doesn't make too much noise in the playoffs and he really has not impressed me this post season. The Detroit pistons have no excuse to be losing to the Heat right now. Detroit was expected to be the favor in the championship and their struggling to get their now. Most of this can be blamed on Flip.

 

[SoupIsGood]

A losing playoff record screams "regular season coach" to me. He might very well be a victim of "circumstance" and "bad luck," but I wonder.

I'm not buying into the opinion that injuries "messed up" that 61-win team, seeing as how every member of Indiana's core that year played 73+ games except for Tinsley, and he still managed to start every game of the playoffs that year (and average numbers that are right in line with his career playoff numbers).

I would consider Brown a better playoff coach if for no other reason than because Carlisle's teams have lost more series against teams that they were "supposed" to beat.

I dunno about as a Piston, but as a Pacer I don't think Rick has lost any series he was supposed to win. In fact, he's won one that he wasn't supposed to win (Boston last year).

After the Rasheed trade, the Pistons were flat-out better than the Pacers that year. There's really no getting around that, the trade vaulted them to a new level. Also, Tinsley was rendered useless by injuries by the time of the ECF, and Ron was to busy refusing to get on team flights and being an idiot in general.

Edit - "right in line with his career playoff numbers"

Tinsley's playoff numbers are crap, he always hurts himself come playoff time. I can't remember a playoffs that he has eer been healthy for.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I dunno about as a Piston, but as a Pacer I don't think Rick has lost any series he was supposed to win. In fact, he's won one that he wasn't supposed to win (Boston last year).

If you want to subscribe to the opinion that the Pacers were supposed to be the "underdogs" against the Pistons in the 2004 playoffs, that's your opinion, but I don't see it that way. Rasheed Wallace or not, I know that I expected the Pacers to win: they had the playoff experience, they had the "star power," and Carlisle was supposed to have something to prove. They also had the higher seed and homecourt advantage. Unlike some people, I always expect the higher seed to win, unless it's a Nuggets/Clippers situation, where it's painfully obvious that the higher seed isn't *really* the better team; it was certainly not "obvious" to me that Rasheed Wallace made the Pistons the favorites in that series.

I didn't say that Tinsley's career playoff numbers were good, I said that his numbers in 2004 weren't any worse than his career numbers. You're free to try to make the case that if he were ever "healthy" that he'd have done much better, but in the two "injury-free" seasons that Tinsely has had, his playoff numbers look remarkably similar to the "injury-plagued" seasons, except for his rookie year, in which the numbers were appreciably worse.

EDIT - For example, Tinsley played 73 games in 2002-03, and all six of the Pacers' playoff games. Now, it would be more trouble than it's worth for me to find all of the box scores from the 2002-03 season and find out exactly which games he missed for the purpose of determining whether or not Tinsley was, in fact, healthy "come playoff time." But, since he played in 73 games, that means that he couldn't have possibly missed more than nine due to injury. And since he played every game of the playoffs, unless the nine games that he missed that year were the last nine of the season, it stands to reason that he was healthy "come playoff time."

And his playoff numbers that year look basically the same as his career numbers.

 

[SoupIsGood]

Pacers had playoff experience? Does getting whooped in the first round for years in a row count as experience?

OK maybe not whooped but they didn't get out of the first round.

Tinsley hasn't ever had a healthy playoffs. He started all the ECF games, but played 20 minutes or more in only three of them, playing 3 minutes in the final game.

How is not obvious that the Pistons were better once they traded for Sheed? That team went on a tear, and they were incredible defensively. In the one game the Pacers and Pistons played post-trade, they ate us alive.

 

[Bricklayer]

How is not obvious that the Pistons were better once they traded for Sheed? That team went on a tear, and they were incredible defensively. In the one game the Pacers and Pistons played post-trade, they ate us alive.

When you win 61 there shouldn't be ANYONE THAT much better than you. But it was clear post-Sheed trade that there were two great teams in the East, rather than just one. And in the playoffs, as was true during their entire run the Pistons were the healthier team (than any of the other top teams they faces -- Pacers, Lakers, Heat), and did not have to deal with the Artest distraction.


In any case, my anti-Heat stance has softened of late. Wade is one of those guys along with LeBron who is the future of the league, and I've long considered Riley to be maybe the greatest coach of all time (just because unlike PJ he won in multiple styles, and drove less talented teams toward the top). Nice to see the old legend dust off the cobwebs and step out of retirement to debunk the Flip/Pistons here. Also does not hurt that the Pistons are making themselves easy to dislike by acting like bickering children looking for scapegoats.

 

[SoupIsGood]

When you win 61 there shouldn't be ANYONE THAT much better than you. But it was clear post-Sheed trade that there were two great teams in the East, rather than just one. And in the playoffs, as was true during their entire run the Pistons were the healthier team (than any of the other top teams they faces -- Pacers, Lakers, Heat), and did not have to deal with the Artest distraction.


In any case, my anti-Heat stance has softened of late. Wade is one of those guys along with LeBron who is the future of the league, and I've long considered Riley to be maybe the greatest coach of all time (just because unlike PJ he won in multiple styles, and drove less talented teams toward the top). Nice to see the old legend dust off the cobwebs and step out of retirement to debunk the Flip/Pistons here. Also does not hurt that the Pistons are making themselves easy to dislike by acting like bickering children looking for scapegoats.

Well, they weren't THAT much better than us - they only beat us in 6. They were better though, and pretty clearly had the better starting five.



Side note - I somehow missed that discussion of Tinsley's 2002-03 season. He struggled with leg injuries during those playoffs too.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Pacers had playoff experience? Does getting whooped in the first round for years in a row count as experience?

Damn right. The core of the Pacers had, on average, three years of playoff experience going into that series (even if you *don't* count Miller) to the Pistons' core average of two years. If you *do* count Miller (and I do), then the experience advantage is *way* in favor of the Pacers.

More games doesn't *necessarily* mean more experience: if one guy gets to the playoffs each of his first four years in the league, but can't get out of the first round, and another guy doesn't make it *to* the playoffs until his fourth year, but gets to the Finals on his first try, he still doesn't have as much playoff experience as the first guy, even if they might have played close to the same number of games.

Tinsley hasn't ever had a healthy playoffs.

Tinsley averaged 31 minutes per game in the 2003 playoffs (the season I cited in my previous post). That statistic does not support the opinion that he has "never" had a healthy playoffs; unhealthy players don't typically play two-thirds of the game (Tinsley was third on the team in minutes for the playoffs that season, by the way: only O'Neal and Artest played more).

How is not obvious that the Pistons were better once they traded for Sheed?

It was "obvious" that the Pistons became a much better team after the trade; what was not so "obvious" was that they had become "much better" than the Pacers... Indiana was *still* a 61-win team that year. The Pacers went 22-6 after the All-Star break; the Pistons went 21-6, so it's not like the Pacers fell apart, or even back to the pack... Hell, as much as Detroit improved after acquiring Rasheed, it was all they could do just to keep up, so don't paint it like the Pistons became some kind of juggernaut while the Pacers became mere mortals.