DeMarcus Cousins: All NBA
- Thread starter Bricklayer
- Start date
According to Kingsgurl, who was at the game tonight, Cousins was named Player of the Game and interviewed on court. He was informed he had passed Vlade for career scoring. He said he was humbled just to be in the same sentence as someone like Vlade. He also apologized for not being more enthusiastic about achieving #8, but said he was very disappointed in himself because he had broken a promise he made to his teammates.
The NBA better rescind the stupid T. #rescindthet IS trending in Sacramento, BTW.
The NBA better rescind the stupid T. #rescindthet IS trending in Sacramento, BTW.
Bricklayer, I am in agreement with you but there are some points I think you are missing and some that you are presenting illogically. Take them or leave them but I state them just to get your thoughts...
1. If you are discussing his merits as an All-NBA player, his age means nothing (literally at least). Comparing him to other similarly aged years is also dirty bath water given how the game has changed recently (players leaving college earlier, etc).
2. I think the major sticking point that most people have with Cousins and his season is that great centers make great teams. You posted a bunch of centers with seasons similar to Cousins and I bet all those teams were good to great. Historically, if you have a "HOF" center, you are in the playoffs easily, and most likely talking championship. The fact that the Kings are so bad is what leads people to hesitant that Cousins is that good (or that he is doing something that prevents what matters... winning games).
1. If you are discussing his merits as an All-NBA player, his age means nothing (literally at least). Comparing him to other similarly aged years is also dirty bath water given how the game has changed recently (players leaving college earlier, etc).
2. I think the major sticking point that most people have with Cousins and his season is that great centers make great teams. You posted a bunch of centers with seasons similar to Cousins and I bet all those teams were good to great. Historically, if you have a "HOF" center, you are in the playoffs easily, and most likely talking championship. The fact that the Kings are so bad is what leads people to hesitant that Cousins is that good (or that he is doing something that prevents what matters... winning games).
A valid assertion. But if people are going to make that argument about Cuz then they have to make the same one about Anthony Davis, Dwight Howard, Kevin Love, Lamarcus Aldridge (overrated by my estimation but still highly regarded by pundits across the league), Pau Gasol, Zack Randolph, Chris Bosh, just about any big man in the league not named Tim Duncan, who had the luxury of landing on a team already starring one of the greatest big men to ever play the game.
What about the past, you say?
Hakeem Olajuwon entered the league in 1984 on a team that ultimately lost in the first round of the playoffs. One important note on that one: While he was awesome, the Dream was not the alpha dog (or even the best big man on his team that season) of the Rockets, that honor resting on the shoulders of one mister Ralph Sampson (22.1 ppg/10.4 rpg/2.7 apg/1 spg/2 bpg), who came into the league a monster before ultimately sucking as a Sacramento King years later. A year later, the Rockets reach the NBA finals but are bested by the Celtics, with Hakeem taking the reigns (23.5 ppg/11.5rpg/2 apg/2 spg/ 3.4 bpg) but Ralph Sampson (18.9 ppg/11.1 rpg/3.6 apg/1.3 spg/1.6 bpg) leading a balanced scoring attack behind him. (Coincidentally, they pummelled the Sacramento Kings in the first round, our only playoff appearance until 1996.) In other words, while the Rockets were obviously bad enough to be in a position to draft one of the best to ever play, they still boasted a bunch of pieces to make up a solid supporting cast AND a front office that wasn't actively trying to sell assets for a potential move to Anaheim/Virginia Beach/Anywhere but Sacramento.
Kevin Garnett came into the league as a 19 year old small forward (even then, Minnesota's front office wasn't sure what to do with its talents) and, while solid and displaying lots of raw potential, did not propel his team past a 29 win season. The next season, the Wolves managed to sneak into the playoffs behind the trio of Garnett (17 ppg/8 rpg/3.1 apg/1.4 spg/2.1 bpg), the Googs in his single all-star season (20.6 ppg/8.7 rpg/4.1 apg/1.6 spg/1.1 bpg), and rookie Starbury (15.8 ppg/2.7 rpg/7.8 apg/1 spg/.3 bpg). Alongside this "Big Three", the T-Wolves boasted a solid group of veteran role players like Sam Mitchell, Terry Porter, and even Dean Garrett. While that isn't exactly the greatest core in the world, it's still world's ahead of the Demarcus/Reke/twenty shooting guards group that Petrie put together for the first several seasons (aside from the one promising season Petrie traded Hawes for Dalembert). The next season, the Wolves also made the playoffs with the addition of Anthony Peeler, whom we all know would later go on to fight KG in the playoffs. One could argue that KG wasn't able to carry a team into the playoffs until the 1999 season, his fourth in the league during which the team made an ill-fated move for Joe Smith and lost the services of Starbury. Even then, KG was surrounded by complementary pieces and players that knew their roles (In other words, not Aaron Brooks).
Tim Duncan, while an absolute stud, wound up playing with one of the best teams in the league out of the gates thanks to a masterful tank job by the Spurs. I'd go into details but I'm pretty sure we all know them by now.
Moses Malone is a little harder to profile as he played a few years in the ABA before joining the Houston Rockets at the tender age of 22 and averaging 13.2 ppg, 13.1 rpg, 1.1 apg, .8 spg, 2.2 bpg. That team (the 76-77 Rockets) made it to the Eastern conference finals but were led by Rudy T and Calvin Murphy (coincidentally listed as the same size as IT) rather than Moses. Even that core could not repeat the campaign going into the next season, finishing a disappointing 28-54 (though a lot of that had to do with Rudy missing most of the season after one of the most infamous moments in sports history) with Moses putting up 19.4 ppg, 15 rpg, .5 apg, .8 spg, 1.3 bpg. The next season, Moses truly came alive and led the Rockets back tot he promised land of the playoffs where they lost to the Hawks in the first round. That season, at the ripe old age of 23, Moses averaged a cool 24.8 ppg, 17.6 rpg, 1.8 apg, 1 spg, 1.5 bpg in 41 minutes a game. Even then, Moses boasted a supporting cast featuring Rudy T, Rick Barry, and Calvin Murphy, one of those guys probably better than most of our roster put together. Featuring some variation of this supporting cast plus a big man who was second only to Lew at this point, the Rockets were able to make it all the way to the Finals in 1981 before Moses left and they engaged in a quick rebuilding effort in which they eventually would acquire Hakeem. Meanwhile, in his first season on the Sixers, Moses won the NBA finals on a team that featured some dude named Doctor J, Andrew Toney, and Mo Cheeks before he became a terrible basketball coach. In other words, his supporting cast was flippin' bad***.
I think you're starting to get the picture but since I don't want to actually get anything done at work today, I'll go on.
Shaq joined the Orlando Magic at the age of 20 and promptly led them to a 41-41 season with a staggering statline of 23.4 ppg, 13.9 rpg, 1.9 apg, .7 spg, 3.5 bpg. The Magic did not make the playoffs despite the monster season from Shaq, a 20 ppg season from Nick Anderson (also good at basketball before winding up a miserable waste of space on the Kings), and excellent role playerly seasons from Dennis Scott and Scott Skiles. The next season, the Magic got the number one pick (Chris Webber) and traded it for some dude named Penny Hardaway (the 3rd pick that year) while keeping literally everyone else and made the playoffs, where they ultimately lost in the first round. In other words, the Magic lucked their way into the usual dominant big man, dominant wing man, lots of role players model of contention without really trying. While the prospect of a Shaq, C-Webb frontcourt is just fun to think about in terms of sheer domination, they did the smart thing and acquired the Robin to their Batman or, perhaps more aptly, the Kryto the Superdog to their Superman.
Chris Webber made the playoffs in his first season but was on a Don Nelson team featuring Chris Mullins, Latrell Sprewell pre-choking incident, and Billy Owens. In other words, a HOFer, Latrell Sprewell when he was good, and another solid player. Plus it's a Don Nelson team so it's pretty damn hard to figure out what the hell was going on there. Then, after fighting with Don Nelson, Webber was dealt to the Washington Bullets a poorly constructed team that started the season with its three best players playing the same position (C-Webb, Juwan Howard), Calbert Cheney, and a post-Orlando Scott Skiles. Despite Webber almost averaging 20-10-5, the Wizards finished an astoundingly bad 21-61. The next season, the Wizards front office went insane and decided to pick Rasheed Wallace with their first round pick. (Sidebar, can you imagine how insane that locker room must have been with young C-Webb, Juwan Howard, and Sheed?) Thankfully, C-Webb missed most of the season and, the logjam being partly cleared up, the Bullets finished 39-43 behind, don't laugh, an All-Star season from Juwan Howard. The next season, the Wizards pulled their heads out of their butts and traded Sheed for Rod Strickland. Coincidentally, the Wizards made the playoffs behind the three-headed monster of a healthy Webber, Juwan, and Rod. The next season, the Wizards did not make the playoffs, the wheels fell off the C-Webb bus, and they traded him to us for old Mitch. I think we know what happened next.
I don't know if these are enough case studies for you but, to me, it is abundantly clear that, while the teams were obviously bad enough to acquire these big men, most of these all-stars and hall of famers came into the league on teams that decided to build around them first-and-foremost, and (b) on teams that weren't owned by the friggin' Maloofs. Looking at this collection of teams, there is not a roster that I would not take over the steaming pile of poo Petrie accumulated during the last half decade of his tenure. Even the waning Run CCL (Chris, Chris, Latrell) roster was better constructed than the Smartball teams featuring Reke at small forward and IT and MT at guard.
Overall, if we're going to be looking at trends here, it would seem that the elite big men really start to get going around the age of 23 or 24, something that we're seeing with Cuz over the past month or two. The key thing now is to surround him with talent and pieces that aren't diametrically opposed to his style of play and are able to space the floor for him and deflect some attention from him. That is, of course, why we are all so happy to have a talent like Rudy Gay who can theoretically serve as Demarcus's Krypto the Superdog.
What about the past, you say?
Hakeem Olajuwon entered the league in 1984 on a team that ultimately lost in the first round of the playoffs. One important note on that one: While he was awesome, the Dream was not the alpha dog (or even the best big man on his team that season) of the Rockets, that honor resting on the shoulders of one mister Ralph Sampson (22.1 ppg/10.4 rpg/2.7 apg/1 spg/2 bpg), who came into the league a monster before ultimately sucking as a Sacramento King years later. A year later, the Rockets reach the NBA finals but are bested by the Celtics, with Hakeem taking the reigns (23.5 ppg/11.5rpg/2 apg/2 spg/ 3.4 bpg) but Ralph Sampson (18.9 ppg/11.1 rpg/3.6 apg/1.3 spg/1.6 bpg) leading a balanced scoring attack behind him. (Coincidentally, they pummelled the Sacramento Kings in the first round, our only playoff appearance until 1996.) In other words, while the Rockets were obviously bad enough to be in a position to draft one of the best to ever play, they still boasted a bunch of pieces to make up a solid supporting cast AND a front office that wasn't actively trying to sell assets for a potential move to Anaheim/Virginia Beach/Anywhere but Sacramento.
Kevin Garnett came into the league as a 19 year old small forward (even then, Minnesota's front office wasn't sure what to do with its talents) and, while solid and displaying lots of raw potential, did not propel his team past a 29 win season. The next season, the Wolves managed to sneak into the playoffs behind the trio of Garnett (17 ppg/8 rpg/3.1 apg/1.4 spg/2.1 bpg), the Googs in his single all-star season (20.6 ppg/8.7 rpg/4.1 apg/1.6 spg/1.1 bpg), and rookie Starbury (15.8 ppg/2.7 rpg/7.8 apg/1 spg/.3 bpg). Alongside this "Big Three", the T-Wolves boasted a solid group of veteran role players like Sam Mitchell, Terry Porter, and even Dean Garrett. While that isn't exactly the greatest core in the world, it's still world's ahead of the Demarcus/Reke/twenty shooting guards group that Petrie put together for the first several seasons (aside from the one promising season Petrie traded Hawes for Dalembert). The next season, the Wolves also made the playoffs with the addition of Anthony Peeler, whom we all know would later go on to fight KG in the playoffs. One could argue that KG wasn't able to carry a team into the playoffs until the 1999 season, his fourth in the league during which the team made an ill-fated move for Joe Smith and lost the services of Starbury. Even then, KG was surrounded by complementary pieces and players that knew their roles (In other words, not Aaron Brooks).
Tim Duncan, while an absolute stud, wound up playing with one of the best teams in the league out of the gates thanks to a masterful tank job by the Spurs. I'd go into details but I'm pretty sure we all know them by now.
Moses Malone is a little harder to profile as he played a few years in the ABA before joining the Houston Rockets at the tender age of 22 and averaging 13.2 ppg, 13.1 rpg, 1.1 apg, .8 spg, 2.2 bpg. That team (the 76-77 Rockets) made it to the Eastern conference finals but were led by Rudy T and Calvin Murphy (coincidentally listed as the same size as IT) rather than Moses. Even that core could not repeat the campaign going into the next season, finishing a disappointing 28-54 (though a lot of that had to do with Rudy missing most of the season after one of the most infamous moments in sports history) with Moses putting up 19.4 ppg, 15 rpg, .5 apg, .8 spg, 1.3 bpg. The next season, Moses truly came alive and led the Rockets back tot he promised land of the playoffs where they lost to the Hawks in the first round. That season, at the ripe old age of 23, Moses averaged a cool 24.8 ppg, 17.6 rpg, 1.8 apg, 1 spg, 1.5 bpg in 41 minutes a game. Even then, Moses boasted a supporting cast featuring Rudy T, Rick Barry, and Calvin Murphy, one of those guys probably better than most of our roster put together. Featuring some variation of this supporting cast plus a big man who was second only to Lew at this point, the Rockets were able to make it all the way to the Finals in 1981 before Moses left and they engaged in a quick rebuilding effort in which they eventually would acquire Hakeem. Meanwhile, in his first season on the Sixers, Moses won the NBA finals on a team that featured some dude named Doctor J, Andrew Toney, and Mo Cheeks before he became a terrible basketball coach. In other words, his supporting cast was flippin' bad***.
I think you're starting to get the picture but since I don't want to actually get anything done at work today, I'll go on.
Shaq joined the Orlando Magic at the age of 20 and promptly led them to a 41-41 season with a staggering statline of 23.4 ppg, 13.9 rpg, 1.9 apg, .7 spg, 3.5 bpg. The Magic did not make the playoffs despite the monster season from Shaq, a 20 ppg season from Nick Anderson (also good at basketball before winding up a miserable waste of space on the Kings), and excellent role playerly seasons from Dennis Scott and Scott Skiles. The next season, the Magic got the number one pick (Chris Webber) and traded it for some dude named Penny Hardaway (the 3rd pick that year) while keeping literally everyone else and made the playoffs, where they ultimately lost in the first round. In other words, the Magic lucked their way into the usual dominant big man, dominant wing man, lots of role players model of contention without really trying. While the prospect of a Shaq, C-Webb frontcourt is just fun to think about in terms of sheer domination, they did the smart thing and acquired the Robin to their Batman or, perhaps more aptly, the Kryto the Superdog to their Superman.
Chris Webber made the playoffs in his first season but was on a Don Nelson team featuring Chris Mullins, Latrell Sprewell pre-choking incident, and Billy Owens. In other words, a HOFer, Latrell Sprewell when he was good, and another solid player. Plus it's a Don Nelson team so it's pretty damn hard to figure out what the hell was going on there. Then, after fighting with Don Nelson, Webber was dealt to the Washington Bullets a poorly constructed team that started the season with its three best players playing the same position (C-Webb, Juwan Howard), Calbert Cheney, and a post-Orlando Scott Skiles. Despite Webber almost averaging 20-10-5, the Wizards finished an astoundingly bad 21-61. The next season, the Wizards front office went insane and decided to pick Rasheed Wallace with their first round pick. (Sidebar, can you imagine how insane that locker room must have been with young C-Webb, Juwan Howard, and Sheed?) Thankfully, C-Webb missed most of the season and, the logjam being partly cleared up, the Bullets finished 39-43 behind, don't laugh, an All-Star season from Juwan Howard. The next season, the Wizards pulled their heads out of their butts and traded Sheed for Rod Strickland. Coincidentally, the Wizards made the playoffs behind the three-headed monster of a healthy Webber, Juwan, and Rod. The next season, the Wizards did not make the playoffs, the wheels fell off the C-Webb bus, and they traded him to us for old Mitch. I think we know what happened next.
I don't know if these are enough case studies for you but, to me, it is abundantly clear that, while the teams were obviously bad enough to acquire these big men, most of these all-stars and hall of famers came into the league on teams that decided to build around them first-and-foremost, and (b) on teams that weren't owned by the friggin' Maloofs. Looking at this collection of teams, there is not a roster that I would not take over the steaming pile of poo Petrie accumulated during the last half decade of his tenure. Even the waning Run CCL (Chris, Chris, Latrell) roster was better constructed than the Smartball teams featuring Reke at small forward and IT and MT at guard.
Overall, if we're going to be looking at trends here, it would seem that the elite big men really start to get going around the age of 23 or 24, something that we're seeing with Cuz over the past month or two. The key thing now is to surround him with talent and pieces that aren't diametrically opposed to his style of play and are able to space the floor for him and deflect some attention from him. That is, of course, why we are all so happy to have a talent like Rudy Gay who can theoretically serve as Demarcus's Krypto the Superdog.
People use ooh, he won! and boo he lost! as shorthands for what they don't know. Its like the world's biggest mushiest "advanced metric". "Well I don't have a ****ing clue about the player, but he lost, so he must suck, or at least I can safely say he did and not have to worry about being gainsaid."
Or alternately:
Tim Duncan at 23.
Wingman = David Robinson HOF
Coached by Gregg Popovich HOF
entire roster filed up with hyper experienced proven 30 something veterans. Mario Elie, Sean Elliot, Avery Johnson, Steve Kerr, Terry porter, Jerome Kersey etc. etc.
They win. Truly magic.
Shaquille O'Neal at 23
Wingman = Penny Hardaway (possibly on the way to the HOF before he blew out his knee)
other core players include Horace Grant, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott
They win. Again, its magic.
Hakeem Olajuwon at 23
Wingman = Ralph Sampson, pre-knees HOF
rest of roster includes Rodeny McCray, John Lucas and a bunch of mddling crap. Did not matter. They had the Twin Towers.
They win. Odd.
Moses Malone at 23
wingman is Calvin Natt HOF
other core players include Rick Barry HOF, and 2 future NBA Finals coaches in Rudy Tomjanovich and Mike Dunleavey
They win. More magic.
They we go to Patrick Ewing at 23
wingman is...Pat Cummings
also on that team are luminaries such as Gerald Wilkins, Rory Sparrow, Trent Tucker, and Louis Orr. Bill Cartwright was also on the roster, but only played in 2 games.
I know that team. I spent a lot of time trying to make them win in Strato-Matic basketball. As long as you cheated and played Cartwright and aimed for his foul I think on a 7, you might steal an occasional game. Otherwise you had no hope. Probably Ewing's fault.
DeMarcus Cousins at 23
wingman is...Isaiah Thomas? Rudy Gay maybe acquired mid season
other notable players include..hahahaha
And the end result is...shocking indeed.
Or alternately:
Tim Duncan at 23.
Wingman = David Robinson HOF
Coached by Gregg Popovich HOF
entire roster filed up with hyper experienced proven 30 something veterans. Mario Elie, Sean Elliot, Avery Johnson, Steve Kerr, Terry porter, Jerome Kersey etc. etc.
They win. Truly magic.
Shaquille O'Neal at 23
Wingman = Penny Hardaway (possibly on the way to the HOF before he blew out his knee)
other core players include Horace Grant, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott
They win. Again, its magic.
Hakeem Olajuwon at 23
Wingman = Ralph Sampson, pre-knees HOF
rest of roster includes Rodeny McCray, John Lucas and a bunch of mddling crap. Did not matter. They had the Twin Towers.
They win. Odd.
Moses Malone at 23
wingman is Calvin Natt HOF
other core players include Rick Barry HOF, and 2 future NBA Finals coaches in Rudy Tomjanovich and Mike Dunleavey
They win. More magic.
They we go to Patrick Ewing at 23
wingman is...Pat Cummings
also on that team are luminaries such as Gerald Wilkins, Rory Sparrow, Trent Tucker, and Louis Orr. Bill Cartwright was also on the roster, but only played in 2 games.
I know that team. I spent a lot of time trying to make them win in Strato-Matic basketball. As long as you cheated and played Cartwright and aimed for his foul I think on a 7, you might steal an occasional game. Otherwise you had no hope. Probably Ewing's fault.
DeMarcus Cousins at 23
wingman is...Isaiah Thomas? Rudy Gay maybe acquired mid season
other notable players include..hahahaha
And the end result is...shocking indeed.
As an aside looking at players at 23 is comparing apples to apples. I am trying to do a great many people a favor here and save them from saying any more stupid stuff about DeMarcus Cousins. Its the internet era now, whatever you say sticks to you for perpetuity. I could not save the blatant morons saying they would not trade Avery Bradley for DeMarcus Cousins last year. Couldn't do much for the Jonas Valnciunas > than DeMarcus Cousins people either, but I might be able to save the next generation before they too get stuck sticking their internet foots in their mouths running down a future HOFer, and having the record of it out there forever for all to see.
But the beauty of having a straight flush is that you don't have to hide from anything. Apples to apples is fair, but Cousins is so good he can take unfair and make people choke on it.
Right through the prime of their careers, giving them all the benefit of their best years, while eliminating their declining years that brought down career numbers, here are what the 90s mega centers did:
PatEwing (1986-98) 23.2pts 10.3reb 2.1ast 1.0stl 2.7blk PER: 22.0
Mourning (1993-2002) 20.8pts 10.1reb 1.5ast 0.6stl 3.1blk PER: 22.0
Daughrty (1987-1991) 18.3pts 9.1reb 3.7ast 0.7stl 0.6blk PER: 17.3
Shaquille (1993-2008) 25.1pts 11.4reb 2.7ast 0.6stl 2.4blk PER: 27.1
Olajuwon (1985-1998) 22.9pts 11.4reb 2.6ast 1.8stl 3.2blk PER: 24.2
Robinson (1990-2001) 22.8pts 11.1reb 2.7ast 1.5stl 3.2blk PER: 27.1
That's it. The very best years from the very best centers of the greatest generation of centers. And here today we already have this:
DCousins (2013-2014) 22.6pts 11.7reb 2.9ast 1.5stl 1.3blk PER: 26.0
At the ripe old age of 23. People spend their time trying to alternately mythologize the great centers of the past into impossible Wilt like paragons averaging 50pt 25reb 10blk a night, and then in the next breath trying to reinvent the sport and deny their dominance as they clutch their precious advanced metrics to their chest as their heroes chuck up another three. Neither works.
The great centers were great, they were dominant, they would dominate a team trying to play them small today. But they weren't gods. And their normal year in year out seasons looked an awful lot like the season we just saw our own great center put up. This is what it looks like. This is a dominant force in the league. If Cuz were a shotblocker too I wouldn't have titled my thread DeMarcus Cousins All NBA. I would have titled it DeMarcus Cousins, Chance for Top 10 All Time?
Here's more incense to burn for the Boogie Shrine
In a bit of a shocker, Zach Lowe puts Cousins second in his Most Improved Player rankings.
http://grantland.com/features/nba-awards-season/
I debated between putting this in the "Cousins Defense" thread but it seemed more fitting here. People are starting to notice Cousins' huge improvements on defense. Question is, just how good can he be on that end? All of the great centers always anchored elite defenses; in fact, they may have been more important to their team's defense than to their team's offense. I for one hope that Cousins can be considered elite one day. Its going to take a lot of effort and a lot of smarting up, but he's already smashed my expectations of him since he was drafted, so I'm not putting a ceiling on this guy.
In a bit of a shocker, Zach Lowe puts Cousins second in his Most Improved Player rankings.
http://grantland.com/features/nba-awards-season/
I debated between putting this in the "Cousins Defense" thread but it seemed more fitting here. People are starting to notice Cousins' huge improvements on defense. Question is, just how good can he be on that end? All of the great centers always anchored elite defenses; in fact, they may have been more important to their team's defense than to their team's offense. I for one hope that Cousins can be considered elite one day. Its going to take a lot of effort and a lot of smarting up, but he's already smashed my expectations of him since he was drafted, so I'm not putting a ceiling on this guy.
Here's more incense to burn for the Boogie Shrine
In a bit of a shocker, Zach Lowe puts Cousins second in his Most Improved Player rankings.
http://grantland.com/features/nba-awards-season/
I debated between putting this in the "Cousins Defense" thread but it seemed more fitting here. People are starting to notice Cousins' huge improvements on defense. Question is, just how good can he be on that end? All of the great centers always anchored elite defenses; in fact, they may have been more important to their team's defense than to their team's offense. I for one hope that Cousins can be considered elite one day. Its going to take a lot of effort and a lot of smarting up, but he's already smashed my expectations of him since he was drafted, so I'm not putting a ceiling on this guy.
In a bit of a shocker, Zach Lowe puts Cousins second in his Most Improved Player rankings.
http://grantland.com/features/nba-awards-season/
I debated between putting this in the "Cousins Defense" thread but it seemed more fitting here. People are starting to notice Cousins' huge improvements on defense. Question is, just how good can he be on that end? All of the great centers always anchored elite defenses; in fact, they may have been more important to their team's defense than to their team's offense. I for one hope that Cousins can be considered elite one day. Its going to take a lot of effort and a lot of smarting up, but he's already smashed my expectations of him since he was drafted, so I'm not putting a ceiling on this guy.
Still a very important conquest for Cuz. People note the things he says. I have been trying to get the attention of those guys, Lowe in particular, through various means for the last couple of months. Just got done sending a candygram to Aldridge too. He barely knows what he's talking about anymore and is so corporate I don't care what he thinks....except he's got the bully pulpit and just had the gall to say he still wasn't sure whether Boogie could one day be a franchise big man. Its an effort to keep my dripping disdain out of my messages to these people. Stats, notes, and get out before my commentary turns too acidic.
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I finally had time to read through this entire article by Lowe on his NBA award choices:
http://grantland.com/features/nba-awards-season/
Here's the amazing thing to show you how far Cousins is coming in rep.
-- He's not in Lowe's MVP Top 5...but he IS listed amongst the "apologies to" group of guys
-- He's not in Lowe's DPOY Top 3...but amazingly, Boogie is listed in the "apologies to" section here too. Remarkable.
-- He finishes #2 in Lowe's MIP Top 3, with the note about his vastly imp[roved defense etc. Unfortunately its based in part on Lowe's initial mistake, as he says he made his chocies based on "who saw that coming?". Well a lot of us did you...ahem...nice man who still has yet to submit his All NBA teams.
http://grantland.com/features/nba-awards-season/
Here's the amazing thing to show you how far Cousins is coming in rep.
-- He's not in Lowe's MVP Top 5...but he IS listed amongst the "apologies to" group of guys
-- He's not in Lowe's DPOY Top 3...but amazingly, Boogie is listed in the "apologies to" section here too. Remarkable.
-- He finishes #2 in Lowe's MIP Top 3, with the note about his vastly imp[roved defense etc. Unfortunately its based in part on Lowe's initial mistake, as he says he made his chocies based on "who saw that coming?". Well a lot of us did you...ahem...nice man who still has yet to submit his All NBA teams.
I finally had time to read through this entire article by Lowe on his NBA award choices:
http://grantland.com/features/nba-awards-season/
Here's the amazing thing to show you how far Cousins is coming in rep.
-- He's not in Lowe's MVP Top 5...but he IS listed amongst the "apologies to" group of guys
-- He's not in Lowe's DPOY Top 3...but amazingly, Boogie is listed in the "apologies to" section here too. Remarkable.
-- He finishes #2 in Lowe's MIP Top 3, with the note about his vastly imp[roved defense etc. Unfortunately its based in part on Lowe's initial mistake, as he says he made his chocies based on "who saw that coming?". Well a lot of us did you...ahem...nice man who still has yet to submit his All NBA teams.
http://grantland.com/features/nba-awards-season/
Here's the amazing thing to show you how far Cousins is coming in rep.
-- He's not in Lowe's MVP Top 5...but he IS listed amongst the "apologies to" group of guys
-- He's not in Lowe's DPOY Top 3...but amazingly, Boogie is listed in the "apologies to" section here too. Remarkable.
-- He finishes #2 in Lowe's MIP Top 3, with the note about his vastly imp[roved defense etc. Unfortunately its based in part on Lowe's initial mistake, as he says he made his chocies based on "who saw that coming?". Well a lot of us did you...ahem...nice man who still has yet to submit his All NBA teams.
I'd say that's extremely fair to Lowe. Cuz last season was still just talented tools with far too many stupid mistakes: dumb fouls/techs, horrid shot selection, no effort on D, etc. We still see some of that from time to time, but those aspects of his game have largely gone away. And thus the reason he's emerged as a top NBA big man. Brick is just frosty that Lowe pointed it out at the beginning of the year and now intends to rip him for it as much as humanely possible
I'd say that's extremely fair to Lowe. Cuz last season was still just talented tools with far too many stupid mistakes: dumb fouls/techs, horrid shot selection, no effort on D, etc. We still see some of that from time to time, but those aspects of his game have largely gone away. And thus the reason he's emerged as a top NBA big man. Brick is just frosty that Lowe pointed it out at the beginning of the year and now intends to rip him for it as much as humanely possible
Lowe couldn't see.
You know what the distinction between people who are good at what they do and those who are just solid fodder is? The fodder, even solid fodder, understand what IS. The good ones understand what WILL BE. In any field of endeavor, that's the key. From finance to sports to music to playing basketball analyst. Warren Buffet has that in his field. Boogie has it in his field. But Lowe could not see, and compounded that error by petulantly trying to rip Cousins down at every turn after his initial error. No comment about Cousins could he make without first prefacing it with "well, he's still a lazy bum but...".
Put another way, if Zach Lowe was your GM, we wouldn't have DeMarcus Cousins on this team. You want to defend that out of some sense of metric guy solidarity? Be my guest. I have no such disability. Zach Lowe couldn't see. Worse yet he put his ignorance on the topic on display for the entire world and a damaged our guy with it. In fact went so far as to urge PDA to go out searching for a trade to dump him. I will tar and feather him with that stupidity right up until the point he rescinds it in full.
You know what the distinction between people who are good at what they do and those who are just solid fodder is? The fodder, even solid fodder, understand what IS. The good ones understand what WILL BE. In any field of endeavor, that's the key. From finance to sports to music to playing basketball analyst. Warren Buffet has that in his field. Boogie has it in his field. But Lowe could not see, and compounded that error by petulantly trying to rip Cousins down at every turn after his initial error. No comment about Cousins could he make without first prefacing it with "well, he's still a lazy bum but...".
Put another way, if Zach Lowe was your GM, we wouldn't have DeMarcus Cousins on this team. You want to defend that out of some sense of metric guy solidarity? Be my guest. I have no such disability. Zach Lowe couldn't see. Worse yet he put his ignorance on the topic on display for the entire world and a damaged our guy with it. In fact went so far as to urge PDA to go out searching for a trade to dump him. I will tar and feather him with that stupidity right up until the point he rescinds it in full.
Metric guy solidarity? Thats a new one
In any case, Zach Lowe is a guy who covers the entire league. I don't know how many Kings games he has seen or how closely he follows the team. What I do know is that there is no chance he has watched every single possession of Boogie's career like I have, read practically every article about the team like I have, and knows the surrounding off-court chaos like I do. So when he watches the Kings and he sees a Boogie isolation at the top of the key following a James Johnson isolation on the left wing following a Thomas Robinson isolation on the right block, he thinks "Wow the Kings are a stupid team, everyone on the team including Cousins is a chucker". Whereas I on the other hand am thinking "Smart is such a dumb***. We ought to run some misdirection to get Boogie in the post on the left block". When Lowe sees Boogie pouting about a missed call, he thinks "Wow what a loose cannon"; when I see that I think "Why the hell is the coach not sticking up for his best player? Who's got Boogie's back"?
So when Lowe comes out and says "Boogie was terrible overall!", I have the gravitas to say "Well yes BUT his coach is the worst in history, his organization is going through the motions, and the owners are trying to relocate and have left the team as a dumpster fire". When Lowe comes out and says "Kings should dump Boogie!" I can come out confidently and say "Giving up on this kid's talent before giving him a chance in a legitimate NBA infrastructure would be stupid". I don't have to "tar and feather" Lowe for his own time limitations. I can understand that he doesn't have the full picture and if I was in his position I might just be saying the same thing.
I also don't understand the need to beat my own chest King Kong style for getting it right with Boogie when 95% of the NBA world had it so wrong. Honestly speaking, Cousins' golden boy status here at these forums is a bit refreshing considering all of the negativity attached to him when going elsewhere in the web. But its really amusing when we have to start discrediting good respectable journalists like Zach Lowe just for being wrong about Boogie. At the end of the day, what Lowe writes about Cousins has very little consequence in the grand scheme of things. He has one journalist vote out of hundreds for All-NBA/MVP/etc. He has his worshippers but the opinion of brainless parrots probably means even less. Lowe was *dead* wrong about Cousins and I knew it, you knew it, and PDA (who probably watched every Cousins possession as well) knew it too.
Ultimately the impetus to start a campaign against everything Zach Lowe comes only from his speaking ill of the golden boy. I don't have a personal taste for idolatry
. I can accept Lowe was way off on Cousins without being spurred to action about it.
The shift in attitude on this forum came as the season progressed. It is influenced by the FACT that the team cannot win without him on the court but it also has come about since the 2nd to last tech when his attitude shifted almost unbelievably. I honestly think we have seen the real Boogie recently and that having an axe hanging over his head (suspension) is NOT what changed him. HE changed him if that is proper English. I am very proud of Boogie and extremely happy he is a King. We are just fortunate that because of Boogie's position, he couldn't be screwed with and have his game changed. In fact what he faced with Malone as a coach is a guy who wanted more. Admit it, you all gasped when Malone said Boogie would be the defensive anchor. Hell, I suspect Boogie gasped. Yet he improved on defense. I never would have predicted that except that he is a tremendous athlete who may never have been asked to play defense.
Now he is our franchise player, our #1 option on offense, and our defensive anchor. The accolades may take awhile but he IS all of these already.
The rest of the NBA will catch up. Just as Boogie cannot be stopped 1v1, his excellence will soon become so obvious it cannot be ignored. If he keeps his present demeanor, his reputation will change rather abruptly.
Have people noticed that Boogie recently has not seemed to be controlling his anger by walking away or any other obvious demonstration that he is trying to hold him self together but that he doesn't seem was angry. He is using his energy to win.
I am very proud of Boogie and extremely happy he is a King. We are just fortunate that because of Boogie's position, he couldn't be screwed with and have his game changed. In fact what he faced with Malone as a coach is a guy who wanted more. Admit it, you all gasped when Malone said Boogie would be the defensive anchor. Hell, I suspect Boogie gasped. Yet he improved on defense. I never would have predicted that except that he is a tremendous athlete who may never have been asked to play defense.Now he is our franchise player, our #1 option on offense, and our defensive anchor. The accolades may take awhile but he IS all of these already.
The rest of the NBA will catch up. Just as Boogie cannot be stopped 1v1, his excellence will soon become so obvious it cannot be ignored. If he keeps his present demeanor, his reputation will change rather abruptly.
Have people noticed that Boogie recently has not seemed to be controlling his anger by walking away or any other obvious demonstration that he is trying to hold him self together but that he doesn't seem was angry. He is using his energy to win.
And so I popped him again.
Cousins is probably going to miss that All NBA slot this year, but this is an ongoing battle to set the stage for the media to magically reverse course next year. Establish firmly the idea that Cousins is Stephen Curry, the big unfairly snubbed star of the future. If he can't get the honors he deserve this year, then at least try to firmly establish him at the top of the all snubbed lsits.
Cousins is probably going to miss that All NBA slot this year, but this is an ongoing battle to set the stage for the media to magically reverse course next year. Establish firmly the idea that Cousins is Stephen Curry, the big unfairly snubbed star of the future. If he can't get the honors he deserve this year, then at least try to firmly establish him at the top of the all snubbed lsits.
Jefferson over Cousins is mind-boggling. At least with Noah, Howard, Hibbert, Davis, you can say, well Cousins blows them out of the water on the offensive end but they maybe (maybe) make it up on the defensive end. Not so with Jefferson. The only apparent logic is that the Bobcats are a better team, but they also had a much weaker schedule, and it's not clear that Jefferson "made his teammates better" given that Cousins +/- is superior, demonstrating he had a bigger impact on this Kings team than Jefferson did on the Bobcats. The only explanation is narrative--the Bobcats are a feel good story, and "finally are making a run in the east thanks to their off-season acquisition, Jefferson." I expect to see that from some of the old school hacks. The "analytic" types have no excuse.
Somebody just did me a favor and (very politely) challenged by response to that article, thus giving me the perfect excuse to hit the place with another big splash of stats/talking points.
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/rounding-out-the-nba-awards/
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/rounding-out-the-nba-awards/
Here's lowe's original article. Brick has it right. He couldn't see. Not at all.
He didn't just question Boogie's effort, he questioned his TALENT. Explicitly with this quote. "How talented, really, is DeMarcus Cousins? "
His TALENT has never been in doubt.
http://grantland.com/features/the-future-demarcus-boogie-cousins-nba-biggest-mystery/
He didn't just question Boogie's effort, he questioned his TALENT. Explicitly with this quote. "How talented, really, is DeMarcus Cousins? "
His TALENT has never been in doubt.
http://grantland.com/features/the-future-demarcus-boogie-cousins-nba-biggest-mystery/
That's one way to look at it I guess.
The other way is to admit that you can add up all the statistics in the world today and there is still something missing. That something is what separates dream teams on paper from lesser teams that just win. And we can't quantify it yet. So you can complain about people using that "excuse", but in basketball more than any other sport, one great player should equal wins (or has for nearly the entirety of the league). The idea that people can quantify that are wrong, but they are closer to being right than the people who think that statistics can tell us everything.
And lucky I went to read the comments of the Lowe article because someone less lazy did the research for me:
You can complain about mushy winning percentage factoring all you want, but that is pretty damning evidence.
The other way is to admit that you can add up all the statistics in the world today and there is still something missing. That something is what separates dream teams on paper from lesser teams that just win. And we can't quantify it yet. So you can complain about people using that "excuse", but in basketball more than any other sport, one great player should equal wins (or has for nearly the entirety of the league). The idea that people can quantify that are wrong, but they are closer to being right than the people who think that statistics can tell us everything.
And lucky I went to read the comments of the Lowe article because someone less lazy did the research for me:
You can complain about mushy winning percentage factoring all you want, but that is pretty damning evidence.
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Damning evidence toward what exactly? That the overall talent and skill level surrounding DeMarcus is worse than than all those other teams?
Of all those teams, how many had anywhere near the same roster turnover during the season?
I'll take a blind guess and state that this Kings team had more turnover than any of them. You should probably factor that in heavily with your damning evidence.
Of all those teams, how many had anywhere near the same roster turnover during the season?
I'll take a blind guess and state that this Kings team had more turnover than any of them. You should probably factor that in heavily with your damning evidence.
Damning evidence to the conventional wisdom of great player creating winning teams. You can try to explain why something happened, but the evidence is on the side of the haters if Cousins produced the 2 worst season of all time for a great player (26+ PER).
You can blind guess all you want, but that won't change people's mind. Hard facts will. Like Brick is doing...
You can blind guess all you want, but that won't change people's mind. Hard facts will. Like Brick is doing...
Not sure where else to put this so I'll post it here. Zach Lowe considered IT for All-NBA third team.
"Lowry has been a hair better as a two-way player than the other candidates for the final guard spot — John Wall, Damian Lillard, Kyrie Irving, Tony Parker, Conley, Isaiah Thomas, DeRozan, etc."
(from article Brick posted)
"Lowry has been a hair better as a two-way player than the other candidates for the final guard spot — John Wall, Damian Lillard, Kyrie Irving, Tony Parker, Conley, Isaiah Thomas, DeRozan, etc."
(from article Brick posted)