Defense still not addressed

[CaminoChaos]

I have a feeling that other than a few roster fillers this is all the player movement were going to see. So I doubt that defensive stopper is coming here.

As said before by Rick Adelman were not going to change into a defensive team by adding 1 or 2 players. So now it's up to Adelman make the current roster play some defense. Is it going to happen?

 

[VF21]

Adelman has made Kings teams play defense before. It's a cooperative effort. The players have to be willing to do it.

 

[SacTownKid]

I don't understand how two legs matters when they result in fewer rebounds. Webber rebounded better "on one leg" than Abdur-Rahim. Kenny Thomas also did better. What does two legs have to do with anything if they aren't being used to get rebounds?

That sounds like rationalization to me. There are plenty of good things about Shareef Abdur-Rahim, but extra rebounding does not seem to be one of them.

Numbers wise it may appear that Webber is a better rebounder, but in reality Reef, Kenny, and Skinner, can rebound out of their zone, and thats a HUGE plus. Webber's rebounds usually come from somewhere right around the basket. One significant difference I noticed after the trade is that our PF was able to run and grab a rebound that bounced off the rim at an angle. We now have "active" rebounders, that can board above the rim, and on the court. Defenite plus for us.

 

[SacTownKid]

Adelman has made Kings teams play defense before. It's a cooperative effort. The players have to be willing to do it.

And a lot of it has to do with preperation, and knowing your teamates. They couldn't even rotate properly after the deals. There isn't a team in the league, including the Spurs and Detroit, that can stop another team while playing only man to man D. Thats pretty much what the Kings were doing last season. With a training camp and some designated roles the D should (hopefully!) improve.

 

[uolj]

Numbers wise it may appear that Webber is a better rebounder, but in reality Reef, Kenny, and Skinner, can rebound out of their zone, and thats a HUGE plus. Webber's rebounds usually come from somewhere right around the basket. One significant difference I noticed after the trade is that our PF was able to run and grab a rebound that bounced off the rim at an angle. We now have "active" rebounders, that can board above the rim, and on the court. Defenite plus for us.

I trust the stats a lot more than feelings like the ones you are talking about. You could say that Webber got a lot more rebounds by being taller and having better hands. I don't see how one type of rebound is better than another, and I don't understand how fewer rebounds are a plus just because they are more "active".

 

[Bricklayer]

And a lot of it has to do with preperation, and knowing your teamates. They couldn't even rotate properly after the deals. There isn't a team in the league, including the Spurs and Detroit, that can stop another team while playing only man to man D. Thats pretty much what the Kings were doing last season. With a training camp and some designated roles the D should (hopefully!) improve.

Well let's see, if Player A is getting rebounds out of his area, and yet still somehow manages to get outrebounded by Player B who can't get rebounds out of his area, that tells me that Player B is grabbing a lot more rebounds IN his area. A rebound is a rebound.

 

[LPKingsFan]

I think the team some of us have been kicking around in the trade thread:
Miller/SAR/Peja/Bonzi/Bibby/Harpring/Nesterovic/Hart is actually a decent enough defensive team. But we'll see if Petrie can do the requisite dealing first.

 

[SacTownKid]

I trust the stats a lot more than feelings like the ones you are talking about. You could say that Webber got a lot more rebounds by being taller and having better hands. I don't see how one type of rebound is better than another, and I don't understand how fewer rebounds are a plus just because they are more "active".

The team, as a whole, is more competetive on the boards and that is never a bad thing. I am not saying that Webber isn't a good rebounder in his own way, but any player can basically stand under the basket and grab down missed shots. We had 2 of those types of players in Miller and Webber, you don't want 2 of those kinds of players when your PG, SF, and SG can't make up the difference. BTW, look at the stats, Webber didn't get "a lot" more rebounds.

 

[SacTownKid]

Well let's see, if Player A is getting rebounds out of his area, and yet still somehow manages to get outrebounded by Player B who can't get rebounds out of his area, that tells me that Player B is grabbing a lot more rebounds IN his area. A rebound is a rebound.

Yes, but in this instance Team Z is a better rebounding team. Notice how we weren't getting killed as bad on the boards as before the trade. We were losing that battle of the boards on those balls that Webber and Miller couldn't get too. Webber may have had respectable numbers but we were getting crushed on the boards nearly every game with Miller and Webber in the lineup.

 

[uolj]

The team, as a whole, is more competetive on the boards and that is never a bad thing. I am not saying that Webber isn't a good rebounder in his own way, but any player can basically stand under the basket and grab down missed shots. We had 2 of those types of players in Miller and Webber, you don't want 2 of those kinds of players when your PG, SF, and SG can't make up the difference. BTW, look at the stats, Webber didn't get "a lot" more rebounds.

You say the team is more competitive on the boards. I say that doesn't make sense, Abdur-Rahim is a worse rebounder than Webber or Thomas. Sure it wouldn't be a bad thing if it were true.

And when I said Webber grabs a lot more rebounds, I was referring to him grabbing a lot more rebounds due to height and hands. But I checked the stats anyway. And Webber did grab a lot more rebounds last year:
Total rebounds: 612 vs 392
Rebounds per game: 9.1 vs 7.3
Rebounds per 48 min: 12.4 vs 10.1
Rebound Rate (BasketballReference.com): 15.0 (in Sac) vs 12.2.

Kenny Thomas' rebounding numbers were also better than Abdur-Rahim's, although not by as much as Webber's.

There are plenty of things to be excited about for this team, I don't understand why people want to fixate on something that is just not true. If you want to be excited that the rebounds will look prettier this year, that's fine, but you can't go so far as to say that there will be more of them without it being just a guess that goes against historical facts.

 

[KP]

Notice how we weren't getting killed as bad on the boards as before the trade.

STK did you watch the Seattle series? It's a rhetorical question of course I know you did, but you seem unable to accept the fact of what happened last year after the Webber trade. We didn't get any better in the rebounding dept. At all. Not one bit. The numbers didn't bear it out in the reg season, and the gut check playoffs when we really needed it was even worse. We were totally outmuscled and destroyed in that series by the Sonics and Webber wasn't playing for us. You could say the single greatest reason we lost that series was our inability to even grab a defensive rebound at all! Those guys that you mentioned were all playing and they got humiliated, not just on the court but in the press too, Seattle talked trash the whole way. You can't just say something is someway because thats what you think... back it up with real numbers, or drop it. All that being said I think you're right about one thing... If KT can come off the bench and still be highly productive(he doesn't have to be happy), then the Webber trade is much less important than it would have been if we hadn't gotten Reef. KT isn't a great starter but he's a hell of a backup 4, and I suspct he may even play some 3 too. We now have a very good starting 5 and decent depth behind them too, but if this lineup stays the same will the Kings even be in the top 20 teams in reb diff next year? No.

 

[SacTownKid]

STK did you watch the Seattle series? It's a rhetorical question of course I know you did, but you seem unable to accept the fact of what happened last year after the Webber trade. We didn't get any better in the rebounding dept. At all. Not one bit. The numbers didn't bear it out in the reg season, and the gut check playoffs when we really needed it was even worse. We were totally outmuscled and destroyed in that series by the Sonics and Webber wasn't playing for us. You could say the single greatest reason we lost that series was our inability to even grab a defensive rebound at all! Those guys that you mentioned were all playing and they got humiliated, not just on the court but in the press too, Seattle talked trash the whole way. You can't just say something is someway because thats what you think... back it up with real numbers, or drop it. All that being said I think you're right about one thing... If KT can come off the bench and still be highly productive(he doesn't have to be happy), then the Webber trade is much less important than it would have been if we hadn't gotten Reef. KT isn't a great starter but he's a hell of a backup 4, and I suspct he may even play some 3 too. We now have a very good starting 5 and decent depth behind them too, but if this lineup stays the same will the Kings even be in the top 20 teams in reb diff next year? No.

So, you want your numbers. I HATE using statistical data because there are too many variables not considered but here you go.

Yes, I did watch the Seattle series and it wasn't just on the boards we got killed. And with the exception of the last game, we weren't all that trashed on the boards.

BUT...look at the regular season games that we played against Seattle with Webber. Then look at the ones we didn't.

w/Webber: Sonics-54 rbs Kings-39 rbs

w/o Webber: Sonics-43 rbs Kings-42 rbs (Webber sat out this game)

w/Webber: Sonics-46 rbs Kings-33 rbs

post Webber trade: Sonics-37 rbs Kings-35 rbs

Playoff series:

Sonics-51 rbs Kings-44 rbs

Sonics-45 rbs Kings-42 rbs

Sonics-38 rbs Kings-30 rbs

Sonics-37 rbs Kings-39 rbs

Sonics-43 rbs Kings-25 rbs


I would say, just in using Seattle as an example, we were much more competetive on the boards after the trade.

 

[SacTownKid]

So, you want your numbers. I HATE using statistical data because there are too many variables not considered but here you go.

Yes, I did watch the Seattle series and it wasn't just on the boards we got killed. And with the exception of the last game, we weren't all that trashed on the boards.

BUT...look at the regular season games that we played against Seattle with Webber. Then look at the ones we didn't.

w/Webber: Sonics-54 rbs Kings-39 rbs

w/o Webber: Sonics-43 rbs Kings-42 rbs (Webber sat out this game)

w/Webber: Sonics-46 rbs Kings-33 rbs

post Webber trade: Sonics-37 rbs Kings-35 rbs

Playoff series:

Sonics-51 rbs Kings-44 rbs

Sonics-45 rbs Kings-42 rbs

Sonics-38 rbs Kings-30 rbs

Sonics-37 rbs Kings-39 rbs

Sonics-43 rbs Kings-25 rbs


I would say, just in using Seattle as an example, we were much more competetive on the boards after the trade.

BTW, thats an average of being outrebounded with Webber by 14 boards a game ,and without Webber by 5.2 boards a game. Thats a BIG difference.

 

[KP]

lol I give up. So your basing your point on 2 games C-webb played in? He avg 8 rebs against them in those two games(9 & 7), not the reason we got outrebounded so bad. Your stretching even more now. If you can't see how bad we got beat up(pre-trade and post trade) then lets just agree to disagree.

 

[uolj]

Yep, those two games worth of statistics are much more reliable than the full season's worth that I looked up.

Why is this about Webber only anyway, I thought the point was that Abdur-Rahim will lead to improved rebounding over last year, and last year was half Webber half Thomas.

 

[SacTownKid]

lol I give up. So your basing your point on 2 games C-webb played in? He avg 8 rebs against them in those two games(9 & 7), not the reason we got outrebounded so bad. Your stretching even more now. If you can't see how bad we got beat up(pre-trade and post trade) then lets just agree to disagree.

Like I said I hate statistical data b/c there are always arguements to rebut its point, but you said to show you the numbers and I did. You used Seattle as an example and so did I.

I agree however that we got beat up in that series. It better not happen again!

 

[SacTownKid]

Yep, those two games worth of statistics are much more reliable than the full season's worth that I looked up.

Why is this about Webber only anyway, I thought the point was that Abdur-Rahim will lead to improved rebounding over last year, and last year was half Webber half Thomas.

I wasn't saying that Kenny Thomas is a better rebounder than Webb statistically, rather that we were more active in going for rebounds.

 

[Padrino]

the whole situation sucks. i dont care about webb vs abdur rahim vs thomas. that doesnt matter, because none of them, including post-injury/post-surgery webber, were great rebounders, though webber was pulling down more boards on one leg than either in a season's statistical average. the fact of the matter is that we have not yet acquired a good "rebounder" in the simplest definition of the term. we dont have a single big man on the roster that can be called a solid, consistent rebounder. part of the problem is none of them are tall enough or strong enough to qualify. reggie evans aint real tall, but he's a muscular banger who is willing to throw his body (and other player's bodies) around in order to gain position for a rebound. if SAR or thomas did this, than it wouldnt be so much of a problem. but, the players in question are soft....as in, unwilling to sacrifice life and limb to crash the boards. we need a guy like reggie evans (off the bench or otherwise) who's gonna be a true force in the paint (defensively) and on the boards. this isnt a matter of one guys stats vs another's, cuz thats splitting hairs...we're talking about 1 or 2 rebounds a game AT MOST.

we need an impact rebounder, simple as that.

 

[KP]

Agreed we sucked before the trade and after. I just think it has less to do with the PF position than some. I said before during and after the trade that it wouldn't help and the numbers proved that assumption right. Brick posted Stats over and over to show who was a good rebounder as compared to the rest of the league at their positions. Our prob with reb had nothing to do with Webb. Before he left Sac he was top 10 in rebs per 48 min and even after he struggled in Phili he ended up near it. He's not a great reb but you have to at least concede he's good. At the very least he was the best reb to play for the Kings last year, even though thats not saying much which I guess is the whole point!

 

[Venom]

Hmmm. . .a one-legged man with the heart of a lion outrebounds an allegedly healthy softie? Weird. Who would have thought sheer desire and competitiveness could make such a difference in such a critical facet of the game?

 

[jay dubb]

Im sick of all this talk about the Kings lack of DEFENSE!! Not one person knows how good or bad the Kings defense will look until Nov. 2 when we play Houston so lets just forget about the past and look to the future. This is a new team and people are already talking about how bad they will be on D and they havent even seen these guys play one game together yet.

 

[SacTownKid]

Im sick of all this talk about the Kings lack of DEFENSE!! Not one person knows how good or bad the Kings defense will look until Nov. 2 when we play Houston so lets just forget about the past and look to the future. This is a new team and people are already talking about how bad they will be on D and they havent even seen these guys play one game together yet.

AMEN TO THAT!!!!

And if we get torched like we did last season? Let the bashing begin!!!

 

[piksi]

Im sick of all this talk about the Kings lack of DEFENSE!! Not one person knows how good or bad the Kings defense will look until Nov. 2 when we play Houston so lets just forget about the past and look to the future. This is a new team and people are already talking about how bad they will be on D and they havent even seen these guys play one game together yet.

Only person who does not know is You. The rest of us just tries not to think about it too much

 

[SacTownKid]

Only person who does not know is You. The rest of us just tries not to think about it too much

OK. You've sold me on it. I just gave away my season tix for a TV dinner. I mean whats the point anyway, right?

 

[jay dubb]

Only person who does not know is You. The rest of us just tries not to think about it too much

I dont talk about the Kings defense Mr. Bibby Hater.

 

[jay dubb]

Im sick of all this talk about the Kings lack of DEFENSE!! Not one person knows how good or bad the Kings defense will look until Nov. 2 when we play Houston so lets just forget about the past and look to the future. This is a new team and people are already talking about how bad they will be on D and they havent even seen these guys play one game together yet.

Oh yeah Piksi, by the way this ^ goes out to you.

 

[Venom]

I'm always baffled by the people who loudly proclaim that there should be no dispute or contrarian talk on a discussion board. Just. . .bizarre.

 

[D-Mass]

Im sick of all this talk about the Kings lack of DEFENSE!! Not one person knows how good or bad the Kings defense will look until Nov. 2 when we play Houston so lets just forget about the past and look to the future. This is a new team and people are already talking about how bad they will be on D and they havent even seen these guys play one game together yet.

Maybe we shouldn't have this forum then. Or maybe we should all just talk about how much we love the team no matter what. But, see, that would be BORING...no one would bother to visit this site anymore. The truth is, no one knows what this team will look like on either end of the floor, but that's why this forum is here. Some people think we'll be fine defensively and some people think we'll be pathetic...and that's GREAT. It gives us something to talk about.

 

[piksi]

I dont talk about the Kings defense Mr. Bibby Hater.

I guess - you told me

 

[VF21]

I dont talk about the Kings defense Mr. Bibby Hater.

The name calling stops...now.