[CLE/ORL] - Eastern Conference finals

[Bricklayer]

Tonight was the first time since the miracle shot that Lebron has played like he's wanted it more than the Magic.

You do realize you are watching one of the finest playoff series ever delivered by a player, right?

 

[kingsnation]

You do realize you are watching one of the finest playoff series ever delivered by a player, right?

Yes. And he has been absolutely amazing.

However, I just haven't seen the fire he had tonight in any of the other games besides Game 2. I think once they went down 3-1 and tonight almost were eliminated - it finally made him elevate his game to the next level. The level of "I don't care what they throw at us, MY team is NOT losing."

 

[sloter]

am I the only one seeing Lebron travel on like 3/4 of the plays?

No, you're not. I'm a huge fan of LeBron, but so many calls or non-calls going his way absolutely disgusts me and in a way takes away from all the great things he's done.

 

[LPKingsFan]

am I the only one seeing Lebron travel on like 3/4 of the plays?

There's a traveling rule in the NBA?

 

[kennadog]

There's a traveling rule in the NBA?

Nobody's told Kobe, either.

 

[tyrant]

this is why i like the NFL more than the NBA. the officiating last night was inexcusable. horrible calls in the middle and end of the game. lebron to the freethrow line every single time. they want to see lakers/cleveland so bad. orlando shouldve won in 5. this is too out of control. stern please dissapear

 

[Bricklayer]

this is why i like the NFL more than the NBA. the officiating last night was inexcusable. horrible calls in the middle and end of the game. lebron to the freethrow line every single time. they want to see lakers/cleveland so bad. orlando shouldve won in 5. this is too out of control. stern please dissapear

Stern should perhaps have told the refs about the conspiracy before they sent the Magic to the line 10 more times than the Cavs.

As usual, unhappy with the result = must be a conspiracy. Weaksauce.

 

[Rookie]

Stern should perhaps have told the refs about the conspiracy before they sent the Magic to the line 10 more times than the Cavs.

As usual, unhappy with the result = must be a conspiracy. Weaksauce.

Agreed. It does get old and sometime annoying.

 

[kupman]

Conspiracy or not, the officiating in the NBA is really poor and it has been for years and years. It really takes away from the enjoyment of watching the game.

I wish something could be done about it, but maybe it is just too hard of a game to officiate well.

 

[tyrant]

however many times orlando got to the line had nothing to do with it. bad calls are bad calls. you can shoot more freethrows and still get cheated out of a game fyi. ive seen plenty of phantom calls during this series. one play in particular when lebron when to the bucket and howard stood there with his arms up. it was his 6th foul and another and 1 for lebron. but the fact that howard didnt fall flat on his back was probably the reason they didnt call the offensive foul. howard was outside the restricted area standing completely still.

 

[Bricklayer]

however many times orlando got to the line had nothing to do with it. bad calls are bad calls. you can shoot more freethrows and still get cheated out of a game fyi. ive seen plenty of phantom calls during this series. one play in particular when lebron when to the bucket and howard stood there with his arms up. it was his 6th foul and another and 1 for lebron. but the fact that howard didnt fall flat on his back was probably the reason they didnt call the offensive foul. howard was outside the restricted area standing completely still.

Uh, I was prepared for an obscure call. But you chose an obvious one, and Dwight was hardly standing still on that one. He was rotating over. 39 seconds into this video: http://www.nba.com/video/channels/playoffs/2009/05/29/nba_20090528_james_gm5.nba/

 

[kupman]

Brick,

Are you going to try and make an argument that the playoff officiating is satisfactory or would you agree that it stinks.

note: I am not talking about this series specifically. The officiating in this series does not stink any more than it stinks in the playoffs in general IMHO.

 

[Bricklayer]

Brick,

Are you going to try and make an argument that the playoff officiating is satisfactory or would you agree that it stinks.

note: I am not talking about this series specifically. The officiating in this series does not stink any more than it stinks in the playoffs in general IMHO.

I would answer that:

1) it matters more, so people notice more. Not sure how much worse it is than normal though.

2) while acknowledging specific problems, I think even under ideal circumstances NBA refereeing is ALWAYS going to draw more attention than that in any other sport, simply because there are so many more calls, and judgment calls at that, than in any other sport. Its the judment calls that always cause the controversy in whatever sport -- balls and strikes in baseball, pass interference and holding calls in football, etc. And the NBA has its refs making judgment type calls literally dozens of times a game. Short of just turning it into a free for all (and sending Kevin running out looking for a new job) there will always be complaints, and because of the high visibility of the refs in each game, always be conspiracy type claims made whenever one is unhappy.

 

[tyrant]

I would answer that:

1) it matters more, so people notice more. Not sure how much worse it is than normal though.

2) while acknowledging specific problems, I think even under ideal circumstances NBA refereeing is ALWAYS going to draw more attention than that in any other sport, simply because there are so many more calls, and judgment calls at that, than in any other sport. Its the judment calls that always cause the controversy in whatever sport -- balls and strikes in baseball, pass interference and holding calls in football, etc. And the NBA has its refs making judgment type calls literally dozens of times a game. Short of just turning it into a free for all (and sending Kevin running out looking for a new job) there will always be complaints, and because of the high visibility of the refs in each game, always be conspiracy type claims made whenever one is unhappy.

question, we have replay for shots at the buzzer. why cant we use replay on a foul?

 

[bozzwell]

I would answer that:

1) it matters more, so people notice more. Not sure how much worse it is than normal though.

2) while acknowledging specific problems, I think even under ideal circumstances NBA refereeing is ALWAYS going to draw more attention than that in any other sport, simply because there are so many more calls, and judgment calls at that, than in any other sport. Its the judment calls that always cause the controversy in whatever sport -- balls and strikes in baseball, pass interference and holding calls in football, etc. And the NBA has its refs making judgment type calls literally dozens of times a game. Short of just turning it into a free for all (and sending Kevin running out looking for a new job) there will always be complaints, and because of the high visibility of the refs in each game, always be conspiracy type claims made whenever one is unhappy.

3) As they say... Never attribute to malice (or in this case to conspiracy) what can adequately be explained by human incompetence.

Of course, basketball is unique that pretty much all of the calls are either judgement calls or can become judgement calls in a specific situation (example: cut and dry "out of bounds" call, becomes a judgement call when the ref does not have a clean look at the play). Bill Simmons has a good article on ESPN railing about this and other refereing issues in the NBA, one of his main points is that some of the best, the quickest and most agile athletes in the World are supervised/refereed by 60, 70+ year old dudes.

My main issue with NBA refs is that they suck all the time, but at least they provide level playing field by their consistent sucktitude.

 

[Bricklayer]

question, we have replay for shots at the buzzer. why cant we use replay on a foul?

So that we can have 30 delays per game trying to figure out judgment calls? At best replay is a tool for the black and white, not the grey. Toe on the line, shotclock violation, that kind of thing.

 

[Rookie]

I wonder the same thing but lets not turn this into a replay discussion. Bad call happens.

Cavs going to win next game...who's with me.

 

[bozzwell]

question, we have replay for shots at the buzzer. why cant we use replay on a foul?

Probably because the game is too choppy as it is? It does seem like only a 4th ref (video booth) can fix the refereeing as it is done now, but that'll never work for NBA. People are already tuning out NBA in droves, so last thing the league needs is more time outs and close ups of Salvatore or Crawford with the headset.

 

[tyrant]

So that we can have 30 delays per game trying to figure out judgment calls? At best replay is a tool for the black and white, not the grey. Toe on the line, shotclock violation, that kind of thing.

if a player takes a 3 pointer and he's a centimeter out of bounds he DESERVES to get credit for that shot. but these fouls are whats determining the winners and losers down the stretch of critical games. as for that howard foul, he might of been rotating over but its the point of contact that should matter. you can fly across the court but if youre at a stand still before a collision then that should be an offensive foul. he's like shaq, very hard to judge fouls. he just puts his head down and runs through you like a full back. and 90% of the time the call will go his way. its crap!!

 

[tyrant]

So that we can have 30 delays per game trying to figure out judgment calls? At best replay is a tool for the black and white, not the grey. Toe on the line, shotclock violation, that kind of thing.

what about challenges like in football. coaches are given 2, maybe 3 a game. for critical times like last night.

 

[Jerryaki]

the articles and stories keep harping on how LBJ had a hand in most of the cav's 4th quarter points, whether scoring or assists; they spin it around how awesome lebron is. is anyone else disturbed by that? i know that he's the best player in the game right now, but it seems kind of a faulty foundation for a team to be so centered around one player, no? especially a player also must touch the ball on every possession.

give me the 2003 kings or the 2004 pistons over lebron any day.

 

[tyrant]

the articles and stories keep harping on how LBJ had a hand in most of the cav's 4th quarter points, whether scoring or assists; they spin it around how awesome lebron is. is anyone else disturbed by that? i know that he's the best player in the game right now, but it seems kind of a faulty foundation for a team to be so centered around one player, no? especially a player also must touch the ball on every possession.

give me the 2003 kings or the 2004 pistons over lebron any day.

give me the '08 celtics and they would already be waiting for the lakers/denver. it doesnt really bother me that everyone thinks so highly of lebron. i actually like him, however i dont like how officials make calls for him. and i dont think he's the best in the league. i still think kobe is better. he can score in more ways than a few. he could easily score 40 a game but he has talent around him.

 

[kupman]

the articles and stories keep harping on how LBJ had a hand in most of the cav's 4th quarter points, whether scoring or assists; they spin it around how awesome lebron is. is anyone else disturbed by that? i know that he's the best player in the game right now, but it seems kind of a faulty foundation for a team to be so centered around one player, no? especially a player also must touch the ball on every possession.

give me the 2003 kings or the 2004 pistons over lebron any day.

Preach it brother!

I love team basketball. It seems this league pushes for star driven teams when what I love is 5 players that play really well together. Both the Nuggets and Orlando play really good team b-ball.

 

[Bricklayer]

the articles and stories keep harping on how LBJ had a hand in most of the cav's 4th quarter points, whether scoring or assists; they spin it around how awesome lebron is. is anyone else disturbed by that? i know that he's the best player in the game right now, but it seems kind of a faulty foundation for a team to be so centered around one player, no? especially a player also must touch the ball on every possession.

give me the 2003 kings or the 2004 pistons over lebron any day.

Give me the team that wins every day, however they get it done.

That was ugly bball BTW -- a 1-2-2 right through the 4th quarter. That was like coaching at the Y. But when the 1 happens to be LeBron, it was also brilliant basketball. Whatever it takes to win. Whatever it takes. And in Cleveland, on the brink of elimination, and with shaky not-stars all over the roster, they decided to give it to their HOFer and live or die with the best they had. Good for them. And good for LeBron -- it was a monumental performance.

 

[Jerryaki]

That was ugly bball BTW -- a 1-2-2 right through the 4th quarter. That was like coaching at the Y. But when the 1 happens to be LeBron, it was also brilliant basketball. Whatever it takes to win. Whatever it takes. And in Cleveland, on the brink of elimination, and with shaky not-stars all over the roster, they decided to give it to their HOFer and live or die with the best they had. Good for them. And good for LeBron -- it was a monumental performance.

yep, i can't fault them for it really because it was do or die for them. it just irks me that the media is somehow holding this as the pinnacle of what basketball should be. like you said, it was ugly, and to me, no better than the damn kobe-centric lakers of the past few years. i guess what i'm trying to say is that i hate that the story is "lebron is so awesome!" and not "wow, the rest of the cavaliers really suck." we already know LBJ is awesome!

Give me the team that wins every day, however they get it done.

i can understand that, but disagree. i started on the kings during the golden era; they didn't win it all, but that team play is still better than anything else i've ever seen. to borrow a larry brownism, they played the right way, and if they give me that, then that's all i can ask for.

 

[kingsnation]

I would answer that:

1) it matters more, so people notice more. Not sure how much worse it is than normal though.

2) while acknowledging specific problems, I think even under ideal circumstances NBA refereeing is ALWAYS going to draw more attention than that in any other sport, simply because there are so many more calls, and judgment calls at that, than in any other sport. Its the judment calls that always cause the controversy in whatever sport -- balls and strikes in baseball, pass interference and holding calls in football, etc. And the NBA has its refs making judgment type calls literally dozens of times a game. Short of just turning it into a free for all (and sending Kevin running out looking for a new job) there will always be complaints, and because of the high visibility of the refs in each game, always be conspiracy type claims made whenever one is unhappy.

On top of that, the NBA is notorious for things like "superstar calls," and "rookie non-calls." Those 2 things alone cause people to actively search for bad calls.

Also, another reason the NBA officiating is always under the microspope is because their referees have been investigated for cheating/gambling in the past.

 

[bigbadred00]

give me the '08 celtics and they would already be waiting for the lakers/denver. it doesnt really bother me that everyone thinks so highly of lebron. i actually like him, however i dont like how officials make calls for him. and i dont think he's the best in the league. i still think kobe is better. he can score in more ways than a few. he could easily score 40 a game but he has talent around him.

How many ways are there to score?

Lebron can hit jumpers. He can hit 3 pointers. He can goto the line and hit 80% from there. He can dunk, he can layup, he can play in the paint. About the only thing he doesn't regularly do is do a fadeaway jumper and a hook. Kobe doesn't do a hook either though.

Lebron scores more efficiently and does just about everything else better than Kobe does it. He's bigger, stronger, a better leader, passes better, defends on average better (I know Kobe can play D, he just doesn't do much of it due to his offensive requirements).

Lebron can do just about anything. And the other thing that is LOL hilarious is Kobe's clutch thing that everyone thinks he does so well. Both Kobe and Lebron aren't that great with respect to last second shots, Kobe is in fact pretty awful at it though. Kobe does step up in the 4th though when thing are close, I'll give him that.

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

Kobe is now 14-56 the last couple of seasons including playoffs in last second shots. An amazing 25%. Lebron is 34%, league average is 29.8%. Melo is actually the highest of those who have more than 25 at 48%.

 

[tyrant]

kobe can do everything lebron can do. and the only things kobe can do that lebron cant is play with his back towards the basket, and use his footwork to get off a shot if he picks up the dribble. kinda jordanesque. and kobe is a better jumpshooter. i recall a time when iverson was better than kobe. that was in the early 2000's. but that was before the lakers won their 3rd straight and iverson was mvp of the leauge with a whopping 31.1 ppg

 

[bigbadred00]

kobe can do everything lebron can do. and the only things kobe can do that lebron cant is play with his back towards the basket, and use his footwork to get off a shot if he picks up the dribble. kinda jordanesque. and kobe is a better jumpshooter. i recall a time when iverson was better than kobe. that was in the early 2000's. but that was before the lakers won their 3rd straight and iverson was mvp of the leauge with a whopping 31.1 ppg

Kobe CANNOT do everything Leborn can do. Kobe cannot guard 4s. Kobe does not goto the hole like Lebron can do cause Lebron is much stronger than Kobe and bigger, probably by 50 pounds. Kobe definitely does not have James' passing ability nor can he rebound the ball like Lebron.

 

[tyrant]

Kobe CANNOT do everything Leborn can do. Kobe cannot guard 4s. Kobe does not goto the hole like Lebron can do cause Lebron is much stronger than Kobe and bigger, probably by 50 pounds. Kobe definitely does not have James' passing ability nor can he rebound the ball like Lebron.

you know what, im going to give lebron some respect. he's a great player and i like him. he's top 3 in the leauge. but he's far from kobe and farther from jordan. when he faces a defender that can stay in front of him he has a tougher time scoring. he doesnt have enough in his repertoire. no footwork, no grace, no skill. like ive said before, just power. runs through you like a fullback. that works on weaker defenders. half the time its a charge