Chuck Hayes high post fail

[Admiral]

I have re-watched several games recently, and one criticism I haven't read yet is about Chuck Hayes. I know a lot of people are not high on him to begin with, can't say I disagree, but these last few games I've watched toward the end of the season, Chuck Hayes in the high post looking for a cutter, shooter, etc - NEVER works. I did not see ONE single successful attempt.

For all the talk about misusing Reke or IT being overused, etc etc....Chuck as a high post passer is just a miserable play against any opponent in any situation. I like his individual man defense, but wtf? This play NEVER works, why do we continue to try it? I'll admit I didn't track it for number of times tried/worked or in what situations, but from what I can recall now after the last Thunder game...why does Smart continue to try it?

This is likely a rhetorical question amongst many since nobody actually knows what he is thinking, but this was an underrreported dumb play/use/choice by our coach and I had to get it off my chest...

 

[Admiral]

I should note, I realize this is probably not new news, and it may have been a subject of conversation before that I did not see. That said, seeing it so much over these games I'm watching from this season just irritates me as much as trying Reke at the 3 and not playing defense.

 

[rainmaker]

Thing is, that's the only place he's ever been successful. That was where his success was in Hou. Problem is he can't do much anywhere else on offense, and when he does get the ball at the elbow, the defense just sags off him and clogs any passing lanes to a cutter/slasher going low. Him at the high post worked under Adelman because of personnel, and Rick ran a more complex offense(compared to use) which allowed cutters/slashers to free up easier, both by spacing/misdirection to off the ball screens, which Rick makes great use of and we rarely use under Smart.

 

[Admiral]

agreed completely, but when you try something that CONSISTENTLY fails - and miserably - why on earth do we keep trying it? Put JT or Cousins there any I guarantee we become more successful from what I've seen. Nobody thinks Hayes is a threat in anything but man D and putbacks, so why on earth are we running plays that are guaranteed to fail?

 

[kingjatt]

I hated how towards the end of the year he would wait about 2 seconds for a cutter then lower his head and bull rush into the lane only to get blocked or miss a layup, he is a big time liability on offense and on a playoff team would never get the ball on the offensive side. as rainmaker pointed out the princeton offense has many complex off ball components that can make a lot of bigs look like decent passers.

From what i've seen he is really only good at getting some post-up bigs off of the block, the taller and stronger ones just shoot over the top, he is a specialty player a best and should be the 4th or 5th big off of the bench in a game where the other team is constantly feeding the post and we need spare fouls/defense.

 

[kingjatt]

agreed completely, but when you try something that CONSISTENTLY fails - and miserably - why on earth do we keep trying it? Put JT or Cousins there any I guarantee we become more successful from what I've seen. Nobody thinks Hayes is a threat in anything but man D and putbacks, so why on earth are we running plays that are guaranteed to fail?

we have zero hierarchy in our offense. I have watched all of the playoff games in their entirety and compared to our offense its like a different world. Teams go to the post and work off of their first option as the ball flows from player to player until someone gets a decent look.

This entire year we had no discipline, patience, or accountability on the court. rarely would a player drive and kick, rarely would we reset back to the point guard if the look was not good enough, and nobody was penalized for doing dumb things on the court. outlaw chucking, MT chucking (excessively), salmons hero mode, guys who are suppose to play a role were trying to be "stars" and our real potential stars who should be getting most of the shots, reke and cuz, were phased out or rode the bench at a time when the season was lost and they should have been getting 20 plays run for them minimum each game and truely allowed to grow.

 

[bajaden]

agreed completely, but when you try something that CONSISTENTLY fails - and miserably - why on earth do we keep trying it? Put JT or Cousins there any I guarantee we become more successful from what I've seen. Nobody thinks Hayes is a threat in anything but man D and putbacks, so why on earth are we running plays that are guaranteed to fail?

Well, the problem is, Cuz and Thompson can't play the whole game, and right now, the only backup we have on the team is Hayes. And if he's going to play, he playes best from the high post. You may not have seen him make any nice passes, but believe me has had some success there. Not enough in my book to warrant our signing him though.

 

[Bricklayer]

Er...not much to say here except that I have to disagree. It was basically the only thing he did this year with any effectiveneess, and rarely would a game go by when we wouldn't get a backdoor cut out of those sets. However given his utter impotence at basically everything else, including rebounding and defense, which were supposed to be his specialties, the passing was just a marachino cherry on top of nothing.

 

[Admiral]

Er...not much to say here except that I have to disagree. It was basically the only thing he did this year with any effectiveneess, and rarely would a game go by when we wouldn't get a backdoor cut out of those sets. However given his utter impotence at basically everything else, including rebounding and defense, which were supposed to be his specialties, the passing was just a marachino cherry on top of nothing.

Totally fair - I can't say I paid too much specific attention to that for most of the games I watched this season, but in the few I was replaying it was incredibly frustrating (I guess a lot of our games are...) to watch. Maybe it's the combination of not doing anything else plus the few miffed ones I saw that is affecting my judgment.

 

[King Baller]

I give Hayes some slack due to the coaching change, his shoulder injury and the general dysfunction of the Kings. Here is a man who was told he has a faulty heart! Yet he came back and played, we were all rooting for his success. All that said I expected more from Hayes.

Which of these challenges I mention above caused the fall off from his Rockets days? Or is the problem more complex? Perhaps its a combination of them all with a lack of conditioning and team chemistry (The kind where the fellas have played together and DO without thinking) sprinkled in?

Anyhow I hope his play improves because he is on contract!

KB

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

My whole thing with Chuck is that IF he isn't going to defend the other teams best post player, then he shouldn't be on this team. That is why I wanted him starting. Chuck Hayes as a bench big man is pretty useless. His best 'strength' is his defense and 'chemistry' ... which are far less valuable when he's playing 20 minutes a night going up against backup big men.

 

[UK_King]

I saw plenty of occasions where he threw a nice pass from the high post.

the problem is giving him the ball in the high post, everyone else standing around looking at their shoes and then Chuck having to actually put the ball on the floor, which is never a good thing.

that said, even when he did drive he had some success.

 

[SacTownKid]

You have got to be kidding, or in complete denial. There was a stretch where the dude had a near 4 to 2 assist to turnover ratio. I don't know what games you watched, but you need to watch some more.

 

[SacTownKid]

My whole thing with Chuck is that IF he isn't going to defend the other teams best post player, then he shouldn't be on this team. That is why I wanted him starting. Chuck Hayes as a bench big man is pretty useless. His best 'strength' is his defense and 'chemistry' ... which are far less valuable when he's playing 20 minutes a night going up against backup big men.

Exactly. I don't understand why Smart continued to use him primarily as a backup 6'6" groundbound C and rarely against the players he was supposed to be defending, usually with DONTE GREENE at PF. He showed success against Al Jefferson, Lamarcus Aldridge, Blake Griffin, etc. and games would go by before you even saw him matched up with any of them again. In that unit with Donte you had one of your better wing defenders playing out of position and the guy you brought in to play with Cousins out of position. He can spend time at C and Donte looks better at PF but I just don't see any advantage to that lineup with them together. Neither is a great rebounder to boot so Done putting up his usual 4 per 48 and Hayes with his 8 per 48 just won't get it done there.

You can play a player like Hayes any minutes it takes, but the matchups just didn't make any sense. What a waste. Finally when Smart used him as a high post passer things started to come together and it made some sense.

 

[SacTownKid]

Totally CGI.... didn't happen.

 

[Entity]

Chuck Hayes Fail Title fixed

 

[spudfan]

I saw plenty of occasions where he threw a nice pass from the high post.

the problem is giving him the ball in the high post, everyone else standing around looking at their shoes and then Chuck having to actually put the ball on the floor, which is never a good thing.

that said, even when he did drive he had some success.

Agree. He would consistently set nice screens that would end up being useless. Guys would come off of them and then dribble around with no purpose. They either have to take a quick shot when they are open because of the screen or attack and pass it off when Chuck rolls. I think the lack of production is caused by many of the same things that haunt Evans. Being misused had a lot to do with it. Chuck should be in the high post as we have much better options down low.

 

[upinsmoke]

I don't think the lockout hurt any team more than us. The combination of almost no training camp and very and sometimes no practice time really impacted the season. With JT's potential looking better than previous years does trading Hayes make sense and if so what kind of return can we expect? (Hayes/Jimmer) package maybe.

 

[Tyndel]

I don't think the lockout hurt any team more than us. The combination of almost no training camp and very and sometimes no practice time really impacted the season. With JT's potential looking better than previous years does trading Hayes make sense and if so what kind of return can we expect? (Hayes/Jimmer) package maybe.

Sometimes you make your own luck if it hurt us more then other teams its because we let it. I am not convinced a training camp and practices under WP would have done any good anyway.... We already have 2 years of them before that....

Unfortunately with Hayes all aspects of his game are affected by his height. He gets blocked a good amount so he takes different shots then a 7 foot center does. From the high post he can pass better then average for a big man but anyone who reads a scouting report is going to have his defender sag way off and that is going to cut off passing lanes because he isn't going to shoot from there and his drive is slow. Since we don't set picks off the ball our system negates his greatest offensive strength combined with his very limited offense means we don't get a lot on that side.

I was all for bringing back Dally last year and thought we paid too much for Hayes but everyone was pumping his defense. Unfortunately I didn't see enough to make me believe we made the right decision signing him maybe we will see more in the future. Offensively we would have to design aspects of our offensive system around using him and I don't think its worth it because Cousins will be a better passer from both high and low post and we need to take advantage of that first. At least we have his outlets if he ever gets a rebound.

I don't think we will be able to move Hayes for anything but a bad contract. I don't think his contract is horribly big but I don't think its something other teams are dying to have either.

There is a feeling in the pit of my gut that says blowing it last year was the start of our talent loss. I have no faith in Petri anymore and enough talent to win only comes around every once in a great while as we well know and if you don't pull the trigger you start to leak that talent out for guys that are "ok" replacements and then you are capped and have no options. Thankfully we can always amnesty salmons and if we can move some of our filler we have one more chance this year.... oh wait broke owners...

 

[Sptsjunkie]

Thing is, that's the only place he's ever been successful. That was where his success was in Hou. Problem is he can't do much anywhere else on offense, and when he does get the ball at the elbow, the defense just sags off him and clogs any passing lanes to a cutter/slasher going low. Him at the high post worked under Adelman because of personnel, and Rick ran a more complex offense(compared to use) which allowed cutters/slashers to free up easier, both by spacing/misdirection to off the ball screens, which Rick makes great use of and we rarely use under Smart.

I would add that Rick didn't constantly ISO Chuck in the high post and run the offense through him. There was a lot more ball movement and Chuck is a good passer. However, there is a big difference between swinging the ball and letting a good passer make a good decision and running the offense through him. In the latter case, you allow the defender to just sag off and play free safety.

 

[Kingster]

Chuck Hayes just wasn't the player I saw in Houston. Very dissapointing. Maybe it's the shoulder, or maybe he's got more tread worn off the tires than we thought.

 

[kingjatt]

Chuck Hayes just wasn't the player I saw in Houston. Very dissapointing. Maybe it's the shoulder, or maybe he's got more tread worn off the tires than we thought.

coming in out of shape didnt help. Plus he just is what he is.

 

[SacTownKid]

coming in out of shape didnt help. Plus he just is what he is.

He is what he is and what he is is a specialist type. He's not a player that's going to go out there and give you 10 ppg and 10 rpg. He's a player that you stick on the other teams best scoring big and watch him pester him, that's the difference between now and Houston, they used him that way, Smart rarely did. Go back and watch him matching up with Jefferson in that one game, or Aldridge earlier in the year, or even Pau Gasol for stretches, now why didn't he guard them every game? He played but he spent more time on the other teams backup center than anyone else. It's like taking a 3 point shooter with no other elite skills and basing your driving game around him, it doesn't make sense.