Chris Webber...all that AND a bag of chips!

[Bricklayer]

I am. He is a poor free throw shooter and in the playoffs he tends to turn into a turnover machine. Also, other top teams in the West except for Seattle all have better power forwards (Duncan, Garnett, Nowitzki, Stoudamire). We get dominated on the boards anyway, and I know that Pedja is horrible at rebounding but it is not the other team's small forwards that snatch all the boards.
Had we not played against Dallas so many times (see no interior defense in the past) his playoff numbers would a lot worse.

Fine, you worry about the guy who averages 21pts 10rebs over his playoff career, and I'll worry about the guy who pulls the annual David Copperfield disappearing act and gets outplayed by Trenton Hassel.

 

[Stojakovic]

With all due respect Reina, you have never ever had a bad thing to say about your favorite player either. You should be the last one to accuse others of blind homerism.

 

[ReinadelosReys]

With all due respect Reina, you have never ever had a bad thing to say about your favorite player either. You should be the last one to accuse others of blind homerism.

What?

I root of the Kings, not one player. I want to see the team do well, not just one player have a great night. I could care less about individual preformances as long as the team wins. That's the way it was always been with me. If you think other wise, then you probably don't read most of my posts. I don't think I have even been place under that category...Please if someone else thinks I am, tell me.

 

[Stojakovic]

Fine, you worry about the guy who averages 21pts 10rebs over his playoff career, and I'll worry about the guy who pulls the annual David Copperfield disappearing act and gets outplayed by Trenton Hassel.

Oh great, another Peja vs Chris thread...and boy, do I miss those.

=|

 

[sloter]

Uh, ok

Nice argument ... so name one thing that is wrong in my statement.

 

[Stojakovic]

What?

What what ? This what !

Nah, then you would have an invasion of Peja-homers proclaiming his greatness, his new found leadership of the team yadda yadda yadda

 

[ReinadelosReys]

What what ? This what !

Ok, I know that my emotions have never really come across correctly, or even at all, through a computer screen, but this time I put a " " for crying out loud! It was a joke!

 

[ReinadelosReys]

Nice argument ... so name one thing that is wrong in my statement.

1. Its entirely too early in the morning to go into depth
2. I knew it was only a matter of time for Brick or someone else to come in and for the most part post what I am thinking.
3. 1+2= I'm too lazy right now. Ask me in about 12 hrs

 

[sloter]

With all due respect Reina, you have never ever had a bad thing to say about your favorite player either. You should be the last one to accuse others of blind homerism.

Exactly. What I said wasn't anti-Webber. It's a bunch of facts about his playoff performances. Pedja is not any better. But I don't get it where this overwhelming confidence came from when Webber struggled on BOTH ends of the floor in Dallas series and in the next series it was his man again who toyed with all of the Kings. Judging how Webber will do based on the game that he played against Indiana's 7th string is a little far fetched.

 

[ReinadelosReys]

Exactly. What I said wasn't anti-Webber. It's a bunch of facts about his playoff performances. Pedja is not any better. But I don't get it where this overwhelming confidence came from when Webber struggled on BOTH ends of the floor in Dallas series and in the next series it was his man again who toyed with all of the Kings. Judging how Webber will do based on the game that he played against Indiana's 7th string is a little far fetched.

First, I in no way shape or form proclaimed Webb to "be back" after the game vs. Indy. Second, this past Dallas series? Or the one the year before. Doesn't matter, that statement doesn't apply to either. The next series? In case you didn't notice KG is a hell of a player and would do that to anyone. But since you want to make this about Chris Webber and his playoff preformance, wasn't #4 praised all around and by several different people, the MVP himself, for what a job he did on him.

But you know what, this isn't about Chris Webber. This isn't about Peje Stojakovic either. Its about the Kings finally finding something to hold their hats on. Its about them as a group stepping up to get the job done, otherwise it will continue to be job left unfinished.

 

[Stojakovic]

Ok, I know that my emotions has never really come across correctly, or even at all, through a computer screen, but this time I put a " " for crying out loud! It was a joke!

I am usually emoticon literate, but in this case I completely missed it.

My apologies , my reaction was not correct.

And to answer to this "I don't think I have even been place under that category...Please if someone else thinks I am, tell me." ... are you telling me you're not a Webber homer (not that there is anything wrong with that, I'm absolutely a Stojakovic homer [DUH!] , and I know how annoying Peja homers on here can be...but I would say that I try to keep it real as much as I can) ? Wow ! Next thing piksi will come out and tell us he's not the founder of piksimism, but indeed the greatest optimist on kingsfans.

In short (the way I know you as a poster anyway) , if Webb had a 1/20 night with 10 turnovers you'd still say "He still scored a bucket !"

 

[sloter]

In case you didn't notice KG is a hell of a player and would do that to anyone.

So ? Webber will still be matched up against him and I would be very worried about the outcome of that match up.

 

[ReinadelosReys]

I am usually emoticon literate, but in this case I completely missed it.

My apologies , my reaction was not correct.

And to answer to this "I don't think I have even been place under that category...Please if someone else thinks I am, tell me." ... are you telling me you're not a Webber homer ? Wow ! Next thing piksi will come out and tell us he's not the founder of piksimism, but indeed the greatest optimist on kingsfans.

In short (the way I know you as a poster anyway) , if Webb had a 1/20 night with 10 turnovers you'd still say "He still scored a bucket !"

Maybe its just a matter of semantics or concepts of thing then. Am I an "optimist", sure, you can call me that. I by and large don't like to sit and pile on players--only when necessary. I like to look at the positive. Life is too short, and certianly the shelf life of incarnations of sports teams are too short to wallow on the negative (really, you should have heard me back in early 90's ).

Its not that I don't like the term " homer" I just don't like such definitive statements being placed next to my name and certinaly ones that I believe to be false. I have made no secret to the fact that in all of the NBA Webb is probably the player I enjoy the most, but not my favorite player on the Kings. I'll say it again, Kings fan 1st and always.

 

[ReinadelosReys]

So ? Webber will still be matched up against him and I would be very worried about the outcome of that match up.

Ok. But Sloter, there is a difference between saying something like that and what you said before. That concern has the same credence as a Mike Bibby-Sam Cassell match up, or a Doug Chrisite- Spreewell matchup, to which wouldn't be just be more accurate to say you worry about the whole team.

 

[sloter]

Not much difference, really, if you read it again. Fact after fact (and I was referring to last Dallas series when Webber's +/- was very bad). Normally, that's one team that he destroys, but he's having a really hard time keeping up with Nowitzki and judging by the way the German is playing this year, it might get even worse.
Bottom line, there's plenty of reasons for concern for Webber's playoff performance.

 

[ReinadelosReys]

Not much difference, really, if you read it again. Fact after fact (and I was referring to last Dallas series when Webber's +/- was very bad). Normally, that's one team that he destroys, but he's having a really hard time keeping up with Nowitzki and judging by the way the German is playing this year, it might get even worse.
Bottom line, there's plenty of reasons for concern for Webber's playoff performance.

1. C'mon, we all use stats to prove our points, but +/- stats!
2. Bottom line, there's plenty or reasons for concern for everyone's playoff preformance.

 

[Bricklayer]

Exactly. What I said wasn't anti-Webber. It's a bunch of facts about his playoff performances. Pedja is not any better. But I don't get it where this overwhelming confidence came from when Webber struggled on BOTH ends of the floor in Dallas series and in the next series it was his man again who toyed with all of the Kings. Judging how Webber will do based on the game that he played against Indiana's 7th string is a little far fetched.

Sorry to be the one to do this (no I'm not), but here goes:

Webber Annual Playoffs w/Kings
98-99 14.8pts (.388 FG%, .286 3pt%, .400 FT%) 9.4rebs 4.0ast 1.8stl 1.0blk 4.0TO
(REG SEAS: 20.1pts 12.9rebs 4.1ast)
99-00 24.4pts (.427 FG%, .200 3pt%, .794 FT%) 9.6rebs 5.4ast 1.6stl 2.0blk 1.6TO
(REG SEAS: 24.5pts 10.5rebs 4.6ast)
00-01 23.3pts (.388 FG%, .000 3pt%, .694 FT%) 11.5rebs 3.1ast 1.1stl 1.0blk 3.9TO
(REG SEAS: 27.1pts 11.1rebs 4.2ast)
01-02 23.7pts (.502 FG%, .000 3pt%, .596 FT%) 10.8rebs 4.7ast 0.9stl 1.6blk 2.9TO
(REG SEAS: 24.5pts 10.1rebs 4.8ast)
02-03 23.7pts (.496 FG%, .000 3pt%, .653 FT%) 8.3rebs 3.6ast 1.4stl 1.1blk 3.3TO
(REG SEAS: 23.0pts 10.5rebs 5.4ast)
03-04 18.4pts (.452 FG%, .250 3pt%, .615 FT%) 8.3rebs 3.7ast 1.3stl 0.8blk 3.2TO
(REG SEAS: 18.7pts 8.7rebs 4.6ast)

By Playoff Series Last 3 Years (only ones readily available)
UTA 01-02 40.0min 20.8pts (.417, --, .793) 10.8rebs 3.5ast 1.3stl 1.3blk 4.3TO
DAL 01-02 37.6min 25.2pts (.546, .000, .571) 10.8rebs 3.4ast 0.4stl 2.0blk 1.6TO
LAL 01-02 45.6min 24.3pts (.513, .000, .457) 10.9rebs 6.3ast 1.0stl 1.4blk 3.0TO
UTA 02-03 36.4min 22.2pts (.475, --, .577) 9.2rebs 3.0ast 1.6stl 1.4blk 2.8TO
DAL 02-03 32.0min 27.5pts (.559, .000, .739) 6.0rebs 5.0ast 1.0stl 0.5blk 4.5TO
DAL 03-04 37.0min 19.4pts (.447, --, .568) 9.2rebs 4.0ast 1.2stl 1.6blk 4.4TO
MIN 03-04 37.3min 17.7pts (.456, .250, .679) 7.6rebs 3.4ast 1.0stl 0.3blk 2.3TO

I don't worry about Webber, because he takes care of his business out there anymore. Its been years since his playoff performances dipped significantly below his regular season performances, no matter who the opponent is. In fact the single best playoff series he might have played in his life was in the biggest series in Sacramento era history.

P.S. BTW the other reason I do not worry about him is because he has emerged as a flat out leader out there -- it was he and Doug who tried to set the tone for the entire team in the playoffs last year. Webb WANTS it now. Something maybe he didn't when he was younger. The question is, the worry is, how badly do his teammates? No heart = no championship.

 

[sloter]

And your point is ?

This goes to show what I've been saying in this thread:
- Dallas series indeed boosts his playoff performance.
- He steadily plays worse in playoffs than in regular season.
- He is coming off his worst playoffs performance of his career.

 

[sloter]

1. C'mon, we all use stats to prove our points, but +/- stats!
2. Bottom line, there's plenty or reasons for concern for everyone's playoff preformance.

1. +/- is perhaps one of the most important stats. I don't care if you score 40 points if you lose the game and the rest of the team is out of synch cause you took 300 shots. +/- is the key stat that most of the coaches look at when deciding who should be getting more PT and who shouldn't. It also measure performance on both ends of the floor. Otherwise, why do you think people like Eric Williams would be in the NBA for so long ... ?
2. Agreed, that's why the Kings have been disappointing in the playoffs over the years.

 

[Bricklayer]

And your point is ?

This goes to show what I've been saying in this thread:
- Dallas series indeed boosts his playoff performance.
- He steadily plays worse in playoffs than in regular season.
- He is coming off his worst playoffs performance of his career.

Oh please.

What it shows is his playoff production has been very similar to his regular season production for years now, including last year BTW (which is a bogus point -- let's see one legged man averages 18pts and 8rebs during regular season and then 18pts and 8rebs during playoffs and yes, its a sign his playoff performances are declining?)

Can he singlehandedly lift up a team of deadweight during the playoffs? No. Hasn't shown that (yet). Do you have to worry about carrying Webb and making up for his disappearances? Not for many a year. He flat out shows up when it matters. Has for years.

 

[sloter]

Even though it takes 38% shooting for the whole series to do so ?

 

[Bricklayer]

1. +/- is perhaps one of the most important stats. I don't care if you score 40 points if you lose the game and the rest of the team is out of synch cause you took 300 shots. +/- is the key stat that most of the coaches look at when deciding who should be getting more PT and who shouldn't. It also measure performance on both ends of the floor. Otherwise, why do you think people like Eric Williams would be in the NBA for so long ... ?
2. Agreed, that's why the Kings have been disappointing in the playoffs over the years.

+/- is a largely problematic stat because it depends HEAVILY on rotation patterns/who you play with. Know who's #1 on the Kings in +/- right now? By a LOT? Mike Bibby. Know why? Because he almost never plays with the bench due to Bobby's presence.

 

[sloter]

And it makes sense. Did you expect Webber to be #1 ?
Webber plays with starting lineup most of the time anyway, so your point makes no sense in this case.

 

[Bricklayer]

Even though it takes 38% shooting for the whole series to do so ?

We aren't talking about Peja.

Webb got over his Peja disease sometime around the millenia (and the BIG turning point came when he resigned with the Kings and took responsibility for getting the team to the promised land. Was a big step forward maturity wise, and it showed on the court in the playoffs. It was his team, his responsibility. And if he was going to get his championship it would be with them). Before that time his rep as a playoff choker was moderately well deserved.

 

[Bricklayer]

And it makes sense. Did you expect Webber to be #1 ?
Webber plays with starting lineup most of the time anyway, so your point makes no sense in this case.

I didn't expect anyone to be or not be #1. The stat varies wildly in its results, always has. KG is exactly where you'd expect him to be, #1 on his team. So is Kobe. Ben Wallace on the other hand is irrlevant according to the stat. The most imprtant player on the Heat? Christian Laettner according to +/-. Shaq's not even a positive.

 

[LPKingsFan]

I am. He is a poor free throw shooter and in the playoffs he tends to turn into a turnover machine. Also, other top teams in the West except for Seattle all have better power forwards (Duncan, Garnett, Nowitzki, Stoudamire). We get dominated on the boards anyway, and I know that Pedja is horrible at rebounding but it is not the other team's small forwards that snatch all the boards.

Well, I think since you mention Amare, you have to mention Marion, who gets all the boards on that team. I would know, Amare's lack of boards is annoying for my fantasy team.

 

[sloter]

Well, I think since you mention Amare, you have to mention Marion, who gets all the boards on that team. I would know, Amare's lack of boards is annoying for my fantasy team.

Stoudamire is one of those nightmare matchups for Webber. Athletic, explosive, aggressive and jumps out of the gym. Webber actually might even be a better half-court player, but he would be as useful against him as Divac is against Dallas Mavs.

 

[KP]

Why do people Hate on/Bash the best player on their team?

It's funny but every game we've been playing lately I've just dropped by the other boards to see what they're saying and they all dog out/want to trade their best player. All I saw on Memphis site was let's get rid of Gasol. On Boston it was Let's trade Pierce for 3 guys from Portland. I mean the Kings have a lot of good players, so it's more understandable but Its really interesting. It's gotta be obvious... of our top, goto guys in the playoffs who hasn't been consistant right? And I'm not one of those idiot's who says things like ,"Pejas never done anything in the playoffs!" Cuz I watched him drop 39 on the Mavs when Webb went down and I saw him singlehandedly shoot us back into that game against Minni last year. He's also stepped up on D in Key situations. I guess my point is .. I don't know what my point is! Maybe we are too critical of a team that has been depleted and decimated the last few years going into the playoffs? Peja in 02(getting jobbed didn't help), Chris in 03 , and Bobby/Chris at 50% in 04 . Just a thought... Oh yeah and Chris dropped 28 and 10 against the suns effectively cancelling out Stoudamire and he carried us thru the game how's that useless??

 

[Kingsgurl]

Amare's athleticism makes him a tough match-up for anyone. However, in the one game we played against the Suns so far, Webb and Amare had pretty similiar stat lines

29-9-0-0-3 with 3 turnovers

28-10-3-1-1 with 2 turnovers

Care to guess which one was the beast and which the ineffective player?

 

[zip95843]

Amare's athleticism makes him a tough match-up for anyone. However, in the one game we played against the Suns so far, Webb and Amare had pretty similiar stat lines

29-9-0-0-3 with 3 turnovers

28-10-3-1-1 with 2 turnovers

Care to guess which one was the beast and which the ineffective player?

Who? :O