Chris, we hardly knew you
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Just yet another victim, Kriedler this time, of the pressure exerted from the Maloof Sports and Entertainment team. Was it really necessary to publish this on the eve of the most important player in Sacramento era history to return? I don't remember Kriedler even being out of high school to torch Richmond this way after he left. Propoganda aside, is Webb an enigma, well hell yes. The Kings propoganda machine has fallen on the slippery slope of making themsaelves look good by trying to make the ex-participants look bad or evil. It is indeed a sad state of affairs.
I thought it was an excellent piece by Kriedler. Webb was definately a quandry. I agree with VFs oiginal post. The articles does seem a tad negative but sometimes the truth hurts and this is one.
I wouldn't question Kriedlers sources myself. I think his record speaks for himself. Hes not a Vioson who grabs stuff out of thin air. He has the respect of the team and it shows in his articles.
I wouldn't question Kriedlers sources myself. I think his record speaks for himself. Hes not a Vioson who grabs stuff out of thin air. He has the respect of the team and it shows in his articles.
SIR HENRY 8 said:
I thought it was a little on the neg. side too.I gotta say watching 76ers/lakers game today,Webber just doesn't look right in that uniform,but he is still one georgous man
My Philly jersey is on its' way. I never thought I'd say that !!! I can add it to my 3 Kings jerseys
Hands off Sir Henry, he's mine !!!
I agree. I read this article last night, and frankly, I was disappointed. I usually like Mark Kreidler, but when he says that Webb has never made a point of saying he likes Sacramento, when one day before the trade Webb said he "wouldn't trade it for the world" isn't exactly fair in my book. Yes, Webb originally didn't want to come here, but he also didn't want to leave, and came to love the place. And yes, of course Webb was hurt by the booing, you don't expect that in Sac where we have the best fans in the NBA. All in all, Webb is not perfect, but a big part of his problems have been caused by simple statements made that were taken out of context by the media.
Example (imaginary of course, I'm speculating): After being upset by the booing an emotional Webb is asked "if the booing never stops, would you consider asking for a trade?" Webb "well, if it never stops I might talk to the Maloofs". Oh, bingo, Webb wants to leave.
Similarly, I feel that comments about Sac not having soul food, or Sac not having a large singles seen have been exploited to say that he is cutting down the city, when in actuality, it's just facts.
I don't know. I'm biased because I love Webb, but come on, after he has obviously been devastated about leaving, and has vocally said how much he CAME to love it here, is it really necessary to bring up that there were moments in the past 7 years where he was unhappy with some part of being here?
Example (imaginary of course, I'm speculating): After being upset by the booing an emotional Webb is asked "if the booing never stops, would you consider asking for a trade?" Webb "well, if it never stops I might talk to the Maloofs". Oh, bingo, Webb wants to leave.
Similarly, I feel that comments about Sac not having soul food, or Sac not having a large singles seen have been exploited to say that he is cutting down the city, when in actuality, it's just facts.
I don't know. I'm biased because I love Webb, but come on, after he has obviously been devastated about leaving, and has vocally said how much he CAME to love it here, is it really necessary to bring up that there were moments in the past 7 years where he was unhappy with some part of being here?
I thought the article was pretty fair. When you are paid one-eighth of a billion dollars to play basketball, you are going to come under some pretty serious scrutiny.
Obviously, he was the main guy to put us on the map (after he reluctantly agreed to play here). But the questions I had about his on and off-court judgement never left. Why make the statement that "this is still my team" when they go 43-15 without you??? Wasn't that a time for a little more humility? And on-court, I think he would get too hyped-up to think clearly in clutch time. Yeah, he hit a few threes to win us regular-season games, but he never put in any performance comparable to when KG scored every FG for his team in the 4th quarter against us in the deciding game.
And why insist on bringing the ball up at least once per game...and why shoot desperation 3's when it's not desperation time yet? Bad judgement.
BTW, I think he should be warmly welcomed at Arco.
Obviously, he was the main guy to put us on the map (after he reluctantly agreed to play here). But the questions I had about his on and off-court judgement never left. Why make the statement that "this is still my team" when they go 43-15 without you??? Wasn't that a time for a little more humility? And on-court, I think he would get too hyped-up to think clearly in clutch time. Yeah, he hit a few threes to win us regular-season games, but he never put in any performance comparable to when KG scored every FG for his team in the 4th quarter against us in the deciding game.
And why insist on bringing the ball up at least once per game...and why shoot desperation 3's when it's not desperation time yet? Bad judgement.
BTW, I think he should be warmly welcomed at Arco.
You know, I don't think I've ever waffled so much on one piece of writing. And that, to me, is an ultimate tribute if that is what Kreidler was trying to get across.
I read it AGAIN and I can't really fault anything Kreidler said. If he had brought up the good stuff I guess it wouldn't have felt the same way.
His title, after reflection, is very apt. We didn't know Webber. What we knew was what we saw on the court and in personal appearances. What we gathered from the media over the years became so hostile that you simply couldn't accept all of it.
I admire and respect Chris Webber. I am eternally grateful for what he brought to our Kings and what his presence gave to me as a Kings fan. I definitely wish he had done some things differently but he didn't live his life to live up to my expectations. And that's the way it should be.
All in all, he was, is and will always be C-Webb to us. We don't know the private person, any more than we know the private Mike Bibby, or any other player.
I'm rambling, I know, so I'll stop.
All I know is it's gonna be very emotional this evening - for those in Arco and those watching at home. I have my kleenex handy.
I read it AGAIN and I can't really fault anything Kreidler said. If he had brought up the good stuff I guess it wouldn't have felt the same way.
His title, after reflection, is very apt. We didn't know Webber. What we knew was what we saw on the court and in personal appearances. What we gathered from the media over the years became so hostile that you simply couldn't accept all of it.
I admire and respect Chris Webber. I am eternally grateful for what he brought to our Kings and what his presence gave to me as a Kings fan. I definitely wish he had done some things differently but he didn't live his life to live up to my expectations. And that's the way it should be.
All in all, he was, is and will always be C-Webb to us. We don't know the private person, any more than we know the private Mike Bibby, or any other player.
I'm rambling, I know, so I'll stop.
All I know is it's gonna be very emotional this evening - for those in Arco and those watching at home. I have my kleenex handy.
No, I knew exactly who Chris Webber was. He was a basketball player for the Sacramento Kings. He was a guy who helped lead them into basketball prominence. He was a fixture in the community. He is a man of immense pride. He is not a role model. He is human.
I for one have nothing bad to say about Chris. He was part of seven of the best, most exciting, most compelling, most enjoyable years of basketball I have ever had (or might ever have) the pleasure of watching. I can undoubtedly say that every night he not only wanted to win, but he gave his all to do so. We got the best out of him, perhaps the best anyone could.
That was the only Chris Webber I knew; I never asked, nor expected to know anymore.
I for one have nothing bad to say about Chris. He was part of seven of the best, most exciting, most compelling, most enjoyable years of basketball I have ever had (or might ever have) the pleasure of watching. I can undoubtedly say that every night he not only wanted to win, but he gave his all to do so. We got the best out of him, perhaps the best anyone could.
That was the only Chris Webber I knew; I never asked, nor expected to know anymore.
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You have to play the game the way you can play it.
And no, Webb was not shocked he was traded (nor did she say he was). Seems pretty obvious he feared it was coming -- even mentioned how he knew that if not for his trade kicker (which he waved) it may have happened before. Doesn't change the fact he was obviously devastated and did not want to go. After all those years had finally arrived as a leader and clutch shot maker just as the body went south. Finally really had a group behind him as "his team". And then just that quick, it, and the era, was over. You put your heart into something, and then its taken away, that's devastating. Why a lot of people never have the courage to do it in the first place. hate for that to be the lesson learned out of this one.
And no, Webb was not shocked he was traded (nor did she say he was). Seems pretty obvious he feared it was coming -- even mentioned how he knew that if not for his trade kicker (which he waved) it may have happened before. Doesn't change the fact he was obviously devastated and did not want to go. After all those years had finally arrived as a leader and clutch shot maker just as the body went south. Finally really had a group behind him as "his team". And then just that quick, it, and the era, was over. You put your heart into something, and then its taken away, that's devastating. Why a lot of people never have the courage to do it in the first place. hate for that to be the lesson learned out of this one.
Pretty good article overall, though Kriedler conviently forgets to mention that the Kings are actually WORSE off salary wise after this deal (they were over the cap anyway for the next 3 seasons with or without Webber's contract, assuming Peja is resigned) - now they're over the cap for 5 more years instead of three. The Sixers actually IMPROVE their salary cap situation down the road with this deal - that's why it was an automatic, no-brainer for them. That's the thing that bugs me most about discussion of this trade - the three contracts the Kings took on are just as much an albatross as Webber's MAX (anyone who thinks that the Kings can spin these deals for young talent/cap space is NUTS).
You can ask that question about alot of things on this team. Don't they know that management wants them to box out and play hard defense? Or get back on transition D? Well, we don't it. My only guess on this one is that Adelman likes to leave the responsibility with the players, and that in the interest of keeping the stars happy, he doesn't use minutes as a weapon. The biggest part of being a pro coach these days is being a psychologist for a bunch of highly-paid, highly-sensitive guys who might just take their ball and go home if they don't like things (e.g. Sprewell, Cassell, etc, etc....). Other teams are much, much worse about this than we are, but I think we still have an element of that here.
And look at what Webber said in Philly - he wants the coach to adjust to him, not the other way round, so I'm not sure how flexible he is.
And look at what Webber said in Philly - he wants the coach to adjust to him, not the other way round, so I'm not sure how flexible he is.
Let me get this straight. You watch the Kings? You watch Skinner play? You think even as a backup, him making 4.9million next year and 5.4million the year after is an albatross? Do yo think it is impossible to trade him? Would you even want to trade him? Corliss only has two years left on his deal. So, what you are really talking about is KT's contract. I will grant you that his contract is a little tougher to swallow. However, is Brian Cardinal that much better? Value is a relative thing.
I don't quite get your logic. Also, just to rehash the already rehashed, it's easier to move smaller even lousy contracts. There are plenty of bad GM's willing to take on bad contracts. Maybe you've heard of Auston Croshere, Jalen Rose, Adonal Foyle. Do you think Eric Dampier is really worth a 70 million dollar contract that expires 2011??? Maybe you've heard of Tariq Abdul Whahad. I bet you didn't realize he was making 6.7 million dollars this year and 7.3 million dollars next year. Is Tim Thomas really worth 12.9 million dollars this year? There are PLENTY of bad contracts to go around.
No offense RangerC, but if Geoff Petrie says the trade gives the team financial felxibility I'm inclined to believe him.
I don't quite get your logic. Also, just to rehash the already rehashed, it's easier to move smaller even lousy contracts. There are plenty of bad GM's willing to take on bad contracts. Maybe you've heard of Auston Croshere, Jalen Rose, Adonal Foyle. Do you think Eric Dampier is really worth a 70 million dollar contract that expires 2011??? Maybe you've heard of Tariq Abdul Whahad. I bet you didn't realize he was making 6.7 million dollars this year and 7.3 million dollars next year. Is Tim Thomas really worth 12.9 million dollars this year? There are PLENTY of bad contracts to go around.
No offense RangerC, but if Geoff Petrie says the trade gives the team financial felxibility I'm inclined to believe him.
Article is not that bad, but it isn't a great article either. It seems like Mark went out to write up an article on Webber the human paradox/enigma/walking contradiction and while there is a lot of truth to that, some contradictions that were snuck in there do not bear scrutiny.
For example, writing that Webber was hurt by all the speculation surrounding Webber-Pedja relations and confirming that Webb and Pedja were friendly off the court does not make Webber look contradictory. It just goes to show that Voisin and Co. were full of it with all the baseless speculation that ran on for months. Webber never said that he disslikes Pedja and then backtracked or vice versa, it was writers in the first place who invented and then inflated the rift.
Same with Jackson quotes. It is Bobby who is all over the map if anyone, not Webber.
My problem with Webber was that he wanted to be like any other NBA superstar, when he was already BETTER then most. Without huge game winning shots or jewelery, pre-injury Webber was already better player then many that were elevated to "higher stardom" by media and random acts of senseless fandom. In my mind before, injury Webber was better/more special then KG (so sue me if you think this is homerism). If you want contradiction or controversy, that is it in my mind. He was much better already then what he seemed to aspire to be.
For example, writing that Webber was hurt by all the speculation surrounding Webber-Pedja relations and confirming that Webb and Pedja were friendly off the court does not make Webber look contradictory. It just goes to show that Voisin and Co. were full of it with all the baseless speculation that ran on for months. Webber never said that he disslikes Pedja and then backtracked or vice versa, it was writers in the first place who invented and then inflated the rift.
Same with Jackson quotes. It is Bobby who is all over the map if anyone, not Webber.
My problem with Webber was that he wanted to be like any other NBA superstar, when he was already BETTER then most. Without huge game winning shots or jewelery, pre-injury Webber was already better player then many that were elevated to "higher stardom" by media and random acts of senseless fandom. In my mind before, injury Webber was better/more special then KG (so sue me if you think this is homerism). If you want contradiction or controversy, that is it in my mind. He was much better already then what he seemed to aspire to be.
The three contracts as a combination are the problem. Can we trade Skinner? Sure - but we're still over the cap (same thing if Thomas/Williamson are traded), and I don't see what we can get back that puts this team back in championship contention. I almost think that three small bad contracts are harder to move for value than one big one (if we would have waited until the last year of Webber's contract to trade him, I bet we could have gotten something REALLY good for the $20 million in cap relief - look at what the Warriors got with just Dale Davis' expiring K this year!)
Are you trying to make my point for me? The Pacers have been trying to move Austin Croshere for YEARS and have gotten no takers. Foyle has never been traded (and never will be, except for another bad contract). Dampier was a FA signing. TAW was a throw-in to make salaries match. Jalen Rose was traded for an equally bad MAX deal (Antonio Davis). Of the players you mentioned, just 2 have been traded after their big contract (TAW was cap filler, and Rose was traded for another monster contract). GM's are happy to take on bad contracts, if they GET talent (Dallas taking on TAW's deal) or GIVE another bad contract back (Rose/Davis deal). There's a popular delusion that Petrie will be able to spin some combination of Skinner/Thomas/Corliss/BJax for some combination of young talent and capspace, and I just don't see how that can happen.
Are you trying to make my point for me? The Pacers have been trying to move Austin Croshere for YEARS and have gotten no takers. Foyle has never been traded (and never will be, except for another bad contract). Dampier was a FA signing. TAW was a throw-in to make salaries match. Jalen Rose was traded for an equally bad MAX deal (Antonio Davis). Of the players you mentioned, just 2 have been traded after their big contract (TAW was cap filler, and Rose was traded for another monster contract). GM's are happy to take on bad contracts, if they GET talent (Dallas taking on TAW's deal) or GIVE another bad contract back (Rose/Davis deal). There's a popular delusion that Petrie will be able to spin some combination of Skinner/Thomas/Corliss/BJax for some combination of young talent and capspace, and I just don't see how that can happen.
Mark Kreidler
what the hell is this guy's problem? why can't he just admit that chris was the best thing that ever happened to this kings franchise. yes chris never led us to a championship, but a team without him won't either. he says and i quote, "There is nothing about Webber's tenure in Sacramento that evokes one solitary emotion. And unless some truly amazing revisionist history someday takes root, there never will be"
what a bunch of **** --- I can think of one solitary emotion its called JOY!!! which was seriously lacking before he got here!!!
what the hell is this guy's problem? why can't he just admit that chris was the best thing that ever happened to this kings franchise. yes chris never led us to a championship, but a team without him won't either. he says and i quote, "There is nothing about Webber's tenure in Sacramento that evokes one solitary emotion. And unless some truly amazing revisionist history someday takes root, there never will be"
what a bunch of **** --- I can think of one solitary emotion its called JOY!!! which was seriously lacking before he got here!!!
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Geoff Petrie is not considered a genius for nothing. The guy knows what he's doing, I think he's earned our full trust. The guy built this team from the ground up, I think he knows how to maintain it and improve it. Everyone (myself included) thought he got three "who the hell are these guys" players in return for Webber. Obviously, that's not the case. That should show you something right there. Skinner was rotting on the Sixer bench, but Petrie knew what the guy could do. Who thought Kenny Thomas would be as good as he has been? These guys can flat out play some ball. I think it's a great testament to Petrie's skills as a GM that these players are now fitting in so well and contributing. I have no doubts that Petrie will be able to trade any of them or any other players on the Kings roster to turn this team into a title contender once again.
I remember that someone changed their signature to "It's Petrie I Disgust" but it's clearly time to change it back to "In Petrie I Trust".
I remember that someone changed their signature to "It's Petrie I Disgust" but it's clearly time to change it back to "In Petrie I Trust".
You might want to read the part you quoted again:
What Kreidler is saying, and quite correctly, is that Webber's time in Sacramento brought forth a lot of different emotions and always will. Some people never forgave him for his off-court misdeeds. Others thought he was an egotist from the beginning. Others were overjoyed to see him come to Sacramento.
You're dumping on the wrong Bee writer if you want to find someone who took every opportunity to lambast Webber.
What Kreidler is saying, and quite correctly, is that Webber's time in Sacramento brought forth a lot of different emotions and always will. Some people never forgave him for his off-court misdeeds. Others thought he was an egotist from the beginning. Others were overjoyed to see him come to Sacramento.
You're dumping on the wrong Bee writer if you want to find someone who took every opportunity to lambast Webber.
Petrie has made msitakes before. In fact even been fired ("resigned") before, in large part for failing to stop a former elite team's decline. He's not infallible. Very good. But not infallible. I think I know what he was doing with this trade, and in large part he was putting the franchise in his own hands over the summer, confident in his ability to cash in our chips and get the right pieces. But whether that was a good gamble or a bad one won't be known until October rolls around and we see what the new team is going to look like. If its not a contender, or with enough talent to be one in the near future, red question marks will flash over the trade.
Maybe, but I have a very good feeling about Petrie on this one. As for his record with the Kings, it's been pretty stellar. Yes, he made a few bad moves (Nick Anderson) and getting Cleeves for Barry, but his major moves overwhelmingly override the few minor mistakes he's made.
The other side of this trade is Webber's health. I think a major reason the trade was made was that the Kings didn't think Webber could either continue to perform at a high level or even last for the last 3 years of his contract. It makes sense since the knee is only going to get worse with time, not better. So if things go sour in Philly and Webber goes down in the next year or so, it will only make Petrie look smarter for trading him while he still had value.
The other side of this trade is Webber's health. I think a major reason the trade was made was that the Kings didn't think Webber could either continue to perform at a high level or even last for the last 3 years of his contract. It makes sense since the knee is only going to get worse with time, not better. So if things go sour in Philly and Webber goes down in the next year or so, it will only make Petrie look smarter for trading him while he still had value.
I don't have to. I've been reading Mark's articles for a long time. I've even been quoted in a couple of them. Perhaps you should do some research before stereotyping him.
Of all the writers working for the Sports department of the Sacramento Bee, Mark Kreidler, Marty McNeal and Joe Davidson have always been supportive of the team. Marty is probably the least controversial as he generally just does the actual game reporting. Ailene Voisin and Marcos Breton, along with Ron Wenig, have various axes to grind. AV hates Webber and Adelman. Breton hates the Maloofs. Wenig seems to hate everyone, especially if it means he can use them to make snide comments.
Kreidler's piece may have not struck your fancy, but he is NOT a hater.
Of all the writers working for the Sports department of the Sacramento Bee, Mark Kreidler, Marty McNeal and Joe Davidson have always been supportive of the team. Marty is probably the least controversial as he generally just does the actual game reporting. Ailene Voisin and Marcos Breton, along with Ron Wenig, have various axes to grind. AV hates Webber and Adelman. Breton hates the Maloofs. Wenig seems to hate everyone, especially if it means he can use them to make snide comments.
Kreidler's piece may have not struck your fancy, but he is NOT a hater.
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