Chances Salmons is traded?
- Thread starter Bibby.10
- Start date
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Good question. I'm betting the house that Salmons is gone by the trade deadline.
DocHolliday
Starter
I'm willing to bet you lose the house.
A
AriesMar27
Guest
ditto.... your house would be a gonner. i doubt that we make any moves...
Same. But only if we get a good young prospect or two in return. I don't want to give him away like we did Bibby and will probably be doing Miller.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
We know that Brad is being shopped, which necessarily means that John cannot be because Geoff can only process a single move at a time before relapsing into slumber while he evaluates the dramatic changes that moving a single player has created.
SacKings7
Starter
Maybe we get lucky and he packages them together
HighTopKicks
Bench
Your overall high opinion of GP aside, it's been stated as recently as a week ago by the new assistant GM, that the Kings are very concerned about cap space. And, with the deals with Miami & New York seemingly drying up, trading Brad for cap space may not be possible. Trades with Chicago, Charlotte, & Cleveland look more line pipe dreams on our part. Chicago wants our young bigs not Miller, Cleveland continues to win even with injuries, and Charlotte has DeSagana Diop now so they don't need Miller. Which may end the Miller trade talks, since GP would probably keep him and let his contract expire naturally then trade him for garbage.
Gary
All-Star
Same.. I am not expecting anything from Petrie. If something happens look for it to happen before the deadline (meaning days if not a week or two before) not the day of the deadline.
Sptsjunkie
Starter
Yeah, I would expect any deals from us to occur very close to the deadline. The problem is the players we would offer (Brad and Salmons) are players are both just role players who other teams will only sacrifice youth and picks for if they sense close to the deadline that they need our guys to make a championship push. Basically, their value will go up closer to the trade deadline when a fringe team decides that a role player like Brad or John might be the potential difference maker for them.
KCKingsCountry
G-League
Draft picks are acquired at the trade deadline for players like Salmons. More young players we can get more likely you can get a superstar for them and some old expirings like KT or Miki Moore.
NoBonus
Starter
True dat.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Good point. Maybe I will lose that house...
ZZE916
Bench
Noah?!?
I sure hope not. I will be surprised if there are any trades made involving "core" players. I expect some movement, but nothing that will make any difference in the team's performance this year.
Entity
Hall of Famer
Somebody help me out here. John is a good defender right? he has always been a decent ball handler for the 3 and a good passer for the 3. He has always been able to penetrate and get the short jumper or finish at the rim. I get the "good player on a bad team" thing. I have watched every kings game for years now. So with the aquisition of John its safe to say I have seen him play every game the last 3 years. I notice one thing this year that sets apart the years past. His 3pt shooting not only is he taking (becuase he used to pass it up and drive into traffic and drove me crazy) but his making them at 40% clip. He is now a 3pt threat. I thought early it was just a fluke but, he continues to take that shot and not force the drive and he has become a better player because of it. Now I know this is what makes his trade value climp the charts. I am just wondering what more could we ask of a SF? good defense good passer good ball handler able to finish at the rim a decent rebounder for the SF and a deep threat. Now I know he just turned 29. I know we are building for the future and all but he is starting to be a steal at this point.
Basically I need somebody to sell me on the point that he has to be traded right now.
Basically I need somebody to sell me on the point that he has to be traded right now.
beb0p
Starter
Because it's about selling high. There is no possible way that Salmons can put up better numbers than what is currently. In fact, his numbers are probably inflated due to his almost 20 attempts a game, something he will not get unless he's on another equally bad team. Here is a guy at his peak, and in theory at least, can fetch the most value in return. If we wait another year, he could fall back to earth.
Second, Salmons is just a tad too old to be considered the future. When you have someone who isn't part of the future and has a peak value while the team is battling for the worst record, trade him.
Disclaimer: The above is in no way saying that Salmons isn't a good player or deny that he has improved his game. Nor should it be interpreted as me suggesting a fire sale or making a trade just to get rid of Salmons. Any trade should be conducted only if it makes sense for the Kings. Nor should my post be interpreted as hating on Salmons in any way or that I won't be fine with keeping him should there not be a trade that makes sense.
DocHolliday
Starter
And how long do we continue to "sell" off players? I understand he's a tad bit older. But doesn't his contract last for 2 more seasons? So he'll be 31 at the end of the 10-11 season. Why would we continue to get rid of performing players? Someone that can go to the bench at some point (like it or not).
How about we worry about Millers and Thomas's contracts expiring, or being traded, we find ourselves a pg, continue developing Jason and Spencer, and begin to develop Donte at some point.
beb0p
Starter
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
John is a selfish player. He is a career long loser. He cannot play with other good players who demand the ball. Even his defense is selfish -- he is a good man defender. Utterly worhtless as a help defender. He might be very good in a one on one league. He plays a team sport.
And he is old for a rebuilding team. Which is really the only thing that needs to be said about it. If he was an impact player, you could accept his age because he would be one of the guys who could make you win in furture years. He;s no impact player. He's a good numbers guy on a 10-31 team. His +/- on the season is NEGATIVE at -6.7. Do I actually believe we are better off without him? Not really. But clearly he's not helping much, because it all has to be about him.
He is old, he is not going to make you win, and his numbers will NEVER be better than they are right now. As soon as you get talent they will slip, both because the talent will get shots of their own, and because John doesn't know how to play once that happens. This is classic sell high stuff -- something we never do. The crap this franchise finds itself in at this point is no accident -- it comes from making the same mistakes again and again. And one of them is not recognizing when a guy is not part of the future and moving him when his value is highest. Right now, if there is a team out there either stupid enough or depserate enoguh to take a chance on John's inability to play with other good players, he could net us something that WILL be useful to us in 3 years, or 4 years or 5 years, or whenever it turns around. If we wait, as petrie always does, until he of course proves he can't play with others, until teams notice that since Keivn came back he is averaging 16.5pts on 44% shooting and the defense has fallen off, then that value will be gone.
MassachusettsKingsFan
All-Star
I think the biggest reason we need to trade John ( need may be too harsh a word, but whatever .. ) is Donte Greene. We need Donte to play, let him make those rookie mistakes and get used to the NBA game. Salmons, Martin and Garcia are all locked up for more than 2 years and someone has to go before that two years passes so we dont miss out on Greene. Salmons seems like the best out of those three to trade for a few reasons.
1) Oldest - obvious.
2) Cant perform from the bench ( garcia can, and martin wouldnt go to the bench )
3) Higher trade value than garcia will ever have and the highest salmons will ever have
.. probly more, thats all I can think about right now
On top of all this, what has salmons really brought to this team? were 10 - 31 .. maybe we lose 3 of those ten wins without him and we would be in the OKC range, and thats a good thing.
I really fear for Donte Greene. His situation is starting to remind me of another green, Gerald Green. The Celtics were terrible when they drafted him and decided to keep him on the bench for 2 - 3 straight years for NO reason, he never got a chance to develope for them and he is actually starting to play decent in Dallas .. I dont want Donte to get that kind of treatment. I dont understand why bad teams keep young players on the bench, I cant think of a situation were that has worked out well ( maybe kendrick perkins? ) but darko, Gerald Green, Brandon Wright and others never had a chance when there teams never play them ..
And thats why we need to trade Salmons, This year. if we trade him in the offseason, there is a good chance petrie signs another swingman and then greene gets buried on the bench again .. its sad but its wayy to possible.
That being said, we prob wont trade him ...
1) Oldest - obvious.
2) Cant perform from the bench ( garcia can, and martin wouldnt go to the bench )
3) Higher trade value than garcia will ever have and the highest salmons will ever have
.. probly more, thats all I can think about right now
On top of all this, what has salmons really brought to this team? were 10 - 31 .. maybe we lose 3 of those ten wins without him and we would be in the OKC range, and thats a good thing.
I really fear for Donte Greene. His situation is starting to remind me of another green, Gerald Green. The Celtics were terrible when they drafted him and decided to keep him on the bench for 2 - 3 straight years for NO reason, he never got a chance to develope for them and he is actually starting to play decent in Dallas .. I dont want Donte to get that kind of treatment. I dont understand why bad teams keep young players on the bench, I cant think of a situation were that has worked out well ( maybe kendrick perkins? ) but darko, Gerald Green, Brandon Wright and others never had a chance when there teams never play them ..
And thats why we need to trade Salmons, This year. if we trade him in the offseason, there is a good chance petrie signs another swingman and then greene gets buried on the bench again .. its sad but its wayy to possible.
That being said, we prob wont trade him ...
nbrans
All-Star
I feel like that takes things a little too far. John is a good defender, and he's almost always guarding the opponent's best 2 or 3. He's not SUPPOSED to be playing team defense, he needs to be keying on the other team's scorer and not letting them get easy looks. I wouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth on this one. On a team with terrible defenders he's the only passable one. He could stop playing defense altogether and it wouldn't really matter at this point, but he has the pride to keep on playing defense like the games matter. I don't think it's necessary to twist John's one unambiguous positive attribute and turn it into a negative.
The problem with John is that his offense depends on him having the ball and probing the defense one on one. He's not a spot up shooter, he's not someone who gets garbage points... he has to pound the ball to be effective and he has to have his number called. When he's not, he's not effective. That's just his game, and it's why he's destined to be a good player on a bad team.
Whether it's a character flaw or just a result of trying to do what he's best at I'll leave to the armchair psychologists. I tend to think he means well but is just a limited player.
But as you pointed out in the midseason stats thread today, the TEAM'S +/- on the season is -8.8. Correcting for the team +/- would put Salmons at +2.1. (That said, I'm not a big fan of +/- as I've stated before, but it's more useful over a 41-game stretch than from just an individual game.)
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
You are talking team point differential.
The individual +/- for each player on the team is calculated according to how the team does with or without him -- otherwise they would be a simple expression of the team's ability. In other words, all that matters is the difference between how the team performs while he is on the floor vs. how it performs while he is off the floor. If you get outscored by 100 while a guy is off the floor, and 104 while he is on the floor, then the +/- is still just -4.0. You still get whipped either way, you just get whipped a little worse while he is oncourt than offcourt. Here are the Kings' +/- numbers:
Thomspon +9.1
Thomas +6.9
Udrih +5.9
Martin +5.6
Miller +2.4
Williams +2.2
Douby +1.8
Moore +1.5
Greene -1.3
Brown -3.4
Jackson -4.2
Salmons -4.4
Cisco -6.5
Hawes -9.1
As an aside -- missed on John's negative. -4.4, not -6.7. Had not looked in a week or so, and thinnk I flipped he and Cisco.
Lest anyone accuse this of being a fluke, here are John Salmons +/- numbers over his career:
08-09 -4.4
07-08 -8.3
06-07 -5.2
05-06 -5.0 (Philly)
04-05 -5.1 (Philly)
03-04 -0.6 (Philly)
02-03 -1.4 (Philly)
Not once, in 7 years in the league, has having John Salmons on the floor resulted in better results for his team than not having John Salmons on the floor. Now just don't tell any of our potential trade partners. I have never been a true believer of +/- stats in which all sorts of things go into them. Kevin Garnett had a negative +/- a few years back, so did Ben Wallace in his prime. But never consistently, never an annual trend in the face of good looking numbers.
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HighTopKicks
Bench
You continue to neglect to mention the positives. Is that because your arguement is weak if all the facts are known?
Yes, John's pts are down, well that's to be expected with Martin returning to the primary scorers role. What about John's 3pt shooting percentage going up and that 1/3 of his shots have be from 3pt since Martins return. Or, that his rebounds and assists are up since Martins return. That's not a player that can't play with others, that's a player that can contribute in alot more ways than just scoring.
Your idea, of trading him while is value is high, is valid. But, your failure to point out both sides of the man's value, devalues you and your opinion.
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