Chad Ford's Trade: Martin for Rubio/M.Blount/O.Pecherov's

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i'd take kevin love over joakim noah, to be perfectly honest. k-love's got a higher ceiling, imo...

after coming back from injury this season, he's averaging 14.5 pts/gm, 12.3 rbs/gm, and 2.4 asts/gm. he was a real bright spot for the t-wolves in a bad loss to the hawks tonight with 15 pts and 19 rbs. he's got beastly talent in the post, tons of moves with which to score, and he just gobbles up the d-boards. he's what i wish spencer hawes could become...

I like Kevin Love and was warning people last year of his freakish strength and rebounding, BUT...its apples and oranages. Noah is that perfect roleplaying combo big. Plays defense, boards, can play the 4/5. It sperfect, and its exactly what we need. Love...well, depsite the things Love deos well he's a little bit of a mess as far as where he could fit. Never going to be able to defend. Nor be a great post player in the league. In any case clearly too small and groundbound to be that big 4/5 defender/rebounder, so Noah works better for us. Love might be better, or at least a better prospect, if we needed a starting 4 -- maybe a less three happy Troy Murphy type. But we need a big guy to clog the middle, and we need him to stay out of the way offensively. That's Noah.
 
Al Jefferson? Really? An undersized big man who can't play defense? I think we've been there already.

Love on the other hand...but we still should try for Noah. Its just too damn bad he's doing so well this year. His breakout year really could've waited a season.


Jefferson is NOT undersized at PF, where he should play, -- he's 6'10". And he's one of the best post players in the league. You never sneeze at 20-10 guys. Normally only half a dozen of them in the league at any one time, and goto inside players are always a rare commodity. Defense is an issue, but it would be less so if he was back at his normal position rather than being forced to play the pivot because Minny sucks and keeps drafting midgets.
 
If yall remember I was a Kevin Love homer back before last years draft :( I would take Love for Martin in a heartbeat, and I am a huge Martin fan! Love is just a smart BBall player.. He's a bigger Brockman.. Isn't that what we wanted? :)
 
Al Jefferson? Really? An undersized big man who can't play defense? I think we've been there already.

Love on the other hand...but we still should try for Noah. Its just too damn bad he's doing so well this year. His breakout year really could've waited a season.
He is not undersized as a PF and is one of the best post players in the league. A 20-10 PF that is young and was contreversially overlooked for the all-star game last year.

Pair Al Jefferson with Tyreke and plug the holes with the other 3 positions on the court and you are set as a contender for a long time.

Al's defensive issues wouldn't be as evident if he was a PF and if somehow you could get a defensive C (even someone like Gortat)
 
Playing the point in high school was all the credential Rose or Jennings needed to be declared PG's before they went on to play one and zero years respectively of point in college.


Scouts take on Rose coming out of college...Positives: Pass-first point guard with excellent floor vision and handle.

and Jennings.... PG PG PG! well you do i really need to waste my time... TRUE PG!

Tyreke Evans Scouts take- Classic 2-guard, Scorer's mentality...

hey but thanks coming out and clearing it up! that theres no question Evans is a PG all the way forever and ever....

your point is technically true... but a really weak point... IF you asked Evans if he is a PG he wouldn't answer.

and because he is just a ball'a like he says when asked... that leads to the confusion and the conversation were having right now.... i dont understand why anyones arguing over the confusion of Evans being a PG... its totally understandable... Evans seems to be doing just fine right now, but Martin and Evans did struggle together a little bit...

personally i think Evans is gonna be a great PG and will stay there his whole career... trading Martin for anything other than another SG or C is retarded.... but what i said above is why some here think we still need Rubio or another TRUE PG...
 
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Most of you have already ripped this trade, but I might as well add in a big "heck no".

The value actually isn't too bad, but it completely ignores what this team needs. Let's ignore for the moment that our most pressing need is in the frontcourt. Even if you assume that Martin won't fit well next to him, which is still quite unproven since we have yet to see them for any extended period together, Rubio is an even worse fit next to 'Reke. You would have two ball-dominant guards who currently have unreliable outside shots playing next to eachother. Rubio is also at least as bad (if not worse) individual defender at his position than Martin is. So now you have downgraded the offense without upgrading the defense in any way, which is stupid.

It really doesn't matter whether or not Evans is a PG or a SG, what matters is what guard you put next to him when he is on the court. Ideally, what you would want next to him is a guard who can stay in front of some of the quicker guards in the league on defense. That frees Tyreke to take whoever is the bigger/stronger opposing guard on court, which he handles quite well. Then on offense, the guard would work very well off-the-ball with a reliable 3-pt shot and a decent midrange.

Martin isn't quite the ideal player to play next to Tyreke, but he is 100x closer to what we need than Rubio. You don't trade your best asset (other than Tyreke) for a worse fit.
 
Most of you have already ripped this trade, but I might as well add in a big "heck no".

The value actually isn't too bad, but it completely ignores what this team needs. Let's ignore for the moment that our most pressing need is in the frontcourt. Even if you assume that Martin won't fit well next to him, which is still quite unproven since we have yet to see them for any extended period together, Rubio is an even worse fit next to 'Reke. You would have two ball-dominant guards who currently have unreliable outside shots playing next to eachother. Rubio is also at least as bad (if not worse) individual defender at his position than Martin is. So now you have downgraded the offense without upgrading the defense in any way, which is stupid.

It really doesn't matter whether or not Evans is a PG or a SG, what matters is what guard you put next to him when he is on the court. Ideally, what you would want next to him is a guard who can stay in front of some of the quicker guards in the league on defense. That frees Tyreke to take whoever is the bigger/stronger opposing guard on court, which he handles quite well. Then on offense, the guard would work very well off-the-ball with a reliable 3-pt shot and a decent midrange.

Martin isn't quite the ideal player to play next to Tyreke, but he is 100x closer to what we need than Rubio. You don't trade your best asset (other than Tyreke) for a worse fit.
I agree with the bolded statement and actually think that Beno is a better fit with Tyreke. Like I said in my previous post in this thread Jordan won with BJ Armstrong and Steve Kerr playing alongside of him and Wade won with Damon Jones. Beno is much more in line with an Armstrong/Kerr/Jones type of player than Kevin is. Martin probably should be traded... what can we get for him that we NEED is the big question? Okafor is the player that fits best on this roster but Martin should be worth more than that... if we could figure out a way to package Martin/KT/Noc for Okafor and a lottery pick that would be ideal imo. We'd have to take some salary back somehow though.
 
Why are you guys already concluding that Martin/Evans backcourt will not work? They did play together a few games. But those were the first few games of the season on team which just got a new coach and a lot of new faces. Westphal is a genius and he will make the Martin/Evans backcourt tandem work.

Example is why in the world would Westphal start Omri/Greene at 2 if Beno is the best complimentary player to Evans? That my friend is because Evans is a monster on the PG spot.
 
Why are you guys already concluding that Martin/Evans backcourt will not work? They did play together a few games. But those were the first few games of the season on team which just got a new coach and a lot of new faces. Westphal is a genius and he will make the Martin/Evans backcourt tandem work.

Example is why in the world would Westphal start Omri/Greene at 2 if Beno is the best complimentary player to Evans? That my friend is because Evans is a monster on the PG spot.
Historically speaking it doesn't look good... can't find any examples of any really successful teams with a similar pairing to Reke and Kmart.
 
Historically speaking it doesn't look good... can't find any examples of any really successful teams with a similar pairing to Reke and Kmart.

I'm not convinced that's a particularly good argument. Now, come up with a whole bunch of unsuccessful teams with a similar pairing to Evans and Martin and you might have something.
 
I'm not convinced that's a particularly good argument. Now, come up with a whole bunch of unsuccessful teams with a similar pairing to Evans and Martin and you might have something.

thats because no coach has ever forced the issue this hard. we have omri and greene starting at sg to force the opposing teams hand. they either leave their 6'1 pg on evans or put him on omri/greene. its a mismatch either way. its like nellieball in reverse, go big in the back court and see what happens. though a evans/martin/caspi/greene/thompson lineup would make don nelson lose his mind... he would love it. all of those 6'6-6'11 players all playing at once.
 
I'm not convinced that's a particularly good argument. Now, come up with a whole bunch of unsuccessful teams with a similar pairing to Evans and Martin and you might have something.
You're right... I can't find any successful or unsuccessful pairings of similar players. We'll have to wait and see.
 
I am not sure you trade for a guy two years away from being able to come into the league, even if I really like Rubio.

The whole suggestion is based on the reality that most Kings people have tried to ignore, that Evans should be playing at the 2. End game situations like the Cavs game show Tyreke is better being set up rather than Tyreke being the initiator. Beno decided to defer to Evans and it didn't really work, in comparison to games where Beno has not deferred, and bailed out Evans at the end of games.

People keep comparing Evans to guys like James, Roy, Wade, Rose and Magic. Those are all flattering comparisons, but the one constant difference in those comparisons is that Evans is a worse passer than any of those guys. Sure, Evans is a size mismatch at the 1, but he still is a size mismatch versus many 2s. Why sacrifice the team offense just to make teams double a relunctant passer?
 
I am not sure you trade for a guy two years away from being able to come into the league, even if I really like Rubio.

The whole suggestion is based on the reality that most Kings people have tried to ignore, that Evans should be playing at the 2. End game situations like the Cavs game show Tyreke is better being set up rather than Tyreke being the initiator. Beno decided to defer to Evans and it didn't really work, in comparison to games where Beno has not deferred, and bailed out Evans at the end of games.

People keep comparing Evans to guys like James, Roy, Wade, Rose and Magic. Those are all flattering comparisons, but the one constant difference in those comparisons is that Evans is a worse passer than any of those guys. Sure, Evans is a size mismatch at the 1, but he still is a size mismatch versus many 2s. Why sacrifice the team offense just to make teams double a relunctant passer?

You HAVE to ignore the end of the game tonight where LBJ was on Reke. If Westphal had put Donte in instead of Beno, then the Kings get exactly what they want; Donte, a big man, Mo or Parker. Reke passes it up, and Donte takes advantage of the smaller man. If not Donte, have Martin or Garcia (when they're back) and the advantage is still with the Kings.

This is something that I'm sure will become a huge advantage with Reke playing PG in the clutch. It'll give the Kings a huge advantage if the opposing coach wants his best defender, whether he be a PG/SG/SF on Reke.
 
Does anyone remember how mediocre Evans was as a SG for Memphis? That alone should give one pause about moving him there.

Unless we somehow get a stud PG (John Wall?), moving Evans to the 2 is simply not a smart move.

.
 
I am not sure you trade for a guy two years away from being able to come into the league, even if I really like Rubio.

The whole suggestion is based on the reality that most Kings people have tried to ignore, that Evans should be playing at the 2. End game situations like the Cavs game show Tyreke is better being set up rather than Tyreke being the initiator. Beno decided to defer to Evans and it didn't really work, in comparison to games where Beno has not deferred, and bailed out Evans at the end of games.

People keep comparing Evans to guys like James, Roy, Wade, Rose and Magic. Those are all flattering comparisons, but the one constant difference in those comparisons is that Evans is a worse passer than any of those guys. Sure, Evans is a size mismatch at the 1, but he still is a size mismatch versus many 2s. Why sacrifice the team offense just to make teams double a relunctant passer?

Come on now swisshh. Tyreke is a rookie who is also the 2nd YOUNGEST player in the NBA. Tyreke absolutley can be our primary ball handler (refuse to quabble over terms like PG). He has shown the ability to do what James, Roy, Wade, Kobe, Joe Johnson, Rose, Pierce, etc. do. Now, are there going to be games like last night where he forces the action or makes mistakes? Absolutley. It's part of the normal learning curve. Roy, Wade, Kobe, etc. made the same mistakes. Reke's passing and decision making should improve as he matures as a player. The fact that as a 20 year old rookie and we are even able to have these conversation and make these comparisons should tell us all we need to know.
 
Come on now swisshh. Tyreke is a rookie who is also the 2nd YOUNGEST player in the NBA. Tyreke absolutley can be our primary ball handler (refuse to quabble over terms like PG). He has shown the ability to do what James, Roy, Wade, Kobe, Joe Johnson, Rose, Pierce, etc. do. Now, are there going to be games like last night where he forces the action or makes mistakes? Absolutley. It's part of the normal learning curve. Roy, Wade, Kobe, etc. made the same mistakes. Reke's passing and decision making should improve as he matures as a player. The fact that as a 20 year old rookie and we are even able to have these conversation and make these comparisons should tell us all we need to know.

NO! Absolutely not! Evans is the biggest bust in the history of the NBA! Fire Petrie now and cut losses while we can. The 20/5/5 line is a fluke. Any smart person could see that the success of the Kings can be attributed to the Kings true superstar: Sean Hotcakes May.;)
 
Its embarrassing how everyone is so stuck on the Evans being a 1 or 2 topic. Youre all so deep in the woods that you cant see the trees, or something like that. Evans is averaging 20-5-5 as a rookie point guard, no matter how you slice it. There is EVERY reason to believe that he will be great. There is NO REASON to make any of the suggested changes.
 
The whole suggestion is based on the reality that most Kings people have tried to ignore, that Evans should be playing at the 2. End game situations like the Cavs game show Tyreke is better being set up rather than Tyreke being the initiator. Beno decided to defer to Evans and it didn't really work, in comparison to games where Beno has not deferred, and bailed out Evans at the end of games.

In reference to the bolded part I have to say that I disagree completely.
What separates Tyreke from Martin is the fact that Tyreke can have the ball in his hands and make the play while Martin can't.

What separates the superstar from the great players is the fact that you can put the ball in their hands and they can create for themselves or their teammates in the closing minutes even when the defenses stack up to try and stop them.

Tyreke has shown more of that 'superstar' quality in the first 30 games of his career here in Sacramento than any King I can think since they've been in Sacramento.

As has been said numerous times, it's going to take time for Tyreke to hone his decision making. In fact, look at Evans quote after the game:

"It was a good experience," Evans said of facing James for the first time. "He said this is where superstars step up. He did a good job of finding his teammates, and we didn't do a good job of that."

It's absolutely clear that Evans knows that he has to do a better job of pulling the defense in and then kicking out to the open teammates if possible. I do think that at the moment he doesn't quite trust his teammates to make the big shots in the closing seconds of the game, so he tends to want to hold the ball and make the shot himself.
As he gets more experience and gains more confidence in his teammates I know we'll see him make better decisions.

With all that said, I don't think this has anything to do with him playing the PG or the SG spot. I agree completely with those who would have rather had Donte out there instead of Beno. If Donte had been out there then it would have been a piece of cake to take advantage of the mismatch against Mo Williams to get quality shots down the stretch.

The only way I'd ever want to move Tyreke over to the SG spot would be if we got a PG who also created a mis-match at the PG spot. So players like CP3, John Wall, Tony Parker, ect. If we got another 'unstoppable' PG, then all means move Tyreke to the SG spot, otherwise, I prefer the mis-matches created when Tyreke plays the PG.

It's going to be very interesting to see how the Lakers decide to match up against Evans, especially when we play the Donte/Casspi at the SG spot.
 
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