Can Josh Smith be saved?

I think that Rudy sometimes goes into "I have to win this game by myself" mode, but frankly sometimes I think he looks around and thinks the best choice is taking the shot himself, and some of those times I think he's right (not always, but more often than not.). I haven't watched Josh Smith very much, honestly, but I'm very leery of bringing a guy with character questions into the locker room. We are well on the way to clearing those problems out, and I'm all for that.

Josh's locker room problems seem to be very overblown here. Our problem these past awful years hasn't been locker room problems anyway, it's been severe lack of coaching ability and talent. We have a coach who seems to handle player personalities very well which is why I'd be very in favor of this type of low risk/high reward type of trade.
 
Gay certainly went Toine in Toronto. He'd go complete iso eating up the whole shotclock and end up taking a ton of very contested long jumpers.
He might have gone 'Toine, but you can't go Full 'Toine unless you're shooting long threes early in the shot clock. Eating up the whole shot clock is also dumb, but it's an entirely different kind of dumb.

You don't have that much talent to end up being part of trade that has Vasquez and Patterson being the main pieces coming back for you if you didn't have serious problems.
Funny that you feel that way, because Vasquez and Patterson have, literally, been valuable role players every place they've ever played, except Sacramento. And let's not disregard the fact that Toronto has been better since they made that trade. Seems like they knew exactly what they were doing.

This is why I believe Smith can be saved.
Sorry to have to tell you, but everybody can't be saved.

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He would cost us nothing talent wise (McCallum would probably be the best player going out) and he'd all of a sudden be playing with the best talent of his career...
First of All™, McCallum being the best player going out? Yeah, right. McCallum is the tenth-best player on this team. And, second of all, oh, no the hell he wouldn't. Granted, Cousins would be the most talented individual player that Smith has ever played with, but we aren't anywhere remotely close to the most talented team that Smith has ever played on.

... and a coach who has turned a player whos had character issues (Cousins) and a player whos been consistently labeled a blackhole (Gay) into very good building blocks for the future.
Smith has already had one of those; his name is Maurice Cheeks. I'm pretty sure he ran him out of town.
 
He might have gone 'Toine, but you can't go Full 'Toine unless you're shooting long threes early in the shot clock. Eating up the whole shot clock is also dumb, but it's an entirely different kind of dumb.

Funny that you feel that way, because Vasquez and Patterson have, literally, been valuable role players every place they've ever played, except Sacramento. And let's not disregard the fact that Toronto has been better since they made that trade. Seems like they knew exactly what they were doing.

Sorry to have to tell you, but everybody can't be saved.

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First of All™, McCallum being the best player going out? Yeah, right. McCallum is the tenth-best player on this team. And, second of all, oh, no the hell he wouldn't. Granted, Cousins would be the most talented individual player that Smith has ever played with, but we aren't anywhere remotely close to the most talented team that Smith has ever played on.

Smith has already had one of those; his name is Maurice Cheeks. I'm pretty sure he ran him out of town.

I'm sorry but it's laughably ignorant to say it's anymore dumb to shoot a long three early in the shot clock as opposed to mindlessly dribbling
the ball around looking for a shot only to chuck up a contested long jumper. Gay has improved this part of his game despite doing it consistently throughout his career.

Not sure what you're getting at here other than proving my point which is, what I assume, not what you're trying to do. Toronto improved tremendously after getting rid of great talent for a couple decent role players. Rudy clearly didn't fit their system. Was clearly the first option on offense and felt forced into the "takeover" role as opposed to having someone like Cousins he could concede to and have the pressure of the whole team rely on him.

Check out some posts by Raptors fans pre-Rudy trade in 2013. I'm sure they'd have similar things to say.

Again, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Smith's trade value is very, very low right now, more than likely something like McCallum/Williams/2nd rounder. Not sure how the contracts add up, perhaps you'd have to throw in Landry + something else from Detroit. Either way, McCallum is more than likely the most valuable piece going to Detroit in any trade for Smith. Not sure how we aren't "anywhere close" to the most talented team Smith would play for. ATL never fielded some ultra-talented team when he played there. At the very least Smith has never had anything close to two offensive options near the level of Cousins or Gay to concede to.

The coach issue is to be seen. But if Cousins can improve his character as much as he has under Malone, I don't think it's it's such a reach that Smith could.
 
The question should be "does Josh Smith want to be saved" I think anyone can be saved but the real question is does the person want to be. The only way I would want Smith here is if he accepts coming off the bench (which I doubt) and if it's for Landry/Williams nothing else.
 
The question should be "does Josh Smith want to be saved" I think anyone can be saved but the real question is does the person want to be. The only way I would want Smith here is if he accepts coming off the bench (which I doubt) and if it's for Landry/Williams nothing else.

That's the problem I don't see him even entertaing the thought of being a 6th man which would be great for us. Also would he be satisfied with his role here of less than 12 shots. It's the reason our starters gell they know there roles and JT getting only 5 shots makes the other 4 more valuable.

As of today I say no but I switch a lot. Is rather go the raptors/blazers way. They had very good starting squad and by adding to the bench they made the playoffs and the leap to the next level. That's the trade we should be looking for package Nik/DWill for 2 good bench players or a scorer off the bench. Still holding out for that package for Afflalo or mayo/Henson at the deadline. Also it's hard to trade for a guy whose shooting splits are 38/23/47.
 
That's the problem I don't see him even entertaing the thought of being a 6th man which would be great for us. Also would he be satisfied with his role here of less than 12 shots. It's the reason our starters gell they know there roles and JT getting only 5 shots makes the other 4 more valuable.

As of today I say no but I switch a lot. Is rather go the raptors/blazers way. They had very good starting squad and by adding to the bench they made the playoffs and the leap to the next level. That's the trade we should be looking for package Nik/DWill for 2 good bench players or a scorer off the bench. Still holding out for that package for Afflalo or mayo/Henson at the deadline. Also it's hard to trade for a guy whose shooting splits are 38/23/47.
After seeing what Ryan Hollins can do in limited playing time, that long athletic body that knows how to move without the ball and finish as well as block shots, Henson (more talented obviously)would be a terrific back up PF and a guy who could guard stretch 4's.

My problem with guys like Mayo/Smith is that they have quit in them if you know what I mean? Those guys are just to risky cause of that, they will go Marcus Thornton on you and just produce like crap and not be a good teammate either.

If we could get that Brandon Wright athletic type big that would actually help us so much at both ends.
Everyone talks how stretch 4's space the floor but guys like Brandon Wright/Henson space the floor as well when they dive to the rim cause you have to sag back and protect the paint. We have been missing this type of player since we have had Cousins.


If we could get a package for Marshall/Henson that would be crazy
 
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After seeing what Ryan Hollins can do in limited playing time, that long athletic body that knows how to move without the ball and finish as well as block shots, Henson (more talented obviously)would be a terrific back up PF and a guy who could guard stretch 4's.

My problem with guys like Mayo/Smith is that they have quit in them if you know what I mean? Those guys are just to risky cause of that, they will go Marcus Thornton on you and just produce like poopoo and not be a good teammate either.

If we could get that Brandon Wright athletic type big that would actually help us so much at both ends.
Everyone talks how stretch 4's space the floor but guys like Brandon Wright/Henson space the floor as well when they dive to the rim cause you have to sag back and protect the paint. We have been missing this type of player since we have had Cousins.



If we could get a package for Marshall/Henson that would be crazy

Doesn't help this year but I believe Wright is a free agent this offseason.
 
I have always been hesitant on Smith before. Earlier in his career I hoped he would figure it out because he has huge talent and would just be one heck of a force if he added it all up. Somehow though, he has remained pretty much the same and has suffered from the same rep that has followed him to every team - inefficient chucker, and its true. I don't know what is going in Detroit (don't watch them - can you blame me?), but he seems to be a significant part of the problem over there, and as pointed out earlier he has been in the league for a decade. Whatever Josh Smith was supposed to figure out, it should have happened by now. Also, I don't want a guy who has his effort questioned. For a team like ours, so delicate with chemistry and winning, that would be poison. If we make a trade with Detroit, the player coming back better be Andre Drummond. Now that I can go roll with (we should have had him to begin with).
 
Doesn't help this year but I believe Wright is a free agent this offseason.

There are a number of guys who I think can help that will be free agents this summer. Wright, Robin Lopez, Millsap if we're willing and able to spend... just a few off the top of my head. Problem is, of course, waiting a year.
 
I'm going to post this in every thread that mentions Josh Smith from now on. Where do you play Josh Smith in this offense without him remaining horribly inefficient or getting in someone else's way? Saying "well, we fixed Rudy Gay" isn't enough. Rudy loves the right baseline which is also the (only) place where Smith was most efficient last year. But they both can't play there at the same time. So, you put Smith on the perimeter and have him keep chucking? Move Rudy to the midrange and hope he doesn't hero ball?

Read this thread, nicely put together by Bricklayer, and tell me how Josh Smith fits in this offense: http://kingsfans.com/threads/using-...fense-look-like-next-year.57396/#post-1087903
 
Do you realize this is virtually the same exact thing that was said about Rudy before coming here? He was labeled as an inefficient, blackhole chucker. There was literally no way he could play with IT and Cuz based on his past yet managed a ~500 record when they all played together.

Rudy was called a chucker for one year. No one said he was a chucker most of his time in Memphis.

Josh Smith has been a chucker his entire career. He got away with it back when he was super athletic but just look at his shooting percentages now that he doesn't have elite athleticism. He's not even a decent player anymore.
 
Rudy was called a chucker for one year. No one said he was a chucker most of his time in Memphis.

Josh Smith has been a chucker his entire career. He got away with it back when he was super athletic but just look at his shooting percentages now that he doesn't have elite athleticism. He's not even a decent player anymore.

Pretty much. The general sentiment at the time he signed the extension in Memphis was that Rudy Gay was a good player that got overpaid. By last year he had moved into inefficient chucker with an albatross contract territory. But Gay was a key cog on some very good Memphis teams before that. Essentially he was a very good second option who floundered when asked to shoulder the primary scoring load. The Kings saw that he could return to being a very good sidekick who was obtainable precisely because he was overpaid.

Even if Smith reverted to the JSmoove of three or four years ago I don't see him helping the Kings. Good weakside shotblocker (especially for his size) and a good ballhandler and very good passer at the PF spot, but still a high usage player who shoots poorly from outside (and far too often for a guy who shoots poorly), isn't a post scorer, isn't a great rebounder and isn't a very good team defender who also can't check low post scorers one on one. I don't see what area of the team he upgrades.
 
Before this season, I was good with dealing for him if we dealt JT and DWill and another piece and got him and an asset because of his large contract .....figured that Detroit had to give us so,etching to take that bad contract because its a really bad contract. Now, with JT playing his best defense of his career, I wouldn't do the deal. Wouldn't trade Landry and DWill unless Detroit gives us a unprotected 1st rounder or other similar asset. Augustin is not enough of an asset. That's how bad the Smoov contract, in comparison to his production, is....a bad deal.

If Smoov was making DWill money....maybe you take a shot at trying to resurrect his career but its just not worth the risk as he's on a downward trend. I'd rather us keep the cap room and overpay a FA next year. To steal a RFA, you have to overpay someone and I'd rather take a shot at someone in the offseason.
 
I'm sorry but it's laughably ignorant to say it's anymore dumb to shoot a long three early in the shot clock as opposed to mindlessly dribbling
the ball around looking for a shot only to chuck up a contested long jumper. Gay has improved this part of his game despite doing it consistently throughout his career.
No it isn't. It's simple math: if you brick a long jumper with nineteen seconds left on the shot clock, the other team can run it back on you in transition three times as often as if you brick a long jumper with three seconds left on the shot clock. They're both reckless and dumb, but one of them is more reckless and dumb than the other one, by a significant margin. And, here's a protip for you, the dumber one is not Rudy Gay.

Not sure what you're getting at here other than proving my point...
I find that unsurprising, at this stage. You said that a player like Gay doesn't get traded for players like Vasquez and Patterson, unless he has serious problems, with the clear subtext being that Vasquez and Patterson are not good players. My point was that Vasquez and Patterson are good players, and that your comment was therefore specious. This wasn't like when Phoenix traded Shaq for Sasha Pavlovic, Ben Wallace (whom they immediately waived) and a second-round pick; Toronto traded value, and got value back.

And then, you tried to walk it back by rewording what I'd already said: that Toronto got better after Gay was gone. Yes, I know that; I was the one who pointed that out, not you. You're the one who acted like you think that Toronto got pennies on the dollar.


Was clearly the first option on offense and felt forced into the "takeover" role as opposed to having someone like Cousins he could concede to and have the pressure of the whole team rely on him.
Which is a point against acquiring Josh Smith. I would agree that Gay felt "forced" into the 'takeover' role in Toronto. That doesn't apply to Smith: it didn't apply here in Atlanta, and it doesn't apply in Detroit. Smith doesn't feel "forced" into the takeover role; he knows that he's not supposed to be in that role. He takes it upon himself to give himself that role. Rudy Gay is a Robin who was forced to be Batman. And, now that he gets to be Robin again, he is tons more effective. Not only is Josh Smith not a Robin who has been forced to be Batman, he's actually more like a Booster Gold who thinks he's Superman.

Check out some posts by Raptors fans pre-Rudy trade in 2013. I'm sure they'd have similar things to say.
Except that Gay being efficient in Sacramento doesn't mean that the Raptors fans were wrong. And, more to the point, it doesn't have much to do with Josh Smith. As has already been pointed out to you, Gay was an inefficient chucker for a year; Josh Smith has been an inefficient chucker forever.

Again, I'm not sure what you're getting at.
And, again, I'm not surprised. My point here is that you are grossly overrating Ray McCallum. I am aware that Josh Smith's trade value is not very high, but you said that you think that we could get Smith in a trade where McCallum is the best player going out, which is absurd on the face of it. Ray McCallum is, like, the tenth-best player on the Sacramento Kings. There's no way in the world that we could acquire Smith in a trade where we gave up no player better than him.

Not sure how we aren't "anywhere close" to the most talented team Smith would play for. ATL never fielded some ultra-talented team when he played there.
The 2009-10 or 2010-11 Hawks would win a Best-of-Seven against this team 4-2. You're insane if you think otherwise.


The coach issue is to be seen. But if Cousins can improve his character as much as he has under Malone, I don't think it's it's such a reach that Smith could.
It isn't "to be seen," it has been seen. It didn't work.

Maybe the third time will be the charm. I don't believe it but, whatever. Let some other team be his third chance.
 
Which is a point against acquiring Josh Smith. I would agree that Gay felt "forced" into the 'takeover' role in Toronto. That doesn't apply to Smith: it didn't apply here in Atlanta, and it doesn't apply in Detroit. Smith doesn't feel "forced" into the takeover role; he knows that he's not supposed to be in that role. He takes it upon himself to give himself that role. Rudy Gay is a Robin who was forced to be Batman. And, now that he gets to be Robin again, he is tons more effective. Not only is Josh Smith not a Robin who has been forced to be Batman, he's actually more like a Booster Gold who thinks he's Superman.
Justice League
 
I really dont get the obsession with people wanting Smith on this team lol.. He's a tweener that chucks. We need someone thats going to defer and just play D, rebound and not demand a ton of shots.
 
at this point I don't think Smith can be saved from himself...it's mental with Smith, he's been in the league long enough to figure it out...some talent just goes to waste it's the nature of the beast.
 
Gay certainly went Toine in Toronto. He'd go complete iso eating up the whole shotclock and end up taking a ton of very contested long jumpers. You don't have that much talent to end up being part of trade that has Vasquez and Patterson being the main pieces coming back for you if you didn't have serious problems. He has changed a LOT in Sacramento and has shown passing ability no one in Toronto and even Memphis knew existed which has resulted in much better shot selection. The fact he has (typically) Cousins playing with him also opens up a lot.

This is why I believe Smith can be saved. Gay is a completely different player than he's been throughout his career and is fully maximizing his talent. It came at a very, very low cost. The same would apply to Smith. He would cost us nothing talent wise (McCallum would probably be the best player going out) and he'd all of a sudden be playing with the best talent of his career and a coach who has turned a player whos had character issues (Cousins) and a player whos been consistently labeled a blackhole (Gay) into very good building blocks for the future. I feel as if our coaching staff is very good at leveling out players personalities and bad tendencies.

Now if we can get a great bench player for something similar to Smith's cost, I'd be very happy with that. But I think Smith right now is the best bargain we could get given Malone's ability with player personality. But there is certainly no way we can move forward with this current team and think anything will come of it. We got Cousins, Gay, Collison, and Ben's improvement. Stauskas has been awful and there's nothing else beyond that. For a small market team like us, risks need to be taken to reap benefits (see Gay, Rudy playing with two players with extraordinarily high usage rates).

You comparison of Smith to Gay just isn't a good one. Smith has basically been prone to chucking up threes for his entire career, which always amazed me since he's a terrible three point shooter. It's as though after 10 years in the NBA, he's finally drank from the magic Grail of shooting and now he can shoot. Rudy on the other hand, was a pretty efficient player when with Memphis. His first six years there, not counting the split year he left, he averaged 45.5% overall from the floor, attempting 15.1 shots a game and 2.9 three point attempts a game. His three point percentage was 35%. In Toronto he attempted 17.2 shots a game and only shot 40.6% overall from the floor. while attempting 3.6 three point shots a game. The difference was that he was the number one option at Toronto, where at Memphis he was the 2nd or 3rd option. When he came to the Kings, he reverted back to his Memphis form, and ended up being even more efficient shooting around 47% overall.

Point is, Rudy had one bad year of being a chucker where Smith has done it his entire career. And to be honest, if you watched him play at Toronto, Gay wasn't really a chucker, he just forced more shots than he did at Memphis or with the Kiings. Simply put, he took better shots with Memphis and the Kings, and Gay is a good shooter when he takes good shots. Smith on the other hand, is a terrible outside shooter even when he's open. When he came into the league, you could live with it because he was a good rebounder, and a good defender. He still rebounds decently, but his defense has regressed. I agree that if he was 25 years old, I'd be happy to take a gamble on him, but I'm not sure he's a good risk now
 
I think he could be saved, but not by the Kings. The Pistons are terrible right now. I don't think Smith is the worst thing on that team, but they should be having a fire sale. I'll take Brandon Jennings.
 
I think he could be saved, but not by the Kings. The Pistons are terrible right now. I don't think Smith is the worst thing on that team, but they should be having a fire sale. I'll take Brandon Jennings.
Keep Jennings away! Same attitude as IT

I will take Drummond
 
You won't get Drummond.
Smith is shooting 1.4 3pointers per game. A good percentage of these long range shots are very late in the shotclock, cause Detroit screws up their plays time and time again. Detroit has poor floor spacing and the opponent simply packs the paint. Therefore a good chunk of shots at the rim are highly contested. In a different environment Smith's percentages may rise again to an acceptable level of 45%.
More often than not Smith's is passing open shots lately, cause he is aware of his poor percentages.
Maybe take a look beyond scoring - 5.1 APG, 1.2 SPG, 1.7 BPG, 7.4 RPG while playing SF for some minutes.
Smith is easily far more talented than every PF on the Kings roster. There is no doubt that Smith would help the Kings to move the ball and play help defense. The major question would be, if a small and mobile PF like Smith can battle Randloph or Griffin in the low post.
I don't know about any locker room issues with Smith. The only incident lately were some stupid tweets to Faried.
For me Smith could very well take the Rudy Gay route, if he is traded to the right franchise.
 
You won't get Drummond.
Smith is shooting 1.4 3pointers per game. A good percentage of these long range shots are very late in the shotclock, cause Detroit screws up their plays time and time again. Detroit has poor floor spacing and the opponent simply packs the paint. Therefore a good chunk of shots at the rim are highly contested. In a different environment Smith's percentages may rise again to an acceptable level of 45%.
More often than not Smith's is passing open shots lately, cause he is aware of his poor percentages.
Maybe take a look beyond scoring - 5.1 APG, 1.2 SPG, 1.7 BPG, 7.4 RPG while playing SF for some minutes.
Smith is easily far more talented than every PF on the Kings roster. There is no doubt that Smith would help the Kings to move the ball and play help defense. The major question would be, if a small and mobile PF like Smith can battle Randloph or Griffin in the low post.
I don't know about any locker room issues with Smith. The only incident lately were some stupid tweets to Faried.
For me Smith could very well take the Rudy Gay route, if he is traded to the right franchise.

That's why I want to keep JT in the trade but post defense won't be a problem for him vs griffin.
 
Legendary voice of WWF describes Smith bricking a 3 to win a game against OKC


"Does he have no conscience? Does he have no heart, Do you have no soul?"
So what were his options in this situation? 4.1 to go - pass it to Drummond on the 3pt Line in order to try a potential penetration to tie the game? Or wait for one of the three players standing around underneath the basket to get open?
How is it possible, that Smith ends up with the ball on the 3point line late in the game? That's the real question. Jennings didn't call a timeout, he blew by the D and had a clear path to the basket for the layup but passed it up and kicks it out to Smith who was guarded by Adams and is a poor shooter. Who is to blame in this case?

BTW. Smith recorded 2 great assists for open 3 pointers for Singler and Butler, a crucial defensive play on Durant, a great closeout causing a backcourt violation by Durant and a jumpball for a KCP-3 to get the Pistons back in the game. But everyone is focusing on the negative and thats Smith missing the potential game winner and a turnover late in the game.
Problem in Detroit is, that they put Smith on the 3point line with a live dribble to create a shot or collapse the defense. The fact that he can do this doesn't mean he is actually good at it.
And Jennings is just horrible in the half court.
 
A good percentage of these long range shots are very late in the shotclock, cause Detroit screws up their plays time and time again. Detroit has poor floor spacing and the opponent simply packs the paint. Therefore a good chunk of shots at the rim are highly contested. In a different environment Smith's percentages may rise again to an acceptable level of 45%.
.

The Kings also have issues spacing the floor, and with opponents packing the paint on defense. Smith won't help that. So why would we expect him to do any better here? Because Gay did? Well, he and Gay can't occupy the same place at the same time, can they?
 
So what were his options in this situation? 4.1 to go - pass it to Drummond on the 3pt Line in order to try a potential penetration to tie the game? Or wait for one of the three players standing around underneath the basket to get open?
How is it possible, that Smith ends up with the ball on the 3point line late in the game? That's the real question. Jennings didn't call a timeout, he blew by the D and had a clear path to the basket for the layup but passed it up and kicks it out to Smith who was guarded by Adams and is a poor shooter. Who is to blame in this case?

BTW. Smith recorded 2 great assists for open 3 pointers for Singler and Butler, a crucial defensive play on Durant, a great closeout causing a backcourt violation by Durant and a jumpball for a KCP-3 to get the Pistons back in the game. But everyone is focusing on the negative and thats Smith missing the potential game winner and a turnover late in the game.
Problem in Detroit is, that they put Smith on the 3point line with a live dribble to create a shot or collapse the defense. The fact that he can do this doesn't mean he is actually good at it.
And Jennings is just horrible in the half court.

It's sort of like a boxing bout. You can score a ton of points and win round after round, but if you get knocked out in the 12 round, none of the other stuff matters. Smith has the mentality, that this time, despite all the other times I missed, its going in. And of course it doesn't.
 
It's sort of like a boxing bout. You can scoroa ton of points and win round after round, but if you get knocked out in the 12 round, none of the other stuff matters. Smith has the mentality, that this time, despite all the other times I missed, its going in. And of course it doesn't.
When it's 4 second to go with the game on the line and the PG sets up a 25% 3point shooter on the 3point line, instead of taking a wide open layup for the tie the PG is the one to blame and not the PF who has basically no options besides shooting the ball.
 
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