C/PF off season discussion

[OPrime]

we should keep WCS. there will be constant complaining in the game threads as our new "saviour" center inevitably fails to do everything: block shots, get all the rebounds, defend the post, defend the paint from drivers, defend the PNR, switch on guards/wings, defend the 3 point line, score on more than 56% of his shots, stretch the floor, show the consistency that everyone imagines he will show, etc....

It’s not the worst thing in the world if that’s how it plays out but uninspiring with the strength of the free agent class. Our MO has been for so long the doormat of the league that can only attract guys on their last leg of their career that don’t care about winning that we have to overpay for them to underperform. I think that perception is changing and we might have options for once.

Also I would hope WCS doesn’t have an attitude if he came back, I know a lot of his comments about being underutilized were directed at Joeger but I read he’s aware of the fans being critical of his inconstant effort and performance and is sensitive to it. Maybe it’s not the case but I just feel like he’s in need of a fresh start

 

[ESP47]

Yes I've been on the Vonleh train all year. He's better at C, still just 23 years old, plays really good defense, he's an excellent rebounder, added a 3-ball the past 2 years and he can flex at the 4 or 5 if needed. Can have some really creative big man LU's with Bagley/Giles/Bjelica/Vonleh that would make us difficult to match-up with.

Statistically too, just saw a nice boost in everything in addition to him being a very good rebounder: Think he's definitely a guy too where he gets better when not playing on a completely crap team and can stay in his defined role.

If you already have Giles playing at least 15-20min at C and Bagley for at least 10-20min in small ball lineups (as his offensive skillset is best utilized as C with no one clogging the lane), thats 25-40min worth of Center play
--> Do not overspend at Center

If players like Deandre Jordan, Valanciunas, Gasol cost close to 20mil and players like McGee, Brook&Robin Lopez, Dedmond, Thomas Bryant, Ed Davis, Salah Mejri cost under 5mil (some might be over 5mil but some will be under)
-->Do not overspend at Center

I also would like to sign players that are effective playoff players. A lot of traditional centers struggle some in the playoffs when the opposing team really gameplans against them. By going small and forcing the center to defend behind the 3 point line while putting him constantly in screen actions, it gets harder for them. The value of those traditional Centers could drop a bit in the playoffs. Vucevic hasnt impressed this year, Cavs took advantage of Valanciunas every year and even Gobert as a best rim protector in the league had tough time against a team like Warriors. I really wouldnt like to pay huge money for a guy whose value decreases in the playoffs. Financially its smarter to get a good cheap option that you can use against those best big men if you need to.

Also we currently have only one decent sized playoff level 3&D wing. The value of those guys increases in the playoffs. Ideally you would have multiple players on the floor that a)spread the floor, b)has size and ability to defend multiple positions and handle switching and c)attack close outs from the perimeter. We currently have one that can operate on a level that is needed in the playoffs. When you can fix the hole at C very cheaply, you should really devote your recources to get these versatile 3&D wings

Where do you guys think the rim protection is going to come from? I clearly remember the Clippers and other teams doing layup drills on us for long stretches at a time no matter who was out there at center other than maybe Koufos. I just feel like the Kings need a guy who can get a handful of stops a game at the rim. They don't have to be of the spectacular block variety. Just get stops one way or another. Add some kind of resistance. The layup might be available but at least cause the opponent to have to do a reverse with english on it to make it.

I don't mind overspending as long as it doesn't drag on long enough to cause the Kings to not be able to afford their core players. If you have to pay a ton of money for a couple years, I'm ok with that. It's not like the Kings are going to be able to pick up Deandre Jordan, Patrick Beverly and another good 3&D wing. At best they might be able to get one above average player and then mix in some "well we'll see what happens" type players. Remember, this is Sacramento after all.

 

[burekijogurt]

It’s not the worst thing in the world if that’s how it plays out but uninspiring with the strength of the free agent class. Our MO has been for so long the doormat of the league that can only attract guys on their last leg of their career that don’t care about winning that we have to overpay for them to underperform. I think that perception is changing and we might have options for once.

Also I would hope WCS doesn’t have an attitude if he came back, I know a lot of his comments about being underutilized were directed at Joeger but I read he’s aware of the fans being critical of his inconstant effort and performance and is sensitive to it. Maybe it’s not the case but I just feel like he’s in need of a fresh start

if our improved rep helps us land a better C, i'm all for it. Willie is a bit volatile with his emotions, took Shump's trade hard, but he seems like someone who bought into the team (ball club) concept compared to lets say Bagley who seems to me more individual centered. But we will see. As you say, it would not be good if we ended up with Willie AND he had an attitude

 

[The_Jamal]

Where do you guys think the rim protection is going to come from? I clearly remember the Clippers and other teams doing layup drills on us for long stretches at a time no matter who was out there at center other than maybe Koufos. I just feel like the Kings need a guy who can get a handful of stops a game at the rim. They don't have to be of the spectacular block variety. Just get stops one way or another. Add some kind of resistance. The layup might be available but at least cause the opponent to have to do a reverse with english on it to make it.

I don't mind overspending as long as it doesn't drag on long enough to cause the Kings to not be able to afford their core players. If you have to pay a ton of money for a couple years, I'm ok with that. It's not like the Kings are going to be able to pick up Deandre Jordan, Patrick Beverly and another good 3&D wing. At best they might be able to get one above average player and then mix in some "well we'll see what happens" type players. Remember, this is Sacramento after all.

I'm fully on board investing in Giles and Bagley next season and letting the chips fall where they may. I have enough confidence in what they showed in their development this season and also what they showed together that they can get the job done. Think there's much better areas we can invest our cap this off-season to make the team better overall. You can get someone like Javale, Ed Davis, Vonleh, Robin Lopez to fill that role without investing a huge chunk of cash into DeAndre Jordan or Vuc.

And like you said, more than likely we're only going to get maybe 1 above-average player to join up. Lets not use that player on a position where 2 of our franchise building blocks are going to be set up for the next 10 years.

 

[steelevt]

I'm fully on board investing in Giles and Bagley next season and letting the chips fall where they may. I have enough confidence in what they showed in their development this season and also what they showed together that they can get the job done. Think there's much better areas we can invest our cap this off-season to make the team better overall. You can get someone like Javale, Ed Davis, Vonleh, Robin Lopez to fill that role without investing a huge chunk of cash into DeAndre Jordan or Vuc.

And like you said, more than likely we're only going to get maybe 1 above-average player to join up. Lets not use that player on a position where 2 of our franchise building blocks are going to be set up for the next 10 years.

Where else would we use the money? Assuming Barnes opts in, we are set at pg and sg and barnes is highly paid at sf. Bagley set at pf. The only position of need to spend on is at C. We need a back up pg but we shouldn't spend big money there. I know usually with a team that didn't make the playoffs, every position can be improved, but with our case we are just young. I totally agree giles and bags are out future but until they can consistently hold their own, spending big money on a big is the way to go. I'd personally prefer to spend on a young all star type big but if we strike out spend less on guys you mentioned rather than spend big on deandre Jordan though.

 

[206Fan]

Thomas Bryant anyone??? I had NO clue he was a free agent. Luke didn't play nearly enough, but he's a very talented young center. Only 21 yearsold

Magic and Pelinka suck. They waived Thomas Bryant lol

 

[jiimbob]

Thomas Bryant anyone??? I had NO clue he was a free agent. Luke didn't play nearly enough, but he's a very talented young center. Only 21 yearsold

Magic and Pelinka suck. They waived Thomas Bryant lol

I'm intrigued, love his age and massive wingspan.. I also liked Ed Davis coming out of college, granted I have not followed him the last couple years. Happy to hear fit and opinions on these two. I cant imagine either would break the bank.
I also know hes been brought up on these boards and is undersized for a center, but Jordan Bell was so on my list two years ago. I crapped myself when he was still on board and Mason's name was called. Thought, wow the rich just got richer and we had already picked a PG in Fox.

 

[Gguod]

Where do you guys think the rim protection is going to come from? I clearly remember the Clippers and other teams doing layup drills on us for long stretches at a time no matter who was out there at center other than maybe Koufos. I just feel like the Kings need a guy who can get a handful of stops a game at the rim. They don't have to be of the spectacular block variety. Just get stops one way or another. Add some kind of resistance. The layup might be available but at least cause the opponent to have to do a reverse with english on it to make it.

I don't mind overspending as long as it doesn't drag on long enough to cause the Kings to not be able to afford their core players. If you have to pay a ton of money for a couple years, I'm ok with that. It's not like the Kings are going to be able to pick up Deandre Jordan, Patrick Beverly and another good 3&D wing. At best they might be able to get one above average player and then mix in some "well we'll see what happens" type players. Remember, this is Sacramento after all.

Having a pure rim protector and dunker like Deandre Jordan is problematic for fully utilizing Bagley. Since we used a very high draft asset on him, I would suggest that we build around what type of player he is.

The defense should be better with adding a legitimate sized 3&D wing, Bagley improving (he had the worst DRPM at his position) and from whoever we cheaply add at C. I think for long and short term the team is better especially in the playoffs if you use less recources at C and instead use that money you saved for other positions.

 

[kingsboi]

Thomas Bryant anyone??? I had NO clue he was a free agent. Luke didn't play nearly enough, but he's a very talented young center. Only 21 yearsold

Magic and Pelinka suck. They waived Thomas Bryant lol

Bryant is one of those low key players who has improved significantly from last season and this. He also is working on his three point shot, he plays with endless energy and will always hustle. He would be a great addition to this team.

 

[SacTownKid]

If you already have Giles playing at least 15-20min at C and Bagley for at least 10-20min in small ball lineups (as his offensive skillset is best utilized as C with no one clogging the lane), thats 25-40min worth of Center play
--> Do not overspend at Center

If players like Deandre Jordan, Valanciunas, Gasol cost close to 20mil and players like McGee, Brook&Robin Lopez, Dedmond, Thomas Bryant, Ed Davis, Salah Mejri cost under 5mil (some might be over 5mil but some will be under)
-->Do not overspend at Center

I also would like to sign players that are effective playoff players. A lot of traditional centers struggle some in the playoffs when the opposing team really gameplans against them. By going small and forcing the center to defend behind the 3 point line while putting him constantly in screen actions, it gets harder for them. The value of those traditional Centers could drop a bit in the playoffs. Vucevic hasnt impressed this year, Cavs took advantage of Valanciunas every year and even Gobert as a best rim protector in the league had tough time against a team like Warriors. I really wouldnt like to pay huge money for a guy whose value decreases in the playoffs. Financially its smarter to get a good cheap option that you can use against those best big men if you need to.

Also we currently have only one decent sized playoff level 3&D wing. The value of those guys increases in the playoffs. Ideally you would have multiple players on the floor that a)spread the floor, b)has size and ability to defend multiple positions and handle switching and c)attack close outs from the perimeter. We currently have one that can operate on a level that is needed in the playoffs. When you can fix the hole at C very cheaply, you should really devote your recources to get these versatile 3&D wings

The Kings can realistically overspend at center on a shorter term and still be fine. Overspending on a mostly offensively oriented C might be unwise since the Kings offense is already well accounted for and honestly probably needs to be situated even more towards 2-3 players as is. Vucevic without the numbers is a hard sell at that price, but Jordan, JV, and Gasol all bring major intangibles. I'm still all in on going more towards an unheralded steal from the Warriors system in Jordan Bell. After hiring Luke Walton I think it makes sense going after more players that are familiar with the gameplan.

 

[OPrime]

I’m definitely intrigued by Thomas Bryant. I didn’t watch many wizards games but it looks like a high intangible, high energy young big man that played well on both sides of the court.

I know he played under Walton for a year and in an exit interview with the lakers mentioned Corey Brewer as a veteran mentor that was a positive influence on him and said the same thing about Yogi Ferrell during his time at Indiana. Not sure where I’d put him on my list of targets I’d like to see the kings go after but it’s great how many options there are

 

[jiimbob]

I’m definitely intrigued by Thomas Bryant. I didn’t watch many wizards games but it looks like a high intangible, high energy young big man that played well on both sides of the court.

I know he played under Walton for a year and in an exit interview with the lakers mentioned Corey Brewer as a veteran mentor that was a positive influence on him and said the same thing about Yogi Ferrell during his time at Indiana. Not sure where I’d put him on my list of targets I’d like to see the kings go after but it’s great how many options there are

Yeah its interesting that Walton coached both Bryant and Brewer in 2017/18. I read that Brewer really hopes to be retained by the Kings and from what I see he was a good veteran presence. I would think one of our second rounders would target a SF though probably a long shot at getting significant playing time.
Anyways if Bryant is a good fit at least he'd be on Waltons radar and resigning Brewer should be a good selling point.

 

[ESP47]

I'm fully on board investing in Giles and Bagley next season and letting the chips fall where they may. I have enough confidence in what they showed in their development this season and also what they showed together that they can get the job done. Think there's much better areas we can invest our cap this off-season to make the team better overall. You can get someone like Javale, Ed Davis, Vonleh, Robin Lopez to fill that role without investing a huge chunk of cash into DeAndre Jordan or Vuc.

And like you said, more than likely we're only going to get maybe 1 above-average player to join up. Lets not use that player on a position where 2 of our franchise building blocks are going to be set up for the next 10 years.

I just think it's going to kind of be a take what you can get kind of offseason for the Kings. They improved a ton which should make this place slightly more attractive to free agents but if you have a high profile guy who wants to play here and fills a need, I think you have to take him because if you wait you mind end up with some bottom of the barrel free agents that we're all used to seeing.

Thomas Bryant anyone??? I had NO clue he was a free agent. Luke didn't play nearly enough, but he's a very talented young center. Only 21 yearsold

Magic and Pelinka suck. They waived Thomas Bryant lol

I'm all on board with this idea. His stats show all the signs of a player ready to break out. Extremely efficient, emerging 3 point shot, real good FT%, rebounds and blocks some shots. Not a great defender yet but if he comes cheap I'd pick him up any day of the week.

Having a pure rim protector and dunker like Deandre Jordan is problematic for fully utilizing Bagley. Since we used a very high draft asset on him, I would suggest that we build around what type of player he is.

The defense should be better with adding a legitimate sized 3&D wing, Bagley improving (he had the worst DRPM at his position) and from whoever we cheaply add at C. I think for long and short term the team is better especially in the playoffs if you use less recources at C and instead use that money you saved for other positions.

What do you think the Kings should do with the C position? Lets say Giles is good next year but not good enough to help the team make the playoffs. Who would you fit in next to Bagley to get them over the hump? It sounds like a unicorn is needed if a player like Jordan won't work next to Bagley. I don't know of many good defending stretch 5's out there that are available.

I'm always down for legit 3&D wings but if you add a top wing, do you now play Barnes at the 3, new wing at the 4 and Bagley at the 5? I don't see that working out unless Bagley really improves his defense a ton.

 

[Sac.1989]

We need to win now and this is as important as the growth of giles and bagley.

The trade deadline acquisitions and brewer highlighed that this was always the vision. We need a serviceable big to take the pressure off giles and bagley for now.

Bagley will most likely start next season but he is not a C as of now and Giles in any case is being touted as our next C. Someone like Jordan, Dedmon, Lopez would be ideal. The latter two adding the stretch big element so key to our offense.

 

[Gguod]

What do you think the Kings should do with the C position? Lets say Giles is good next year but not good enough to help the team make the playoffs. Who would you fit in next to Bagley to get them over the hump? It sounds like a unicorn is needed if a player like Jordan won't work next to Bagley. I don't know of many good defending stretch 5's out there that are available.

First of all I would pencil Giles in for at least 10-20mpg, even more if he shows developement. Then I would put Bagley playing C at least 10-20 mpg. At C his offensive skillset is best utilized so I need him to play some minutes there. That gives me 20-40min worth of Center play. To me that indicates that I dont need a 20mil/year guy to fill the rest of that.

I would see how the market plays out and get that guy who I can sign cheaply. Wether its Thomas Bryant, McGee, Dedmond, one of the Lopez bros or someone else who can produce when we need more size at C, we'll see how it plays out but at least one of those should be a chep option.

I'm always down for legit 3&D wings but if you add a top wing, do you now play Barnes at the 3, new wing at the 4 and Bagley at the 5? I don't see that working out unless Bagley really improves his defense a ton.

Depends on who we can get. The point is that I would target multiple versatile wings that can do multiple things like stretch the floor, switch, attack close outs ect. Guys like Middleton, Tobias Harris, Trevor Ariza, Bojan Bogdanovic, Nikola Mirotic, Thaddeus Young, Marcus Morris ect would be on my radar. Then it depends on the price on who we should sign but getting one or two of those guys would be my priority number one and only after that I would look at the center market

 

[Ozymandias]

what about trading for Isaiah Hartenstein to play backup 5????

(another lefty btw)

 

[Ozymandias]

Where do you guys think the rim protection is going to come from? I clearly remember the Clippers and other teams doing layup drills on us for long stretches at a time no matter who was out there at center other than maybe Koufos. I just feel like the Kings need a guy who can get a handful of stops a game at the rim. They don't have to be of the spectacular block variety. Just get stops one way or another. Add some kind of resistance. The layup might be available but at least cause the opponent to have to do a reverse with english on it to make it.

I don't mind overspending as long as it doesn't drag on long enough to cause the Kings to not be able to afford their core players. If you have to pay a ton of money for a couple years, I'm ok with that. It's not like the Kings are going to be able to pick up Deandre Jordan, Patrick Beverly and another good 3&D wing. At best they might be able to get one above average player and then mix in some "well we'll see what happens" type players. Remember, this is Sacramento after all.

Did you see Vonleh block the heck out of Giannis this year? lemme show u... He would be perfect contrast to our skinny bigs here... Vonleh is a tank. 7'4" wingspan..

He is max effort guy and work ethic on par with Buddy too.. he is insane workethic no doubt about it.

 

[steelevt]

Did you see Vonleh block the heck out of Giannis this year? lemme show u... He would be perfect contrast to our skinny bigs here... Vonleh is a tank. 7'4" wingspan..

He is max effort guy and work ethic on par with Buddy too.. he is insane workethic no doubt about it.

I would be for him in our bigs rotation if Bagley or giles bulked up or become more dependable at the 5. Love seeing that effort

 

[Ozymandias]

I would be for him in our bigs rotation if Bagley or giles bulked up or become more dependable at the 5. Love seeing that effort

Vonleh plays with way more functional strength than those 2. He is also very athletic registered at 37½" vert at the combine. Moves well laterally ---- WAY better than Swanigan.

One thing i'm absolutely certain of is Grant and Doug would love Vonleh. He's got some nifty dribble moves and ability to drive too.

 

[jiimbob]

what about trading for Isaiah Hartenstein to play backup 5????

(another lefty btw)

Impressive clips. He looks solid, quick for his size, can pass and hit the 3. Happy to trade one "stein" for another. Hes only 20, and father was a player/coach so again intrigued.

 

[kingsfan1984]

Vonley and Jordan, Whiteside or McGee would be a nice rotation.

 

[Cojc]

Go for the home run pick even if you put yourself over the salary cap. You need to pay to run with the big dogs in this league.

We all watch many nba games and see many good centers that abused us.
After signing Barnes it shows we are willing to pony up bucks so Vlade don’t go cheap on me now.

 

[kingsfan1984]

The biggest issue i see with Vuc is he is not a good defender. We need a defensive anchor in the worst way at the 5.

What is more valuable?
1) floor spacing from our 5
2) rim/paint protection

 

[burekijogurt]

The biggest issue i see with Vuc is he is not a good defender. We need a defensive anchor in the worst way at the 5.

What is more valuable?
1) floor spacing from our 5
2) rim/paint protection

we need both if we are going to start Bagley. that the crux of the issue.

 

[whozit]

Go for the home run pick even if you put yourself over the salary cap. You need to pay to run with the big dogs in this league.

We all watch many nba games and see many good centers that abused us.
After signing Barnes it shows we are willing to pony up bucks so Vlade don’t go cheap on me now.

Trading for Barnes doesn't indicate one way or the other on willingness to spend. That money was spent irregardless if it went to one player or spread over the team, they had to reach the floor. When they get near tax we'll have a better idea.

 

[SacTownKid]

Trading for Barnes doesn't indicate one way or the other on willingness to spend. That money was spent irregardless if it went to one player or spread over the team, they had to reach the floor. When they get near tax we'll have a better idea.

But throwing around max offers like candy in previous offseasons does. The good news for Sacramento is that Vlade has some time to work with before getting over that comfortable cap level becomes an issue. If they are less aggressive this summer after being fairly aggressive the last two I'll be a little less confident in Viveks willingness to spend big because this is likely their last shot at not having to subtract in order to add.

 

[upinsmoke]

Defending the perimeter is more important than defending the paint imo. Playing passing lanes and contesting the 3 should be our strategy going forward. Start Bagley and Giles the future is now.

 

[ESP47]

Defending the perimeter is more important than defending the paint imo. Playing passing lanes and contesting the 3 should be our strategy going forward. Start Bagley and Giles the future is now.

Then WCS is the best option because even point guards can rarely take him off the dribble on the perimeter.

 

[upinsmoke]

Then WCS is the best option because even point guards can rarely take him off the dribble on the perimeter.

I'm so out on that guy.

 

[ockingsfan]

I still think that Brook Lopez will be the most likely target and the player we have the best chance of signing this summer.

He fits exactly what the Kings need. A veteran stretch 5 who defends the paint. Bagley can gobble up the extra rebounds. He has ties to coach Walton and is a California kid and wanted to stay in LA last summer.

Provided that Milwaukee doesn’t make it to the NBA finals, I don’t see why we won’t be able to get him. Milwaukee has an unprecedented 4 free agents from their starting lineup this summer. It will be difficult for them to sign all 4 to a big money contract. Lopez is the oldest vet and they only paid him 3 million this year. They still need to pay Middleton, Brogdon and they just paid Bledsoe. If they can’t afford to re-sign all 4 free agent starters, they may feel they can get a younger and cheaper player at center.

If we give him a big enough offer, something like the 3 year deal we gave George Hill, i.e. 3 years at 16-18 million per year and the 3rd year as a team option, it would be hard for Milwaukee to match. Brook is unrestricted anyways, so he can just chose to leave, if he wanted to get back to California.

The 2 years guaranteed, gives time for Giles to grow into the center position. Also, Brook’s contract comes off the books, once it’s time to pay Fox and Giles.