C/PF off season discussion
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ParniValjak
All-Star
At this stage of the development of this team we are at a point where we are looking for quality and not for cheaper options. Our best players are still on rookie deals and will need extending. You make a big signing while these guys are under their rookie deals. It's what we should have done with Boogie but we had different approach tho things back then.
Javale is not a starter. Jonas is but he is more of a problematic fit than DJ both offensively and defensively. Offensively because he is strictly a set the pick and roll to the basket type player who gets his points that way or off teh scraps, oops and rim running. Jonas is a low post presence which crowds the paint for bagley.
This is precisely my thinking. Grant is a known mouth piece for the team. He is always used as a someone who floats the idea out there before it happens. He was raving on about Luke Walton before he got signed. Now he has moved on to DJ which tells me the front office see him as a realistic option for a couple of season on a big money deal while Giles and Bagley develop into a bona fide starting duo. DJ wouldn't be my first choice but I can certainly see the thinking behind it. DJ is a former all-star who is still able to rebound at an elite level and defend the paint. I think that is pretty much what the team will be looking for in FA.
burekijogurt
Starter
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
There is one particular area were Jordan would be the best fit of all, and that's as a screener. It's known around the league that DJ is the best big man screener in the NBA. The Kings guards would instantly get better looks just like they did with Kosta out there setting picks for them. I'm not sure he's the best fit but he should be on the radar if they are looking at bigs. You just have to hope no other team is serious about him.
burekijogurt
Starter
he is a very good screener. but i think he does not really play defence. maybe he did at some point but does not seem to be that good at it now..
Yeah he's pretty much pure name value on D at this point. He's not bad, but he's nowhere close to the rim protector he's thought of or that he once was 5 or 6 years ago. Gambles too much and constantly gets caught out of position. I wouldn't call him bad, but he's closer to an average defensive player than the stud he's thought of.
The benefit of him is that he and Bagley in the starting 5 would instantly boost our rebounding to more than respectable levels. And he's still an excellent rim runner that takes highly effective shots and is the most efficient player in the NBA. Especially now that he's fixed his FT problems, a guy who can shoot 65+% TS on 6-7 shots a game while getting to the line 3-4 times a game is extremely valuable on offense. His offensive game is what we hoped WCS would someday become.
It'd basically be an upgrade over what we have now with WCS in the rotation. Not the worst idea, but think we can spend the 18-20 mil it'd cost to bring him in more effectively.
burekijogurt
Starter
yeah ofensively and rebounding wise he is an upgrade over WCS. you could even argue his, as of now, at best average interior defense is better than WCS. what you lose is PNR defense, switching, 3 pt defense which WCS was better at. the pain point might just move to a different spot defensively especially with Bagley still going through growing pains as far as team D is concerned. and there is also the fit with Bagley ofensively consideration (rim runner that cannot shoot to pair with Bagley?) and as you mention, is the pricetag worth it?
LPKingsFan
All-Star
This is an important point. There’s a certain order of operations that comes with team building in this way. Since you can go over the cap to keep existing players, but not add new ones, it makes sense to try to add the impact players in the next year or two, before you lose cap space extending the young core.
ParniValjak
All-Star
This is exactly the reasoning. If we use the cap space on quality signing now, it allows us to get a quality playre on 2 on the books before we re-sign the young core and go over the cap to do so. If we use the cap space to re-sign the young core then we are missing out on getting quality via free agency and without a 1st round pick, it becomes difficult for us to add genuine talent in any other way.
We must use the cap space on an impact player or two. A genuine starter at C who would start for majority of NBA teams and a good bench player who is a border line starter, preferably at PG but who can play a bit off the ball as well. Beverly would be ideal but Clippers aren't letting him go.
I think with Barnes, Buddy and Bogdan we are set for the minutes at 2/3. It would be nice to add another vet swingman who plays when the injuries strike. Would love Shumpert back in this role and the added bonus of locker room chemistry would be very welcome.
Sactown ExPat
Starter
Should his team flame out of the second round and he declines his option, Al Horford would be an interesting option. Would be a defensive captain and could stretch the floor. Perfect culture fit. He’d be the “Vlade” signing of this generation of players—perceived as being over the hill, but probably still has 3-4 years of really productive basketball left.
OPrime
G-League
Not sure which way Horford is leaning with his player option but I’d imagine for him to opt out and test the market he has to believe he can get a 3-4 year deal worth close to $25 mill. With Kyrie likely to leave and freeing up cap space I see him staying in Boston where he wants to finish his career. If he does become available he’d be my number one front court option for this team. Like you said despite his age, perfect fit on and off the court.
Kingsfan23
All-Star
Preferably it would be young players with upside
Yes, yes, it was gallows humor. I think you can safely count me out of the I-Hate-WCS crowd.
OPrime
G-League
I can't argue that but will say the Kings are currently constructed in a way that fans should be very excited even if we don't add youth this offseason. We've gone through years of young players with upside we tried to be optimistic about but took lots of projection and in most cases didn't come to fruition like Whiteside, Donte Greene, Jimmer(?), Thomas Robinson, Stauskas and so on. We currently have 4-5 core young players that have already shown growth, work ethic, and enjoy playing with each other. Fox, Bagley and Giles won't be entering their prime for a few years so infusing a veteran player or two that can still play and help show them how to lead I don't think would be a bad thing right now.
I know in years past when we were a perennial 25 win team and giving mediocre vets significant minutes was demoralizing because it felt like we were going no where. Right now we should be adding talent to ensure we are a playoff team next year and begin a culture of expectation of that's what we are for the foreseeable future. I think adding some experience on 2-3 year deals right now will allow us to re-sign players in the coming years might be more ideal. Barnes is actually the same age as both Bogdan and Buddy all at 26.
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Sactown ExPat
Starter
I disagree. I think a consistent vet and locker room elder statesman would be best—a defensive captain and player conduit to help impart what Luke is teaching. We need a known commodity at C. Moreover, it would be ideal if a C/PF signee was on big money now, but would step down to a smaller salary and bench role in about 3 years (should Vlade/Luke choose to keep him) when Fox/Bagley start making big money.
NME
Starter
Horford never occurred to me because until recently it seemed impossible he'd leave. If Kyrie is leaving and they rethink the roster, who knows?
Horford's offensive and defensive versatility plus experience would be an incredible addition to the Kings.
burekijogurt
Starter
yes, I understood that, just used that sub-discussion about low number of rebounds to point out this fact which was suprising to me, and I figured it would be surprising to many others as well.
ockingsfan
Starter
I can't see a 33 year old Horford declining his option this summer. He is set to make $30 million next year. He's going to accept the option.
If anything, if Kyrie opts out and signs elsewhere, Horford may become trade bait if Boston goes into rebuild mode.
Yes I've been on the Vonleh train all year. He's better at C, still just 23 years old, plays really good defense, he's an excellent rebounder, added a 3-ball the past 2 years and he can flex at the 4 or 5 if needed. Can have some really creative big man LU's with Bagley/Giles/Bjelica/Vonleh that would make us difficult to match-up with.
Statistically too, just saw a nice boost in everything in addition to him being a very good rebounder: Think he's definitely a guy too where he gets better when not playing on a completely crap team and can stay in his defined role.
OPrime
G-League
I agree with you that I think he’ll opt in unless he is set on getting one last multi year deal now. There have been guys on the wrong side of 30 in recent years that got similar to what he may be looking for and he’s better than all of them when they got these deals
- Joakim Noah at 31 signed for 4yrs/72m
- Dwight Howard at 31 signed 3yrs/$70m
- Paul Milsap at 32 signed 2yrs/$61m
- Dirk Nowitzki at 38 signed 1yr/$25m
- Pau Gasol at 36 signed 3yrs/$48m
uhh, not true. Zach Randolph only played 1 season in the NBA when we signed him...and he's now about out of the league. Afflalo played 2 seasons in the NBA, but he barely played in the 2nd year... and he's now out of the league.
Signing Horford would need to come down to $$$. Signing him to a big deal would be a very bad idea. He's going to be 33 yearsold next year, so don't be surprised to see him drop off like Gasol did.
We've seen plenty of big men like OPrime point out that reached 30+, then immediately fell off a cliff and had horrible contracts. Horford would be just that. I would be ok with a 1+1, but he'd be opting out for a long-term deal, something I don't think we'd offer him.
If you already have Giles playing at least 15-20min at C and Bagley for at least 10-20min in small ball lineups (as his offensive skillset is best utilized as C with no one clogging the lane), thats 25-40min worth of Center play
--> Do not overspend at Center
If players like Deandre Jordan, Valanciunas, Gasol cost close to 20mil and players like McGee, Brook&Robin Lopez, Dedmond, Thomas Bryant, Ed Davis, Salah Mejri cost under 5mil (some might be over 5mil but some will be under)
-->Do not overspend at Center
I also would like to sign players that are effective playoff players. A lot of traditional centers struggle some in the playoffs when the opposing team really gameplans against them. By going small and forcing the center to defend behind the 3 point line while putting him constantly in screen actions, it gets harder for them. The value of those traditional Centers could drop a bit in the playoffs. Vucevic hasnt impressed this year, Cavs took advantage of Valanciunas every year and even Gobert as a best rim protector in the league had tough time against a team like Warriors. I really wouldnt like to pay huge money for a guy whose value decreases in the playoffs. Financially its smarter to get a good cheap option that you can use against those best big men if you need to.
Also we currently have only one decent sized playoff level 3&D wing. The value of those guys increases in the playoffs. Ideally you would have multiple players on the floor that a)spread the floor, b)has size and ability to defend multiple positions and handle switching and c)attack close outs from the perimeter. We currently have one that can operate on a level that is needed in the playoffs. When you can fix the hole at C very cheaply, you should really devote your recources to get these versatile 3&D wings
--> Do not overspend at Center
If players like Deandre Jordan, Valanciunas, Gasol cost close to 20mil and players like McGee, Brook&Robin Lopez, Dedmond, Thomas Bryant, Ed Davis, Salah Mejri cost under 5mil (some might be over 5mil but some will be under)
-->Do not overspend at Center
I also would like to sign players that are effective playoff players. A lot of traditional centers struggle some in the playoffs when the opposing team really gameplans against them. By going small and forcing the center to defend behind the 3 point line while putting him constantly in screen actions, it gets harder for them. The value of those traditional Centers could drop a bit in the playoffs. Vucevic hasnt impressed this year, Cavs took advantage of Valanciunas every year and even Gobert as a best rim protector in the league had tough time against a team like Warriors. I really wouldnt like to pay huge money for a guy whose value decreases in the playoffs. Financially its smarter to get a good cheap option that you can use against those best big men if you need to.
Also we currently have only one decent sized playoff level 3&D wing. The value of those guys increases in the playoffs. Ideally you would have multiple players on the floor that a)spread the floor, b)has size and ability to defend multiple positions and handle switching and c)attack close outs from the perimeter. We currently have one that can operate on a level that is needed in the playoffs. When you can fix the hole at C very cheaply, you should really devote your recources to get these versatile 3&D wings
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Agent23
Starter
I wonder what kind of market he’s going to have? I would hope he’s a guy the Kings would target as his age and skill set fit in with what they are trying to do.
Sactown ExPat
Starter
Huh? What do Zach and Afflalo have to do with this conversation?
Also, which Gasol? Marc is still productive and Pau was productive until he was about 37/38. He was still really solid for San Antonio last year--he obviously didn't have it this year. Not sure where any of the quoted commentary is going here.
He's the perfect target for us. Probably someone who gets undervalued right out of the gate, fits the age timeline perfectly, can play that complimentary minutes role (20-25 MPG), that we need behind Bagley and Giles and won't break the bank. That's the biggest issue I have with people slotting us a big time big man signing is we don't really need to add another big minutes piece with expected minutes bumps for Bagley and Giles:
Bagley-34+ MPG
Giles-25+ MPG (hopefully)
Bjelica-12-15 MPG
Barnes-10ish MPG at small-ball PF.
That slots a need for a 20 MPG guy ideally that can flex to both positions. Not a Vuc or DJ type who would expect 30+ MPG.
burekijogurt
Starter
we should keep WCS. there will be constant complaining in the game threads as our new "saviour" center inevitably fails to do everything: block shots, get all the rebounds, defend the post, defend the paint from drivers, defend the PNR, switch on guards/wings, defend the 3 point line, score on more than 56% of his shots, stretch the floor, show the consistency that everyone imagines he will show, etc....
ParniValjak
All-Star
This is not the time to go cheap. This is the time to go out and get a star to add to the young core to move us from a lottery team into a perennial play off team.
Going cheap does not help the team other than Vivek's wallet. This is all about making the best use of cap space. If you can add a star level player on a 4 year deal that catapults you to the play offs and in his contract time into a contender, then you DO IT!
This is realistically the only way that we can add an impact player and go over the cap. Its the easiest and smartest way to get good again. Holding onto cap space and going cheap makes it so much harder especially without the 1st round pick.
Going cheap does not help the team other than Vivek's wallet. This is all about making the best use of cap space. If you can add a star level player on a 4 year deal that catapults you to the play offs and in his contract time into a contender, then you DO IT!
This is realistically the only way that we can add an impact player and go over the cap. Its the easiest and smartest way to get good again. Holding onto cap space and going cheap makes it so much harder especially without the 1st round pick.
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