Bid too low and other latest news, rumors, etc.
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uolj
Starter
Nobody mentioned Stern talking about an April 3rd meeting to discuss/settle the Sacramento bid. Anybody have info or see any reporting on that?
It sounded like it might be when any Sac bids are finally laid out so the BOG has 2 weeks to study, but the way it read on twitter reports left open the possibility it was bigger than that.
The news about the Mastrov bid was disappointing in that it leaves open the possibility that they won't put in a competitive bid. But I'd echo what others have said about the Hansena and the Maloofs making it hard to come up with a counter so there's still plenty of hope that the Mastrov bid can be increased.
It sounded like it might be when any Sac bids are finally laid out so the BOG has 2 weeks to study, but the way it read on twitter reports left open the possibility it was bigger than that.
The news about the Mastrov bid was disappointing in that it leaves open the possibility that they won't put in a competitive bid. But I'd echo what others have said about the Hansena and the Maloofs making it hard to come up with a counter so there's still plenty of hope that the Mastrov bid can be increased.
Mojo
G-League
"The league has scheduled a meeting April 3 in New York to avoid rushing debate on the issue. Representatives from Sacramento and Seattle will have a chance to present their case at that meeting, Stern said.
The NBA Board of Governors will convene April 18, when a vote is expected to take place on the sale and relocation of the Kings franchise."
Section 101
All-Star
April 2nd or 3rd whatever is when both parties give presentations to the sub committee on their proposals.
Brac-o-matic
G-League
True. But the fact that David Stern seems confident that Mastrov will up the bid, and the fact that he went out of his way to meet with Matrov last night in Oakland, shows me that Stern wants him to be part of his league. One quote I liked last night:
Whitey Gleason @whiteygleason
David Stern just on the #Warriors telecast, talking about New Orleans, said "We LOVE to keep teams in places where it works ..."
Seems like a message to us. That, coupled with the fact that he made it clear that the Maloofs will NOT dictate where this franchise ends up, plus the fact that he is making it clear that he WANTS Sacramento to have a competitive bid and really be in the equation, says a lot to me. As long as Mastrov comes up with the dough, which he sounds very confident that he will, we are in a very good position. I think.
Trueblood
Bench
Interesting to note that the only one's not showing their middle finger were Price and Funderburke, who are Christians.
ninjabiscuit
Bench
We're in good shape.
Agreed. I feel like we're in really good shape now, and I'm kind of surprised that Stern showed his hand like that. If he wanted the team in Seattle, all he had to do was say nothing. Think about that.
I've never felt this confident that Sac is in the driver's seat. Stern is walking Mastrov up the aisle. Seriously if NBA was not engineering a way to keep the Kings in Sac they would have let the first light bid fail, and there would be no blood on NBA hands - they would just shrug and say "the counter was not competitive"... simple as that. But no... Stern said "raise the offer" and he also said in no uncertain terms that it is NOT up to the Maloofs. I feel great - we are going to keep the Kings... holy crap!!
Agreed. I feel like we're in really good shape now, and I'm kind of surprised that Stern showed his hand like that. If he wanted the team in Seattle, all he had to do was say nothing. Think about that.
Trueblood
Bench
This is what I've been wondering since long before Hansen put in a bid for the team. When I speculated that he may throw in a bid that is much higher than a Sacramento offer, I wondered how legalities would come into play. While it's idealistic to think that a sports league would keep a team home despite a higher bid and more formalized arena plan, we're also talking about the Maloofs here.
When all is said and done and the loans are paid off, they are only getting around $90 million from Hansen. 52% of $525 is roughly $270. Subtract the $180 in loan money and you have a Maloof payoff of $90 million that is split among 5 siblings and a Mother. Being that they are wild spenders, that doesn't leave much. Therefore, I have to think that they have some sort of legal claim if the Hansen bid gets shot down by the BOG.
Even if you don't factor in the loans and they get the full $270 split among the 6, there is always talk of them trying to buy back the Palms which will mean that they will want every possible penny and will possibly be open to a lawsuit should they be forced to take a smaller offer.
Or do they? I have no idea. This is why I always inquire about it. If the BOG can hypothetically tell them to go to hell, I think this opens up some doors for the whales.
Trueblood
Bench
Agreed. He remembers how things went in Seattle. While he was far from being the ultimate villain in the Sonics to OKC deal, perception is reality and perception is that he was most responsible for the departure. He wants to make sure Sacramento has every shot to keep the team so he's letting them know now, before it's too late, to up the bid because if they don't, they aren't going to keep the team.
In Seattle, things fell apart and the league took on a black eye as a result. If he tells the Mastrov group at the last second that the bid fell short then there will be people wondering why Stern didn't make the necessity of a larger bid clear from the get go so that KJ and crew could financially plan accordingly. By doing the presser, everything is out in the open and less blame will go to him and the league.
Trueblood
Bench
Because he wants everything out in the open to avoid another 2008 Sonics to OKC mess where everyone accused him of pulling strings behind the scenes to get to OKC. By going public now, nobody can do that this time.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
In one of Stern's first comments on this duel of the two cities, he said the decision of the BOG may depend on whether the BOG is willing to think outside of the box. Something like that. I think in retrospect he knew the bid from M/B would be lower than that of H/B and that "outside of the box" meant the pure economics would need to be ignored and other factors taken into account. I think he saw trouble for M/B from the beginning if it came down to a money pissing contest. His vision of the NBA may be smack up against the basic instinct of businessmen to go with the biggest bid. H/B are willing and able to buy a team and lose money.
Are M/B willing to overbid? I would suspect so if they have the money. The value of the Maloof's portion of the Kings has doubled since they bought the team. Unfortunately it is not as if their entire self worth is sitting at home in a safe. They have other investments that may not be so easily liquidated. Neither may be willing to put all their eggs in one basket which may be Mastrov's problem. There are many questions that I have that I suspect can't be answered because of secrecy in the negotiations. We certainly don't know everything and neither do the dueling parties.
I am stuck with the most simplistic question of whether Mastrov and Burkle can act as partners or must they be two separate entities like the minority partners. I think we have all been assuming that they can act as one entity and ARE acting as one entity and that may very well be true. As of now, we have Mastrov bidding on the team and Burkle working out something with the arena. Perhaps I have missed something. This is an amazingly complex deal that both sides are trying to pull off.
Heck, even in Seattle's their attempt at replacing Key Arena is stuck in court. Question number 2 in this long list I have is can a team move if there is no guarantee of an arena? There are so many battles on so many fronts. In the end, most of my questions would be moot if Mastrov had enough cash on hand to purchase the Kings with an adequate bid.
Thanks Mike for leading the charge for us fans. Too bad everything isn't in the hands of Mike. it would be difficult even then.
And now I am off to the far simpler NASCAR where you hop in a car and turn left.
Are M/B willing to overbid? I would suspect so if they have the money. The value of the Maloof's portion of the Kings has doubled since they bought the team. Unfortunately it is not as if their entire self worth is sitting at home in a safe. They have other investments that may not be so easily liquidated. Neither may be willing to put all their eggs in one basket which may be Mastrov's problem. There are many questions that I have that I suspect can't be answered because of secrecy in the negotiations. We certainly don't know everything and neither do the dueling parties.
I am stuck with the most simplistic question of whether Mastrov and Burkle can act as partners or must they be two separate entities like the minority partners. I think we have all been assuming that they can act as one entity and ARE acting as one entity and that may very well be true. As of now, we have Mastrov bidding on the team and Burkle working out something with the arena. Perhaps I have missed something. This is an amazingly complex deal that both sides are trying to pull off.
Heck, even in Seattle's their attempt at replacing Key Arena is stuck in court. Question number 2 in this long list I have is can a team move if there is no guarantee of an arena? There are so many battles on so many fronts. In the end, most of my questions would be moot if Mastrov had enough cash on hand to purchase the Kings with an adequate bid.
Thanks Mike for leading the charge for us fans. Too bad everything isn't in the hands of Mike. it would be difficult even then.
And now I am off to the far simpler NASCAR where you hop in a car and turn left.
Trueblood
Bench
I have thought about this as well. It's possible that we may see a block of the sale to Hansen or an acceptance but on a conditional level. Meaning that the sale and relocation go through provided the EIS comes out positive for Hansen and the judge throws out the remaining lawsuit. Otherwise, team goes back to the Maloofs who would then hopefully sell to Mastrov.
Or you block the sale contingent on Sacramento getting everything lined up for a downtown plaza arena. If it falls apart, original Hansen sale goes through. Then again, I don't know if any of that passes the legal smell taste either so take it with a grain of salt.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I also was surprised that Stern made the statement he did. If your not taking sides, you just say nothing. But his statement is like insider trading. He's sort of giving out info from one party to another party, that the bankruptsy court had to file subpoena to get. By taking this step, he's obviously on the side of sacramento, and doing everything he can to walk them through it successfully. No one but the court, and the league office knows all the details of the Hansen bid. So Mastrov and Burkle were shooting blind to some extent.
Just judging from what I've read, Mastrov bid more for the Warriors, so I have no reason to believe they won't come up with a competitive bid by april 3rd. The way I read this, is Mastrov and Burkle shot an arrow blindly in the air, and it landed short of its target. Stern just told them to add a little elevation to the next shot.
Just judging from what I've read, Mastrov bid more for the Warriors, so I have no reason to believe they won't come up with a competitive bid by april 3rd. The way I read this, is Mastrov and Burkle shot an arrow blindly in the air, and it landed short of its target. Stern just told them to add a little elevation to the next shot.
uolj
Starter
I'd imagine the arena efforts will be in fairly similar states when it comes to vote, with perhaps (hopefully) the Sac arena a little further along. If they stumble on the arena deal in Sacramento that would probably be the end of the bid anyway, but if they get it done then they are at a similar spot as Seattle is. I think Sacramento would have a few fewer hoops to jump through, but I don't think the Seattle arena deal is so shaky as to prevent a deal, and it sounds like there won't be much more action on that front before the BOG vote anyway.
Right now it seems like we need to wait and see if:
(1) Mastrov/Burkle can come up with a truly competitive bid that isn't dismissed out of hand.
(2) Burkle/Sacramento can come up with an arena deal that the council likes and Burkle and friends are willing to sign on to.
(3) There are 8 NBA owners willing to vote against the sale in order to prevent a team from moving out of a viable city.
(4) Kehriotis or other investors step in with (1) and (2) in the next few weeks if Mastrov/Burkle fail.
Right now it seems like we need to wait and see if:
(1) Mastrov/Burkle can come up with a truly competitive bid that isn't dismissed out of hand.
(2) Burkle/Sacramento can come up with an arena deal that the council likes and Burkle and friends are willing to sign on to.
(3) There are 8 NBA owners willing to vote against the sale in order to prevent a team from moving out of a viable city.
(4) Kehriotis or other investors step in with (1) and (2) in the next few weeks if Mastrov/Burkle fail.
uolj
Starter
I'd be careful if I was Dave about jumping to those kind of conclusions just because the numbers are close. While it's an obvious possibility that Mastrov's bid made some assumptions that were incorrect about Hansen's bid and fell short because of that, it's also a realistic possibility that those factors were included and Mastrov simply didn't value the Kings that highly, at least in the first go around.
Also, it may turn out that even if Mastrov makes the argument that it's the same amount of money in the Maloofs pocket at the end of the day, the BOG and Stern might want any competitive bid to match the $525 million team value from Hansen's bid. Driving up the value of other franchises might be more important in determining a worthy bid than being "fair" to the Maloofs.
Just because he has the money doesn't mean he'll spend it just to get the team. Wasn't the $420 million bid for the Warriors for the whole team? It's not a certainty he would bid $340 million for 65% of the Kings even if he had the money. Forbes listed the total team's value under $300 million not too long ago. It's not far fetched to think a businessman would choose not to go that far.
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Ryan
I like turtles
Agreed. He seems a little too optomistic. Here's the rest
@CarmichaelDave: So Mastrov/Burkle gambled that city loan WAS included in Hansen offer,apparently it wasn't.Sac needs 77 mil+arena deal to keep team. Period.
@CarmichaelDave: Again, pretty cut and dry. An additional 77 mil and a clear path arena deal will retain the Kings for Sacramento. This is the chessboard.
@CarmichaelDave: Doesn't mean at all loan wouldn't be paid. Most likely means loan would be paid by Hansen group separate from purchase price. Bid sealed.
@CarmichaelDave: With sealed Hansen bid, there was no way for Mastrov to know how it was formulated. He guessed. Now he knows.
@CarmichaelDave: I have also been assured that based on the new information,there will be an additional and improved bid from Mastrov.This will be non-issue.
@CarmichaelDave: As far as loan goes, 65 million if team stays. Mastrov would assume loan, refi in 3 years when prepay drops.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Simple question: are Mastrov and Burkle partners in bidding on the Kings?
And another: if Hansen's bid includes payoff of the city loan and relocation fee, why does Mastrov's bid have to include the same amounts? The amount of money is vastly different if the team stays in Sacramento or is moved. The team has a value, the relocation fee has an unknown value, repaying the city has a value, etc. Wouldn't an offer spell out what money is for what and not just one amount with no specifics?
I will take CD's word that the next offer will be adequate.
And another: if Hansen's bid includes payoff of the city loan and relocation fee, why does Mastrov's bid have to include the same amounts? The amount of money is vastly different if the team stays in Sacramento or is moved. The team has a value, the relocation fee has an unknown value, repaying the city has a value, etc. Wouldn't an offer spell out what money is for what and not just one amount with no specifics?
I will take CD's word that the next offer will be adequate.
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Mojo
G-League
I can't buy into Matrov just guessing what to bid when he, plus Burkle, had been talking to the Comminsher extensively leading up to this. Right now it looks like Stern laid out the price and Mastrov had a different idea of how much the team was worth. Stern then took it to the media to help get that little extra push in making Mastrov up the offer.
Stern's a business man. And while he wants to lead us there, he always wants to maximize the price as much as possible. I'm not worried about this too much because I think Mastrov is going to come up now. He wants to win.
Stern's a business man. And while he wants to lead us there, he always wants to maximize the price as much as possible. I'm not worried about this too much because I think Mastrov is going to come up now. He wants to win.
uolj
Starter
I don't trust Dave that it was the city loan that threw off the numbers, but the part above seems like the most obvious (and best hope) answer. We'll see if Mastrov is comfortable increasing the bid. I'd lean towards a yes, but you can't be sure until he does.
Probably. Reports are that they are both involved in both parts of the deal, but Mastrov is the point man on the bid for the Kings and Burkle is the point man on the arena and Downtown renovation. I don't know if it's 100% confirmed that Burkle would have a piece of the Kings, but the indications and reports are that he would have some piece but Mastrov would be the principle owner.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
It makes a substantial difference, doesn't it? My question is based on the assumption that none of the minority partners are front men for anyone but themselves. Perhaps it is a requirement that one person represents only himself. Perhaps not. We don't know.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Why is it so hard to believe that they didn't have enough information. Hansen's bid is a sealed bid. You can know, or come close to knowing what the total amount of the bid was, but there was no way for them to know if the arena loan was included in that price. They may have concluded that it was, and bid accordingly. Most of us on this fourm assumed that the arena loan was included in that bid. So now they know that it wasn't. At least according to Carmichael Dave.
If you believe that the arena loan is included, then your not going to bid as though it isn't. That would mean that if your correct, you'd be overpaying by around 70 million dollars. And as stated, these guys are businessmen. They're going to try and get the team for as little as possible. Now, hopefully, they know what as little as possible is.
whozit
Starter
On the sealed bid part, I found it strange that one of the "insiders" on the "sonicsrising" site indicated a couple of days ago that the bid was short, way short. I was under the impression that Mastrov's bid was also sealed. How did he/they know? Did Stern level the playing field?
Kingsfan23
All-Star
In the end ethics and reputation of the league have to come in to play as well. It's like someone else said, an outside Alaska investor coming in and valueing the Lakers at something exorbitant, not being matched by locals and moving them to Anchorage. Or someone overvalueing the Packers and moving them, when locals have a fair market bid at the table. Money shouldn't dictate if a market isn't desirable enough to keep its team, that isn't the precedent to set for a national league that wants to uphold its reputation. We'll see how it goes.
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The NBA takes privacy extremely seriously obviously. Sealed bid leakage to me would be an extreme breach of contract and eliminate any possible NBA team partner. This is fishing until a final bid becomes comparable. Exact same scenario with Mastrov's bids in the Warrior scenario.
When Seattle fans says they want to know what the Mastrov bid is (by a local source, close to the Hansen bid), they are risking this part of the bid process, more power to them!
Mastrov will continue to increase. This may be his only chance to obtain a NBA team, at least a local one. Stern is actually guiding this fishing trip. I feel very good about this, since there wasn't supposed to be any talk by Stern on this West coast trip.
Note: Mastrov seems to be easily approachable and didn't hesitate to quickly commit to next step of this venture. Also cool he was with his daughter at the game
He's got my BiG vote.
Padrino
All-Star
well, the warriors are also a bay area team, which increases their value relative to a less populous region like sacramento. mastrov may just not see the value here in sacramento that he saw in oakland, so i think you're right, it's not far fetched to believe that a businessman of mastrov's stature would ultimately decide to deliver what he believes to be a fair bid, and lose out on the kings, rather than overpay for the team...
edit: that said, he's been aggressive in both his pursuit of the warriors and the kings thus far, and if he's serious about getting a seat at the nba's table, this is his likeliest chance, so i do expect KJ's team to go back to the drawing board. i am certain that they will ultimately produce a higher bid, the question then becomes "will it be enough?"
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Trueblood
Bench
OTOH, there is the argument that the Kings have the market all to themselves while the Warriors have to battle with 5 other teams in the bay area plus Cal and Stanford.
Padrino
All-Star
well, the kings do own their entire market share, but the warriors also have no problem competing with the other teams they share their market with. warriors fans are as loyal as they come in the nba. there's a reason that franchise was valued so highly. it's in a very large market where it has been consistently competitive. the same can be said of the former seattle sonics, though the city of seattle failed in working with the nba to provide an adequate sports and entertainment complex. ultimately, the hansen group overpaid to convince the maloofs to sell, and it had the ancillary effect of driving up the price for competing local investors who would choose to keep the kings in a city where the team wouldn't be valued as highly as it would in a larger market like seattle...
Trueblood
Bench
This is another thing that I hope that the BOG is looking at. You mention that the Kings wouldn't be valued as high here as opposed to Seattle but there is also the issue of the Maloofs poisoning the market a bit. A non Maloof owned team in downtown Sacramento pushes the value up too. A return to the glory years in a modern arena could very well justify a $525 million valuation.
Also, while I think Seattle would be a good 3 sport market, there is the issue of the NHL continuing to try and come to Seattle. This scares the Mariners and while it doesn't scare Hansen due to the possibility of another major tenant helping him pay off his debt, the presence of the NHL could very well lower the value of the Sonics a bit. In no way am I saying that an NHL would be above the NBA in Seattle but their mere presence would bring a segment of the population over thus lowering the value of the Sonics.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Three sports? It's more than that:
Seachickens, Mariners, Sounders, UW.
Adding an NBA team and then an NHL team may bring things to a tipping point.
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