Bibby to Cleveland...on again, off again, etc.
- Thread starter Fresno King
- Start date
The Kings are not dealing from a position of strength. Your list, while ideal, fails to factor that in.
I heard talk at one point that Garcia could run the point. I don't know if this has been addressed anywhere, but I think that would be a disaster.
Nevertheless, I like the idea of getting rid of Bibby's monster contract, even though I think it'll leave them a LOT weaker next year. Too many forwards, not enough PGs. But that sets them up for the next set of deals, and my thinking is the Kings had better be close to a buyout of KT's and/or Miller's contract(s). That would get rid of part of their PF glut.
Getting rid of Bibby probably means 35 wins is unattainable for next year, but I think it sets them up better for beyond 2008. Face it, they're a lottery team next year, so you might as well look to the future and upgrade where you can, when you can.
I heard talk at one point that Garcia could run the point. I don't know if this has been addressed anywhere, but I think that would be a disaster.
Nevertheless, I like the idea of getting rid of Bibby's monster contract, even though I think it'll leave them a LOT weaker next year. Too many forwards, not enough PGs. But that sets them up for the next set of deals, and my thinking is the Kings had better be close to a buyout of KT's and/or Miller's contract(s). That would get rid of part of their PF glut.
Getting rid of Bibby probably means 35 wins is unattainable for next year, but I think it sets them up better for beyond 2008. Face it, they're a lottery team next year, so you might as well look to the future and upgrade where you can, when you can.
In the past I would have agreed with you but the Kings are in rebuilding mode now and the young guys needs minutes to grow. Yeah, with Gooden I know what I'm getting but I also know that's all I'm going to get. Williams could develop into a 15 points, 11 rebounds, and 3 blocks guy in time and is far more athletic. I don't know if he will but at this point we need to take those chances.
This is why I mentioned PLAYS small. Here is a short but impressive list of Kings bigs who blocked more shots than Gooden last year: Miller, Reef, KT, Cisco, Artest and Salmons.
He's not long, he's not terribly athletic, he's not intimidating. Until he, like KT, started rebounding (which he does do well), there were thoughts he might be a 4/3 tweener.An NBA guard sees Gooden in between him and the hoop and his eyes get real real wide. Layup!
It's true that the Kings are not dealing from a position of strength, that being the case if they can't get what they need then they simply don't have to deal. IMO the Kings are better with Bibby than Gooden and Jones and if Bibby happens to have a breakout year with the new offense and he would have an expiring contract after next season. With all of that he would be a monster trading asset next season.
As far as the Garcia thing, I don't think the plan was to make him the PG, it's just he would bring the ball up and run the point every once in awhile to mix it up. That frees up Bibby to play SG on offense like when Bobby was here.
As far as the Garcia thing, I don't think the plan was to make him the PG, it's just he would bring the ball up and run the point every once in awhile to mix it up. That frees up Bibby to play SG on offense like when Bobby was here.
This is why I mentioned PLAYS small. Here is a short but impressive list of Kings bigs who blocked more shots than Gooden last year: Miller, Reef, KT, Cisco, Artest and Salmons. He's not long, he's not terribly athletic, he's not intimidating. Until he, like KT, started rebounding (which he does do well), there were thoughts he might be a 4/3 tweener.
An NBA guard sees Gooden in between him and the hoop and his eyes get real real wide. Layup!
He's not long, he's not terribly athletic, he's not intimidating. Until he, like KT, started rebounding (which he does do well), there were thoughts he might be a 4/3 tweener.An NBA guard sees Gooden in between him and the hoop and his eyes get real real wide. Layup!
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2935125
By Mark Stein
Cleveland is the team everyone's watching as the 55-game Vegas circuit dribbles to a close Sunday.
For a couple reasons:
The Cavs, according to NBA front-office sources, are getting even more serious than they were in February to assemble a deal that lands them Mike Bibby.
The Cavs, sources say, would have to send Drew Gooden to Sacramento in any deal for Bibby, which would make re-signing restricted free agent Anderson Varejao even more of a priority for Cleveland than it was a week ago. Yet Varejao is said to be strongly weighing the prospect of calling off negotiations this summer and invoking Cleveland's $1.3 million qualifying offer for next season, because the sides are so far apart in negotiations. If he chooses that option, Varejao would become an unrestricted free agent in the summer of 2008.
A trade involving Gooden would restore a good bit of the leverage Varejao appeared to lose when Memphis decided to use its salary-cap space on Darko Milicic as opposed to the Big Brazilian.
By Mark Stein
Cleveland is the team everyone's watching as the 55-game Vegas circuit dribbles to a close Sunday.
For a couple reasons:
The Cavs, according to NBA front-office sources, are getting even more serious than they were in February to assemble a deal that lands them Mike Bibby.
The Cavs, sources say, would have to send Drew Gooden to Sacramento in any deal for Bibby, which would make re-signing restricted free agent Anderson Varejao even more of a priority for Cleveland than it was a week ago. Yet Varejao is said to be strongly weighing the prospect of calling off negotiations this summer and invoking Cleveland's $1.3 million qualifying offer for next season, because the sides are so far apart in negotiations. If he chooses that option, Varejao would become an unrestricted free agent in the summer of 2008.
A trade involving Gooden would restore a good bit of the leverage Varejao appeared to lose when Memphis decided to use its salary-cap space on Darko Milicic as opposed to the Big Brazilian.
The reason Seattle got something like a $12 million trade exception was because they signed and traded Lewis to a team under the salary cap (the Magic). Both Cleveland and Sacramento are over the cap, so it doesn't create a trade exception.
I don't think Gooden is a long-term solution at the PF, so yeah, even if you got him I'd still hope the Kings would go after young prospects. But if Petrie can't move KT and SAR there's basically no room for even a prospect. People might want the vets to ride pine, but if there's any hope of trading them in the future they're going to have to play. That means little to no time for the kids as long as they're on the roster.
I don't think Gooden is a long-term solution at the PF, so yeah, even if you got him I'd still hope the Kings would go after young prospects. But if Petrie can't move KT and SAR there's basically no room for even a prospect. People might want the vets to ride pine, but if there's any hope of trading them in the future they're going to have to play. That means little to no time for the kids as long as they're on the roster.
As I have said before I'm not to keen on "letting the kids play". If that's what we are going to do then the Maloofs should give me a discount on my tickets. I want them to stay competitive but don't be stupid. Petrie has his eye on 2 years down the road(meaning 09'-'10) and from the looks of it we will be well under the cap(anywhere from 20-25 million).
At this point Gooden is superior to both KT and SAR simply because he seems to just go out and play and he is a better rebounder and does a little of the dirty work(Not to mention he's 4-5 years younger than both). He's probably not the long term answer but I do like what I have seen in Yi and he could have a bright future but it's way too early to tell.
At this point Gooden is superior to both KT and SAR simply because he seems to just go out and play and he is a better rebounder and does a little of the dirty work(Not to mention he's 4-5 years younger than both). He's probably not the long term answer but I do like what I have seen in Yi and he could have a bright future but it's way too early to tell.
You know, I actually see the sense in that deal for all sides. Gooden would be a better fit than Noah in Chicago. I still don't see the sense in why Chicago drafted Noah. (If anybody knows the answer to that mystery, please let me know.) Gooden is a better low post scorer than Noah, which is what Chicago needs. He's also ready-to-go, whereas Noah is going to need about 2-3 years work to get up to speed. Chicago wants to win now. Gooden fits. Noah fits for us because we need the very athletic 4 man that can compensate defensively for Hawes, but who doesn't necessarily have to score much. Bibby makes sense for the scoreless Cavs. I really don't see why all 3 teams wouldn't jump at it.
I guess I can through my idea out there, a 9 player trade:
SAC
->Bibby, Thomas
<-Newble, Doleac, J. Will, Corpse of B. Sura
CLE
->Hughes, Gooden, Newble
<-Bibby, Thomas, Snyder
HOU
->Sura, Snyder
<-Gooden
MIA
->J. Will, Doleac
<-L. Hughes
Why we do it:
All 4 of those contracts end after this season, nor will they take any PT from the kids.
Why CLE does it:
They upgrade from Hughes to Bibby and just start Wild Thing, also Snyder is better than Newble. They also do not add any salary.
Why HOU does it: Fill the big gapping hole at PF, without giving up much.
Why MIA does it: Fill the big gapping hole at PG, without giving up much.
SAC
->Bibby, Thomas
<-Newble, Doleac, J. Will, Corpse of B. Sura
CLE
->Hughes, Gooden, Newble
<-Bibby, Thomas, Snyder
HOU
->Sura, Snyder
<-Gooden
MIA
->J. Will, Doleac
<-L. Hughes
Why we do it:
All 4 of those contracts end after this season, nor will they take any PT from the kids.
Why CLE does it:
They upgrade from Hughes to Bibby and just start Wild Thing, also Snyder is better than Newble. They also do not add any salary.
Why HOU does it: Fill the big gapping hole at PF, without giving up much.
Why MIA does it: Fill the big gapping hole at PG, without giving up much.
Actually, the only reason they do NOT is because Ainge is an idiot. He just committed his franchsie to a win now 3 year window, he MUST carry through now and use that Ratliff deal to get another big talent. Just has to. If he does not, then there is no chance for them, and the deal was a waste. And the beauty of Ratliff is its the only thing he can do now that won't cost him one of his precious kids.
Of course that talent does not have to be Hughes. They still need a center too. they could for instance take a certain big hick off our hands...
And if you don't like Boston, how about the Magic? They have a huge hole at OG, and a pack of ending contracts (Arroyo, Garrity Dooling) which just happen to be worth $12million dollars. And they have big dreams. Bigger ones if they can field a Hughes/Lewis/Howard/ OG/SF/PF trio with Hedo off the bench filling in for all of them as a super 6th man:
Sacto IN ($25.4+):
Drew Gooden $6.4mil (ends 08-09)
Damon Jones $4.2mil (ends 08-09)
Carlos Arroyo $4.0mil (ender)
Pat Garrity $3.8mil (ender)
Keyon Dooling $3.6mil (ender)
Ira Newble $3.4mil (ender)
+pic or kid from Orlando
Sacto OUT($26.5):
Mike Bibby $13.5 (ends 08-09)
John Salmons $4.7 (ends 10-11)
Kenny Thomas $7.3 (ends 09-10)
Cleveland OUT ($26.0):
Larry Hughes $12.0mil
Drew Gooden $6.4mil
Damon Jones $4.2mil
Ira Newble $3.4mil
Cleveland IN ($25.5):
Mike Bibby $13.5mil
John Salmons $4.7mil
Kenny Thomas $7.3mil
Orlando OUT ($11.4):
Carlos Arroyo $4.0mil (ender)
Pat Garrity $3.8mil (ender)
Keyon Dooling $3.6mil (ender)
+ pick or kid to Sac
Orlando IN ($12.0):
Larry Hughes $12.0mil
Additional why:
Orl why: patch the huge hole at OG, get their third gun on a definite playoff team, a defensive stalwart, and a guy who can play some PG and let Nelso play off the ball where he may be more comfortable. And do it all for almost no cost at all -- just enders.
Of course that talent does not have to be Hughes. They still need a center too. they could for instance take a certain big hick off our hands...
And if you don't like Boston, how about the Magic? They have a huge hole at OG, and a pack of ending contracts (Arroyo, Garrity Dooling) which just happen to be worth $12million dollars. And they have big dreams. Bigger ones if they can field a Hughes/Lewis/Howard/ OG/SF/PF trio with Hedo off the bench filling in for all of them as a super 6th man:
Sacto IN ($25.4+):
Drew Gooden $6.4mil (ends 08-09)
Damon Jones $4.2mil (ends 08-09)
Carlos Arroyo $4.0mil (ender)
Pat Garrity $3.8mil (ender)
Keyon Dooling $3.6mil (ender)
Ira Newble $3.4mil (ender)
+pic or kid from Orlando
Sacto OUT($26.5):
Mike Bibby $13.5 (ends 08-09)
John Salmons $4.7 (ends 10-11)
Kenny Thomas $7.3 (ends 09-10)
Cleveland OUT ($26.0):
Larry Hughes $12.0mil
Drew Gooden $6.4mil
Damon Jones $4.2mil
Ira Newble $3.4mil
Cleveland IN ($25.5):
Mike Bibby $13.5mil
John Salmons $4.7mil
Kenny Thomas $7.3mil
Orlando OUT ($11.4):
Carlos Arroyo $4.0mil (ender)
Pat Garrity $3.8mil (ender)
Keyon Dooling $3.6mil (ender)
+ pick or kid to Sac
Orlando IN ($12.0):
Larry Hughes $12.0mil
Additional why:
Orl why: patch the huge hole at OG, get their third gun on a definite playoff team, a defensive stalwart, and a guy who can play some PG and let Nelso play off the ball where he may be more comfortable. And do it all for almost no cost at all -- just enders.
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He sucked in the playoffs for a team that went to the Finals, and while playing injured.
I do not think he is a good fit in Cleveland, do not think that much of him at all. But to a team in the right position this is a player capable of considerably bigger numbers, and to teams in need of an extra talent boost to get over the top, it has to be a consideration. Orlando just dropped $126mil on Rashard Lewis. Boston just cashed out for 31(2?) yr old Ray Allen. They are not bright, and they need to win now to justify those moves. Talent for nothing, talent you cannot acquire any other way when you are in need of immediate wins.
Even if you assumed that someone saw something in Hughes (I personally wouldn't want him on my team if he made $4 million let alone $12 million), Boston and Orlando are not realistic. What, would he come off the bench in Boston? He's terrible as a point guard. And Orlando would have to give up just about every last tradeable asset they have for a swingman when they have a huge gaping hole in the front court.
And Huges is just not good. He's seriously overpaid, injury prone, not a very good passer, and only a good defender in his contract year. His deal runs through 2010. He's not going anywhere.
And Huges is just not good. He's seriously overpaid, injury prone, not a very good passer, and only a good defender in his contract year. His deal runs through 2010. He's not going anywhere.
I think part of the problem is that you are just way more down on Hughes than most people. This is a career starter 15pt 4reb 4ast 1.5stl guy, even if you ignore the career year/All Star appearance/All Defensive team year of 22pts 6reb 5ast 2stl that was only 2 years ago.
He will always be injury prone, but he can play.
BTW, what gaping hole in the frontcourt? The gaping hole is at OG. They still have their same starting frontcourt from last year -- Howard and Battie. They do need a new backup 4/5, but they have NOTHING at OG. They are seriously considering starting Keith Bogans or Keyon Dooling. its dire.
He will always be injury prone, but he can play.
BTW, what gaping hole in the frontcourt? The gaping hole is at OG. They still have their same starting frontcourt from last year -- Howard and Battie. They do need a new backup 4/5, but they have NOTHING at OG. They are seriously considering starting Keith Bogans or Keyon Dooling. its dire.
Hughes is awful in Cleveland because of their system. Which is primarily why they want Bibby, and want to get away from that system. Because it's also hurting LeBron's game as well. Bibby will make LeBron better in the long run, and LeBron will make Bibby's like pretty damn easy on the court.
Hughes is capable of getting 20 a night in a system that is predicated on movement. Which is why he played his best in Washington with the Princeton offense that Eddie Jordan was running. He's not a halfcourt player at all. But if you get him in an up and down fast breaking offense, Hughes is very serviceable.
Plus, Hughes is one of the better perimeter defenders in the NBA. On one leg he pretty much shut down Billups towards the end of that series betwen the Pistons and Cavs.
Hughes is capable of getting 20 a night in a system that is predicated on movement. Which is why he played his best in Washington with the Princeton offense that Eddie Jordan was running. He's not a halfcourt player at all. But if you get him in an up and down fast breaking offense, Hughes is very serviceable.
Plus, Hughes is one of the better perimeter defenders in the NBA. On one leg he pretty much shut down Billups towards the end of that series betwen the Pistons and Cavs.
As would I, for the Kings. But nobody has suggested he's a universal great fit. Its a question of very specific situations. Before suggesting either of those I was going team by team in alphabetical order (did not go beyond Orlando). Those were the only two that I saw "fit" with the right contracts, a roster need, desire to win now etc. I for instance ignored Indiana -- too many recent personality problems for a guy with some incidents like Hughes. Think they are looking safe. I also ignored Utah (did consider them even though they came later in the alphabet) -- had a roster hole, but the contracts would have had to be Giricek (who they would do) and most likely Harping. And not only did Harping have a contract too long for us (09-10) but I decided that a no nonsense disciplinarian like Sloan might not be able to deal with Hughes, while Harping is his dream player. But Boston and Orlando...(Lakers possibly too BTW as Hughes as some of the traits PJ likes in PGs ala Ron Harper. Note I said "some". But contracts would be tough.)
Anyway, its not a universal thing by any means. But right situation and who knows? And Orlando as I think about it might be perfect given their need for a true ballhandler with their PG more of a shoot first guy. A guy like Hughes would be a nearly perfect compliment there actually. All of a sudden with the Lewis signing they have all the shooting they need. Now they need a full time starting OG who can defend and pass and score when needed. Preferably by slashing given tehat their PG and Sf are ouotside shooters/post players.
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Listening to Grant today and he was saying he believes Bibby will get traded within the next few weeks. For one Danny Ferry really wants Bibby and he is going to try and find a way to make this deal happen. The problem is the Cavs do not have anyone the Kings want. All the Kings want are young players or expiring contracts, that is why the Cavs will have to try and find a third team where we can ship Bibby to the Cavs, they can ship Gooden and someone else to that third team and that third team can ship us an expiring contract or some young players. Bibby is not getting traded because he had a bad year, it is just it is his time to go. He and the Kings need a change and the Kings are going young and setting themselves up for the free agency of 2009 when we can be 20 to 25 million under the salary cap. So the bottomline is the next two years we will most likely not be very good and winning 25 to 30 games a year and in the lottery. It sucks, but to get real good again like we want it is something we will have to sarcrifice.