Best shooting guard prospects the Kings should look at
- Thread starter ElRey
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I suppose I should point out that I'm not at all interested in building a team that wins 40 - 50 games and makes the playoffs nearly every year but is NEVER a threat to go deep into the post season or win a title. Most fans are so starved that they are ok with shipping out a top-5 player for a couple ok players just so the team can make the dang playoffs. The Kings had that circa 1996 and again in 2006. I'll guarantee those same fans would get real tired of 1st round, possible 2nd round and out every season and start complaining that the team is good but can't ever take that next step.
To take that step, you have to have 1-2 elite players (typically 2) or go 8-9 deep with really, really good players (think Spurs of the last 6-7 years). The Kings were the 8-9 deep variety circa 2000 - 2004 with 1 truly elite player. They still didn't win (we all know the reasons). The Kings of today already have that 1 elite player that all the lottery teams hope to get each and every year even though they aren't always available. If we dump that player, odds are that the best you can hope to be is like the teams Karl had in Denver, which had a really low ceiling. Those teams lost in the 1st round 8 of 9 appearances.
Don't get me wrong, I'm tired of the playoff drought and would love to see this team get there really soon. But when they do finally get there, I'd like them to be tending upward and capable of developing a team that can make deep runs because that team is also built for playoff basketball. Having at least 1 elite, top level player is a large step towards accomplishing just that.
To take that step, you have to have 1-2 elite players (typically 2) or go 8-9 deep with really, really good players (think Spurs of the last 6-7 years). The Kings were the 8-9 deep variety circa 2000 - 2004 with 1 truly elite player. They still didn't win (we all know the reasons). The Kings of today already have that 1 elite player that all the lottery teams hope to get each and every year even though they aren't always available. If we dump that player, odds are that the best you can hope to be is like the teams Karl had in Denver, which had a really low ceiling. Those teams lost in the 1st round 8 of 9 appearances.
Don't get me wrong, I'm tired of the playoff drought and would love to see this team get there really soon. But when they do finally get there, I'd like them to be tending upward and capable of developing a team that can make deep runs because that team is also built for playoff basketball. Having at least 1 elite, top level player is a large step towards accomplishing just that.
I had him on my radar last year and he has really improved his game this season, especially offensively. He can run a pick and roll and has a raw ability to make shots of the dribble now. Personally I would probably take him over Hield and Murray because I think he has the most upside when you factor in physical tools and defense. But I could see Vlade going with the more "ready" prospect in Hield or with another Wildcat in Murray.
Well your preaching to the choir. I've always felt that to build a team right, it needs to built with the intention of winning a championship. Obviously your not going to do that overnight, unless your real damm lucky. Hopefully, as the building blocks fall into place, you start making the playoffs and eventually work your way up the food chain. The trick of course is not to shoot all your bullets right away. You have to flexable so your able to make changes along the way, and that's the hard part. Make the wrong change, and it sets you back again.
It all starts at the top. If we believe that Vlade is the man for the job, then we have to be patient and let him do his job. To expect it to happen in one season is just wishful thinking. Unfortunately, because of Cousins situation, we are on a time table whether we like it or not. I don't envy Vlade the job.
It all starts at the top. If we believe that Vlade is the man for the job, then we have to be patient and let him do his job. To expect it to happen in one season is just wishful thinking. Unfortunately, because of Cousins situation, we are on a time table whether we like it or not. I don't envy Vlade the job.
The more I'm seeing Buddy Hield, the more I'm liking him. At 6-4 1/2, he supposedly undersized for a SG. But he's a solid 215 lbs and has a decent wingspan. I don't see him being any smaller than Mitch Richmond, who turned out a pretty nice career playing the same position. Hield is athletic and can shoot the heck out of the ball. Best of all, he's a 4 yr college player a la Willie Cauley-Stein and might be able to come out strong his rookie season. He's really improved the past 2 seasons. I think he's definitely a player the Kings should strongly consider if they keep their draft pick.
This would be extremely hard. Dunn gives us the defensive PG we've been looking for. They're both relatively the same age, however, Dunn is still really raw.
How many raw 22yearold prospects do you know? It makes me question his development moving forward. He's improved as a shooter, but I wouldn't count on him coming into the NBA and shooting 30% his 1st year. He's a good playmaker, but shows poor decision making at times. Too many turnovers was his problem last year, and it's his problem this year. Assist/to ratio is worse this year. There just aren't really that many raw 22yearold prospects. Am I the only one with this question mark? With someone as old as Dunn, you'd think he'd be more polished. edit: Should also note Dunn has had 2 shoulder injuries before.
I wish he wasn't so old.......
Hield is an interesting player, but there are questions on how his offensive game will translate to the next level. We've seen so many guys who've had high usage with great scoring in college, but are unable to translate it into the NBA. However, with Hield, he's good as an off-ball player. The biggest thing with him is his ceiling and floor. His ceiling can be as high as someone like CJ McCollum, or as low as Jason Kapono.. That's a huge area. If it turns out that his lateral and athleticism isn't good enough for the NBA, he may struggle to create on his own like he did in college...limiting him to an off-ball player only. It might also limit his ability to fight over screens and get open. He's also 22.
I guess it would also depend on whether or not we retain Cousins. If we do, it's harder to justify pairing him with a PG that isn't a good shooter, and can't play off the ball. YES, I know it worked with Rondo, but if we're serious about building around Cousins... we need to actually build around him with players that fit his style.
I don't think Dunn fits. PGs that would fit are Demetirus Jackson, Wade Baldwin, and Melo Trimble.
We can't continue to tell Cuz that we're going to build around him, then draft a PG that can't shoot well, and needs the ball to be effective. I'm all about BPA, and in this case, they're almost equal to me.
How many raw 22yearold prospects do you know? It makes me question his development moving forward. He's improved as a shooter, but I wouldn't count on him coming into the NBA and shooting 30% his 1st year. He's a good playmaker, but shows poor decision making at times. Too many turnovers was his problem last year, and it's his problem this year. Assist/to ratio is worse this year. There just aren't really that many raw 22yearold prospects. Am I the only one with this question mark? With someone as old as Dunn, you'd think he'd be more polished. edit: Should also note Dunn has had 2 shoulder injuries before.
I wish he wasn't so old.......
Hield is an interesting player, but there are questions on how his offensive game will translate to the next level. We've seen so many guys who've had high usage with great scoring in college, but are unable to translate it into the NBA. However, with Hield, he's good as an off-ball player. The biggest thing with him is his ceiling and floor. His ceiling can be as high as someone like CJ McCollum, or as low as Jason Kapono.. That's a huge area. If it turns out that his lateral and athleticism isn't good enough for the NBA, he may struggle to create on his own like he did in college...limiting him to an off-ball player only. It might also limit his ability to fight over screens and get open. He's also 22.
I guess it would also depend on whether or not we retain Cousins. If we do, it's harder to justify pairing him with a PG that isn't a good shooter, and can't play off the ball. YES, I know it worked with Rondo, but if we're serious about building around Cousins... we need to actually build around him with players that fit his style.
I don't think Dunn fits. PGs that would fit are Demetirus Jackson, Wade Baldwin, and Melo Trimble.
We can't continue to tell Cuz that we're going to build around him, then draft a PG that can't shoot well, and needs the ball to be effective. I'm all about BPA, and in this case, they're almost equal to me.
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Give me Hield all day. I love Dunn as well, but with the way the nba is transitioning to primarily a 3 pointer/ perimeter focused offense we can't afford to pass up a guy with such a fast release who has shown the ability to pull up from way behind the 3 point line and also hit the near impossible transition 3. The only thing that makes me nervous is our recent track record with shooting guards, however neither Stauskas or McLemore had the skill set Hield does. Also in the event that we are in the lottery next year, which I'm just going to assume we will be, 6 of the top 10 prospects right now are point guards. We can snag one next year and use the more than competent Darren Collison as our starting point guard for next season, assuming Rondo leaves.
Having a guy with the shooting ability of Hield and the defensive ceiling of WCS are great building blocks should we look to move on from Cousins.
Having a guy with the shooting ability of Hield and the defensive ceiling of WCS are great building blocks should we look to move on from Cousins.
For the record, I never compared Buddy Hield to Jimmer Fredette. I did say that the way so many Kings fans have already penciled him into their projected starting lineups for next year reminds me of the way Jimmer was anointed as the best shooter of his generation before he played a single game in the NBA. None of these prospects are sure things. And I think it's always a mistake to obsess over specific positions more than individual talent. Obviously we need a SG but it's not all that we need and I'd much rather have an All-Star PF or SF out of this draft than a league average SG. That's just a hypothetical by the way, not an indictment of specific players. It seems everything I say about the draft is going to be misinterpreted so I'm trying to choose my words carefully.
This topic came up in the context of one of the game threads last week and I posted a link to a half dozen complete games of Timothe Luwawu on Youtube for anyone who's interested. Here's that link again since it probably won't get noticed in the Pelicans game thread. People were complaining last year that they don't know enough about Emmanuel Mudiay so here's your chance to get started early this year. There are links on the side to related videos, but it's probably easier just to run a search. The team Luwawu is on is called Mega Leks and he wears #23. He's got some developing to do, especially with his ball-handling and pull-up jumper, but there's plenty to like as well. Great size and athleticism even by NBA standards, he's very hard to stop driving to the basket, and he's an aggressive defender who moves his feet well. I don't know that he's worth a top 10 pick right now because he's still got so much to work on, but I'd keep watching him. What he offers more than the higher-profile SG prospects ranked above him is physical dominance at his position and the potential to become not just a good defender but a legit defensive stopper.
This topic came up in the context of one of the game threads last week and I posted a link to a half dozen complete games of Timothe Luwawu on Youtube for anyone who's interested. Here's that link again since it probably won't get noticed in the Pelicans game thread. People were complaining last year that they don't know enough about Emmanuel Mudiay so here's your chance to get started early this year. There are links on the side to related videos, but it's probably easier just to run a search. The team Luwawu is on is called Mega Leks and he wears #23. He's got some developing to do, especially with his ball-handling and pull-up jumper, but there's plenty to like as well. Great size and athleticism even by NBA standards, he's very hard to stop driving to the basket, and he's an aggressive defender who moves his feet well. I don't know that he's worth a top 10 pick right now because he's still got so much to work on, but I'd keep watching him. What he offers more than the higher-profile SG prospects ranked above him is physical dominance at his position and the potential to become not just a good defender but a legit defensive stopper.
When did 6'5" become undersized for an NBA SG? I'm not sure, but I would speculate that the perception started to change with Michael Jordan in the late 80s.
As of 2011, average height for an NBA SG was 6' 6". In last year's draft, the average height of all the SGs drafted was 6' 5.6". We don't have official measurements yet for Buddy Hield, but considering that unofficial measurements tend to be generous 90% of the time, I would think 6'4.5" is probably a best-case scenario. And that's a little bit undersized for an NBA SG. It's not like that negates everything else he's accomplished. You can argue whether it actually matters -- and I'd prefer those arguments involve case studies of past prospects below and above the "average height" line and whether their height was a problem or not -- but it's a verifiable fact (based on currently available data anyway) that Buddy Hield is below average height for an NBA SG. Ben McLemore is as well.
As of 2011, average height for an NBA SG was 6' 6". In last year's draft, the average height of all the SGs drafted was 6' 5.6". We don't have official measurements yet for Buddy Hield, but considering that unofficial measurements tend to be generous 90% of the time, I would think 6'4.5" is probably a best-case scenario. And that's a little bit undersized for an NBA SG. It's not like that negates everything else he's accomplished. You can argue whether it actually matters -- and I'd prefer those arguments involve case studies of past prospects below and above the "average height" line and whether their height was a problem or not -- but it's a verifiable fact (based on currently available data anyway) that Buddy Hield is below average height for an NBA SG. Ben McLemore is as well.
I'm not sure what your talking about. First, Dunn will be gone when we pick unless we move up in the draft. However, he's the best all around PG in college. His three point shot has improved every year in college. I think he shot just under 38% this season. His assist to turnover ratio is just over two to one, but he does average over 6 assists a game. He's a very good defender ans has excellent size for the position. Why you don't think he's a good fit is beyond me. Everything you brought up about Hield you could say about every player coming out of college. Until a player is actually in the NBA, we don't know how his game will translate. But in my opinion, there are no holes in Hield's offensive game. He has no problem creating his own shot. he can hit shots coming off screens. He's an excellent spot up shooter. He has a fall away 10 to 12 footer. He has floaters, and he can finish at the basket. He a good passer for a SG, and has brought the ball up for Oklahoma. My only worry is that he won't be there when we pick.
Personally, it doesn't matter to me. Would I take C.J. McCollum at 6'3" on my team? You bet. Nik Stauskas was just a tad over 6'6", but his wingspan was also around 6'6". My guess is that Hield has a better standing reach than Stauskas. We could quible about this all night long but to me it comes down to talent. One thing I do know, is that defensively I'd rather have Collison and Hield out there than Rondo and Collison.
Jason Kapono? cmon now. That's not even close to a comparison for what I see out of the floor for Hield.
I love players like Hield because they come into the NBA with an already defined and polished all-around skill-set. There's nothing that I've seen in his offensive game that I would call a "weakness". He's an excellent ball-handler, he's drastically improved his playmaking this season, and he can get to the rim and draw fouls. And of course, he's throwing up some Steph Curry like efficiency and shooting numbers considering his 30% USG rate this year.
I don't know if you saw the KU Oklahoma game, but I don't know how you could have concerns about his ability to create or his athleticism after it. KU was playing some seriously great defense on Hield and he just found ways to make tough shot after tough shot over them from literally all over the court. In a hostile environment no less.
I love players like Hield because they come into the NBA with an already defined and polished all-around skill-set. There's nothing that I've seen in his offensive game that I would call a "weakness". He's an excellent ball-handler, he's drastically improved his playmaking this season, and he can get to the rim and draw fouls. And of course, he's throwing up some Steph Curry like efficiency and shooting numbers considering his 30% USG rate this year.
I don't know if you saw the KU Oklahoma game, but I don't know how you could have concerns about his ability to create or his athleticism after it. KU was playing some seriously great defense on Hield and he just found ways to make tough shot after tough shot over them from literally all over the court. In a hostile environment no less.
Thanks for taking the time to post it here again. If you ask me Luwawu is definitely worth a top ten pick. 6'7'' defensive wings with a huge wingspan that can handle enough for a pick&roll, pass and defend as well as he can and are able to hit an open 3pointer are really rare and valuable.
He turns 21 in May, but until last year he played in the second frech league so you could argue that this is the first season that he spent with a professional team and coaching stuff etc. And his improvement this season especially on offense is tremendous. So I think he will improve even more as soon as he comes to the NBA.
He turns 21 in May, but until last year he played in the second frech league so you could argue that this is the first season that he spent with a professional team and coaching stuff etc. And his improvement this season especially on offense is tremendous. So I think he will improve even more as soon as he comes to the NBA.
My main problems are with Dunn's offensive game. Despite his numbers, I don't think anyone can say shooting is a strength for him. Last year he shot 35.1% from 3pt and this year it's 37.2%. However, his FT% falls right under short of 70%. On 2pt jumpers, he only converts 30%. So there are inconsistencies with his shooting.
His usage is high like a lot of college players, at 28%. However, his TOV% is higher than most at 18.8. Usage 28%, TOV 18.8%(16.4pts-6.2asts). Compare this to Kay Felder who has 31% usage and 14% TOV(24pts-9asts). Yes, his competition doesn't stack up against Dunn's, so let's look at Valentine: Usage 28.4% 14.8% TOV (19pts-7.8asts). My numbers are here to show how turnover prone he can be. It's a reflective of his rawness at 22yearsold. He's not much of an off-ball player at this stage, which would conflict for Cousins. I think he can play off-ball, but that's not his strength. He's more of a Wall/Rondo. There's even a problem with the Wall/Rondo comparison, because he's nowhere near the playmaker they were. So I'm more inclined to compare his overall game to Elfrid Payton, but with much better shooting. It's a decent comp, but Payton came into the NBA at 20.
Dunn doesn't fit next to Cousins. I think he needs a PG who can shoot better and play off-ball. I wish Dunn was more of a consistent shooter this year.
Being worried that a 22yearold senior game won't translate into the NBA is not something new. I think that's a very fair concern to raise about Hield. He's improved in almost every single aspect of his game this year. The main question is can he transfer the entirety to the pros? Let's say his play with the ball doesn't translate immediately, so we make him an off-ball player. Can he contribute right away since he's already 22? That's unknown. We thought Ben and Nik would contribute immediately as shooters even if they gave us nothing else...32% isn't very good.
These are just my main concerns with both players. I was pointing out that each one has flaws..and each one has a tradeoff.
Both are already 22, and with Dunn, you question his shooting. With Hield, you question how much of his game is translatable.
His usage is high like a lot of college players, at 28%. However, his TOV% is higher than most at 18.8. Usage 28%, TOV 18.8%(16.4pts-6.2asts). Compare this to Kay Felder who has 31% usage and 14% TOV(24pts-9asts). Yes, his competition doesn't stack up against Dunn's, so let's look at Valentine: Usage 28.4% 14.8% TOV (19pts-7.8asts). My numbers are here to show how turnover prone he can be. It's a reflective of his rawness at 22yearsold. He's not much of an off-ball player at this stage, which would conflict for Cousins. I think he can play off-ball, but that's not his strength. He's more of a Wall/Rondo. There's even a problem with the Wall/Rondo comparison, because he's nowhere near the playmaker they were. So I'm more inclined to compare his overall game to Elfrid Payton, but with much better shooting. It's a decent comp, but Payton came into the NBA at 20.
Dunn doesn't fit next to Cousins. I think he needs a PG who can shoot better and play off-ball. I wish Dunn was more of a consistent shooter this year.
Being worried that a 22yearold senior game won't translate into the NBA is not something new. I think that's a very fair concern to raise about Hield. He's improved in almost every single aspect of his game this year. The main question is can he transfer the entirety to the pros? Let's say his play with the ball doesn't translate immediately, so we make him an off-ball player. Can he contribute right away since he's already 22? That's unknown. We thought Ben and Nik would contribute immediately as shooters even if they gave us nothing else...32% isn't very good.
These are just my main concerns with both players. I was pointing out that each one has flaws..and each one has a tradeoff.
Both are already 22, and with Dunn, you question his shooting. With Hield, you question how much of his game is translatable.
College game does not directly transfer into the NBA. I think that's a fair question to raise around him. Can his college game translate into the NBA?
I've seen Hield struggle in his last game, then come back for 20pts. Hield has does it all this season, but it's really down to how his game translates into the NBA.
Fun fact: we saw Jimmer dominate in March...
I've seen Hield struggle in his last game, then come back for 20pts. Hield has does it all this season, but it's really down to how his game translates into the NBA.
Fun fact: we saw Jimmer dominate in March...
I always think it's strange that we say a 22 year old doesn't have potential but a 20 year old does.
Hield has done exactly what you'd want - he's improved every year. It makes me feel like his work ethic isn't a question mark and you know you'll get a guy who will continue improving his game.
I like Dunn a lot. He should be a very good PG. Good size with nice tools, a good playmaker etc. But his shooting is a concern as is his trouble finishing at the rim. He's not a freak athlete like Westbrook or Wall. And I'm not sure he's an ideal fit with Cuz.
Unless the King jump up I think Dunn is gone. If he's there it's a bit of dilemma. Hield is a better fit and more of a sure thing. Dunn has more talent.
A couple guys I like in the middle of the first are Valentine (only if Rondo is gone) and Baldwin. I wonder what Gay might fetch in trade in terms of a player and a pick?
Hield has done exactly what you'd want - he's improved every year. It makes me feel like his work ethic isn't a question mark and you know you'll get a guy who will continue improving his game.
I like Dunn a lot. He should be a very good PG. Good size with nice tools, a good playmaker etc. But his shooting is a concern as is his trouble finishing at the rim. He's not a freak athlete like Westbrook or Wall. And I'm not sure he's an ideal fit with Cuz.
Unless the King jump up I think Dunn is gone. If he's there it's a bit of dilemma. Hield is a better fit and more of a sure thing. Dunn has more talent.
A couple guys I like in the middle of the first are Valentine (only if Rondo is gone) and Baldwin. I wonder what Gay might fetch in trade in terms of a player and a pick?
Look, I'm not going to argue about Dunn because he won't be there when we pick. However, as parting note, you could say everything about Wall that your saying about Dunn, and he played pretty well next to Cousins at Kentucky. When it comes to Hield, I'm just clueless with your argument. Were not talking about Jimmer Fredette here. His is a player that has no trouble creating his own shot. He has very good handles, and can get to the basket. He has every mid-range shot in the book at his disposal. You say he improved every year almost like it's a millstone around his neck. He didn't just improve every year, but he's shooting almost 50% from the floor oveall, and 44% from the three. And I might add that large number of those shots were highly contested shots.
This is a player that has done everything he supposed to do, and your going out of your way to be critical of him. Why???????? You say you don't know how his game will translate to the NBA? I could say that about every single player in the draft. So what? What your looking for is evidence that a player will be a solid player at the next level, and I honestly don't know what else Hield can do to convince you, unless you don't want to be convinced. Lets look at the comparisons between the two next best SG's in the draft.
I rally like what Jamal Murray has done this year, but he can't defend as well as Hield. Some scouts have said he can't defend at all. I think that's a little harsh, but there's no doubt that Hield is a far better defender. Murray struggles to create his own shot. Kentucky sometimes runs double and triple screens to free him up. He doesn't shoot the ball as well off the dribble as he does in a spot up. One of the major improvements in Hield's game is shot selection, and squaring up off the dribble. His improvements in that area have been dramatic. The one thing that Murray has going for him is that he's a freshman. But your hoping that in a couple of years that Murray will be at the same level that Hield is right now. And maybe he will be, but at the end of the day, Hield will still be the better defender and the better athlete, and he's at the level right now, not two years from now.
To be honest, if I don't take Hield and my choice is between Valentine and Murray, I would probably take Valentine. He's the best passer in the group, and his court vision is off the charts as well as his BBIQ. He's a terrific shooter as well. Not as good as Hield, but certainly good enough when you consider his other attributes. He also has good size for the position of either SG or PG. Hield is a good passer, but Valentine is in another world. Both guys are terrific competitors and refuse to lose. As is Murray, I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression. Where Hield trumps Valentine is on the defensive side of the ball. Hield is the best defender of the three. I don't know how much that matters to you, but it matters to me. Hield, like Valentine is the leader of his team. He's the glue guy on that Oklahoma team.
I won't complain about drafting any of these three guys, and if Hield keeps playing like he has of late, he might play his way into the top five. He literally exploded in the second half of the last game to win it for Oklahoma. The NBA is turning into a guards league, and no, we have no guarantees on any player in the draft, but it's probably a good bet to take someone that's excelled at the college level, and Hield has. Not sure what else you would want from him.
This is a player that has done everything he supposed to do, and your going out of your way to be critical of him. Why???????? You say you don't know how his game will translate to the NBA? I could say that about every single player in the draft. So what? What your looking for is evidence that a player will be a solid player at the next level, and I honestly don't know what else Hield can do to convince you, unless you don't want to be convinced. Lets look at the comparisons between the two next best SG's in the draft.
I rally like what Jamal Murray has done this year, but he can't defend as well as Hield. Some scouts have said he can't defend at all. I think that's a little harsh, but there's no doubt that Hield is a far better defender. Murray struggles to create his own shot. Kentucky sometimes runs double and triple screens to free him up. He doesn't shoot the ball as well off the dribble as he does in a spot up. One of the major improvements in Hield's game is shot selection, and squaring up off the dribble. His improvements in that area have been dramatic. The one thing that Murray has going for him is that he's a freshman. But your hoping that in a couple of years that Murray will be at the same level that Hield is right now. And maybe he will be, but at the end of the day, Hield will still be the better defender and the better athlete, and he's at the level right now, not two years from now.
To be honest, if I don't take Hield and my choice is between Valentine and Murray, I would probably take Valentine. He's the best passer in the group, and his court vision is off the charts as well as his BBIQ. He's a terrific shooter as well. Not as good as Hield, but certainly good enough when you consider his other attributes. He also has good size for the position of either SG or PG. Hield is a good passer, but Valentine is in another world. Both guys are terrific competitors and refuse to lose. As is Murray, I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression. Where Hield trumps Valentine is on the defensive side of the ball. Hield is the best defender of the three. I don't know how much that matters to you, but it matters to me. Hield, like Valentine is the leader of his team. He's the glue guy on that Oklahoma team.
I won't complain about drafting any of these three guys, and if Hield keeps playing like he has of late, he might play his way into the top five. He literally exploded in the second half of the last game to win it for Oklahoma. The NBA is turning into a guards league, and no, we have no guarantees on any player in the draft, but it's probably a good bet to take someone that's excelled at the college level, and Hield has. Not sure what else you would want from him.
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Other than the fact that Hield is a far superior athlete, a much better ball-handler, and isn't a 6'1 shooting guard, he and Jimmer have a lot in common 
Jimmer's problem was never a lack of skill. But 6'1 guards with below average athleticism and weak handles rarely make it in the NBA
Again, what makes you think he can't transfer his game to the NBA? He's an oustanding spot-up shooter. He can shoot off his own bounce, a skill that's so crucial for today's guards. He can create and get to the rim. He's an oustanding athlete. His efficiency this season is absolutely mind-boggling considering the fact that every team knows they have to stop him. The fact that he's a senior is only going to help us because he'll go a lot further down in the draft than he should be.
Jimmer's problem was never a lack of skill. But 6'1 guards with below average athleticism and weak handles rarely make it in the NBA
Again, what makes you think he can't transfer his game to the NBA? He's an oustanding spot-up shooter. He can shoot off his own bounce, a skill that's so crucial for today's guards. He can create and get to the rim. He's an oustanding athlete. His efficiency this season is absolutely mind-boggling considering the fact that every team knows they have to stop him. The fact that he's a senior is only going to help us because he'll go a lot further down in the draft than he should be.
I think shot selection is a big issue with Dunn. When open, and not forcing up crazy shots, he's a good shooter. His problem, is that other than a couple of other players on that Providence team, he's been required to carry a large part of the offensive load. I'd like to see him on a team where he's the fourth or fifth option. He's a very good passer with good court vision, and he's an excellent defender. I've reached a point where I think Cuz is so talented, that he can play within just about any system with any PG. I don't think it's fair to compare anyone with Rondo because he's a species of his own. If I had to choose between Dunn and Hield, which could happen, even though not likely, I think I would take Hield.
Why you ask? Because I think he's a perfect fit next to Cousins, and a perfect fit for the team. If Rondo goes, we still have Collison, who I like a lot, and who has been maybe the most consistent player on the team this year. He's a decent to good defender depending on who he has to guard, and his shooting has been outstanding this season. No guarantee's of course. You never know how someone is going to turn out until they're here. If we do draft Hield or any young player, I hope we hire a coach that will give them an opportunity to show what they can do.
I literally can't wait for Karl to be fired. How many minutes did Willie get last night? How many minutes did Curry get in the last two games. Nice to see Moreland get out there so we can see if we want to keep him or not. Oh wait, Karl says, maybe, with emphasis on maybe, they'll get more time in april. How many games to we have in april? 7, maybe 8 or 9? Whoopie!!!!!! The only thing Karl cares about right now is adding to his win list. Someone please fire him before he does anymore damage.
Why you ask? Because I think he's a perfect fit next to Cousins, and a perfect fit for the team. If Rondo goes, we still have Collison, who I like a lot, and who has been maybe the most consistent player on the team this year. He's a decent to good defender depending on who he has to guard, and his shooting has been outstanding this season. No guarantee's of course. You never know how someone is going to turn out until they're here. If we do draft Hield or any young player, I hope we hire a coach that will give them an opportunity to show what they can do.
I literally can't wait for Karl to be fired. How many minutes did Willie get last night? How many minutes did Curry get in the last two games. Nice to see Moreland get out there so we can see if we want to keep him or not. Oh wait, Karl says, maybe, with emphasis on maybe, they'll get more time in april. How many games to we have in april? 7, maybe 8 or 9? Whoopie!!!!!! The only thing Karl cares about right now is adding to his win list. Someone please fire him before he does anymore damage.
So if Cousins struggles in the first half of a game and then comes back and scores 20 or 25 points in the second half, that doesn't count? Your making no sense, and no, Hield hasn't done that all year. I've watched almost every game he's played this year, so stop making up stuff!!!!!! If you have actually watched Hield play, and you then make the Jimmer comparison, then you've lost all credibility with me. They are nothing alike, other than both are terrific shooters. Hield is twice the athlete Jimmer is. He's an excellent ballhandler, something that Jimmer struggled with. He easily creates his own shot, something Jimmer struggled with. he's at least two inches taller. Hield is know for being a good defender at the college level, where Jimmer wasn't even asked to play defense at BYU. How in god's name can you make that comparison, unless for some reason unknown to me, you don't like Hield.
To say you don't know how his game will translate to the NBA is something I could say about every single player in this draft. Look, Hield could end up being a bust, but so could Simmons, Ingram, Brown etc. And to be honest, right now, Hield looks like a better player on paper than any of them. The difference is, all three of them are freshman and Hield is a senior. What your hoping for is that one of those three will turn out to be as good, or better than Hield is right now. If your looking for a player that can step right in and help right away, then Hield is probably closer to that than any of the other three. And having said that, there are no guarantee's. You make your best guess, and then you live with it. Personally, I'll go with someone that's already proven he's better than anyone else at the level he's been playing at.
To say you don't know how his game will translate to the NBA is something I could say about every single player in this draft. Look, Hield could end up being a bust, but so could Simmons, Ingram, Brown etc. And to be honest, right now, Hield looks like a better player on paper than any of them. The difference is, all three of them are freshman and Hield is a senior. What your hoping for is that one of those three will turn out to be as good, or better than Hield is right now. If your looking for a player that can step right in and help right away, then Hield is probably closer to that than any of the other three. And having said that, there are no guarantee's. You make your best guess, and then you live with it. Personally, I'll go with someone that's already proven he's better than anyone else at the level he's been playing at.
I think we tend to think 20yearolds have more potential for growth left than 22yearolds. There's this extremely rare case where there's a raw 22yearold player with a big upside. For reference, the only other 22yearold+ that most sites have as their top 30 prospects are Hield and Valentine. Both of whom are already polished.
When you step back and realize that Dunn is a year older than Giannis..it really blows your mind away.
I think they could both be there when the Kings draft, but who knows? The Kings are currently 7th, and there are only 3 teams in front of us who would draft a guard. Celtics, Timberwolves and Pelicans. I'm not sure that the Celtics draft another guard since they have IT-Bradley-Smart..and they just drafted Rozier-Hunter in the 1st last year. I was surprised when they took Rozier, so I guess I could see them adding more shooting? Minnesota has a weird duo with Rubio-LaVine. Rubio is a great leader and playmaker, but his shot is broken. LaVine is a PG who doesn't have the smarts to be one, so he plays SG. Do they draft a PG to replace Rubio? Or do they draft a real SG? Pelicans will need a SG because Gordon will probably hit FA, however they might draft a PG because of Holiday's history.
Assuming the order stays the same, I think one of Hield, Dunn, or Murray falls.
Baja, I'm not really arguing that Hield is going to be a bust. Less than a month into the season, I said Hield should be a lotto pick when places like DX had him in their 2nd round. I was just pointing out the flaws that both players have. My main problem with him isn't really a direct problem with him...it's just how common we've seen older players bust because in college, they've had a high usage with the team catered around them. This has resulted in the inability to adapt to an NBA role or adjust to the speed of it. HOWEVER, I counter my own point with how great of an off-ball player Hield is. Question is, can he do all of what he did in college, in the pros? That's a fair question to ask to all seniors, and it's not really a knock on Hield. He already has age going against him here. 22
Just look at all the Seniors drafted in the 1st round in the past few years 5 years not including 2015.
There's always a risk involved in drafting players, but I think there's a bigger risk in drafting seniors.
When you step back and realize that Dunn is a year older than Giannis..it really blows your mind away.
I think they could both be there when the Kings draft, but who knows? The Kings are currently 7th, and there are only 3 teams in front of us who would draft a guard. Celtics, Timberwolves and Pelicans. I'm not sure that the Celtics draft another guard since they have IT-Bradley-Smart..and they just drafted Rozier-Hunter in the 1st last year. I was surprised when they took Rozier, so I guess I could see them adding more shooting? Minnesota has a weird duo with Rubio-LaVine. Rubio is a great leader and playmaker, but his shot is broken. LaVine is a PG who doesn't have the smarts to be one, so he plays SG. Do they draft a PG to replace Rubio? Or do they draft a real SG? Pelicans will need a SG because Gordon will probably hit FA, however they might draft a PG because of Holiday's history.
Assuming the order stays the same, I think one of Hield, Dunn, or Murray falls.
Baja, I'm not really arguing that Hield is going to be a bust. Less than a month into the season, I said Hield should be a lotto pick when places like DX had him in their 2nd round. I was just pointing out the flaws that both players have. My main problem with him isn't really a direct problem with him...it's just how common we've seen older players bust because in college, they've had a high usage with the team catered around them. This has resulted in the inability to adapt to an NBA role or adjust to the speed of it. HOWEVER, I counter my own point with how great of an off-ball player Hield is. Question is, can he do all of what he did in college, in the pros? That's a fair question to ask to all seniors, and it's not really a knock on Hield. He already has age going against him here. 22
Just look at all the Seniors drafted in the 1st round in the past few years 5 years not including 2015.
- Doug McDermott
- Adreian Payne
- Shabazz Napier
- CJ McCollum
- Josh Huestis
- CJ Wilcox
- Damian Lillard
- Andrew Nicholson
- Miles Plumlee
- Arnett Moultrie
- Fetus Ezeli
- Jimmer Fredette
- Nolan Smith
- MarShon Brooks
- JuJuan Johnson
There's always a risk involved in drafting players, but I think there's a bigger risk in drafting seniors.
When did I say Hield's game didn't count? I was responding to whether or not I've watched him dominate against good defenses, and yes I did. In his last game, I watched him have a terrible 1st half, then come back with a dominant performance in the 2nd half. I watched him step up to the plate and completely take over the game. He took whatever the defense gave to him, and threw it in the trash. That's how good he can be.
I did not compare Hield to Jimmer.
I'm saying we've seen Jimmer make tough shot after tough shot in March. I'm not comparing the two players, I'm saying both were very dominant against elite college defenses. We've seen Jimmer shine in hostile environments. We've seen lots of players shine.
But, I want to see how Hield responds to that same defense in the NBA.
Edit: Jimmer is no Hield... that is so insulting in so many ways! Hell, I hate the Stauskas=Jimmer comparison, but that's 100x closer than Hield to Jimmer.
I did not compare Hield to Jimmer.
I'm saying we've seen Jimmer make tough shot after tough shot in March. I'm not comparing the two players, I'm saying both were very dominant against elite college defenses. We've seen Jimmer shine in hostile environments. We've seen lots of players shine.
But, I want to see how Hield responds to that same defense in the NBA.
Edit: Jimmer is no Hield... that is so insulting in so many ways! Hell, I hate the Stauskas=Jimmer comparison, but that's 100x closer than Hield to Jimmer.
Not to quibble but Moultrie was a junior wasn't he? Zeller was a senior in that draft and I'd say he's carved out a role. And, I certainly wanted CJ McCollum more than I wanted the significantly younger and more potential filled Ben McLemore. Of course that was when I thought the Kings would resign Evans and CJ was a better fit, but I digress.
Yes, I definitely agree that a freshman or sophomore has more potential for growth than a senior, but I think sometimes people (not pointing at you in particular) go overboard in thinking that means a 22 or 23 year old won't continue to improve. And I think the perception is skewed a bit by the fact that very few guys with the talent to leave early stick around.
Outside of rare cases like Tim Duncan who would've been the #1 pick after his junior year and probably after his sophomore year too, guys leave school as soon as they think they have a chance to be drafted high enough. Going back to school is seen as a risk. Just look at Michael Finley who would have gone much higher had he come out as a junior. So while a guy like Brandon Ingram would probably be a much better player if he stayed another two years at Duke, he won't because he's already a top 2 draft pick and there's no reason to jeopardize that.
So if any of this rambling is making sense I guess what I'm getting at is that it isn't being a senior necessarily that leads to a lower upside etc but the fact that those players didn't have enough physical tools or and advanced enough game to allow them to leave early. Sometimes it's late bloomers (Scottie Pippen) and/or lightly recruited guys who don't get enough shine because they play for smaller schools against lesser competition which forces them to stay in school longer and prove themselves more/develop enough skills that they can be seen as NBA caliber guys.
I don't think Hield has star potential but I like that he's worked on his weaknesses and added to his game each year. I'd put money on him having a better pro career than the last two SGs drafted by the Kings.
Yes, I definitely agree that a freshman or sophomore has more potential for growth than a senior, but I think sometimes people (not pointing at you in particular) go overboard in thinking that means a 22 or 23 year old won't continue to improve. And I think the perception is skewed a bit by the fact that very few guys with the talent to leave early stick around.
Outside of rare cases like Tim Duncan who would've been the #1 pick after his junior year and probably after his sophomore year too, guys leave school as soon as they think they have a chance to be drafted high enough. Going back to school is seen as a risk. Just look at Michael Finley who would have gone much higher had he come out as a junior. So while a guy like Brandon Ingram would probably be a much better player if he stayed another two years at Duke, he won't because he's already a top 2 draft pick and there's no reason to jeopardize that.
So if any of this rambling is making sense I guess what I'm getting at is that it isn't being a senior necessarily that leads to a lower upside etc but the fact that those players didn't have enough physical tools or and advanced enough game to allow them to leave early. Sometimes it's late bloomers (Scottie Pippen) and/or lightly recruited guys who don't get enough shine because they play for smaller schools against lesser competition which forces them to stay in school longer and prove themselves more/develop enough skills that they can be seen as NBA caliber guys.
I don't think Hield has star potential but I like that he's worked on his weaknesses and added to his game each year. I'd put money on him having a better pro career than the last two SGs drafted by the Kings.