Ben should ask for a trade

That bit about the minutes played is kind of critical though.

Peja got better his 3rd year from his second, but mostly we just made him a full time starter and the big minutes explained the big bump in scoring.

Per 36 minutes:
Peja 2nd year: 18.1pts 5.7reb 2.2ast
Peja 3rd year: 18.9pts 5.4reb 2.0ast

Ben 2nd year: 12.6pts 3.4reb 1.7ast

So with Ben to get any sort of Peja explosion its not just about giving him more minutes -- 2nd year Peja was far more prolific. With Ben you actually either need Ben to significantly improve again, or you need an entire team restructuring/offense built around him, which isn't going to happen. I still see no point in getting rid of him though. he;s one of 4 pieces that mostly make sense. I would however trade for a steady veteran shooter to pair with him though. He continues to struggle, I'd give the minutes to the steady guy. Just too much pressure being put on the Big 2 1/2 every night. Need trustworthy help.

Yes but...

Peja 2nd year: FGA per game 9.7.....FG% .448
Ben 2nd year: FGA per game 9.5.....FG% .448

The per36 numbers don't mean a whole lot actually when they're both taking the same number of shots. Ben may be on the floor a lot more in his 2nd year than Peja was, but it's not like he's getting substantially more looks and missing them. Their FG% and shot attempts per game are nearly identical. Also, while Ben may currently be shooting 35% on threes for the season, he's up to 41% now in his last five games and his season average was sitting at 42% at the end of December so there's still a decent chance (with 2 1/2 months left in the season) he ends up having a better overall shooting season than Peja did in year two.
 
So did Peja play this good of defense his second season? I don't like comparing players that played in a different time, under a different coach and with different players but I do get a bit sick of mostly everyone chirping Ben. Is Ben Peja, no. We don't want him to be, unless we have a team with assets like Weber, Bibby. Vlade, and Doug. We need Ben to be a game changer and with the pieces we have, taking the shots they do and not moving the ball like they do Ben will never be able to be a game changer. Tonight's game was a perfect example. Whether you like it or not the kid was stroking it and after the first quarter he had 3 shot attempts. A dunk, A three and a running jumper. You all want to talk about how Ben hasn't erupted for a huge game but when has he been given the chance? Because he took 11 shots 6 games ago that means we were really feeding him. Joke. If someone is actually a Ben fan then they will want him to be traded for his sake. If you are a true King's fan you should want to keep him but understand he can't be what you want him to be on this team. Funny how Green has revamped his career since joining the Spurs.....
 
So did Peja play this good of defense his second season? I don't like comparing players that played in a different time, under a different coach and with different players but I do get a bit sick of mostly everyone chirping Ben. Is Ben Peja, no. We don't want him to be, unless we have a team with assets like Weber, Bibby. Vlade, and Doug. We need Ben to be a game changer and with the pieces we have, taking the shots they do and not moving the ball like they do Ben will never be able to be a game changer. Tonight's game was a perfect example. Whether you like it or not the kid was stroking it and after the first quarter he had 3 shot attempts. A dunk, A three and a running jumper. You all want to talk about how Ben hasn't erupted for a huge game but when has he been given the chance? Because he took 11 shots 6 games ago that means we were really feeding him. Joke. If someone is actually a Ben fan then they will want him to be traded for his sake. If you are a true King's fan you should want to keep him but understand he can't be what you want him to be on this team. Funny how Green has revamped his career since joining the Spurs.....

I don't get this line of thinking. We don't need to trade him to another team and let him become an All-Star somewhere else. He's got just as good of a chance at doing that for us as he does anyone else. Our current offense doesn't get Ben a lot of looks. That doesn't mean 3 or 4 years from now Ben can't be a 2nd or 3rd option for us. Rudy signed a 2 year extension with a player option for one more year. He could be gone by the time Ben's rookie contract expires. If Ben is ready for a more prominent role at that point, the team will be ready to give him one. He just needs to keep getting better, add nuances to his game every year, and maintain the commitment to defense he showed us early in the year whoever the new coach turns out to be. If he keeps after it, keeps working hard, and waits for his opportunity he could explode like Jimmy Butler did in his fourth season. If he's got that kind of potential in him (and we have seen some signs) I'd sure as hell rather he did that in a Kings' uniform than in someone else's (like Gerald Wallace or Hassan Whiteside).
 
I don't get this line of thinking. We don't need to trade him to another team and let him become an All-Star somewhere else. He's got just as good of a chance at doing that for us as he does anyone else. Our current offense doesn't get Ben a lot of looks. That doesn't mean 3 or 4 years from now Ben can't be a 2nd or 3rd option for us. Rudy signed a 2 year extension with a player option for one more year. He could be gone by the time Ben's rookie contract expires. If Ben is ready for a more prominent role at that point, the team will be ready to give him one. He just needs to keep getting better, add nuances to his game every year, and maintain the commitment to defense he showed us early in the year whoever the new coach turns out to be. If he keeps after it, keeps working hard, and waits for his opportunity he could explode like Jimmy Butler did in his fourth season. If he's got that kind of potential in him (and we have seen some signs) I'd sure as hell rather he did that in a Kings' uniform than in someone else's (like Gerald Wallace or Hassan Whiteside).

I agree with everything you have said. I just think Ben is ready now to make more of an impact and I don't think the higher ups are ready to get rid of Rudy to allow for Ben to get more shots and in more of an offensive flow....
 
I agree with everything you have said. I just think Ben is ready now to make more of an impact and I don't think the higher ups are ready to get rid of Rudy to allow for Ben to get more shots and in more of an offensive flow....

"Get rid of Rudy to allow for Ben to get more shots?" Seriously? Get rid of Rudy? You don't get rid of your second best offensive player. They are difficult to come by. We even got him at a reduced rate. There is no guarantee that Ben would be better than Rudy. The liklihood that Ben would eventually be better is very remote.
 
"Get rid of Rudy to allow for Ben to get more shots?" Seriously? Get rid of Rudy? You don't get rid of your second best offensive player. They are difficult to come by. We even got him at a reduced rate. There is no guarantee that Ben would be better than Rudy. The liklihood that Ben would eventually be better is very remote.
There's a perfectly reasonable argument that could be made that getting rid of Gay could make the team better (and it isn't, "Because lol Raptors," for the record). I wouldn't make it, and I probably wouldn't agree with it, but I can see an argument that could be made that isn't completely stupid and irresponsible.

Getting rid of Gay so that
Ben McLemore can shine is not that argument.
 
There's a perfectly reasonable argument that could be made that getting rid of Gay could make the team better (and it isn't, "Because lol Raptors," for the record). I wouldn't make it, and I probably wouldn't agree with it, but I can see an argument that could be made that isn't completely stupid and irresponsible.

Getting rid of Gay so that
Ben McLemore can shine is not that argument.

I'll bite. Having your number 1 and 2 best players as iso players in not effective if you want to be a passing team. That's not a knock ob Rudy. It's a roster vs style problem.

A 3 and D guy would work with a ISO heavy half court team. I think what some of us are arguing is that that would or could be a waste of Ben's potential.

Our roster doesn't jive with the system our GM is pushing. Even though these are his players. He picked them.
 
There's a perfectly reasonable argument that could be made that getting rid of Gay could make the team better (and it isn't, "Because lol Raptors," for the record). I wouldn't make it, and I probably wouldn't agree with it, but I can see an argument that could be made that isn't completely stupid and irresponsible.

Getting rid of Gay so that
Ben McLemore can shine is not that argument.
I'm someone who could make that argument. However, I won't.. at least not right now. However, I will say this.(Take it any way you want)I wouldn't mind if we traded Gay for a good starter and drafted a SF.
If Dragic became available and Suns wanted Gay, no reason to hesitate that.

I think Gay brings his positives and negatives to this team. Yesterday Ben had the hot hand.. remember what happened when Klay had the hot hand? They kept giving him the ball no matter what.. After Ben scored 13pts, both Collison and Cousins started ignoring him to get their own game going.

That's pretty selfish. I think this team just has one too many iso players. Not Rudy's fault, but Cousins is already a heavy ISO player. Not sure that it works when there's 2 players who excel in an iso heavy offense.
 
I could buy into the idea of trading Gay to bring back, say, a borderline All-Star point guard, and a '3 and D' small forward. That would achieve the goal of spacing the court for Cousins, by starting two shooters. Such a move would also move Collison to the bench, and hopefully, we could get rid of Sessions (sorry, Ray). But, from my point of view, that's still a move to upgrade at point guard and improve our shooting, not to create opportunities for McLemore.

Players like McLemore are two a penny in this league. You don't trade a player the likes of Rudy Gay for the benefit of a player the likes of Ben McLemore.
 
I agree with everything you have said. I just think Ben is ready now to make more of an impact and I don't think the higher ups are ready to get rid of Rudy to allow for Ben to get more shots and in more of an offensive flow....

I don't think the problem is Rudy. I think the problem is management and the coach. Rudy is a very good athlete, and a good passer. He changed his game when he came here at Malone's request, and he got better as a result. He's not a programmed robot with only one function. He's a thinking talented player, who is capable of playing more than one way. But someone has to ask him to change his game. More than that, someone has to lay out how he wants the team to play. If you send out Cousins and Gay, game after game, and call nothing but isolation plays for both of them, how is that their fault? I can't tell you what Gay is capable of until I see him being asked to play differently.

We have a head coach that is on the hot seat. He wants desperately to win. So the first thing he's going to do is cut Stauskas minutes. Coaches don't like rookies, they like veterans. The second thing he's going to do is ride his best players. It worked at Utah with Stockton and Malone, why not here? So you say, hey, he knows he's not going to be retained by the Kings, so why is he on the hot seat? He's looking at it as an audition for the rest of the league. If he can get the team to start winning, it looks good on his resume when he goes job hunting at the end of the season. He doesn't give a tinkers damm about the development of Stauskas or McLemore or probably anyone not named Cousins and Gay. And none of that is Cousins or Gay's fault.

Would I trade Gay? Maybe, but not because he needs to go in order for Ben to get better. That's ridiculous. You want Ben to get better, change coaches. The only reason I would trade Gay, is if someone made me an offer that I thought would make the team better overall. So to my mind, he's not untouchable, but it would take a very special offer. It would take a very good offer to pry Ben out of my hands as well. It's only his second year, and I see more and more glimpses of what he can be. If he continues to work hard, I think the kid can be a star someday. He has all the tools, he just has to keep adding to his skill level. My advice to him is to dedicate his entire summer to improving his ballhandling. If he can become an upper level ballhandler, the sky's the limit for him.
 
I'll bite. Having your number 1 and 2 best players as iso players in not effective if you want to be a passing team. That's not a knock ob Rudy. It's a roster vs style problem.

A 3 and D guy would work with a ISO heavy half court team. I think what some of us are arguing is that that would or could be a waste of Ben's potential.

Our roster doesn't jive with the system our GM is pushing. Even though these are his players. He picked them.

I think it is stupid to try to create a passing team when your two best players are iso players. I think these two guys have more skills then to be iso players but let's use that characterization. It is indeed a roster vs style problem and when you have two of the best players in the NBA, you play with a style that suits them. I don't understand why that is a difficult concept.
 
It was interesting listening to the Warriors announcers last night. They constantly praised Cousins, but noted that Bogut gave him fits. They thought that Mclemore had made great improvment from his first year, and that he could become a star in the league. They thought that the Kings were very predictable, and were the most isolation oriented team in the NBA. The Warriors plan was to just double anyone that had the ball, because most of the time that person will just throw up some kind of shot rather than pass the ball, or if they did attempt to pass the ball, it would result in a turnover. They couldn't understand why Stauskas wasn't getting more minutes considering where he was drafted.

In the second quarter they commented that the Kings in general didn't handle adversity very well, and often looked confused and frustrated. I couldn't really find fault with their observations. The made several comments about how the Warriors bench was outscoring the Kings bench by a ridiculously lopsided amount, and that the same thing had happened in the Pacer game and in games before that. I kept track of our bench scoring in the last few games, and the disparity is two fold. One is the obvious, our bench isn't very good. Two is, when our bench is in the game, one of either Cousins or Gay is always on the floor, and taking the majority of the shots. In short, our bench players don't get many chances to score.

Comes down to ball sharing. If your only on the floor because five players are required, than that's probably how your going to play. Being a team is about keeping everyone involved. If you don't feel involved, you tend to lose focus, and the quality of your play is diminished. If I walked out on the floor and felt like I was nothing but window dressing, I think eventually, I would just be going through the motions. I hope not, but after a while you get tired of cutting across the floor, or doing backdoor cuts, and never getting the ball.
 
I think it is stupid to try to create a passing team when your two best players are iso players. I think these two guys have more skills then to be iso players but let's use that characterization. It is indeed a roster vs style problem and when you have two of the best players in the NBA, you play with a style that suits them. I don't understand why that is a difficult concept.

I get where your coming from, but what if the style never results in wins? Do your just keep repeating it, or do you try something else? You could say that well, we need better players around them, but what good would that do, if you never pass them the ball. First off, I don't think that Cousins and Gay are purely Iso players. I think they're quite capable of sharing the ball. It might take some adjustment, and yes, it might also mean some of the players around them need to change, but if it starts to result in wins, I don't think either Gay or Cousins would object. Just my opinion....I do know this, something has to change because what were doing isn't working.
 
I get where your coming from, but what if the style never results in wins? Do your just keep repeating it, or do you try something else? You could say that well, we need better players around them, but what good would that do, if you never pass them the ball. First off, I don't think that Cousins and Gay are purely Iso players. I think they're quite capable of sharing the ball. It might take some adjustment, and yes, it might also mean some of the players around them need to change, but if it starts to result in wins, I don't think either Gay or Cousins would object. Just my opinion....I do know this, something has to change because what were doing isn't working.

I'd love it if we had a competent coach. I also said Cuz and Gay weren't strictly iso players if you were directing that comment at me. I think both can alter their game but without a decent coach, we may get caught up in moving players in trade, etc. and not addressing the head coach change.
 
I'd love it if we had a competent coach. I also said Cuz and Gay weren't strictly iso players if you were directing that comment at me. I think both can alter their game but without a decent coach, we may get caught up in moving players in trade, etc. and not addressing the head coach change.

I was speaking in general, since that has been a bone of contention.
 
I get where your coming from, but what if the style never results in wins? Do your just keep repeating it, or do you try something else? You could say that well, we need better players around them, but what good would that do, if you never pass them the ball. First off, I don't think that Cousins and Gay are purely Iso players. I think they're quite capable of sharing the ball. It might take some adjustment, and yes, it might also mean some of the players around them need to change, but if it starts to result in wins, I don't think either Gay or Cousins would object. Just my opinion....I do know this, something has to change because what were doing isn't working.
There were wins earlier in the season, just to note with that first quotation. Right now, Cousins and Gay are becoming better passers and also willing to let other players do their thing. If I recall correctly they gave Ben an iso. We're becoming a better team, gradually. It would be bad however to look down upon iso with contempt. Iso is a solid option for the Kings, an option that other teams don't, and we need to treasure that. Just don't let iso or "ball movement" hinder playing solid basketball.
 
I think having players that can play all kinds of styles is good as it should make our team more difficult to defend. As it is now, teams have to develop a defense to stop Cousins. Now let's make use of Gay and Ben and Collisen and even JT. They all have different skills. They just need a creative head coach. Unfortunately, I doubt the FO will allow even a very skilled coach to have his way.

Cross your fingers, folks. I think we are all pretty much on the same page.
 
There were wins earlier in the season, just to note with that first quotation. Right now, Cousins and Gay are becoming better passers and also willing to let other players do their thing. If I recall correctly they gave Ben an iso. We're becoming a better team, gradually. It would be bad however to look down upon iso with contempt. Iso is a solid option for the Kings, an option that other teams don't, and we need to treasure that. Just don't let iso or "ball movement" hinder playing solid basketball.
I don't believe any team in the NBA can win with 2 heavy iso players on the same team.

I think isos on the Kings team should be rightfully frowned upon. It kills any type of rhythm on offense.

We did start off 8-5, but that was on a very very limited game sample. (Probably would've been more had we not fire Malone).

I agree with what you're saying though... but the Kings are dead last in assists which means the ball isn't going around. There is no ball movement with this current team. Every player seems to be playing for themselves. Ben had the hot hand last night and everyone wanted a piece of their own.. which let the Warriors go on a 23-0 run. Iso basketball is selfish basketball.

Cousins is just such an iso heavy player that he basically takes up 2 slots. Only 1 ball to split up between 3 slots.
 
I don't believe any team in the NBA can win with 2 heavy iso players on the same team.

I think isos on the Kings team should be rightfully frowned upon. It kills any type of rhythm on offense.

We did start off 8-5, but that was on a very very limited game sample. (Probably would've been more had we not fire Malone).

I agree with what you're saying though... but the Kings are dead last in assists which means the ball isn't going around. There is no ball movement with this current team. Every player seems to be playing for themselves. Ben had the hot hand last night and everyone wanted a piece of their own.. which let the Warriors go on a 23-0 run. Iso basketball is selfish basketball.

Cousins is just such an iso heavy player that he basically takes up 2 slots. Only 1 ball to split up between 3 slots.

Indeed, I have no idea how any team can possibly win with multiple players skilled enough to iso:

westbrook-durant.jpg


tis a disaster I tell ya:

Kobe-laughing-with-Shaq.jpg
 
It was interesting listening to the Warriors announcers last night. They constantly praised Cousins, but noted that Bogut gave him fits. They thought that Mclemore had made great improvment from his first year, and that he could become a star in the league. They thought that the Kings were very predictable, and were the most isolation oriented team in the NBA. The Warriors plan was to just double anyone that had the ball, because most of the time that person will just throw up some kind of shot rather than pass the ball, or if they did attempt to pass the ball, it would result in a turnover. They couldn't understand why Stauskas wasn't getting more minutes considering where he was drafted.

In the second quarter they commented that the Kings in general didn't handle adversity very well, and often looked confused and frustrated. I couldn't really find fault with their observations. The made several comments about how the Warriors bench was outscoring the Kings bench by a ridiculously lopsided amount, and that the same thing had happened in the Pacer game and in games before that. I kept track of our bench scoring in the last few games, and the disparity is two fold. One is the obvious, our bench isn't very good. Two is, when our bench is in the game, one of either Cousins or Gay is always on the floor, and taking the majority of the shots. In short, our bench players don't get many chances to score.

Comes down to ball sharing. If your only on the floor because five players are required, than that's probably how your going to play. Being a team is about keeping everyone involved. If you don't feel involved, you tend to lose focus, and the quality of your play is diminished. If I walked out on the floor and felt like I was nothing but window dressing, I think eventually, I would just be going through the motions. I hope not, but after a while you get tired of cutting across the floor, or doing backdoor cuts, and never getting the ball.
It's really funny that they probably did a better job of analyzing why the Kings sucked last night vs Grant and Jerry's analysis every night. They were very respectful and were actually in line with a lot of their observations. They put everything in a nice way, but I think they know that the Kings are a horrible basketball team.

Warrior announcers: "Bogut and the Warriors shutting Cuz down again"
Kings announcers: "No one can stop Demarcus Cousins right now!" (While shooting 5/15)
It almost feels like Grant and Jerry are trying to purposely get fans excited about Cousins for absolutely no reason. Just a little mini conspiracy theory, Grant and Jerry are purposely told by the FO to keep their enthusiasm going during the game, while praising Cousins as much as possible so that fans can remember they have the best center in the NBA for years to come. Just to shield them from the fact that there's a sucky product out there right now.

The Warrior announcers repeatedly said that all the Warriors had to do was double team the ball handler... they know that the Kings aren't going to pass the ball, and if/when they decide to, it's already a TO. Probably the easiest gameplan vs an inept iso offense that is built around 2 guys. It's weird that we've never really seen Jerry nor Grant touch on these subjects. It's very interesting to see the view the other side sees. We're all seeing the same thing, but it's different when someone actually tells you.


I also do not understand why the coaches have continually run the offense through Gay. He should never be on the floor alone without Collison or Cuz. It's terrible trying to see him bring the ball up and create for his teammates. Not a very good playmaker at all.
 
Indeed, I have no idea how any team can possibly win with multiple players skilled enough to iso:



tis a disaster I tell ya:
I did not say enough to iso. I meant clear cut iso like Cousins and Rudy.



Russell Wilson and KD don't have a heavy iso offensive game.. They're shot creators, but they aren't iso offensive players.

We both know that Cousins-Rudy combo is A LOT more iso than KD-Westbrook. Not really sure how you can consider RW an iso player...plus they don't to clear the entire one side of the floor just to get their offense rolling. KD does go to his iso every now and then, but again, he doesn't demand the entire offense to clear out for him to go to work.

Also, not sure when the last time Rudy ever averaged 5apg for an entire season in his career. Plus fun fact, Shaq actually has the higher career APG than Rudy.


Kobe and Shaq actually are high iso offensive players, I'll give you that. Of course they're a lot more talented than Rudy-Cuz, plus a lot better passers and play makers too.

So there is one special case where 2 of the top 10 players in the history of the NBA play together.
 
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