Ben McLemore progression

He has been slightly un-ray Allen like shooting, I'd say.
You do realize you are comparing a 3rd year player to a rookie? Not to mention Klay played 3 years in college and is 23 where Ben is 20?
i think brick is well aware. I'd like to see a comparison to klay's first 18 games.

Point is, mclemore isn't shooting well right now. It's beyond debate. Doesn't mean he won't. I'm invested in hoping and even expecting a bit that he'll become a great shooter soon enough.

Brick probably posted this elsewhere, but what did his college chart look like?
 
He has been slightly un-ray Allen like shooting, I'd say.

i think brick is well aware. I'd like to see a comparison to klay's first 18 games.

Point is, mclemore isn't shooting well right now. It's beyond debate. Doesn't mean he won't. I'm invested in hoping and even expecting a bit that he'll become a great shooter soon enough.

Brick probably posted this elsewhere, but what did his college chart look like?

I'd like to see a college chart if they exist. I know he scored around 17 ppg and I was a little surprised he didn't score more. If I recall, his reputation is that of a great shooter. At the moment he has it all down except for the ball going through the hoop. The comparisons to Ray Allen are not made up but come from something seen is college. His shot will come.
 
Klay struggled shooting his rookie year if I remember, but the release was a beauty just like McLemore, you knew they would start splashing in eventually with time. McLemore has great mechanics, movement, athleticism, as long as he works hard he will be a HUGE threat in the league for years to come. He has the raw tools to be a 20-23 ppg shooter, more if he can develop his off the dribble game and draw fouls.
 
You can definently see progress in Ben's game, he still needs to take his time when shooting the jump shot. He has missed some chippies but all that matters is the kid is willing to put in the work and do other things in the game besides just shooting.
 
I'd like to see a college chart if they exist. I know he scored around 17 ppg and I was a little surprised he didn't score more. If I recall, his reputation is that of a great shooter. At the moment he has it all down except for the ball going through the hoop. The comparisons to Ray Allen are not made up but come from something seen is college. His shot will come.
I think it's nerves. He's 19, with little experience. A young 19. I'm afraid to guess, but he didn't come up as a top prospect going against top talents, right? Kinda late to the scene for these days? We've gotta give him a little time.

Time we have, playoffs aren't coming any time soon.
 
That's a shootist chart. He's good from almost all the points on the floor you shoot from. Right corner, left corner, right wing, left wing...doesn't matter because he is a shootist. The most question mark raising thing about Ben right now, aside from just looking like he's never played defense before, is the shooting. Everything looks great right up until he releases the ball. Then he's John Salmons.

On the positive side I am reminded of another scrawny ballhandling challenged shooting guard who struggled to actually shoot as a rookie who we had once. After his rookie season, you just didn't know. It wasn't translating. 8 years later Kevin Martin's hit a lot of shots.
Yes, but Klay's shooting chart also looked much different his first two months in the league. IMO, they're the same type of player although slightly different. Ben obviously is more athletic, more of a high flier who leaks out in transition while Klay relies more on his size rather than athleticism. While Klay is a superior defender and at this point is without a doubt smarter on that end, I think MLM's athleticism provides more upside and versatility on that end, a higher ceiling. Both are heavily reliant on movement to get their shots and neither are great ball handlers. Klay is superior taking an escape dribble or two and combined with his size going right up and rising over the defender. But I'd also say MLM has occasionally shown more ability to get to the rim and in the paint than Klay.

I've watched most of Klay's games and followed his progression, being here in the Bay Area and getting all the GS games on tv and Klay's initial struggles are similar to MLM's. Very good shooter reputation wise who struggled finding his spots, his windows in the NBA game. That slowly improved but let's not forget Klay was quite poor, even labelled a bust by some after his first few months.

Klay's rookie year:

Dec-4 games: 3 PPP, 2.0 RPG, .267 FG%
Jan-15 games: 7.7 PPG, 1.3 RPG, .448 FG%
Feb-13 games: 8.1 PPG, 2.1 RPG, .488 FG%
March- 18 games: 16.4 PPG, 2.6 RPG, .421 FG%
April- 16-games: 18.6 PPG, 3.8 RPG, .459 FG%

His first 32+ games he looked pretty lost, even arguably more lost than MLM currently looks. The adjustment really came in early March where the speed of the game appeared to slow down for him.

Ben in comparison:

Nov-13 games: 9.5 PPG, 3.1 RPG, .393 FG%
Dec- 4 games: 13.3 PPG, 4.5 RPG, .373 FG%

Remains to be seen if sometime in Feb/March the game really slows down for MLM but in comparison to Klay's first year I don't see much worry at this point and we are seeing an uptick in Ben's production. Giving what we have with Jimmer it's always risky declaring a college shooter will have his shot translate to this level sooner or later, but I don't see MLM having trouble getting off shots. It's the the rhythm of those shots and finding out where and when they'll come which takes time. Confidence comes into play as well. Maybe I'll end up being wrong but I do generally see a number of similarities between Klay/MLM in their style of play and many times there is an adjustment period for off the ball players. Peja went through it too. I would not at all be surprised if by Feb or March, MLM is putting up 15-17 PPG on 42-45% FG and getting around 5 RPG. I think he'll look less error prone on defense by that point too. That would compare favorably to a rookie Klay. And at that point it's more the game slowing down and knowing where your spots and and getting to them quicker, as well as the confidence of your teammates to find you quicker, at least imo.

Of course, comparing players like this isn't an exact science and involves some speculation, but I am one who's made the comparison between the two after watching most of Klay's games.
 
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...On the positive side I am reminded of another scrawny ballhandling challenged shooting guard who struggled to actually shoot as a rookie who we had once. After his rookie season, you just didn't know. It wasn't translating. 8 years later Kevin Martin's hit a lot of shots.

Kevin Martin? The kid who would never amount to anything, would never get a second contract and would certainly never start?

Who are you and what have you done with Bricklayer?
 
I find it very amusing that people think a 19 year old can't improve his dribbling ability.
No one said can't improve, just can't improve enough that he becomes an iso, 1v1 player. Look at other SG's in this league, there's little chance his handle gets to a Harden/Wade/Manu/Monta/Kobe level. The hope would be he becomes better than a guy like Kev.

There shouldn't be anything amusing about it. Unless you'd like to start naming off all the players who considerably improved their handle at the guard position to where it went from a weakness to a strength. It's extremely rare. Why? Because once again anyone who grew up playing and around the game knows it's developed at an early age. You don't see poor or below average ball handlers at 19/20/21 become great ball handlers. Kev didn't. Peja didn't. Ray Allen didn't. Reggie didn't. Reddick hasn't. There's not a single off the ball player who's patterned his game as an off the ball player who improved his handle enough that his style changed to a more 1v1 player.

There's a difference between some improvement and being able to use a few bounces to get to your spots, like a Peja or a Ray Allen, and expecting improvement to the point that he'd start dancing with his dribble like a Wade or Durant or Harden.
 
Kevin Martin? The kid who would never amount to anything, would never get a second contract and would certainly never start?

Who are you and what have you done with Bricklayer?

That's a popular myth actually. I held the door open for Kevin going into his second year, advocated against dumping him. But let's be clear here: I was doing him charity because he had shown exactly diddly as a rook. Just comes from a general philosophy regarding rooks, one that has been challenged in recent years as we started bringing in obviously unfit specimens. As for Ben, if he was on the deep bench getting 10min a game there actually wouldn't be much question. Let him work it out, and maybe it does. its us being forced to start a guy shooting 37% that's causing any discussion.

As for the rest, I like tools. What I look for in rooks. Ben has tools. But every single fanbase in the NBA every single year thinks its rooks are the shiznit. Us doing it again is no shocker, and no guarantee it will work out. I can say he definitely has tools though. People say he works hard. Good. Not sure how bright he is, makes a lot of dumb errors, could hold him back, could just be kid stuff. But he has tools, which is probably why people got excited about him back in college. Its a better reason than college production as far as I'm concerned.

You do need those tools to translate at some point however.
 
Unfortunately the fact is that ballhandling rarely improves significantly this late in a player's basketball development. There are certain skills that you routinely see improved -- mostly of the shooting variety, but defensive effort sometimes etc.. But there are another set that are much closer to just set traits than skills, ballhandling is one of those. Because he's so egregiously bad right now I do think he should be able to become at least ok. But I can think of very few instances (which actually would be roughly translated to "none" except I don't want to sit back and review 30 years of NBA basketball), of a guy who came into the league with a bad handle, and actually got to the point he was beating people off the dribble. Far more likely for Ben to develop along a Peja/Reggie Miller path where other people have to create their shots for them. I just want him to get to the point where he's not dribbling it off his toes evrytime a defender gets within 3ft of him.

You and I will never agree on this, so I'll just leave it at that. :)
 
I agree in that I can't think of an example of a major improvement either. I don't think it's out of reach though, if a guy can get himself to actually practice dribbling skills all the time. It seems to be a tough thing to get someone to do though, especially when they're very good at other things like shooting and dunking. We seem to want to practice what we're already good at.

Odds are against, but I do believe it could be done

I'm not sure how many of you have seen some of the workout groups that the players go to in the offseasn, which is the only way to make a dramatic improvement in a skill. You have the whole summer to work on something. Players that are perpetually bad ballhandlers usually have either, bad hand/eye coordination, or small hands, or both. I don't think that's the case with McLemore. In his case, he came to basketball late, and is just behind in his development. If you've ever seen a workout at one of these skills academy's, you'd be amazed by the drills they do. They dribble two balls at the same time while navigating through obstacles. They make them dribble blindfolded while instructers bang into them and that's just the tip of the iceberg. I'll see if I can find a video to post. Most players on the west coast got to either LA or Las Vegas for workouts, and both places are renown for improving players.

Even though Tyreke was an excellent ballhandler, he went every summer to work on his ballhandling. Trust me, players that want to improve, and McLemore by all appearances wants to improve, do more than just work on their shot. Although they do continue to work on that as well since its their bread and butter. By the way, one of the perks of going to summer league is that you can go over to the workout academy (sorry I can't think of the name right now) and watch them work out. Its open to the public, or at least it was when Cruzdude and I went there.
 
I agree his left hand seems to be the biggest issue.

The biggest problem I have with McLemore's ballhandling is that he has a very high dribble. His handle would improve right away if he would just correct that part. High dribbles tend to be loose dribbles. Not many good ballhandlers had a high dribble. Most notable that I can think of was Magic Johnson, but he was the rare exception.
 
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