Bee: Tough times hurting Bibby

[Bricklayer]

I agree with the booing, no it may not help the team or motivate the team and some fans say well than why boo your home team? Well if you pay your hard earned money and the guys on the floor don't look like they are giving the effort or they are playing lousy you have the right to boo IMO and there is nothing wrong with it.

No indeed -- you also have the "right" to dress down that waitress in the restaraunt for screwing up your order (as long as I am not sitting at the table next to you). People always have the "right" to be *******s. Doesn't make them anything but *******s unfortunately.

 

[GoGoGadget]

Well if you pay your hard earned money and the guys on the floor don't look like they are giving the effort or they are playing lousy you have the right to boo IMO and there is nothing wrong with it.

Okay, this I'm getting tired of.

Boo if you must, but at least have the courage to admit that you're acting like a spoiled brat when you do so.

It is not your right to act like an *** and make the people around you miserable. The folks in front of you, who've paid their own hard earned money, don't need to have your wailing in their ears as a part of the Arco experience.

Nor is it fulfilling a particularly noble duty to so vociferously express your displeasure to the team. It's not your job. It's not your own special contribution to the organization. I'm pretty sure they know they're sucking without the aid of your boo trickling down from the nosebleeds.

 

[NikateeN]

You buy a ticket for a game knowing there is a good chance your team might lose, thats a part of this sport, somebody has to lose.

They are already doing bad enough and need our support as much as possible, if we boo when they are having a bad game, but cheer when they do great, its kinda like "oh, now your happy".

Bibby has been the face of the Kings for a few years now, when you think of the Kings you picture Bibby, i understand hes not cuttin it right now, but hes trying, he was out there a few hours early before the game last week for the first time in years trying to perfect his shot, that should show the effort.

Mike is still one of my favs, i dont want to see him go, but in the end whatever happens, happens, and we have no choice but to move on, hopefully he can produce so he can maybe be here one day when we win the big one.

 

[Vlade4GM]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/rumors/...lt=AlWuRw5xEDyfVyT7LBdTXrWL0bYF?urn=nba,24164

NBA Rumors

Bibby to Cavs trade dead, unless ...

Monday, Feb 12, 2007 12:15 pm EST


The Cleveland Cavaliers and Sacramento Kings were discussing a trade several weeks ago that would send point guard Mike Bibby to the Cavs, but sources indicate the talks are long dead.
There is no natural deal unless a third team gets involved. With the exception of LeBron James, the Cavs made everyone on their roster available in pursuit of Bibby. The Kings had interest in Drew Gooden because of their need for frontcourt rebounding and scoring. The talks were mostly cursory.
Source: Beacon Journal

miami is still very interested in bibby.

 

[kennadog]

8. To boo or to not is a personal opinion and you could chose either way, but I dont think you defend your arguments for not booing him. He just isnt putting in the effort and many fans feel that booing is the way of expressing that. Thats the beginning, then they will stop coming to games and finally the owners will need to make a change

Yeah, like moving the team elsewhere, because they are tired of getting negativity and crap in Sacramento. The team won five in a row, but fans were really quick to start booing Sunday.

A good many Kings fans are really spoiled. Plenty of fans in other places would be thrilled to have a pro sports team. Just like we used to be thrilled, even when the Kings sucked way worse than they do right now.

Its easy to root for a team when they are winning. That's cheap and easy. The test of support comes when a team is losing. Can you still root for them and give them the support they really need then?

If a bunch of people booed you all day long at work, no matter what you did or what problems you were having, would you perform better? Most people perform well when they have the support of people who want to see them do well.

I can't make people not boo, but our reputation as the best fans in the NBA is pretty much going rapidly down the drain. And I'm sorry and embarassed by that. Sacramento hasn't got too many things to attract players. The fans used to be one of them.

 

[vladetomiller]

Had the Kings made a few more free throws in Game 7 or had Dick Bavetta not reffed Game 6, Bibby would have been Finals MVP in 2002. You can put that in the bank.

SAR, on the other hand, first made the playoffs last year, and wasn't much of a factor.

Kings including bibby didnt make free throws, there is no if and but there, games are not won on FTA its based in FTM

Ah, the famous game 6, mavs fans say that they are the real 2006 champs as well. If D-whistle doesnt outscore opponents on the FT line all by himself then they say that the mavs would have swept the heat. Heck even the owner is claiming that.

LOL, Bibby finals mvp in 2002. I wouldnt take any nba games to the bank, werent the lakers a 4-1 favourites to win the finals against the pistons. I bet many took that to the bank.

The only person that took anything to the bank was bibby after that playoffs and he is still earning interest on it

 

[vladetomiller]

If a bunch of people booed you all day long at work, no matter what you did or what problems you were having, would you perform better? Most people perform well when they have the support of people who want to see them do well.

quote]

I dont understand how you guys compare this to regular work. If you dont perform at work there will be no boooing, you get fired in most cases if it is a demanding high profile job. If it is a mediocre job then maybe you get yelled at by the boss and you dont get any raise etc etc.

Here irrespective of what bibby does he will get 1 mil more than the 12 he is making this year.

I dont think fans boo because the shots are not going in, they are booing because the effort is not there. The team and that starts with your highest paid player, is not putting in the effort to compete. I suppose you would just want to sit tight and appreciate what they are doing and continue to pay for those high priced tickets.

While we are at it, we should also start giving them grades starting at B+ cos they might stumble upon this site , see the low grades theyare getting and maybe hurt their feelings. In fact we should only give them A grades moving forward

 

[vladetomiller]

other then Kobe's elbow - he won the national championship in college

There are hundreds of players who were part of the national championship who dont even make it to the nba. i am not talking about reserves, i am talking about starters.

He didnt even win Kobe's elbow, he asked for it and he got it. Kobe doesnt discriminate there, he gives it to everyone.

 

[chelle]

There are hundreds of players who were part of the national championship who dont even make it to the nba. i am not talking about reserves, i am talking about starters.

He didnt even win Kobe's elbow, he asked for it and he got it. Kobe doesnt discriminate there, he gives it to everyone.

Actually, he was a main contributer to that national championship, hence is #2 draft selection the following year.

I hope that I am misunderstanding your meaning here - just ow exactly did he "ask for" Kobe's elbow?

I have no problems when people on this site voice their opinions against Bibby's basketball skills this season. I disagree with most, but it's all good. It has not been his best season. and we have this site to discuss issues like this. However, are you sure that your opinion about him does not go deeper than just basketball? Just wondering.

 

[Jerryaki]

While we are at it, we should also start giving them grades starting at B+ cos they might stumble upon this site , see the low grades theyare getting and maybe hurt their feelings. In fact we should only give them A grades moving forward

i agree here. what is the difference between booing and writing all of our criticisms on this public site where some of the management/players probably look through from time to time? we're supposed to give them unconditional support on the field, but then criticize the hell out of them behind the anonymity of the web?

this thread has gone through many different topics, from bibby's comments, to past kings, to the glory days, to who is and isn't clutch, to loyalty, to the franchise sticking around, to money issues, to booing and not booing...i think i just caught up on all things kings for the past few years.

 

[vladetomiller]

Actually, he was a main contributer to that national championship, hence is #2 draft selection the following year.

I hope that I am misunderstanding your meaning here - just ow exactly did he "ask for" Kobe's elbow?

I have no problems when people on this site voice their opinions against Bibby's basketball skills this season. I disagree with most, but it's all good. It has not been his best season. and we have this site to discuss issues like this. However, are you sure that your opinion about him does not go deeper than just basketball? Just wondering.

the original poster made it out as if Kobe's elbow is precious and you actually have to win it. I was making a point that its not that difficult to get that elbow, all you have to do is ask and you will get it. Kobe has been effectively using his elbow to clear out space and has done many a times and has not been penalized until recently. To get an elbow all you have to do is "ask", meaning you defend him from behind him and he does swing it and if you are not capable of anticipating it, or if you are too close to him he hits you.

College championships are ok but that is not that valuable imo.

I think bibby is a decent player, but not that great to deserve that kind of contract. That is something I have been saying from 2002, when you put max money on a player like that and he doesnt deliver then it puts your franchise in a spot. He is not the only one in the league that has done that, there are many and you can see my post on players salary on the nba forum. Maybe since you are interested in bibby you think I am only against bibby and my posts on bibby seem to have more effect on you than the places where i talk about finley, brian grant, brad, webber, shaq, evans, kenyon etc etc.

To clear things, I have nothing personal against bibby, i do not know him besides what i see on tv or the few games where i have seen him play from about 100 feet away. In fact I do not know any nba player in person, i have seen a few outside of the arena but I am not the kind to go and talk to them or even look at them a second time when they are not playing basketball.

 

[fnordius]

what is the difference between booing and writing all of our criticisms on this public site where some of the management/players probably look through from time to time?

If Kevin looked here and saw that people wanted him to work on his defence more, or Justin did and noticed that people felt that his FT shooting needed some work, etc., I would be fine with that, because those are specific criticisms, based on very real matters which can and should be addressed. Even if you go so far as to say that a player should be traded, you are arguing that for the good of the team -- you are trying to support the team with your criticism.

But if Brad's having a low-rebound game, or Muss is making inexplicable substitutions, there's no way to boo that. Under most circumstances, you either boo everything about the team at once, or you boo nothing at all.

Let's put it in another context. Let's imagine for a moment -- purely hypothetically, mind you -- that we lived in a country that had engaged in a questionable military adventure. One might well consider it the patriotic thing to do to criticise the decision making involved, or the execution -- loving one's country means not wanting it to bungle things. But would you argue that it was your right, as a taxpayer, to show up whenever troops were departing or returning, and loudly boo them?

 

[GoGoGadget]

i agree here. what is the difference between booing and writing all of our criticisms on this public site where some of the management/players probably look through from time to time? we're supposed to give them unconditional support on the field, but then criticize the hell out of them behind the anonymity of the web?

Several differences.

For one thing, if a player/coach/whatever comes to this forum and reads our criticisms, they've made a conscious decision to do so. Your analogy would be more apt if we were ambushing the players and making these comments while they're trying to enjoy dinner. Which, for the record, would also be inappropriate.

For another thing, as I touched on in my previous post, booing the team doesn't just affect the players on the floor. Booing is loud, and obnoxious, and sucks like hell if you're surrounded by it. There's a selfishness in not caring about the fact you're bothering the other people trying to enjoy the game that really irks me.

Also highly doubt that anything we say here is going to lead to snarky comments made by the national media about the fickle/spoiled nature of the fan base.

As for your last comment... is that supposed to mean that being one tiny face in a crowd of thousands is somehow not anonymous?

 

[Kingster]

The only person that took anything to the bank was bibby after that playoffs and he is still earning interest on it

BINGO!

 

[vladetomiller]

Let's put it in another context. Let's imagine for a moment -- purely hypothetically, mind you -- that we lived in a country that had engaged in a questionable military adventure. One might well consider it the patriotic thing to do to criticise the decision making involved, or the execution -- loving one's country means not wanting it to bungle things. But would you argue that it was your right, as a taxpayer, to show up whenever troops were departing or returning, and loudly boo them?

No way you can compare those two, absolutely no way.

Your analogy should refer to the decision maker in one cos thats where your supposed fault is, and I think in that hypothetical case people would boo / protest with the leader who made the decision.

If the troops hypothetically were cowards and just ran away from the field, if they didnt put in the effort to do the job then and only then your argument holds good.

But again, not a good analogy and really not a good place to touch comparing the situation here.

 

[kennadog]

VladetoMiller

I dont understand how you guys compare this to regular work. If you dont perform at work there will be no boooing, you get fired in most cases if it is a demanding high profile job. If it is a mediocre job then maybe you get yelled at by the boss and you dont get any raise etc etc.

While we are at it, we should also start giving them grades starting at B+ cos they might stumble upon this site , see the low grades theyare getting and maybe hurt their feelings. In fact we should only give them A grades moving forward

Maybe I made the comparison, because NBA players are human and have human feelings?

I find it hard to believe that players would waste their time on the internet reading fan message boards. I sure wouldn't. I can't see anything they could possibly gain by doing so. Do you really think Bibby needs our tips on how to play basketball or that he doesn't know he's having a lousy season, because no one is telling him?

And GoGoGadget is right. There is a huge difference between writing on a message board and booing at the arena. The booing is getting to the point where its quick, not always deserved and just makes Kings fans look bad. Not to mention it ruins watching the game for me, selfish person that I am.

 

[fnordius]

No way you can compare those two, absolutely no way.

Your analogy should refer to the decision maker in one cos thats where your supposed fault is, and I think in that hypothetical case people would boo / protest with the leader who made the decision.

If the troops hypothetically were cowards and just ran away from the field, if they didnt put in the effort to do the job then and only then your argument holds good.

But again, not a good analogy and really not a good place to touch comparing the situation here.

If I could boo some of the front office's personnel decisions, or some of Muss' decisions about who to play when, I would. But that's impossible. I can only boo the team as a whole, and you can bet that the players are the ones who are taking it personally.

If management want to read me rip into them because they have left us with a smallball roster that's poorly thought out and badly utilized, I am 100% fine with that. I hope that they do read it! But I can't boo a specific decision by the Maloofs, or GP, or Muss. I can only boo the players, and I'm not about to blame them all for things which are mostly out of their control.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Now Hear This:

To ALL concerned:

Keep your "hypothetical" comments about a "hypothetical" military adventure out of here; we do not discuss politics, "hypothetically" or otherwise, on this board. kthxbye.

 

[Jerryaki]

Several differences. For one thing, if a player/coach/whatever comes to this forum and reads our criticisms, they've made a conscious decision to do so. Your analogy would be more apt if we were ambushing the players and making these comments while they're trying to enjoy dinner. Which, for the record, would also be inappropriate.

hmm, i guess i wasn't approaching it from that angle, but more from the content of the posts we have here compared to booing. some posts i see on here are on the order of "trade X for a bag of chips," things that are neither supportive or constructive. but there is also a tacit understanding that when they sign on to become sports players, these guys know that they will hear it, good and bad, from the crowd; it's a part of the game. (but i will keep in mind that i should not go bug mike at home during his evening meal )

For another thing, as I touched on in my previous post, booing the team doesn't just affect the players on the floor. Booing is loud, and obnoxious, and sucks like hell if you're surrounded by it. There's a selfishness in not caring about the fact you're bothering the other people trying to enjoy the game that really irks me.

yeah, this is true too. although i don't know how much there is to enjoy at a game that has already brought out the booing.

Also highly doubt that anything we say here is going to lead to snarky comments made by the national media about the fickle/spoiled nature of the fan base.

don't personally care whether or not the rest of the nation or other fan bases view kings fans as loyal or good or whatever. just care about the team doing well at some point and giving it their all.

As for your last comment... is that supposed to mean that being one tiny face in a crowd of thousands is somehow not anonymous?

figured that there was at least a little more of a connection with the team/mgmt and the fans at a game, where they can actually see the people behind the booing, vs. seeing some KiNgS_RUlEZ_4EVA posting on a message board.

 

[kennadog]

don't personally care whether or not the rest of the nation or other fan bases view kings fans as loyal or good or whatever. just care about the team doing well at some point and giving it their all.

Sacramento doesn't have a whole lot to offer players compared to many other cities. The fans have always been one of the pluses. If the Maloofs and the NBA feel the fans are no longer supportive of the franchise, its just another reason to move the team. The reasons are piling up pretty fast.

 

[vladetomiller]

Sacramento doesn't have a whole lot to offer players compared to many other cities. The fans have always been one of the pluses. If the Maloofs and the NBA feel the fans are no longer supportive of the franchise, its just another reason to move the team. The reasons are piling up pretty fast.

Other than a few bigmarket teams, sacto can compete with every other city out there to bring in talent.
Biggest reason - Weather

Why do you think bibby doesnt want to go to cleveland, that too if you talk to him about a trade when a blizzard is on, no wonder he wouldnt want to go there

 

[bperiod]

Other than a few bigmarket teams, sacto can compete with every other city out there to bring in talent.
Biggest reason - Weather

Why do you think bibby doesnt want to go to cleveland, that too if you talk to him about a trade when a blizzard is on, no wonder he wouldnt want to go there

You're dreaming. Sac always has and always will have a tough time getting players that WANT to come. Do you live there? LOL It's not a hot spot that professional athletes dream of playing in coming up. You need a certain kind of personality and I think Mike has it. Weather has nothing to do with it.

 

[Kingster]

You're dreaming. Sac always has and always will have a tough time getting players that WANT to come. Do you live there? LOL It's not a hot spot that professional athletes dream of playing in coming up. You need a certain kind of personality and I think Mike has it. Weather has nothing to do with it.

If you're talking about free agency, for a young guy who wants the night life, Sacto is not the place. But for a guy who has or wants a family, it is. Sacto is suitable for the more mature player, and when you think about it, that is to our advantage. There are plenty of ex-players who talk glowingly about Sacramento. If anything, I think it's some Sacramentans who have a self-image problem about their home.

 

[bperiod]

If you're talking about free agency, for a young guy who wants the night life, Sacto is not the place. But for a guy who has or wants a family, it is. Sacto is suitable for the more mature player, and when you think about it, that is to our advantage. There are plenty of ex-players who talk glowingly about Sacramento. If anything, I think it's some Sacramentans who have a self-image problem about their home.

I am talking about a young player in his prime. You hit it right on the head. Sacramento is a great place to live for your average Joe or as you put it a "more mature player"...but from what I've been reading around here...we don't want a mature player...we want to throw them all out and start over. Players in their prime don't want to come to small market teams unless they see something to make them believe there's a chance at a run. Top that off with the way we have turned our backs on franchise staples as soon as they have the slightest down turn in their play....doesn't bode well for Sac.

 

[Kingster]

I am talking about a young player in his prime. You hit it right on the head. Sacramento is a great place to live for your average Joe or as you put it a "more mature player"...but from what I've been reading around here...we don't want a mature player...we want to throw them all out and start over. Players in their prime don't want to come to small market teams unless they see something to make them believe there's a chance at a run. Top that off with the way we have turned our backs on franchise staples as soon as they have the slightest down turn in their play....doesn't bode well for Sac.

Let me be specific. To me, a players prime is 28-32 years of age. Also, for me, "more mature" doesn't mean "average joe". It means a player who doesn't have partying as his main endeavor in life, that he wants or has a family, that he values the rabid King's fans at games more than he values the actor's guild at Lakers games. When we draft a player, they don't have a choice, they have to be here for the first 4 years (I think that's the number?). So, after the 4 yrs (?), they are anwhere from 23-26 years old. We might lose some of those guys if they like the nightlife and the big lights. But at the same time, Sacto can grow on you. Four years is time to get a serious girl friend or a wife, to really appreciate the fan support and the other nice things of the community. My own opinion is that the years and years and years of losing, as well as the years of instability in the coaching and GM positions had more to do with the King's poor reputation (prior to Petrie) than the town itself.

 

[Bricklayer]

If you're talking about free agency, for a young guy who wants the night life, Sacto is not the place. But for a guy who has or wants a family, it is. Sacto is suitable for the more mature player, and when you think about it, that is to our advantage. There are plenty of ex-players who talk glowingly about Sacramento. If anything, I think it's some Sacramentans who have a self-image problem about their home.

No, its not just Sacramentans -- if you are young, ridiculously wealthy etc., Sacramento is just about the LAST berg you would want to find yourself in. Its simply not designed to cater to that type of situation, whether you are "mature" or not. Noplace to use that wealth, limited entertainment options (comparatively) etc. It is what it is: in general a negative for free agents. But its not determinative. Big $$, winning, and I think to a lesser degree fan support (nice to be treated like a hero) have made it a reasonable free agent destination in the last decade. You can feel that slipping away now, but there still hasn't been the first real wrinkling of the nose at Sacto by a free agent -- at least on record. Been a few guys who have started that when it came to trades again.

As for the "guy with a family" thing, I doubt that really applies to NBA players. With their wealth, EVERY city is good for their families, or at least the part of every city they are going to be living in.

Sacramento has long had a rather notorious inferiority complex, and at times almost an intentional tendency to think of itself as smaller than it is. But when we start talking about catering to 20-somethings worth 8 figures, the issue is real.

 

[bperiod]

No, its not just Sacramentans -- if you are young, ridiculously wealthy etc., Sacramento is just about the LAST berg you would want to find yourself in. Its simply not designed to cater to that type of situation, whether you are "mature" or not. Noplace to use that wealth, limited entertainment options (comparatively) etc. It is what it is: in general a negative for free agents. But its not determinative. Big $$, winning, and I think to a lesser degree fan support (nice to be treated like a hero) have made it a reasonable free agent destination in the last decade. You can feel that slipping away now, but there still hasn't been the first real wrinkling of the nose at Sacto by a free agent -- at least on record. Been a few guys who have started that when it came to trades again.

As for the "guy with a family" thing, I doubt that really applies to NBA players. With their wealth, EVERY city is good for their families, or at least the part of every city they are going to be living in.

Sacramento has long had a rather notorious inferiority complex, and at times almost an intentional tendency to think of itself as smaller than it is. But when we start talking about catering to 20-somethings worth 8 figures, the issue is real.

Word!

 

[kennadog]

As a decades long resident of the Sacramento region, no I don't have an inferiority complex. On the other hand, I believe I have a realistic view of what Sacramento has to offer versus other cities. Weather and family living is just as good in a lot of the other cities.

One of the big issues is taxes. A player can actually become a permanent resident of Florida, Washington or Texas, for instance, and they don't pay state income tax. I'd consider that a huge benefit. (It would be a benefit in Nevada, too.) No sales tax in Oregon.

Sacramento's claim to fame, is still being the capitol of California. It doesn't have much identity besides that and that isn't something that particularly provides benefits to the average resident. Actually, government taking up so much of downtown has been a negative. The politicians and their staff are out-of-towners who don't give a hoo-ha about Sacramento.

And unless you live in LA or SF, where there's a whole lot more going on and the team is on much more solid financial footing (not likely to move), why pay high living costs, if you don't have to?

The reason players started wanting to come here is because of winning. Who knows why Vlade wanted to come here. Fan support is great and has made Sacramento special to many players, but fans can be found anywhere and quite possibly in an economically more viable city

 

[bibbinator]

Jeez. Sac is still in CA. Easy winter, great spring and fall. LA is about 45 minutes away by plane (the governor often commutes in), the bay area is less. Tahoe is just around the bend. Real estate is relatively cheap too compared to LA and the Bay Area.

Not too mention real appreciation from the fans.


Sac isn't for everyone but for certain players it can be an attractive destination.

 

[Kingster]

No, its not just Sacramentans -- if you are young, ridiculously wealthy etc., Sacramento is just about the LAST berg you would want to find yourself in. Its simply not designed to cater to that type of situation, whether you are "mature" or not. Noplace to use that wealth, limited entertainment options (comparatively) etc. It is what it is: in general a negative for free agents. But its not determinative. Big $$, winning, and I think to a lesser degree fan support (nice to be treated like a hero) have made it a reasonable free agent destination in the last decade. You can feel that slipping away now, but there still hasn't been the first real wrinkling of the nose at Sacto by a free agent -- at least on record. Been a few guys who have started that when it came to trades again.

As for the "guy with a family" thing, I doubt that really applies to NBA players. With their wealth, EVERY city is good for their families, or at least the part of every city they are going to be living in.

Sacramento has long had a rather notorious inferiority complex, and at times almost an intentional tendency to think of itself as smaller than it is. But when we start talking about catering to 20-somethings worth 8 figures, the issue is real.

I think we're disagreeing in minor degrees here. And for the most part, the net effect of the desirability of Sacramento has to do with non-King free agents coming here, as my understanding is that the NBA rules are constructed to incent players to stay with the team that draft them. (For one thing, the team that drafts a player can pay more than the other teams that are bidding for his services). Granted, it's all anecdotal evidence, but in all of the situations that I've heard since the last NBA collective bargaining agreement, by far the most important factor in the player's mind, is how much they're going to get paid.