Bee: Maloof demands for arena unusual
- Thread starter VF21
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cary_anderson
Prospect
This is starting to get derailed into a topic regarding mass transit. I think that we can have both. I have taken bart, lightrail, capital corridor trains, Caltrain and muni to commute around and into the bay area. I have found light rail to be comparable to bart it terms of safety and cleanliness. I agree with Kupman that the only way for public transit to become better is for there to be an emphasis on its use. Bart, and Caltrain run expanded services on days that there are games. There is no reason that couldn't be done here for lightrail and busses. If I had the option of parking 10 min away from the arena and grabbing lightrail to the door of the arena I'd do it it in a heartbeat. No reason for me to sped 10-15$ on parking when I can spend 1.50 on a lightrail pass. Going to games is pricey enough without having to fork out money for parking. I would be far more interested in parking near one of my favorite downtown restaurants and grabbing a bite then jumping on some sort of bus/shuttle/lightrail to the game, or walk there from the restaurant. I would much rather have an arena integrated into the downtown than an isolated structure surrounded by a sea of concrete for parking. Just my two cents...
kupman
Starter
Arena Skeptic
Bench
I take public transit daily...
... But I won't leave my car parked after dark at the Watt Avenue, Power Inn, Meadowview or Florin Road stations. After a game, I think it'd take me an hour to leave the arena, walk to light rail, wait for a train, get to Florin Road, and then drive home.
For Roseville people? Forget it. They're looking at lugging 1-4 people to Watt, then driving home... 90 minutes. Not possible on school days. They'll drive.
I really, really think the "Plan B" referred to by RE is on the table. Think back to the idea from last year, where AKT "donates" proceeds to make it work. Good deal for him, because he paid $150/acre for thousands of acres in the east part of the county that is just sitting there, but can't be developed because of county zoning rules. If he can get a rezone, that land is suddenly saleable, at $150,000/acre.
But he'd have to get the railyard development deal before he'd agree.
I think that's the "this-for-that" deal Cohn and others say is in works, in some room we don't know exists...
... But I won't leave my car parked after dark at the Watt Avenue, Power Inn, Meadowview or Florin Road stations. After a game, I think it'd take me an hour to leave the arena, walk to light rail, wait for a train, get to Florin Road, and then drive home.
For Roseville people? Forget it. They're looking at lugging 1-4 people to Watt, then driving home... 90 minutes. Not possible on school days. They'll drive.
I really, really think the "Plan B" referred to by RE is on the table. Think back to the idea from last year, where AKT "donates" proceeds to make it work. Good deal for him, because he paid $150/acre for thousands of acres in the east part of the county that is just sitting there, but can't be developed because of county zoning rules. If he can get a rezone, that land is suddenly saleable, at $150,000/acre.
But he'd have to get the railyard development deal before he'd agree.
I think that's the "this-for-that" deal Cohn and others say is in works, in some room we don't know exists...
cary_anderson
Prospect
So Don't leave your car at those places after night, drive to someplace safer and park there. This isn't an either or scenario. Besides I hate to tell you this but your spending at least an hour getting out of the Arco lot after a game. Last game I went to at Arco, it took me 1.5 hours just to get onto the freeway, then I still had to drive home from there. When I lived in the Bay Area (Fremont\San Jose) I took Bart/Caltrain/Muni to a games in SF, I had to wait less than 5 minutes for muni, less than 10 min. for bart, The train was maybe 15 minutes before it left the station. The ride on Bart was 45 min to my house and the train was about an hour. There is no way I could have gotten to the Giants game in less time if I drove, and it would have cost me at least over 35$ to just drive including parking, gas, and tolls.
The point is, mass transit can be setup so that it is safe, efficient and cheap. I believe Bart, Caltrain, and Muni all up security during game times, and that could certainly be setup here in Sac.
Bottom line is if you don't want to take MT then don't but don't eliminate it as a possiblilty because you feel that it doesn't work for you, thats what putting 8K parking spots essentially is doing.
ps
hehe yeah kupman, I coudn't help myself on the pun. It was too easy
Cerwindel
Prospect
It is simple psychology. Their actions tell it all, first we have a deal, then they don't put some money up to the Yes on Q/R Campaign, then they hold a press conference at the railyards and let everyone know that it might possibly not be at the railyards, which really makes ZERO sense to say out loud, unless the deal is breaking down. Then shortly after, we hear the maloofs have walked away from the table citing "Issues over certain aspects of the deal".. huh?.. More time goes by... Then they say " We agreed to 8,000 Spots and control over what goes around the arena, now the city has backed away from that deal". And now the developer steps in, makes a donation to the Cause ( The first one of its kind, while the maloofs give 0$ From the start ).
There isnt really any reason to go on.. How are we suposto perceive this behavior? You know how the majority of the public has so far, Not good
Im not sure their intentions are to move the team initally, however If I had to make a speculation on what this whole debacle was about? To proof to the NBA that "Look, we cant make a profit here, and the city leaders / voters wont support us". The move might not be immediate, but I can assure you, the NBA is watching, very closely. \
I just cant see the maloofs being this stupid, nor their people. They really have not done a WHOLE lot to support Q/R, so why should we believe their intentions are to get it passed?
-C
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kupman
Starter
Whatever - the truth does sound offensive sometimes. I am just trying to voice an important opinion. 8,000 parking spots may be convenient to you (and the Maloofs) and you may feel safer in your car. However, I live in the area and less taffic congestion and less air pollution would improve the quality of my life, not to mention my health.
I am sorry if anyone is insulted. I am just tired of cars getting the front seat every time. God forbid we should forced to use clean alternative forms transportation like walking and light rail.
Whatever? Nice response.
I'm done. Your "truth" isn't about the arena. It's about politics and agendas. As such, it's not really suitable for this forum. And if you live in the area, you aren't worried about a place to park anyway, are you?
What I've been trying to say is there should be some kind of recognition for ALL needs, but apparently you just want to improve the quality of YOUR life and your health.
Cool.
Have a nice day.
I'm done. Your "truth" isn't about the arena. It's about politics and agendas. As such, it's not really suitable for this forum. And if you live in the area, you aren't worried about a place to park anyway, are you?
What I've been trying to say is there should be some kind of recognition for ALL needs, but apparently you just want to improve the quality of YOUR life and your health.
Cool.
Have a nice day.
I honestly don't read RE unless somebody posts it here. I mentioned this in another thread, but the private deal with land re-zoning is problematic. The main issue is that the financing must be obtained upfront to construct the arena. So that has to be arranged. It's not enough security to tell the lender that the repayment from the loan will come from the sale of land by a third party putting money into an account. They want somebody who is directly responsible for repayment to be responsible. Waht if the real estate market turns south and suddenly AKT can't sell his land and make the profit he's anticipating. Is he the guy on the hook for guaranteeing payback or is it somebody else? Risk is everything here for the lender and they won't assume the risk. Who does that?
What RE is doing amounts to bait and switch. Only it's a bait and dump. He gets you to buy into a possibility that somebody else will do this with private money. You the voter want to believe him because he's giving you something that sounds better. Than after shooting down Q & R in the election, you expect to see this private deal materialize. And what you end up with is another dead end idea that doesn't work because nobody will be that person ready to accept the risk. AKT won't do that because all he wanted in the first place is his rezoned land. His quidproquo is just to deposit a percentage into some fund. Who is the risk man? NOBODY - dead deal. RE shrugs his shoulders and says it's not his fault.
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kupman
Starter
This is about the arena and designing a pleasant city. I live in this city so this may be more important to me than you. We can't all leave our toxic fums behind for others to breath as we escape to the land of trees after we have enjoyed the fruits of Sacramento. Is there something wrong with wanting to improve the quality of my life and the air I breath? Would you prefer that we continue to increase air pollution in this city so that you may not be inconvenienced?
...more arena.
I doubt "my point" was as elusive for most people as it seems to have been for you. The only way the city might "own and control" a downtown arena would be in selecting who might appear there when the Kings aren't--and even then, the Maloofs would rake in the profits from that. It hardly seems like "control", when the Maloofs rake in all the profit from the arena--even events not related to the Kings!!!! I'd hate to see the latter leave Sacramento, but if they do, so be it. The city should not and will not be extorted by a couple of Las Vegas carpetbaggers!
I doubt "my point" was as elusive for most people as it seems to have been for you. The only way the city might "own and control" a downtown arena would be in selecting who might appear there when the Kings aren't--and even then, the Maloofs would rake in the profits from that. It hardly seems like "control", when the Maloofs rake in all the profit from the arena--even events not related to the Kings!!!! I'd hate to see the latter leave Sacramento, but if they do, so be it. The city should not and will not be extorted by a couple of Las Vegas carpetbaggers!
Well, for most of us, they nailed one of the 3. It can be cheap.
What works in SF and NY doesn't necessarily work in Sacramento (for the vast majority, anyways), and wishing that it did doesn't make it any better.....
I love the idea of going to a game on light rail, but light rail doesn't go anywhere useful. No Sac State. No ARCO. No airport. No Arden Fair Mall. No Elk Grove. No West Sac.
I live in Elk Grove. It goes to south Sac, which no person in their right mind would want to park and ride there in the dark. Perfect! I can drive to Folsom and catch it there for the ride into town!
You aren't fighting the IDEA of light rail here, you are fighting a lousy implementation of light rail that eliminates ridership based on where it goes, or more importantly, doesn't go.
I lived in Sacramento for over 40 years, so you can stop the "it's more important to me than you." My family still lives in that area, including my grandchildren. SIX generations of my family have lived in Sacramento, so I think I can talk about my home town without having to actually live there at this point in time.
Since this is rapidly turning into a very ugly discussion and you're making a lot of erroneous assumptions. I'm not going to continue.
Light rail isn't adequate. Make it adequate and maybe people will use it. Try forcing it down people's throats and they'll fight you every step of the way.
This isn't the time for the city/county to try and foster some kind of new agenda into the scenario.
Regardless, I'm done arguing about this because it's no longer about the arena.
Kingzrool
Starter
Well that certainly borders on a personal attack. Something tells me that there are things that you could be doing that would have much more positive effect on your air quality than making statements like this in cyberspace.
This public transportation thread is not really relevant. Sacramento clearly does not have the public transportation required to ignore the parking needs. If you really are an environmentalist, I would hope that you would be excited to see these guys having to clean up the mess of the railyard. It is in the middle of a city, too late for a nature sanctuary. Why develope on some plot of land that is still supporting an ecosystem? If you are just plain "antidevelopment", I sympathize but it is just not realistic.
I got an idea - why don't you organize a citizen group to influence your cities public transportation policies?
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kupman
Starter
OMG, you guys are driving me nuts. I just want fewer reasons for 18,000 people to show up downtown in their cars and SUVs making streets more congested and the air more polluted. It can be done. Look at Portland for crying out loud. My point is if you build a giant tarmac around the new arena people will have no reason to use buses or light rail. Public transit will have no reason to improve.
If you really want the vast majority of people showing up in their cars and SUVs then the thing really should be built away from downtown.
VF, if your family does live here, you should be very interested in having them breathe clean air.
I am not a tree hugging environmentalist. I am not even liberal. However, Sacramento needs reasons to use and improve public transportation or we will have some of the worst air pollution in the nation.
It is remarkable, I provide a story (about Denver) on how it is possible to use public transportation to get to a game and enjoy the ride and I hear reasons why it will never work here. It really does amaze me. But hey, build your giant, ugly parking lot if that is what you require.
If you really want the vast majority of people showing up in their cars and SUVs then the thing really should be built away from downtown.
VF, if your family does live here, you should be very interested in having them breathe clean air.
I am not a tree hugging environmentalist. I am not even liberal. However, Sacramento needs reasons to use and improve public transportation or we will have some of the worst air pollution in the nation.
It is remarkable, I provide a story (about Denver) on how it is possible to use public transportation to get to a game and enjoy the ride and I hear reasons why it will never work here. It really does amaze me. But hey, build your giant, ugly parking lot if that is what you require.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Unfortunately I fear the car culture of anyplace but Frisco in California virtually precludes consideration of mass transit as legit, despite many of the nations biggest cities finding it not just useful, but indispensable (not to mention far less aggravating than driving bumper to bumper + chewing up $3 gas).
It works folks. Chicken and the egg as for quality, but not only does it work done right, it actually makes the experience NICER + plays in well with a redeveloped downtown area full of nice shops and restaraunts. Assuming of course the Maloofs don't get their way and turn the entire area into a new Mather Air Force base on the river.
It works folks. Chicken and the egg as for quality, but not only does it work done right, it actually makes the experience NICER + plays in well with a redeveloped downtown area full of nice shops and restaraunts. Assuming of course the Maloofs don't get their way and turn the entire area into a new Mather Air Force base on the river.
kupman-
Point is, we are probably YEARS away from having any additional improvements on light rail in Sacramento - and I know, because our firm is doing some of the geotechnical studies for the additional lines.
Wishing that light rail was safe and went somewhere useful gets you absolutely nowhere.
In an ideal world, yes, everyone would use mass transit to get to the new arena. Heck, I'd like to use it to get to the airport too so I wouldn't have to pay for parking when I take a trip. But it doesn't, no matter how much I wish it did.
Similarly, wishing that single women would park at the Florin station and take LR around town ain't happening, no matter how much you wish they did.
You are trying to beat it into our heads that everyone should be just like you, personal fears, needs, and desires be damned. You know what? We get it. Doesn't mean you are right, though.
The light rail system, as currently designed, is pointless for many folks given the coverage and safety limitations. It doesn't go where it needs to and it isn't safe in a lot of areas it covers. And just saying that more middle-class folks should ride it anyways to improve the image of light rail is like saying the best way to keep a rabid dog from biting you is to put your hand back in it's cage. You have to address the problems first before the usage will increase.
Point is, we are probably YEARS away from having any additional improvements on light rail in Sacramento - and I know, because our firm is doing some of the geotechnical studies for the additional lines.
Wishing that light rail was safe and went somewhere useful gets you absolutely nowhere.
In an ideal world, yes, everyone would use mass transit to get to the new arena. Heck, I'd like to use it to get to the airport too so I wouldn't have to pay for parking when I take a trip. But it doesn't, no matter how much I wish it did.
Similarly, wishing that single women would park at the Florin station and take LR around town ain't happening, no matter how much you wish they did.
You are trying to beat it into our heads that everyone should be just like you, personal fears, needs, and desires be damned. You know what? We get it. Doesn't mean you are right, though.
The light rail system, as currently designed, is pointless for many folks given the coverage and safety limitations. It doesn't go where it needs to and it isn't safe in a lot of areas it covers. And just saying that more middle-class folks should ride it anyways to improve the image of light rail is like saying the best way to keep a rabid dog from biting you is to put your hand back in it's cage. You have to address the problems first before the usage will increase.
kupman
Starter
So you are saying I was being a little dogmatic?
Didn't mean to be. Just got a little hot under the collar with some of remarks.
I do not think that everyone should take public transit for the saftey reasons you cite. However, to think that the arena needs as many parking spots as Arco is absurd to me. How many people will already be downtown for one reason or another? How many fans from Placerville, EDH, Folsom, Granite Bay, Rancho Cordovo and even parts of Sacramento can take light rail safely down the 50 corridor? How many fans could use a public bus that is designated for the sole purpose of transporting fans from Rocklin and Roseville to the game and back (like I did in Denver)?
There are several safe, cheap, efficient and even fun ways to arrive at a game or event downtown. VF, if you want to drive that is fine and I understand. However, 18,000 fans do not need to arrive by car as they do now at Arco. Maybe only 60-70% of them.
Didn't mean to be. Just got a little hot under the collar with some of remarks.I do not think that everyone should take public transit for the saftey reasons you cite. However, to think that the arena needs as many parking spots as Arco is absurd to me. How many people will already be downtown for one reason or another? How many fans from Placerville, EDH, Folsom, Granite Bay, Rancho Cordovo and even parts of Sacramento can take light rail safely down the 50 corridor? How many fans could use a public bus that is designated for the sole purpose of transporting fans from Rocklin and Roseville to the game and back (like I did in Denver)?
There are several safe, cheap, efficient and even fun ways to arrive at a game or event downtown. VF, if you want to drive that is fine and I understand. However, 18,000 fans do not need to arrive by car as they do now at Arco. Maybe only 60-70% of them.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I don't think the arena would open until 2010, no? And there is the little issue of that other 1/2 billion in the ballot initiative...
ShatteredVision
Bench
Can't say the same about Dodger Stadium.
Although nobody left the game early.
Might be easier to get out of there when the fans ditch the game in the 7th.
Although nobody left the game early.
Might be easier to get out of there when the fans ditch the game in the 7th.
slugking50
All-Star
I get out of Arco and on the Freeway in 8-10 minutes after the horn sounds..
D-Mass
Starter
True...Staples is easy in, easy out. I was just making the point that LA, without any good mass transit, is a mess as a whole. And since people have become so reliant on their cars, they don't utilize the tiny bit of mass transit that LA has attempted to develop.
The Giants paid for it so they can charge whatever they want
The Giants built their stadium on private money. They can charge whatever they want. The Kings want to build the arena on public money and still want to charge top dollar for everything. If the Maloofs want to pay for the arena with private money they too can charge whatever they want. But being that this is paid for by a tax, prices should NOT BE near the top of the league for cost. Prices for the game should be at league average at the most. Pay the rent and get charged a cover charge. Great idea for sacramento.
The Giants built their stadium on private money. They can charge whatever they want. The Kings want to build the arena on public money and still want to charge top dollar for everything. If the Maloofs want to pay for the arena with private money they too can charge whatever they want. But being that this is paid for by a tax, prices should NOT BE near the top of the league for cost. Prices for the game should be at league average at the most. Pay the rent and get charged a cover charge. Great idea for sacramento.
kennadog
Dog On It!
And you apparently ignore facts. MSE has lost money 4 or 5 years out of the 8 they have owned the Kings. They are projecting losing money 15 out of the 30 years of the lease. The JPA woould just sit back and collect rent. No responsibility, no worry about how to cover operating loses in bad years. So the taxpayers wouldn't have cough up money to cover those losses. You want big-time control? Then you have to accept big-time risk. I'm kind of glad the Maloofs have been covering millions in loses out of their own pocket.
The 6th richest man, Paul Allen, went bankrupt on ownership of the Rose Garden and the Blazers. He makes the Maloofs look like paupers, who are nowhere to be found on Forbes list of the richest people in the world.
NBA owners, particularly in smaller market cities don't make money running a team. They make money selling a team. To think the Maloofs are going to be raking in the dough is just to ignore reality. To they want to make money, sure. But for many NBA teams, they'll be happy with just not losing money.
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Kingsgurl
Starter
Green King- You act as if the cost of the Arena is the only cost involved with operating a franchise. Let me see if I understand how you think the Maloofs should run things. They should pay to build the Arena, which they will then occupy for roughly 1/4 of the available nights. Probably, they should just let the city book whoever they want on the other, open nights, you know, so the city can make some money. Then, they should lower ticket prices and parking prices, hell, they should probably buy light rail passes for season ticket holders, you know, just to encourage them to ride it. Losing money on the franchise half the time isn't good enough. They should lose money, and lot's of it, EVERY year, just to show how committed they are.
Parking, in this scenario IS a big deal, since it is currently a substantial revenue stream for the team. It's pretty simple math. Less spots=more money per car to park to generate the same revenue. There is no lucrative TV deal, there is no large corporate base, ticket prices are already too high, so there aren't very many options to generate cash flow to make up for lost revenue.
Parking, in this scenario IS a big deal, since it is currently a substantial revenue stream for the team. It's pretty simple math. Less spots=more money per car to park to generate the same revenue. There is no lucrative TV deal, there is no large corporate base, ticket prices are already too high, so there aren't very many options to generate cash flow to make up for lost revenue.
Purple Reign
Starter
If this is supposed to be modeled after Conseco and Fed Ex, and both of those metropolitan cities are making it with 2,000 or less parking spaces, whay can't Sacramento make it with 2,000 or less spaces.
I don't understand where the Maloofs are coming from on this. If this is all about revenue, than they need to find another way to recoup that money AND SIGN THE DOG GONE DEAL!!!!
Besides I too think it is a good idea to have less parking, more pedestrian and public travel so that the business can get traffic. That is why the building is to be downtown isn't it.
I don't understand where the Maloofs are coming from on this. If this is all about revenue, than they need to find another way to recoup that money AND SIGN THE DOG GONE DEAL!!!!
Besides I too think it is a good idea to have less parking, more pedestrian and public travel so that the business can get traffic. That is why the building is to be downtown isn't it.
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