Bee: Maloof demands for arena unusual

[kupman]

If this is supposed to be modeled after Conseco and Fed Ex, and both of those metropolitan cities are making it with 2,000 or less parking spaces, whay can't Sacramento make it with 2,000 or less spaces.

I don't understand where the Maloofs are coming from on this. If this is all about revenue, than they need to find another way to recoup that money AND SIGN THE DOG GONE DEAL!!!!

Besides I too think it is a good idea to have less parking, more pedestrian and public travel so that the business can get traffic. That is why the building is to be downtown isn't it.

Uh, Purple Reign, take my advice and save your breath or should I say - save your fingers. You are likely to get carpal tunnel trying explain to people why 8,000 parking spaces around the arena may not be the best way to go.

Just about every other metropolitan area in this nation and all of Europe and much of Asia can transport themselves with something besides a car or an SUV. For some reason it will never work in Sacramento. Evidently we require 8,000 spaces.

 

[VF21]

Uh, Purple Reign, take my advice and save your breath or should I say - save your fingers. You are likely to get carpal tunnel trying explain to people why 8,000 parking spaces around the arena may not be the best way to go.

Just about every other metropolitan area in this nation and all of Europe and much of Asia can transport themselves with something besides a car or an SUV. For some reason it will never work in Sacramento. Evidently we require 8,000 spaces.

How long have you lived in Sacramento? Light rail has only been around since the early 80s or so. And large parts of the county grew a lot faster than any kind of public transit could hope to keep up with. Now, they're trying to play catch-up, and quite frankly, they aren't doing a very good job of it. Sacramento is HUGE, when you consider the square miles involved and the number of communities that are growing like weeds.

Most of us are trying to have a legitimate discussion. You, however, seem to feel your opinion is the only one that matters. While the rest of us have been willing to discuss some kinds of compromises, you insist we need to park our cars - God knows where - and ride a form of public transportation that isn't even available to a good number of us.

Europe and Asia are entirely different situations. To bring them up is just silly.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion but the rest of us are entitled to disagree. I think we've done a pretty good job of explaining WHY your idea for public transport won't work in a lot of cases. If it works for you, great. Use it. But please do not tell me or anyone else how they'll be allowed to get to the games. There are a lot of different circumstances that come into play.

If they want to establish an effective AND SAFE light rail system that serves more of the surroundings areas, cool. They should do it first and then promote usage.

You cannot plan your parking around something that doesn't even exist at the present time. Parking spaces are important, both to the Maloofs, the surrounding businesses AND the people who will be coming to the new arena and surrounding attractions.

Make a contingency plan, if necessary. Provide for some kind of conversion for some of the parking should light rail and improved public transporation negate some of the need.

 

[kupman]

While the rest of us have been willing to discuss some kinds of compromises, you insist we need to park our cars - God knows where - and ride a form of public transportation that isn't even available to a good number of us.

Feel free to park in a 4,000 - 5,000 spot parking lot just outside of the arena. I am not telling you that you cannot take your car. 4,000 -5,000 spots is a generous compromise. Demanding 8,000 spots is showing no compromise on your part. Did you notice how many spots are available for Pacer and Grizzily games (and please do not give me another "we are just different" answer again)?

 

[VF21]

Don't give you the "we are different" answer? Well, we are different. The midwest and east do not have anywhere near the love affair with cars that people here in California have.

Memphis already had a very good public transit system in existence when Fex Ex was built. I'm not sure about Indiana.

UNTIL an adequate public transit system in Sacramento exists, it's foolish to talk about only providing limited parking spots when they can prove - and have - that 8,000 spots are being used regularly at Arco.

Those 8,000 cars - for whatever reasons - are being used right now to get to games. If the people in those cars want to attend games at the new arena, they have to be able to get there via a form of transportation they feel fits their needs.

What you're still not realizing is that you can't force people to take light rail. There has to be a tangible benefit to people to use public transportation, over and above the ethereal tree-hugging stuff.

I've stated above that there could be some kind of conversion plan built in ahead of time to address the parking spots if and when a serviceable light rail option is initiated.

The land right now is a vast wasteland so they wouldn't be killing trees or anything to make the parking structure (whichever way they end up going).

 

[kupman]

Don't give you the "we are different" answer? Well, we are different. The midwest and east do not have anywhere near the love affair with cars that people here in California have.

Memphis already had a very good public transit system in existence when Fex Ex was built. I'm not sure about Indiana.

UNTIL an adequate public transit system in Sacramento exists, it's foolish to talk about only providing limited parking spots when they can prove - and have - that 8,000 spots are being used regularly at Arco.

Those 8,000 cars - for whatever reasons - are being used right now to get to games. If the people in those cars want to attend games at the new arena, they have to be able to get there via a form of transportation they feel fits their needs.

What you're still not realizing is that you can't force people to take light rail. There has to be a tangible benefit to people to use public transportation, over and above the ethereal tree-hugging stuff.

I've stated above that there could be some kind of conversion plan built in ahead of time to address the parking spots if and when a serviceable light rail option is initiated.

The land right now is a vast wasteland so they wouldn't be killing trees or anything to make the parking structure (whichever way they end up going).

First, I have lived most of my life in the Midwest and I beg to differ about the whole car love affair thing. Second, we have 4 years if the thing is passed to plan for transportation. Third, light rail does not go many places, but it does already exist downtown. It would be wise to use it to its fullest potential. Last, light rail is safe in Folsom and down much of the 50 corridor. Probably much safer than driving on the freeways.

However, you almost make my point for me:

What you're still not realizing is that you can't force people to take light rail. There has to be a tangible benefit to people to use public transportation, over and above the ethereal tree-hugging stuff.

No you cannot force them. However, you can passively encourage them to use it if you do not make parking so darn easy and the center piece of the transportation. I myself would probably drive to the game if I know there will be a parking spot and it only costs $10. Making parking at least a little scarce and charge me $20-25 and I may look at alternatives. People will always gravitate towards the path of least resistance (the tangible benefit) and we do not always need to make car transport the path of least resistance. This results in fewer cars, less pollution and a more plesant experience for pedestrians.

 

[VF21]

I don't agree but it's clear the difference between us is pretty much at the genetic level. Neither is going to budge.

We'll see what happens. I think I can speak more accurately about the attitude of Sacramentans based on a lifetime of experience going back several generations.

The K Street Mall - now acknowledged to be a pretty dismal failure - was created to establish exactly what you're talking about with the "fewer cars, less pollution and more plesant (sic) experience for pedestrians."

I remember before the days of the K Street Mall. I was there when it was built, I watched the decline of the entire downtown area, and I even worked on a government study to help initiate light rail in Sacramento in the first place.

Yes, it would be wise to utilize light rail more effectively. But it's not going to happen until and unless people are convinced it's to their benefit to do so. You've already said you live close enough to walk, so you really don't have a horse in this race, do you?

 

[kupman]

I do not live close enough to walk.....not even close. I would have to consider the same modes of transport as you. I just do no want to be breathing LA quality air for the rest of my life.

I have not lived in Sacramento too long, but I think that you may have lived here too long. The reason I engage in you in this heated conversation is your opinion is shared with many others in the area and it just simply amazes me

 

[1kingzfan]

I think BOTH SIDES are mostly missing the point in this thread.

The Maloofs do not care about parking per se. They do not care about having 8,000 parking spaces from an operational standpoint or believe that less spaces will have some impact on how many people come to arena events. As many have so aptly pointed out, less spaces works in other major cities. So they do not believe that their attendance would go down if only 2,000 spaces were provided.

They solely care about maintaining a major portion of their overall revenue stream for operating an arena.

If the Maloofs compromise and accept only 2,000 spaces, a reduction of 6,000 from what they currently enjoy (at least for Kings games), then they need a viable (slam dunk) way to replace that revenue. And it has to be as SURE a thing as the parking receipts they now receive, or else they are creating greater risk for themselves in running the business. It must be a SURE thing.

Losing the revenue of 6,000 spaces amounts to 44 home games X 6,000 spaces X $10/space = $2.6 million per year, JUST considering Kings games. If you add the other dates in there that fill the arena calendar, we're probably talking about $5 million per year or thereabouts. If you consider a probable hike in parking from $10 to $15 when they move downtown, then you're talking about 50% more than these figures that would be lost to helping the bottom line.

Where can the brothers squeeze out another $5 million or so per year? Kingsgurl aptly points out that corporate sponsorship is likely close to being maxxed out. So where do you generate that kind of dough?

You can raise prices of things selling in the arena itself, food and team store stuff, with the risk of less patronage, smaller volume. NOT as sure a thing as the parking take for each event. You can raise Kings ticket prices again, but we know the majority of folks (on both sides of the measure fence) would not be thrilled with that approach.

As rich as these guys are, they are merely trying to make this a viable business in a business sector where it is tough to make a consistent nickel year in and year out.

So, before you criticize, where would YOU get another $5 million per year that was as sure a thing as parking receipts?

 

[kennadog]

I hope the end result is less than 8,000 parking spaces, but you are right 1kingzfan, the revenue is the bottom line. I do think they should be able to increase revenue in other areas with a new arena.

With more room/wider concourses and even upper and lower large councourses, they should be able to generate more revenue from concessions of all kinds.

With a modern arena and the ability to handle faster turn-arounds and larger events, they should be able to book more events over the course of a year.

So, it would seem they should be able to lose some percent of current parking spaces, based on the ability for a modern arena to generate more revenue.

On the other hand, they have lost money overall for a number of years and project they will still lose money have the years of the lease. I can't blame them for wanting to get as much as they can in return for a 30-year comitment, in which they accept all operational risks and losses for the opportunity to reap some rewards.

On the other hand, I'm approaching arena burn-out.

 

[VF21]

I have not lived in Sacramento too long, but I think that you may have lived here too long. The reason I engage in you in this heated conversation is your opinion is shared with many others in the area and it just simply amazes me

wow. just wow...

I am honestly speechless.

Have a nice evening.

 

[kupman]

I am not missing a thing. I fully understand that the Maloofs request for 8,000 spaces is purely economical for them and I say shame on them. I am putting forth my strong opinion that quality of air and less traffic congestion is more important for the future of the city. As Kennadog has written, the Maloofs have ample ways for recouping the income for less parking.

 

[kupman]

wow. just wow...

I am honestly speechless.

Have a nice evening.

I am not saying that you should move or anything. Please do not take that quite so personally. I am just saying that many people that have lived here for a long time just cannot fathom public transportation actually working......that is what amazes me compared to others area in which I have lived.

 

[1kingzfan]

As Kennadog has written, the Maloofs have ample ways for recouping the income for less parking.

I think what you are missing is that having a few more food choices, as in concession areas, perhaps a couple of team stores instead of one, and a wider concourse to even make the securing of those things more enjoyable does NOT guarantee another $5 million per year.

It's NOT the same thing as parking receipts which are a slam dunk for revenue. Much greater business risk for a very significant revenue stream.

Oh, and on the topic of minimizing air pollution and auto traffic downtown because of all this, the arena is only a little bitty piece of the whole picture. Just wait til all those thousands of people come down there to LIVE...MOST will have CARS. Just think of all those new businesses with workers and patrons, thousands more with CARS.

CARS, CARS, CARS....

I have confidence in the development planners and traffic engineers that work for them that they will minimize the congestion, but the sheer volume of cars in the area will go WAY UP. If you live downtown, that's a tradeoff that you will have to live with in exchange for the other incredibly huge benefits of this development nearby your home or rental place.

 

[Warhawk]

I am not missing a thing. I fully understand that the Maloofs request for 8,000 spaces is purely economical for them and I say shame on them. I am putting forth my strong opinion that quality of air and less traffic congestion is more important for the future of the city. As Kennadog has written, the Maloofs have ample ways for recouping the income for less parking.

Shame on them?!?!?! For goodness sake, why? For trying not to go broke while keeping the team in Sacramento? Yeah, sheesh, that's just silly on their part, isn't it. Maybe you should be their business manager....

 

[1kingzfan]

And just maybe, maybe ... the Maloofs' business plan to make a reasonable profit for running a new arena may include the need for a lot MORE revenue than what they currently get at Arco.

Remember, they have to pony up $70 million + to pay off the City loan. I can see where that little transfer of funds, a radically different red line item, could seriously affect the balance sheet for this business.

 

[Warhawk]

I am just saying that many people that have lived here for a long time just cannot fathom public transportation actually working......that is what amazes me compared to others area in which I have lived.

You still don't get it. I can fathom it working. And sincerely hope they can get it to the point it does.

I've ridden subways in NY, London and Paris. I've used the Europass to travel across countries. It worked GREAT!

Problem is, it doesn't work right now in Sacramento because of implementation. For all kinds of reasons. Access. Safety. Convenience.

It doesn't go to most of the places it should and the places it does go are OK for some commuters in certain very limited areas but is highly unsafe in some of them as well.

You can't just wave a magic wand and have these issues go away. No matter how much pixie dust you sprinkle at the same time.

You are trying to convince us reality is utopia and we are trying to tell you it isn't.

Again, I would LOVE to be able to catch a train in the town I live for a safe ride to the game. But light rail isn't in my town. It isn't safe to ride from stations near my town. It doesn't go to the arena anyways. It may not be near the new arena when the arena is constructed. It may cost more to ride light rail for a party of 4 than it would just to pay for parking.

 

[kennadog]

I am not missing a thing. I fully understand that the Maloofs request for 8,000 spaces is purely economical for them and I say shame on them. I am putting forth my strong opinion that quality of air and less traffic congestion is more important for the future of the city. As Kennadog has written, the Maloofs have ample ways for recouping the income for less parking.

You misunderstood me. I did not say the other possibilities were ample. MSE is having a hard time staying out of the red and has most years. The grwing inadequacies and maintenance needs of Arco only exacerbate the problem. Those other possible increases in revenue may only help them get closer to breaking even.

Operating an NBA franchise in a small market isn't going to make MSE rich and we shouldn't expect MSE to run the team or arena as a charitable contribution. If the City wants to minimize parking, then they have to figure out a way to replace the parking revenue stream to MSE in a sufficient amount to make it reasonable for them to operate a franchise and arena in Sacramento.

 

[kupman]

If the Maloofs really cannot survive without 100% of their current parking revenue here is the solution: 4,000 parking spots x double the price of current parking ($20) = the same revenue. I have no doubt that they will still be able to fill a 4,000 -5,000 spot lot @$20. If you really, really don't like it, pile more people into your car or find another way to get there.

 

[1kingzfan]

Once again, the Maloofs' financial plan to move to a new arena may have ALREADY included a parking increase on 8,000 spaces in order to earn the revenue they need to turn a nickel. So saying that they can get the same amount of money with half the parking spaces and doubling the charge per customer only gets them the revenue they currently get now at Arco. So this idea may not fly.

In fact, I doubt it does.

 

[BigWaxer]

Not to toss in a wrench but I thought that is what a new arena was all about, more luxury suites and so on... that not going to make up the difference.

I was upset at first about all this, as the facts came out I realized, the Maloofs plain and simple do not want to be here. Someone brought up Orlando... What is Orlando's sister... Anaheim.

 

[VF21]

^^Once again, BigWaxer, you are, I believe, missing the point.

It's not the Maloofs don't want to be here. Those kinds of comments STILL have no basis in fact whatsoever. They want to be here, they just want to be able to get the best deal possible for their business, which operates in the red more than the black.

If the Maloofs plain and simple didn't want to be here, they could put the team on the market OR they could do any number of things to submarine the team. They are doing neither.

They're standing firm on wanting to get something that will meet their needs before they commit to a 30-year lease. Are they totally right? No. Is the city/county totally right? No.

The MAIN problem with this is that the city/county dinked around on this for a long time. At the last minute, a compromise deal was ironed out to at least get something on the ballot.

It's not perfect. They're still ironing out details, which is the ultimate example of putting the cart before the horse. But to continue to use the refrain that the Maloofs are just trying to find a way to leave is silly. They could find a way if they wanted to.

The only thing I fault the Maloofs for is not loving Sacramento as much as some of us do and wanting to put their business interests ahead of my personal feelings. Well, that's the way the cookie crumbles. I'm so tired of looking for hidden reasons for why people do things. It usually turns out the most obvious reason is the real one. The most obvious reason for the Maloofs to stand firm about parking revenue is because they don't like to operate in the red. And I don't understand how anyone could really fault them for that.

 

[BMiller52]

Not to toss in a wrench but I thought that is what a new arena was all about, more luxury suites and so on... that not going to make up the difference.

I was upset at first about all this, as the facts came out I realized, the Maloofs plain and simple do not want to be here. Someone brought up Orlando... What is Orlando's sister... Anaheim.

What does that have to do with anything?

 

[ShatteredVision]

In the Bay, I think BART is a viable option during the day, but at least during the night, it can be a little intimidating to ride.

When it comes to light rail, nobody is going to be alone right after a game on the trains.

It's just when you get to the last stops on the line...

 

[Warhawk]

In the Bay, I think BART is a viable option during the day, but at least during the night, it can be a little intimidating to ride.

When it comes to light rail, nobody is going to be alone right after a game on the trains.

It's just when you get to the last stops on the line...

It's not necessarily on the train I was thinking about, more like once you get to the station and:

a) hope you aren't accosted at the stop

b) hope your car is still there.

 

[ShatteredVision]

Sac does indeed have a high rate of car jackings, they would probably have to make every station have some sort of secured parking structure, much like they have in the bay.

With BART, you're not allowed in the station concourse without a ticket and the system is normally separated from street level (above or underground).

Light Rail is mostly surface level and each station is accessible from all sides.

It would take some serious $$$ to design safer stations...

 

[GreenKing]

Great so the people at lightrail add more "rent a cops" for security. Security guards are innafective. They are there to watch and report. If there is a Problem they have to call the police. Lightrail sucks. You cant even get from interstate 80 to 50 without going downtown first. Sacramento messed up when they were planning public transpertation. It's sad but it's true.

Sac does indeed have a high rate of car jackings, they would probably have to make every station have some sort of secured parking structure, much like they have in the bay.

With BART, you're not allowed in the station concourse without a ticket and the system is normally separated from street level (above or underground).

Light Rail is mostly surface level and each station is accessible from all sides.

It would take some serious $$$ to design safer stations...