Basketball height prejudice? (with poll)
- Thread starter ppine
- Start date
Maybe FO is just waiting until closer to the deadline when PO picture is much clearer and someone might have an idea that energy high-efficiency 6th man is what separates their team from reaching second round, and is willing to part with a good asset. Right now Douglas or Cole is all you get for expiring guard who's looking to be a starter and a big payday. Those are useful guys but you can pick those for half MLE in the off-season.
The thread is about height prejudice. IT is freaking short. Why wouldn't the conversation go to him? You pretending it might be anything else is disingenuous at best.
The poll was about IT being a sixth man as a direct result of comments in the thread which pretty much PROVE the problems most of us have with IT aren't about him being too short in general but about him being better as a sixth man than as a starter. You can choose to make it about some kind of prejudice but it doesn't make it true.
Yes, because the only reason a team keeps its players is because they help the team win. That's why there are so many teams around the league winning 50+ games every season and not making changes to their rosters. And because there are SO many available and good options that we could trade IT for salary-wise /sarcasm. Just because IT isn't necessarily the worse of our problems (which I find debatable) or just because he's the best option that we may have now doesn't mean that he's not part of the problem! Having to choose between eating trash and not eating at all doesn't make eating trash a good option!
Offensively, IT gets his points. But we don't win games as a result of it. I agree that may just be speculation on my part, but whatever it is the facts show that we haven't been winning. Our defense is still terrible despite practically overhauling the roster and getting a defensive coach. Maybe at some point you want to actually consider that IT is the problem.
I
I~true
Guest
Has It ever missed a game due ti injury. He seems very durable.
Padrino
All-Star
to me, it is entirely irrelevant to ask whether or not isaiah thomas is the defensive problem on this kings team. and there is just a ridiculous amount of obfuscation embedded in the notion that some sort of "height prejudice" governs kf.com's criticism of IT's defensive play. it borders on madness to suggest something so asinine from within the context of a professional sport in which height and size are absolutely compelling factors to consider when building a roster...
that said, let me ask a much more relevant question, free of obfuscation: "is demarcus cousins going anywhere?" the answer to that question is "no," without need for qualification. big cuz is improving as a man defender, but he will always lack upward explosiveness and lateral mobility. this makes him a weak link as a team defender. until the kings acquire a frontcourt partner for cousins who can effectively protect the rim (a much rarer prospect than many around these parts want to admit), they will continue to be regularly shredded by teams with a guard who has even an inkling towards dribble penetration. the first and last points of attack simply cannot collapse nearly every single play, as they currently do with this kings' defense...
so, once again, "is demarcus cousins going anywhere?" the answer to that question is "no," without need for qualification. is isaiah thomas then expendable, given how problematic it is to start thomas alongside cousins? the answer to that question is "yes," especially if trading thomas brings back two-way or defensive talent in return. i'd prefer it if the kings could acquire a starting PG who is a capable defender while re-signing IT to a reasonable sixth man's contract, but i'm also not one to suggest that a small-market franchise in the middle of its eighth straight losing season can have its cake and eat it, too. if this team is to improve, then the front office must be willing to sacrifice offense in favor of defensive improvement. i don't care if isaiah thomas is the defensive problem on this kings team or not. he's part of the problem (and yes, his height and his size are also part of the problem), and he's a movable asset who can be used to acquire talent that satisfies areas of need...
Uncia03
Starter
I feel fairly confident that this is exactly what will happen. But you can't really pose this question in the way that you do (and you pose it in such a way that the 'obvious' answer is that they are not making the 'obvious' trade because IT isn't the issue we all think he is) when there is still plenty of time for the FO to do exactly that.
Once again I think it's important to look at Derrick Williams. He came in and played very good basketball for us. As a young 22 year-old player it's abundantly clear that he has NBA game and from a talent perspective it was a clear win for us in getting him for Luc. But as soon as we brought in Rudy it pretty much doomed him for us on this team. He's got around a 5 million dollar contract and he's a young attractive asset that just doesn't fit on this team any longer.
You can now package both him and IT together as a very talented and very cap friendly duo and have that as a base of a whole lot of trades.
We've said all along that the hardest part of a potential trade with IT is that he makes no money so it's hard to get equal talent in return. But when you package him with Williams all-of-a-sudden you have some heft in that contract, with the talent still way outclassing the cost.
We cannot trade Williams till January 26th. But once we hit that date, Williams will be available in trades.
So my stance to your question is pretty simple. If the trade deadline passes and we have not traded IT then your question about 'Is IT really the problem and is it really that easy to fix?' is absolutely valid and it will have to be one to discuss.
But since we can't even create the ideal package for him yet by pairing him with Williams, that question is a bit premature. I think the likelihood that IT is traded is quite high, especially if the team is talking to his agent and he's wanting an 8mil+ pay-day next year as a starting PG.
Come on, Chubbs; it's staring you right in the face. The OP was clearly talking about Al Horford.
Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
It is annoying to see the poll added to this thread. The Kings have a successful point guard, and everyone seems to want to see him demoted to a sixth man. Are you going to start Jimmer? Then you can see some terrible defense. RM? Who do you want in his place? When was the last time the Kings had a starting PG with IT's numbers? Trade him for whom?
In the spirit of the thread, I was hoping people might comment on absurd notions like moving Rudy Gay to the 2. Since people think length is always positive, it is logical some people might buy into this idea. How can you have a player at 6'8" playing that position? Donte Green was the other guy that people thought could play the 2 0r 3 at 6"11". Where is Green today?
If height was the determining factor Monute Bol would be in the Hall of Fame.
Snipping on a losing team is a sign that no one has given up.
You have to use what you have. The Kings are willing to make some trades. Derrick Williams is an example of a talented athlete that so far has not had much impact. It takes time. McLemore is a case where he has been exposed to too much too soon. The guy has talent, but is not productive. It is telling that people want to put IT on the bench or trade him while scoring an average of what 18 points and 7 assists. Meanwhile McLemore has games all the time where he scores 5 or less with no assists. His defense is terrible. He is viewed as a player for the future. People can't see their own prejudice.
Most astute basketball observers when confronted with a player with obviously positive attributes would appreciate those and talk about how to improve the weaknesses. In IT's case there is no benefit of the doubt. Sarcasm is especially annoying.
Cousins as a big man, gets all sorts of benefit of the doubt. He has made major strides in his mental outlook, but is still near the top of the league in technicals. If we want to talk about his defense, there is lots of room for improvement. He was outscored in the loss to the Bobcats as an example. Where are the multiple threads about that? No one talks about how selfish Cousins is on offense.He consistently takes more shots than IT. If I coached him I would take the ball out of his hands on the break and wouldn't allow him to shoot much beyond 15 feet. It takes him too far from the hoop. Cousins has all-star support. People want to trade IT. Many nights they have similar numbers and similar defense. I encourage people to look at team for what it is instead what they want it to be. You do not have to agree, you just have to discuss these topics like an adult.
In the spirit of the thread, I was hoping people might comment on absurd notions like moving Rudy Gay to the 2. Since people think length is always positive, it is logical some people might buy into this idea. How can you have a player at 6'8" playing that position? Donte Green was the other guy that people thought could play the 2 0r 3 at 6"11". Where is Green today?
If height was the determining factor Monute Bol would be in the Hall of Fame.
Snipping on a losing team is a sign that no one has given up.
You have to use what you have. The Kings are willing to make some trades. Derrick Williams is an example of a talented athlete that so far has not had much impact. It takes time. McLemore is a case where he has been exposed to too much too soon. The guy has talent, but is not productive. It is telling that people want to put IT on the bench or trade him while scoring an average of what 18 points and 7 assists. Meanwhile McLemore has games all the time where he scores 5 or less with no assists. His defense is terrible. He is viewed as a player for the future. People can't see their own prejudice.
Most astute basketball observers when confronted with a player with obviously positive attributes would appreciate those and talk about how to improve the weaknesses. In IT's case there is no benefit of the doubt. Sarcasm is especially annoying.
Cousins as a big man, gets all sorts of benefit of the doubt. He has made major strides in his mental outlook, but is still near the top of the league in technicals. If we want to talk about his defense, there is lots of room for improvement. He was outscored in the loss to the Bobcats as an example. Where are the multiple threads about that? No one talks about how selfish Cousins is on offense.He consistently takes more shots than IT. If I coached him I would take the ball out of his hands on the break and wouldn't allow him to shoot much beyond 15 feet. It takes him too far from the hoop. Cousins has all-star support. People want to trade IT. Many nights they have similar numbers and similar defense. I encourage people to look at team for what it is instead what they want it to be. You do not have to agree, you just have to discuss these topics like an adult.
Hadlowe
Starter
There's an entire army of straw men on fire here.
Nobody is saying that IT does not put up good numbers. He does. But you have to take the bad with the good. IT has a game tailor-made for a sixth man gunner. He scores well, creates for himself and others, speeds up the game, and plays not a lick of defense. His height is certainly a contributing factor there.
There are guys who play solid defense despite their height. IT isn't one of them. That isn't to say that he is incapable of playing defense. IT can play very good defense on occasion, and it always seems to coincide with when he thinks he is in premier matchup. Chris Paul, yep. Kyrie Irving, absolutely. Steph Curry, sure, why not. Jeff Teague or Kemba Walker, though, he does his thing on offense and takes the rest of the game off.
And, yes, Cousins plays some bad defense. If you can't have both Cousins and IT on the floor at the same time because of the defensive lapses, then IT is the one that needs to go. It is that simple.
Chubbs
Starter
Ppine, you made up quite a few arguments no one is making. It makes debate futile. The poll, for starters, was not a vote to demote our PG. Only the most maniacal jimmer or ray maniac is in favor of that.
Does he put up numbers? Yes. Would anyone else on the team put up anything like them? No. Do those numbers translate to wins? No.
Therefore they have to do something to make the team better. Well thought out reasons for trading him have been laid out. To me, he doesn't have a contract, the all star level player on the team does. If they can't play together, it's pretty simple what happens next.
Yet, some seem to want to make it that we want to trade him cause he's short. End of story.
Does he put up numbers? Yes. Would anyone else on the team put up anything like them? No. Do those numbers translate to wins? No.
Therefore they have to do something to make the team better. Well thought out reasons for trading him have been laid out. To me, he doesn't have a contract, the all star level player on the team does. If they can't play together, it's pretty simple what happens next.
Yet, some seem to want to make it that we want to trade him cause he's short. End of story.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Hadlowe
Starter
Nice rack.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
Is it too much to ask for you to at least have a semi-understanding of the arguments at hand rather than fabricating one point after another throughout your rant which really has nothing to do with anything anyone has said?
Glenn
Hall of Famer
The poll was added to show you that people ARE NOT DISCRIMINATING AGAINST IT because of his height. If they were, they wouldn't rate him so highly as a sixth man.
What is truly annoying is that you have an agenda, you're not going to budge from that agenda and you refuse to accept the obvious.
MOST OF US LIKE ISAIAH THOMAS. We just do not think he's the answer to the starting PG problem going forward. What part of those TWO SENTENCES do you not understand? And please, spare me all the other rhetoric. It's a very simple question.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Is there yelling in the house?
I was yelling for emphasis since he hasn't seemed to pay attention to any of the previous comments.
kupman
Starter
I know that it is not the point of the thread, but moving Gay to the #2 is not an absurd idea. His game reminds me a bit of Iceman - he can shoot from the outside and use his smooth, ballet-like moves to get to the basket. Iceman is 6'7" and is considered to be one of the best SGs of all-time.
With our situation at the #2, I would be entertained/intrigued to see it tried as a method to get BMac to the bench and Williams on the court more.
Gary
All-Star
I should have been more clear.. There are some people that SEEM to hate on IT for nothing more than his height. I am critical on him because his defense and if he had to switch defensively on the fly. I don't get what you meant about my top 10 quote. I voted 7-10 and I said he could be a top ten 6th man. That's pretty dang good. I wasn't trying to hate on him no matter what all the others voted for. If you think me voting 7-10 means I am hating on him then so be it.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I was yelling for emphasis since he hasn't seemed to pay attention to any of the previous comments.
It's frustrating. I have given up writing long notes as I know they will be ignored anyway. Maybe I have lost some of my ability. Keep it short and those who care will get the point. Those who will not get the point, will never get the point. This idea that we are exchanging info in the hopes that the person we are conversing with will read, digest, and try to understand is a folly. It is a shame that anyone has to resort to yelling.
Who? I think the vast majority here - an assumption I think is pretty much proven by the poll, BTW - think his height is a disadvantage when you put him up against other STARTING PG's in the league. Most people think quite highly of his skill, or he wouldn't be ranked by some 62% of poll respondents as in the TOP THREE sixth man candidates.
What Uncia03 is pointing out is the mere fact that you and you alone voted IT in the 7-10 range, while every other poll respondent voted him higher. You think he's top 10 and say it's not because of his height. Everyone else who replied put him in the top 6 so it's pretty clear they're not picking on him because of his height either - isn't it?
Glenn
Hall of Famer
You beat me to it.
Come on, man. We don't mind differing opinions (even if they are wrong.) We ARE a pretty smart crew though, so you have to bring your A game, which is what i love about this forum.
IT's height is an issue. That's all we said. It's OK for a physical limitation to be acknowledged. Especially in a sport where physical values are measured with regularity.
IT's height is an issue. That's all we said. It's OK for a physical limitation to be acknowledged. Especially in a sport where physical values are measured with regularity.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
"Herself."
The use of capital letters for emphasis is nothing new. As far as "asking stupid rhetorical questions," my bad. I thought you'd be able to provide an answer to a legitimate question. If you feel you're wasting your time, that's certainly your right. Interesting that you chose to make this about me instead of about the points I raised.
Have a good day. This "staff member" is off to the game.
GO KINGS!
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