Bagley not in opening night rotation

[pdxKingsFan]

Understood. My argument is that the Kings didn't put MBIII in a situation to succeed. No one in their right mind thinks that Bjelica and Marvin are the same type of player, but the Kings told Marvin to take on the role of floor spacer, sink or swim. That's not giving an opportunity. That's setting him up for failure.

Doing Marvin a favor would have been having him do pick and rolls all game long like they do with Holmes. Walton prefers Holmes. That's fine. But just putting MBIII on the court is not doing him a favor unless you're playing to his strengths.

Kings failed in thinking MBIII could play multiple positions and may not have him at his best spot in the offense but here's where I see the fault in the logic here:
They failed badly with the Dedmon signing, but Dedmon was supposed to be the spacing big and Bagley was supposed to get the easy buckets. But Dedmon was going to guard the stronger man on D which was supposed to allow Bagley's athleticism to cover the smaller 4. Dedmon was a flop, Bagley got hurt in game one and Holmes won the job and has consistently been better. Bagley has never been able to stay healthy long enough to reclaim that job, and frankly his health history means that he probably means they view him at risk in the paint because I am sure fingers get broken every night there.

Every argument that they should have pushed Holmes aside ignores the fact that for consistency's sake, Holmes would be getting the job back every 3-4 weeks after Bagley's next injury.

But the plan which blew up spectacularly was likely for Holmes to be the 4th big behind Bagley and Dedmon with Bjelica the primary third.


Now quite frankly, I don't see how you can be so down on what they did to Marvin when what they did was reward the guy who exceeded expectations, brought it every night, and won the job. Sure, that is horrific resource management of a #2 pick, but it was also that night one injury in year two that derailed the entire thing and the bubble was the only thing that saved the season for him. Then he promptly goes out and gets hurt early in year three. Now he's missed two preseason games due to knee soreness. How long can you keep trying to put the train on the tracks when it keeps derailing itself?

 

[Tetsujin]

Kings failed in thinking MBIII could play multiple positions and may not have him at his best spot in the offense but here's where I see the fault in the logic here:
They failed badly with the Dedmon signing, but Dedmon was supposed to be the spacing big and Bagley was supposed to get the easy buckets. But Dedmon was going to guard the stronger man on D which was supposed to allow Bagley's athleticism to cover the smaller 4. Dedmon was a flop, Bagley got hurt in game one and Holmes won the job and has consistently been better. Bagley has never been able to stay healthy long enough to reclaim that job, and frankly his health history means that he probably means they view him at risk in the paint because I am sure fingers get broken every night there.

Every argument that they should have pushed Holmes aside ignores the fact that for consistency's sake, Holmes would be getting the job back every 3-4 weeks after Bagley's next injury.

But the plan which blew up spectacularly was likely for Holmes to be the 4th big behind Bagley and Dedmon with Bjelica the primary third.


Now quite frankly, I don't see how you can be so down on what they did to Marvin when what they did was reward the guy who exceeded expectations, brought it every night, and won the job. Sure, that is horrific resource management of a #2 pick, but it was also that night one injury in year two that derailed the entire thing and the bubble was the only thing that saved the season for him. Then he promptly goes out and gets hurt early in year three. Now he's missed two preseason games due to knee soreness. How long can you keep trying to put the train on the tracks when it keeps derailing itself?

People can be forgiven for not remembering this but the narrative coming into the bubble was "Marvin Bagley is finally healthy enough to play again!" followed several days later by "Marvin Bagley severely injures foot and is out for the entirety of the bubble!"

The biggest impediment to Bagley getting rotation minutes on the Kings over his time with the team has been his own ligaments (and hand bones)

 

[Livinthedream]

Kings failed in thinking MBIII could play multiple positions and may not have him at his best spot in the offense but here's where I see the fault in the logic here:
They failed badly with the Dedmon signing, but Dedmon was supposed to be the spacing big and Bagley was supposed to get the easy buckets. But Dedmon was going to guard the stronger man on D which was supposed to allow Bagley's athleticism to cover the smaller 4. Dedmon was a flop, Bagley got hurt in game one and Holmes won the job and has consistently been better. Bagley has never been able to stay healthy long enough to reclaim that job, and frankly his health history means that he probably means they view him at risk in the paint because I am sure fingers get broken every night there.

Every argument that they should have pushed Holmes aside ignores the fact that for consistency's sake, Holmes would be getting the job back every 3-4 weeks after Bagley's next injury.

But the plan which blew up spectacularly was likely for Holmes to be the 4th big behind Bagley and Dedmon with Bjelica the primary third.


Now quite frankly, I don't see how you can be so down on what they did to Marvin when what they did was reward the guy who exceeded expectations, brought it every night, and won the job. Sure, that is horrific resource management of a #2 pick, but it was also that night one injury in year two that derailed the entire thing and the bubble was the only thing that saved the season for him. Then he promptly goes out and gets hurt early in year three. Now he's missed two preseason games due to knee soreness. How long can you keep trying to put the train on the tracks when it keeps derailing itself?

Never said that Holmes should have been pushed aside. Always said that the Kings had to choose between the two. Both won't work. They chose Holmes. That's fine, but the team should have moved on quickly after that.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Never said that Holmes should have been pushed aside. Always said that the Kings had to choose between the two. Both won't work. They chose Holmes. That's fine, but the team should have moved on quickly after that.

Yes but ... if nobody was even entertaining a middle of the first round pick you also have to hang onto him and try to rebuild value to get something back. You can not trade #2 overall two years later for a second rounder. You can not.

 

[Livinthedream]

Yes but ... if nobody was even entertaining a middle of the first round pick you also have to hang onto him and try to rebuild value to get something back. You can not trade #2 overall two years later for a second rounder. You can not.

But if he is not valuable enough(or healthy)to play on your team how can you build more value?

This is the contradiction that puzzles me from this fan base. Marvin is not good, doesn't fit the modern NBA, can't do this or that, but we should be picky about what we get back in a trade?

 

[gunks]

And the bust goes out with a bang

 

[TaxMan]

But if he is not valuable enough(or healthy)to play on your team how can you build more value?

This is the contradiction that puzzles me from this fan base. Marvin is not good, doesn't fit the modern NBA, can't do this or that, but we should be picky about what we get back in a trade?

I'm all good with Monte trying to extract any value possible out of him in a trade. If that means he's used only as salary filler in a bigger trade, so be it. The Kings don't owe him anything. He's been getting paid handsomely. Yes, I understand there is the organizational reputation in how they treat their players, but I really think that's the least of the teams worries at this point. For all that we can tell at this point, the current squad is extremely united and motivated this year. The team's reputation only changes when they start to win.

 

[kb02]

I'm all good with Monte trying to extract any value possible out of him in a trade. If that means he's used only as salary filler in a bigger trade, so be it. The Kings don't owe him anything. He's been getting paid handsomely. Yes, I understand there is the organizational reputation in how they treat their players, but I really think that's the least of the teams worries at this point. For all that we can tell at this point, the current squad is extremely united and motivated this year. The team's reputation only changes when they start to win.

One of the things that didn't make any sense to me is when Schwartz said the Kings were mismanaging things by not rehabbing Bagley's value. Which is logical only if you believe playing an undeserving player is more important than winning or building a team culture that is based on earning your minutes. Seems to me, the player can do something about it by earning his minutes and playing winning ball--the season is long. Going public is just so SMH.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

But if he is not valuable enough(or healthy)to play on your team how can you build more value?

This is the contradiction that puzzles me from this fan base. Marvin is not good, doesn't fit the modern NBA, can't do this or that, but we should be picky about what we get back in a trade?

Because of his salary you can't just waive him or let him go without taking money back which complicates why you have to make a "good deal" even if it's not a great deal.

 

[NewArena]

Not sure how we're now defending a grown man for pouting and running home because he lost his spot in the rotation. Especially to prove why MBIII shouldn't complain about losing his spot in the rotation.

Listen, I understand that fans are upset because MBIII hasn't lived up to their wishes and that he doesn't profess his love for the city and fans. That is a Sacramento requirement. Everyone has a right to feel that way and I respect it.

I highly doubt many fans care about him professing his love for Sacramento as much as you’re implying. Especially if he simply showed more willingness to bust his butt during practice and every game. Let’s give Kings fans more credit than that. We don’t ask for much IMO. Guys like Scott Pollard and Bobby Jackson were fan favorites for a reason and i can almost guarantee you it wasn’t because they declared “omg i just love Sacramento so much” on the daily.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

^ there's a reason I usually say "pretend like you like the city". It's a pretty low bar. It's more like keep your head up and don't openly disparage the city and team. Of course if you go all in like Fox or Hali or even Cousins at times the fans go all in back.

 

[iowamcnabb]

I remember in an interview Scot Pollard named Des Moines one of his favorite cities and this was back before the capital became “cool”

 

[Tetsujin]

I highly doubt many fans care about him professing his love for Sacramento as much as you’re implying. Especially if he simply showed more willingness to bust his butt during practice and every game. Let’s give Kings fans more credit than that. We don’t ask for much IMO. Guys like Scott Pollard and Bobby Jackson were fan favorites for a reason and i can almost guarantee you it wasn’t because they declared “omg i just love Sacramento so much” on the daily.

People absolutely detested Kenny Thomas and his albatross contract when he was playing for the Kings and the dude loved living in Sacramento so much that he's been living here ever since lol.

 

[SacTownKid]

I'm all good with Monte trying to extract any value possible out of him in a trade. If that means he's used only as salary filler in a bigger trade, so be it. The Kings don't owe him anything. He's been getting paid handsomely. Yes, I understand there is the organizational reputation in how they treat their players, but I really think that's the least of the teams worries at this point. For all that we can tell at this point, the current squad is extremely united and motivated this year. The team's reputation only changes when they start to win.

Well, if this experiment doesn't work out it will be their main worry. All eggs in at this point, no questions, no excuses. Should be interesting.

 

[Tetsujin]

Well, if this experiment doesn't work out it will be their main worry. All eggs in at this point, no questions, no excuses. Should be interesting.

I mean, it says a lot about Bagley's general attitude when playing incredibly small for most of the night seems like a more enticing option than using a 6'10" forward with perimeter shooting touch.

 

[SacTownKid]

I mean, it says a lot about Bagley's general attitude when playing incredibly small for most of the night seems like a more enticing option than using a 6'10" forward with perimeter shooting touch.

It's a small league. Look at that Lakers game last night. They again tried to throw super size me at the Warriors and they got stomped by a team with Nemanja Bjelica at center. THE GAME IS MORE BROKEN THAN EVER! lol. My issue always was in order to preserve value they had no choice but to play Marvin at center. "We won't win!". Well.... you didn't win and now you're on the cusp of igniting another lottery pick for winning that didn't come anyway. The scary thing is Walton is again probably going to use Harkless as his answer (which honestly he's a better option than Marvin at this point considering Marvin/Holmes ain't taking you anywhere), but all small ball metrics last year were firmly in Buddy being that guy in his place, not Harkless. We'll see if Fox as your one true aggressive attack oriented scoring option is enough. Ideally Barnes is your third guy, not your second which in that lineup he is.

 

[TaxMan]

Well, if this experiment doesn't work out it will be their main worry. All eggs in at this point, no questions, no excuses. Should be interesting.

I doubt it went down in a way where the team told Bagley he was out of the rotation and should take a hike. Likely told him it will be a fluid situation, but as of game 1 he's likely out of the normal rotation.... and then probably told him here are the things to work on to get you back into the rotation. Remember, we haven't heard a peep out of the front office. It's not like they are trying to sabotage his career at this point.

 

[TaxMan]

It's a small league. Look at that Lakers game last night. They again tried to throw super size me at the Warriors and they got stomped by a team with Nemanja Bjelica at center. THE GAME IS MORE BROKEN THAN EVER! lol.

I can agree with you on that!

 

[Tetsujin]

It's a small league. Look at that Lakers game last night. They again tried to throw super size me at the Warriors and they got stomped by a team with Nemanja Bjelica at center. THE GAME IS MORE BROKEN THAN EVER! lol. My issue always was in order to preserve value they had no choice but to play Marvin at center. "We won't win!". Well.... you didn't win and now you're on the cusp of igniting another lottery pick for winning that didn't come anyway. The scary thing is Walton is again probably going to use Harkless as his answer (which honestly he's a better option than Marvin at this point considering Marvin/Holmes ain't taking you anywhere), but all small ball metrics last year were firmly in Buddy being that guy in his place, not Harkless. We'll see if Fox as your one true aggressive attack oriented scoring option is enough. Ideally Barnes is your third guy, not your second which in that lineup he is.

While I'm not a huge Harkless fan at this point in his career, I'm fine with him starting. If the rotations over the preseason were any indication, he'll mostly just end up trading off minutes with Barnes as the forward in those three guard lineups. Without the specter of "Why isn't Bagley playing in the 4th quarter?" hanging over his head, I think Walton will be more willing to go to the death lineup earlier and longer. But it's Walton so who knows?

 

[Joshoua]

That Twolves fan:

1. Never watched any Kings games outside of those against the Wolves.
2. And when he did, he only paid attention to the Wolves.
3. Thinks offensive production is the only thing that matters. Defense, efficiency, IQ, and hustle/non-stats plays that contribute to winning ball are off his radar.

It’s year four. His body looks the same, his game still looks exactly the same. He’s 22, so there’s hope, but at this rate, he’s looking at a Marquise Criss type of career.

lol remember we add up the games played so he might be in year two or three

 

[SacTownKid]

While I'm not a huge Harkless fan at this point in his career, I'm fine with him starting. If the rotations over the preseason were any indication, he'll mostly just end up trading off minutes with Barnes as the forward in those three guard lineups. Without the specter of "Why isn't Bagley playing in the 4th quarter?" hanging over his head, I think Walton will be more willing to go to the death lineup earlier and longer. But it's Walton so who knows?

The only issue I have is in most games it's puts sooo much pressure on Fox right at the start. You can see it on the floor, in that lineup he's the only one comfortable in an attack posture. Buddy gives you two players with that instinct and it makes a difference as to how the defense plays you. It's Walton for sure. So far he's putting a player nearly out of the league a year ago in place of a former number 2 pick and one of the best shooters in the league. Sounds right on line to me. It either works or it doesn't. There can't be any wiggling his way out of this should it not. Hopefully it does work and Fox stays happy and his choice of coach sticks around.

 

[midtowner]

The only issue I have is in most games it's puts sooo much pressure on Fox right at the start. You can see it on the floor, in that lineup he's the only one comfortable in an attack posture. Buddy gives you two players with that instinct and it makes a difference as to how the defense plays you. It's Walton for sure. So far he's putting a player nearly out of the league a year ago in place of a former number 2 pick and one of the best shooters in the league. Sounds right on line to me. It either works or it doesn't. There can't be any wiggling his way out of this should it not. Hopefully it does work and Fox stays happy and his choice of coach sticks around.

nice analysis

and I noticed that too, last year.

But I think this year there will be a better plan with more Haliburton/Holmes pick and rolls to start and a more assertive Barnes. I could be very wrong.

Buddy in the starting lineup never worked for me. It was either all good or all bad. He’d either shoot us into a hole or get hot and take others out of the offense. I think he can be excellent off the bench.

 

[kb02]

lol remember we add up the games played so he might be in year two or three

Lolzzz. Yea, I remember that counter argument.

 

[The Effort Police]

lol remember we add up the games played so he might be in year two or three

Heh, I made that my signature.

I remember talking about that, and someone went above and beyond saying he is still a rookie. No qualifiers, like saying "basically still a rookie" or "played so few games he might as well be a rookie".

Just flat-out "he is still a rookie" with no strings attached.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

This idea of Bagley not being given a chance and/or not being put in a position to succeed is ludicrous.

He’s played in 118 games out of 226 total. That means he’s been unavailable nearly half of his career.

Whatever the reasons he couldn’t play, the fact is he couldn’t play. The best ability is availability and Bagley hasn’t been able to give that to the KINGS.

Buddy Hield has barely missed a game since becoming a KING. So don’t go blaming the org or training staff for Bagley being made from glass.

Other players such as Fox, Holmes and Barnes have all missed time, but none have missed close to half the team’s games during their tenure.

This is a Marvin Bagley problem. Nothing more. If his availability wasn’t a problem, which it most certainly has been, the entitlement and attitude from those around him and from those that represent him surely is. They are clueless. You can’t have a player miss half the games played during their career and realistically believe the KINGS are the problem.

That’s just nonsense.

I neglected to mention Bagley’s defense, which is the other big problem besides availability. That’s why he largely doesn’t play in crunchtime (when he is available) and his entitled dad is clueless about that too.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

The best ability is availability

This is a phrase that seems to have recently become popular (along with the equally annoying but merely descriptive "flip the script"), but one I have to disagree with. Obviously, availability is important, but quite clearly subordinate to other sorts of ability. I mean, I've been available for a LOT more games than Bagley has during his career but somehow the Kings haven't signed me. I think that's because I'm missing those other abilities that are wrongfully being accorded less distinction than availability.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

This is a phrase that seems to have recently become popular (along with the equally annoying but merely descriptive "flip the script"), but one I have to disagree with. Obviously, availability is important, but quite clearly subordinate to other sorts of ability. I mean, I've been available for a LOT more games than Bagley has during his career but somehow the Kings haven't signed me. I think that's because I'm missing those other abilities that are wrongfully being accorded less distinction than availability.

C’mon Cap’t. You’re twisting the point.

You personally aren’t talented enough to be on the team. But for all those that are, being available trumps their other abilities because if they miss most the games those other abilities don’t matter, do they?

Gotta show up and play in the game for speed, length, athleticism, skill, etc. to be a factor. Availability is in no way subordinate.

That’s precisely why the phrase has become popular. Because it’s true.

Look no further than Marvin Bagley. But if you need to look further, how about Greg Oden.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

C’mon Cap’t. You’re twisting the point.

You personally aren’t talented enough to be on the team. But for all those that are, being available trumps their other abilities because if they miss most the games those other abilities don’t matter, do they?

Talent is the primary gatekeeper. If you are not talented, it doesn't matter how available you are. So yes, talent trumps availability.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Talent is the primary gatekeeper. If you are not talented, it doesn't matter how available you are. So yes, talent trumps availability.

Nah my friend, you got it completely backwards. Talent means nothing if you aren’t available to play most days.

I already gave you two prime examples of elite talented players whose primary gatekeeper according to you wasn’t enough because they could never play enough to show off the secondary gatekeepers.

Gotta first be on the floor to show out on it. Deny it all you want, but it’s a hard fact.

 

[Rob-The-Great]

Nah my friend, you got it completely backwards. Talent means nothing if you aren’t available to play most days.

I already gave you two prime examples of elite talented players whose primary gatekeeper according to you wasn’t enough because they could never play enough to show off the secondary gatekeepers.

Gotta first be on the floor to show out on it. Deny it all you want, but it’s a hard fact.

JT was a prime example of no talent but extreme availability. He got a 2nd contract while Bagley is inactive.