Article on true Cap space each team has. HINT: We have none.
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MassachusettsKingsFan
All-Star
Don't cap holds go away once the player is signed? I thought they did.
For instance, say we resign Evans tomorrow won't his cap number be whatever we sign him for (lets say 8 million in year one) not the 13mil cap hold?
For instance, say we resign Evans tomorrow won't his cap number be whatever we sign him for (lets say 8 million in year one) not the 13mil cap hold?
twslam07
All-Star
I have always been under the impression that the amount of the qualifying offer for Evans would be what is counted against our salary cap. This would be about 6.5 million less than what the author is suggesting considering his QO is $6,927,156.
No, the cap hold and the QO are different values. The QO is the minimum 1-year salary we have to offer in order for us to take the benefits of restricted free agency, and Tyreke will have the option of taking it (not terribly common), negotiating a deal with us (common), or negotiating a deal with another team which we have the right to match (common).
The cap hold is the amount that counts against our cap based on the fact that we have the Bird Rights to exceed the cap to sign Tyreke. The cap hold is defined as 250% of the fourth-year salary of the rookie contract. If we sign Tyreke, the cap hold will go away and his salary will replace it. If we allow another team to sign him as an RFA, or decline to offer him his QO (that seems unlikely) then his cap hold goes away altogether.
If we intend to keep Tyreke, we'll probably have to pay him at least $11M. That's my guess as to what kind of offer he can get in RFA. And that $11M eats up our cap space pretty badly. A Salmons amnesty would help if we had another target, but unless we find a miracle taker on Thornton that doesn't want to give us salary back, it's pretty much either a big-name free agent or Tyreke this offseason. Not both.
jalfa
Starter
you can be absolutely certain that Mark Deeks doesn't get CBA stuff wrong. outside of Larry Coon, he's the foremost authority on that stuff. Tyreke's cap hold is at 250% of his current salary, as he is a Larry Bird free agent, coming off of a rookie scale contract, and the last year of his previous contract was lesser than the average salary (taken from here).
KevinSalvadori
Bench
Interesting
This further convinces me we may see Tyreke allowed to walk and Salmons amnestied. It just seems like MT23's salary, at present, will be near impossible to shed, and I do not think 'Reke is worth that level of cap hold. If MT becomes the starter, provided we get a more dominating and senior PG and a defensive SF, it could work. If these owners are as ambitious as they sound, I'd rather spend that $20-23 million we'd gain going after a true, established PG and SF, particularly if AK may be available. We can offer a multi-year and go up to around 8-9/yr. As to the PG, my gut tells me Jarret Jack but if they want to aim higher, wink wink, that's fine with me. If it is Jack, we may not even need to amnesty Salmons and can use that eventual expiring to lock up DMC down the road.
This further convinces me we may see Tyreke allowed to walk and Salmons amnestied. It just seems like MT23's salary, at present, will be near impossible to shed, and I do not think 'Reke is worth that level of cap hold. If MT becomes the starter, provided we get a more dominating and senior PG and a defensive SF, it could work. If these owners are as ambitious as they sound, I'd rather spend that $20-23 million we'd gain going after a true, established PG and SF, particularly if AK may be available. We can offer a multi-year and go up to around 8-9/yr. As to the PG, my gut tells me Jarret Jack but if they want to aim higher, wink wink, that's fine with me. If it is Jack, we may not even need to amnesty Salmons and can use that eventual expiring to lock up DMC down the road.
Section 101
All-Star
You can shed it at anytime unless he takes the qualifying offer then that is the cap number. No reason to renounce him unless it's needed to sign a FA, i.e. CP3.
Bosnian Diehard
Starter
I really want to keep Reke.
In order to become a contender in this league, nowadays, we need two stars at least (considering the Big Three in Miami, potential CP3/D12 pairing, OKC w/Durant and Westbrook, Nets with Williams and Johnson, the Spurs big three, etc.), and Reke and DMC have the potential to be our stars. We can't let him walk.
In order to become a contender in this league, nowadays, we need two stars at least (considering the Big Three in Miami, potential CP3/D12 pairing, OKC w/Durant and Westbrook, Nets with Williams and Johnson, the Spurs big three, etc.), and Reke and DMC have the potential to be our stars. We can't let him walk.
jalfa
Starter
you know that his cap hold has no bearing whatsoever on the salary he'll end up getting, right? plus, going after quality PGs and SFs sounds great in theory, but the reality is that there's no PG out there that would substantially help the team going forward as much as a resigned Reke would and that would actually consider signing here. at SF you might have a shot at Kirilenko or Iguodala, emphasis on "might", yet me personally, I'd prefer Reke and someone like Dorell Wright to Thornton and one of the above.
Section 101
All-Star
Uh, CP3.
There would be quite a few teams that would offer Chris Paul the same maximum money that Kings can if they clear everybody out. Then again why would Paul be excited about playing with Cousins...and a bunch of guys. At this point of Paul's career Dirk and a bunch of guys sounds much more enticing.
jalfa
Starter
read the last part of the bolded sentence.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Simple way to alleviate some of the pressure: amnesty John Salmons. Break out that pocket book again Vivek!
Section 101
All-Star
That part is an assumption.
jalfa
Starter
a very reasonable assumption, though. or do you really think 28 year old Chris Paul and his bad knees are going to want to join a rebuilding team featuring Demarcus Cousins and, frankly, no one else of note? especially when he has a considerable amount of other and far more attractive options?
KevinSalvadori
Bench
I completely agree, and didn't want to appear delusional under the mirage of Chris Paul. If it were up to me, I'd aim to build this team one position at a time, drawing on depth as a key starting ingredient. There could be utility in looking at the way some of the pieces at present could be swung to score a player Malone is familiar with from his CLE, NOH, or GSW days. One name that strikes me via trade is Anderson Varejao, considering they may be drafting a franchise big in Noel. I have absolutely no idea what it would take to get Varejao, presuming he is going to cost a ton, but perhaps JT, Jimmer, and our #7 could do it. And then, adding someone like Iggy or AK rounds off the lineup with the addition of a PG, with Jack being my target. I like the idea of Iggy though, mostly due to his versatility as a 2/3 and the fact he adds a defensive side to his solid scoring touch. In this scenario, signing 'Reke makes more sense to me.
Cousins/Varejao/Iguodala/???/Evans
Presuming we amnesty Salmons, I presume Iggy would cost no less than 14-16/yr. Evans will cost another 9 at least, leaving us 2.4M to sign our picks. MT 23, in this scenario, becomes trade bait to get us a PG. But from where??? MIN has about 15 PGs but I'd doubt they'd want MT. Unless they don't sign Monta...
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Mike
Bench
Agreed. Potentially DMC and Reke could become stars and lead this team back to the glory days. Granted there's no guarantee either of them will hit that level, but these two guys are two we should build around.
The only exception would be if we lost Reke and replaced him with a top tier FA, whether it be a PF to pair with DMC, or a star in another position. But personally I want us to keep him.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
The answer is yes. Once a player is signed, then the amount of the new contract is what counts against the cap. As for other cap holds, they only exist as long as a team wants to retain the rights to a player. The team can relinquish those rights anytime after july 1st. I'm sure that the team will release the rights to JJ, Douglas, and Aldrich. It benefits a team to make decisions on players with cap holds as soon as possible. As pointed out, if we sign Tyreke for around 7 or 8 mil a year, and then amnesty Salmons, we'll have some cap space to work with. Now if, lets say, we get a hint from Chris Paul that he might be interested, then I suspect we release the rights to Tyreke as well as amnesting Salmons.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
For what its worth, in a podcast I listened to, Sam Amick stated that along with Paul liking Mike Malone, he also likes Cousins. So who knows?
Section 101
All-Star
If CP3 comes here it won't be a rebuild. What other options does he have? Staying with the Clips, but if he really is pissed about the news release then what are his other options? Dallas and Atl are the other rumors.
jalfa
Starter
of course it'd still be a rebuild. we'd still not have an even bench-quality SF, there would still be the question of the defensive big that is necessary to have any success in this league and, since Tyreke would be gone, we'd also be short on quality guards. that team is probably in contention for the playoffs but far removed from actual title contention. not a direction Paul is likely to go in, no matter how much he likes certain things about our team.
as far as your other question: it all hinges upon him actually wanting to quit the Clippers, which, no matter how pissed off he might be because of their quasi-blaming him for De Negro's dismissal, I still find unlikely. if he does, however, Atlanta seems a smart idea, if Dwight is up for it, and Dallas would make more sense as well. he could also go to Houston, a young team on the rise with actual success to back their bid up, or Utah, who'd probably profit from his arrival the most.
ParniValjak
All-Star
This raises one question that I have been thinking about for a while now. Could Maloof penny pinching the last couple of years in particular cost this team the longer term potential of being a championship contender.
We are at a point where we have players tied up in contracts and not enough room to sign a good free agent if we re-sign Tyreke.
Our perfect time to make a move was the off-season of the lockout. We had 2 budding young start on the roster on rookie contracts and cap space for not 1 but TWO max type contracts. In a perfect rebuild, this is precisely when a team makes it's move but because of Maloofs penny pinching we make the following moves
1. Trade Omri Casspi and our 1st round pick to CLE for JJ Hickson
We gave away a very valuable 1st round draft pick which might really come back to bite us on the bum.
2. Trade Beno Udrih (expiring) and pick 7 for John Salmons and pick 10 (Jimmer)
This is two stuff ups in one move. By adding Salmons, we added on an additional year of salary (plus partial guarantee for next year) which removed our cap flexibility for this offseason. In addition to that we drafted a bust purely for marketing purposes. To rub salt into the wounds, Leonard was the obvious pick for us that also addresses the need.
3. Signed Thorton to $33 million - 4 year deal
Were we bidding against ourselves?! White the deal itself was not that outrageous, our use of Thornton has made this a contract that just might be a little bit tough to move. Still in the right role, he could be worth the money.
4. Signed Chuck Hayes to $22.4 million - 4 year deal
HUGE mistake no matter how you dice it! Contract is not tradable at the moment and his contribution has deteriorated. Hope here is that Malone's desire for defence makes better use of Hayes and makes him somewhat tradeable.
5. Signed Outlaw off amnesty waivers ($12 million - 4 year deal)
Another WTF moment of the off season. We are still paying for it.
So looking back, Maloofs obvious attempt at getting "better" on the cheap has cost us valuable cap space and cap flexibility at the time we need it the most. At the time we commited to over $67 million of cap space over the next 4 years while at the same time not adding anything valuable from the draft (other than IT).
So now when we really could have used that cap space to build the team, we don't have any. Two of the 3 key free agents we added are not tradeable because of their crap contracts and eat up $8 million of cap space. Not to mention Salmon's $7 million. That is a max type contract there.
We are at a point where we have absolutely no room for error. If we make the play-offs next year it costs us a pick. If we just miss the play offs it costs us the pick. If we stink it up, we potentially lose Cousins in the off-season.
We need to be really creative with our drafting and trading this off seasons. It will be interesting to see if the new ownership amnesties Salmons. It's a lot of money but that money is mo valuable to us this off-season than next off-season when with hopefully re-signed Tyreke and extended Cousins we will have absolutely NO cap room. If only Maloofs sold their team just before the lockout.
We are at a point where we have players tied up in contracts and not enough room to sign a good free agent if we re-sign Tyreke.
Our perfect time to make a move was the off-season of the lockout. We had 2 budding young start on the roster on rookie contracts and cap space for not 1 but TWO max type contracts. In a perfect rebuild, this is precisely when a team makes it's move but because of Maloofs penny pinching we make the following moves
1. Trade Omri Casspi and our 1st round pick to CLE for JJ Hickson
We gave away a very valuable 1st round draft pick which might really come back to bite us on the bum.
2. Trade Beno Udrih (expiring) and pick 7 for John Salmons and pick 10 (Jimmer)
This is two stuff ups in one move. By adding Salmons, we added on an additional year of salary (plus partial guarantee for next year) which removed our cap flexibility for this offseason. In addition to that we drafted a bust purely for marketing purposes. To rub salt into the wounds, Leonard was the obvious pick for us that also addresses the need.
3. Signed Thorton to $33 million - 4 year deal
Were we bidding against ourselves?! White the deal itself was not that outrageous, our use of Thornton has made this a contract that just might be a little bit tough to move. Still in the right role, he could be worth the money.
4. Signed Chuck Hayes to $22.4 million - 4 year deal
HUGE mistake no matter how you dice it! Contract is not tradable at the moment and his contribution has deteriorated. Hope here is that Malone's desire for defence makes better use of Hayes and makes him somewhat tradeable.
5. Signed Outlaw off amnesty waivers ($12 million - 4 year deal)
Another WTF moment of the off season. We are still paying for it.
So looking back, Maloofs obvious attempt at getting "better" on the cheap has cost us valuable cap space and cap flexibility at the time we need it the most. At the time we commited to over $67 million of cap space over the next 4 years while at the same time not adding anything valuable from the draft (other than IT).
So now when we really could have used that cap space to build the team, we don't have any. Two of the 3 key free agents we added are not tradeable because of their crap contracts and eat up $8 million of cap space. Not to mention Salmon's $7 million. That is a max type contract there.
We are at a point where we have absolutely no room for error. If we make the play-offs next year it costs us a pick. If we just miss the play offs it costs us the pick. If we stink it up, we potentially lose Cousins in the off-season.
We need to be really creative with our drafting and trading this off seasons. It will be interesting to see if the new ownership amnesties Salmons. It's a lot of money but that money is mo valuable to us this off-season than next off-season when with hopefully re-signed Tyreke and extended Cousins we will have absolutely NO cap room. If only Maloofs sold their team just before the lockout.
KevinSalvadori
Bench
Let's get crazy for a second. I mean, nuts.
Okay. So if we used our Amnesty Provision on Salmons this offseason, we gain another 7.5M against the cap. Presuming we let Tyreke and our other expirings walk, assuming that the philosophy of Malone and Co. is make "Cousins the future, and the future is now" we have, in sum, about 25 million.
From that 25M, we have to bucket about 4M or so against draft picks and salary increases. So in truth, let's call that number 21M.
IF we, in fantasy land, sign CP3, let's imagine giving him a 4 year deal that starts at 16.75M. That would equal about 17.25 the next year, 17.75 the following, topping out around 18.25. So 16.75-21 is around 4.25M.
With that 4.25M, I make an offer to Tony Allen. He made 3.15M with the Grizz this past offseason and might be looking for new pastures. We could offer that, and go multi-year with him, something many teams may not be able to do.
I then deal Jimmer and Hayes to land Wallace and Brooklyn's #22 pick. The reason is Brooklyn may see Watson walk this offseason and they have glaring depth holes at C and PG. Yes, Wallace was their starter, but they may be looking to get out from under that contract and additionally, might make a run at someone like Metta, AK (who their owner loves), or Dorell Wright this offseason. We also save them about 1.6M. With the deal, we are now over the cap.
OK. So now we're over the cap, we are eligible for the MLE, no? That offers us another 5.5 to spend. I'd call Al Harrington and see if there is any interest in taking a flier. Let's say he says yes.
I draft Len with the #7, Karasev with the #22 from BKN, and Erik Murphy with our #36.
Remember, we're in fantasy land.
Our new team:
C: Cousins/Len
PF: Thompson/Harrington/Patterson
SF: Wallace/Karasev/Outlaw
PG: Paul/Thomas/Murphy
SG: Thornton/Allen
That starting 5 is signed for another 2 years, minimum, and we have expirings from Patterson, Harrington, and Thomas on the horizon, although that won't count for much. The real development happens in two seasons, when we would have to offer DMC a new deal and have the expiring from Thornton to wield. That would only cover 8.25M but it's something.
I go through this drill as a long way of reinforcing your point, Carolija. EVEN when we dream big, getting savvy in trades and signings, we still are hand-tied due to a number of rough deals. I would much prefer to be a little under-ambitious and keep guys like 'Reke and even Salmons around if it meant us freeing up money to add more definitive moves over time to calibrate this team as it grows. The lineup bandied about in the other thread of Cousins/JT/AK47 or Wright/Jack/Evans could all be done with the amnesty to Salmons and still free some money to be available over time. Bad contracts get traded for bad contracts, though, so it will be interesting to see the way a new GM wades through this.
ParniValjak
All-Star
Back to reality! 
Two years in a row we made mistakes and blew the cap space! By doing that we have no room for error now! It's part of the reason why new ownership group wants to build through the draft. We have no reL, useful cap space. We might get $7 million if we amnesty Salmons but that does not get you genuine quality. It will be interesting to see how we go about things over the next few months.
Two years in a row we made mistakes and blew the cap space! By doing that we have no room for error now! It's part of the reason why new ownership group wants to build through the draft. We have no reL, useful cap space. We might get $7 million if we amnesty Salmons but that does not get you genuine quality. It will be interesting to see how we go about things over the next few months.
Jose
Bench
You mean Maloofs' blatantly obvious moves to spend enough money to qualify for revenue sharing... Call me cynic, but I can't think of a single thing they've done in the past few years to attempt to improve the team. It's all been about more moeny in their pockets while meeting minimum "standards" where they could say they weren't sabotaging things.
Gary
All-Star
Addition by subtraction.. Warriors did it and I think we could be a better team if we did it. Find pieces that work rather than trying to tell yourselves (well we have two stars so we have to be good). There are quite a few players on this team that don't work well together, good coaching or not, and there are others who did not want to accept roles. The only players I saw that really thrived playing "roles" last year was JT, Patterson, and to a lesser extent IT, but JT is the only one I would want to start going forward.
Basically the point to all this is rambling is that if the pieces don't fit then you could have 3 MVPs/HOF type players on one team and barely make the playoffs, only to get swept in the first round. Or you could be like another team who cleared a logjam by getting rid of arguably the best individual talent of the three and somehow get better, even when the piece they trade for underperforms.
Basically the point to all this is rambling is that if the pieces don't fit then you could have 3 MVPs/HOF type players on one team and barely make the playoffs, only to get swept in the first round. Or you could be like another team who cleared a logjam by getting rid of arguably the best individual talent of the three and somehow get better, even when the piece they trade for underperforms.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Nice plan, but I have to make a few corrections. First, Paul is currently making 17.7 mil a year, so I seriously doubt he'll entertain any offers below that figure, or even at that figure. I suspect he'll end up starting at around 20 mil a year. The amount we'll owe our 7th pick in the draft is $2,413,300.00. Thats decided by the CBA. There is a lower amount you can offer, but in general, most picks are signed for the max amount at each position in the draft in the first round. Finally, if you start out on july 1st under the cap, your not eligible for the mid-level exception. And no, you can't then spend the money to go over the cap, and then be eligible for the mid-level.
I want nothing to do with Erik Murphy. I watched Florida play a lot this season, and believe me, there are a whole bunch of guys I'd take before him, like Mike Muscala from Bucknell. Since your in fantasy land, I won't discuss your plan for pulling all this off. All I'll say is good luck.
Actually Erick Murphy is younger brother of Matt Bonner. 
They both played for Gators and had nearly identical careers with nearly identical playing styles and body types. Well, Bonner looked slightly better in college. In the end you can pick him but I doubt he can break into rotation for 2-3 years. What most puzzling is how can one use him as 3rd string PG.
P.S. Muscala indeed is good and getting recognition. Just as with Zeller you start thinking of him as PF, and suddenly he looks very attractive as with his skill-level he no longer has big strength issues - he will still have to hit weight room hard - and his length allows him to become an average defender at least. At #36 he's a no brainer, but so is James Ennis. Would want another second-rounder.
They both played for Gators and had nearly identical careers with nearly identical playing styles and body types. Well, Bonner looked slightly better in college. In the end you can pick him but I doubt he can break into rotation for 2-3 years. What most puzzling is how can one use him as 3rd string PG.
P.S. Muscala indeed is good and getting recognition. Just as with Zeller you start thinking of him as PF, and suddenly he looks very attractive as with his skill-level he no longer has big strength issues - he will still have to hit weight room hard - and his length allows him to become an average defender at least. At #36 he's a no brainer, but so is James Ennis. Would want another second-rounder.
Section 101
All-Star
It can't be $20 mil. The max he can get is 105% of his current salary. So if it's $17.7 mil as you say his max is like $18.58 the first year.
And every team does get a mid level whether over or under the cap. You need to re read the cba faq for the new rules !
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KevinSalvadori
Bench
Hahaha. Understood. I like Muscala better too, I just don't think he'll be available.
On to a more realistic tilt, I do think going after someone like Granger for MT+JT and maybe playing coy with HOU to take on salary to get Asik could be done. This would all still involve us amnestying Salmons, but the team would get stronger. If we dealt, say, Hayes for Asik--which the Rockets might do to clear 3M for their pursuit of a big 3--we could add a real piece next to Cousins and become that much stronger as starting 5. My dream scenario? Do the deals mentioned here (IT+MT for Granger and their #23; Hayes for Asik), Amnesty Salmons, sign Jarret Jack, re-sign Evans. Draft Len or Karasev, Snell or Tony Mitchell with 23, and Muscala with 36. New Lineup and depth chart:
C: Cousins/Len/Muscala
PF: Asik/Patterson
SF: Granger/Snell/Outlaw
PG: Jack/Thomas
SG: Evans/Fredette
If room existed still, I'd take a flier on an undrafted FA or cheap vet that can be a deep reserve at combo-guard, like a Mike James, Bogans, Daequan Cook, Janeero Pargo, etc.
IMO, a vastly improved team with a lot of upside and great defensive focus.
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