Artest and defense

[VF21]

We always say that Ron Artest is our best defender but I have to admit to not seeing it this season anywhere near as much as before. In fact, in a number of games, the leader scorer on the other team seems to have done pretty well against our defensive specialist.

Is it just me or has Artest's defensive presence (Grant and Jerry comments not withstanding) been less than stellar?

 

[piksi]

when he felt like doing it - it was good. Unfortunately - it didn't happen often enough

 

[BMiller52]

He's only 1 man, he can't defend for Beno or MIkki or Brad. The 4 guys surrounding him are HORRIBLE defenders(Kevin is about average actually, the rest are garbage defensively). He's not really made for a zone D either like Reggie always has to use because we don't have any other good 1 on 1 defenders. He has no shotblocker behind him also so... pretty much as 1 man the most he can do is get a lot of steals, which he does(having multiple 5 and 6 steal games this season).

 

[NewArena]

Well there is no doubt that he is our best defender but its obvious that it isnt the same as it was when he was in indiana or when he first got here in the 06 half of the season. He still holds guys like Mcgrady to bad shooting nights even if they do end up scoring 30, like recently when tracy shot like 1-11 in the fourth quarter at arco.

I dont usually look at how many points he holds those all star scorers to because you know they're going to shoot a ton of shots regardless.

 

[NewArena]

BTW I love Reggie theus and the job he has done and really enjoyed his interview with Grant and Mike but I do not want to see that Zone defense next season being the primary defense used.

 

[VF21]

He's only 1 man, he can't defend for Beno or MIkki or Brad. The 4 guys surrounding him are HORRIBLE defenders(Kevin is about average actually, the rest are garbage defensively). He's not really made for a zone D either like Reggie always has to use because we don't have any other good 1 on 1 defenders. He has no shotblocker behind him also so... pretty much as 1 man the most he can do is get a lot of steals, which he does(having multiple 5 and 6 steal games this season).

Last year he was surrounded by Bibby, Martin, SAR/KT, and Miller, so I don't think it's the guys surrounding him. And we haven't had a shotblocker in ... well, forever ... so that's not it either.

I'll concede the problems of the zone D, however. I HATE watching the zone for the simple reason it just lets outside shooters have even more opportunities to make us look pathetic.

 

[BMiller52]

Last year he was surrounded by Bibby, Martin, SAR/KT, and Miller, so I don't think it's the guys surrounding him. And we haven't had a shotblocker in ... well, forever ... so that's not it either.

I'll concede the problems of the zone D, however. I HATE watching the zone for the simple reason it just lets outside shooters have even more opportunities to make us look pathetic.

Last year his D wasn't as good as it had been the 1st year he got here either though. The 1st here he got here it was really good, especially with Bonzi. But I thought Rick was a good defensive coach and didn't get nearly enough credit. Brad and Mike are both bad defenders(KT is actually decent man to man defender depending on if he's against someone that's not a giant compared to him IMO) so Rick should've got more credit for making us a good defensive team with Artest. But also I think Ron's injuries have taken a toll on him physically, and he gambles for steals so much this year that guys like Kobe get by him more than they used to. He still shuts down the guys like TMac and Roy though, he's given both of them fits this year. And without him the Warriors dropped 140 on us lol. So even if his impact isn't as much as it used to be it's still a significant impact IMO.

And yeah we need to ditch the zone, but we're going to have to add a shotblocker and hopefully we'll get a PG that plays D. Otherwise we might as well stick with it, but the main thing I hate about it is that when they do get a stop the other team just gets a rebound anyway. We can't rebound when we play zone.

 

[sactownfan]

Artest has really fallen apart on the defensive end. He seems to have bulked up too much since the Indy defensive player of the year days. hes capable of guarding much bigger players now but hes lost his quickness. He has no side to side quickness like he use to. Also it looks like hes lost his hops as well. Seems to be a Kings epidemic.

He's always been strong and big but he's really really big now.

 

[NewArena]

Artest has really fallen apart on the defensive end. He seems to have bulked up too much since the Indy defensive player of the year days. hes capable of guarding much bigger players now but hes lost his quickness. He has no side to side quickness like he use to. Also it looks like hes lost his hops as well. Seems to be a Kings epidemic.

He's always been strong and big but he's really really big now.

Artest has never had hops to begin with so i dont know what you mean. And when he first got here he admitted he was 260 or over and lost like 15 pounds coming into this season so that isnt too much of a problem. And regardless of what people think, i honestly believe artest has gotten some injuries the last couple of years that he has played through that could hurt him on the defensive end.

 

[ESP47]

He just seems to be a lot bigger than he was in his Pacer days. I doubt he was asked to guard the opposing teams C and PF as much back then as well. He can guard big men better now but the all star SG's are better against him than in the past.

 

[NewArena]

He just seems to be a lot bigger than he was in his Pacer days. I doubt he was asked to guard the opposing teams C and PF as much back then as well. He can guard big men better now but the all star SG's are better against him than in the past.

Meh, a little bit i guess. But of course Artest has had to guard opposing power forwards and centers more because we have no post defenders or big men with any kind of strength. Mikke moore is a toothpick for goodness sake. Once we add a pretty good "true" PF in the near future then Artest can go back to strictly guarding the perimeter.

And thats assuming ron is still here of course.

 

[DirtyAcres]

Where is the thread about Martin's D????

LMAO

 

[ZZE916]

Where is the thread about Martin's D????

LMAO

Martin's what? I don't think he can spell D.

 

[kyo2002]

It seems like he turns it on only when there's a superstar. His game changed over his time in sacramento. Perhaps he's gotten smart to the fact that his tunnel-vision defense was often exploited in decoy plays by opposing teams down the stretch.

 

[Spike]

Where is the thread about Martin's D????

LMAO

Martin hasn't made a living as a "defensive specialist," or "the best two-way player in the NBA," as some (here) have claimed. That's why there isn't a thread.

Now that I think of it, I'm pretty sure there was a thread about Martin and defense earlier in the year.

 

[Bricklayer]

Maybe its fallen off a little. Maybe. he can still be immensely disruptive for stretches. Differences are

a) we play a lot of small ball, having Ron guard big power players. Gee that's worked so well for us. Ron was a DPOY guarding perimeter guys, not PFs.

b) we play a lot of zone to cover up all the bad defenders we have. But in the process it neutralizes the good one we have too by taking him off his man.

c) in Indiana he was the lead pit bull on a pack full of pit bulls urging him on. Defensive intensity feeds on itself. Here he is surrounded by poodles. With half the team taking entire nights off defensively, has to be harder to resist the urge to take the occasional play off, and focus on scoring points like all the pretty boys.

d) its also harder to really lock a guy up defensively on a weak defensive team where you don't get much help on screens, you are never sure where or if rotation help is coming, there is no shotblocking so you can't afford to crowd a guy because if he gets around you its a sure layup, etc.

Throw in Ron beocoming increasingly offensively focused and spending so much energy on that end and it begins to not be surprising that he does not have the nightly impact he once did on the other end.

 

[FakeInjury]

I like Artest because of his intensity on and off the court. Defense is just a byproduct of that intensity. I like how this could rub off on others players; but it doesn't change the fact that he is a role player, trying to fit the mold of a superstar. He is the voice of the team, on and off the court; he leads the team in value, and is talented to boot. At the end of the day there needs to be a less of a burden on the kings salary, and if Ron Artest's usefulness has run its' course, then let it be. I know Ron is a crowd pleaser, entertainer, and a living nightmare for opposing teams, but it would be a little more entertaining if the Kings had the SF slot open come next season. It would serve the kings to run the SF by committee next year because it would show how good of a coach Theus really is, and it would allow for Petrie to evaluate the roster accurately.

 

[upinsmoke]

Damn seems like in some of yours eyes artest cant do any good. Fact is if artest was not wearing our colors we would have sucked sooo much worse this season. Ron cant defend everyone and offensive stars like kobe and t-mac will get their points regardless who is guarding them. Furthermore I cant bealive the rest of the team did not pick up on his intensity early in the season.

 

[VF21]

Maybe its fallen off a little. Maybe. he can still be immensely disruptive for stretches. Differences are

a) we play a lot of small ball, having Ron guard big power players. Gee that's worked so well for us. Ron was a DPOY guarding perimeter guys, not PFs.

b) we play a lot of zone to cover up all the bad defenders we have. But in the process it neutralizes the good one we have too by taking him off his man.

c) in Indiana he was the lead pit bull on a pack full of pit bulls urging him on. Defensive intensity feeds on itself. Here he is surrounded by poodles. With half the team taking entire nights off defensively, has to be harder to resist the urge to take the occasional play off, and focus on scoring points like all the pretty boys.

d) its also harder to really lock a guy up defensively on a weak defensive team where you don't get much help on screens, you are never sure where or if rotation help is coming, there is no shotblocking so you can't afford to crowd a guy because if he gets around you its a sure layup, etc.

Throw in Ron beocoming increasingly offensively focused and spending so much energy on that end and it begins to not be surprising that he does not have the nightly impact he once did on the other end.

So unless I'm misreading you, these are reasons for Artest's decline on defense.

I think the real reason could easily be your last point. And that's the one I think I find the most troublesome. Defensive specialists are a true and rare gem; if he's going to forgo that in his quest to be more offensively focused, we would be much better off going with more of a team player like Garcia IMHO at the SF.

We may not have won the game against the Warriors but it was sure a lot more fun to watch when the entire team was passing the ball, getting assists and playing TEAM ball.

 

[VF21]

Damn seems like in some of yours eyes artest cant do any good. Fact is if artest was not wearing our colors we would have sucked sooo much worse this season. Ron cant defend everyone and offensive stars like kobe and t-mac will get their points regardless who is guarding them. Furthermore I cant bealive the rest of the team did not pick up on his intensity early in the season.

One of Artest's biggest faults is that he may talk like a team player but somewhere deep inside he just isn't a team player. He wants the team to win so desperately that he'll try to do everything himself if he doesn't think those around him can get the job done. And that's just another part of the conundrum that is Ron Artest. You cannot fault his heart or his desire to win or his "warier" mentality, but it's like adding spice to your food. A little is good; too much, however, and you lose the dish. That is what some of us see as happening with Artest. He will never win a championship by himself but he will never put enough faith in the other 4 players on the court to form a truly cohesive team, especially when you're dealing with younger players.

He needs a team around him that will capitalize off his strengths, not play him out of position and negate those strengths, and players who will demand their touches and not let him go ISO every time he gets the ball. Unfortunately, the Kings have not been, are not and will not be that team.

 

[upinsmoke]

Garcia!? cmon man i like the guy but if i had to sum up his game i would use the words "inconsistant" and "passionate". Forget fun games i dont know about you but I prefer to win, Winning is fun to me.

 

[VF21]

No problem. We can certainly agree to disagree. I'd rather see games where the whole team gets involved than the Ron Artest show - and I've been pretty consistent in that regard since the day he was traded.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

No problem. We can certainly agree to disagree. I'd rather see games where the whole team gets involved than the Ron Artest show - and I've been pretty consistent in that regard since the day he was traded.

Even you have to admit he was becoming better at that until the last Laker game.

 

[fnordius]

Forget fun games i dont know about you but I prefer to win

Problem is, for the last couple of years our average game has not been a win, nor has it been fun to watch, which is the worst of both worlds. And, over the last 2 years, we've won 40% of the games where we (had a PG but) didn't have Ron, and about 43% of those where Ron did play. So it's not as if Ron were carrying us to triumph or anything. Sometimes he obviously wins us games, sometimes seems to be doing his best to lose them, but, overall, the difference is within the margin of error; it's statistically insignificant. With or without Ron, we still end up with 35 wins, plus or minus a couple.

 

[diggining]

Problem is, for the last couple of years our average game has not been a win, nor has it been fun to watch, which is the worst of both worlds. And, over the last 2 years, we've won 40% of the games where we (had a PG but) didn't have Ron, and about 43% of those where Ron did play. So it's not as if Ron were carrying us to triumph or anything. Sometimes he obviously wins us games, sometimes seems to be doing his best to lose them, but, overall, the difference is within the margin of error; it's statistically insignificant. With or without Ron, we still end up with 35 wins, plus or minus a couple.

Word. Artest is still a good defender, and he can still dominate on the defensive end when he gets his act together, but it seems that the days in which he feels like playing team-ball are few and far between. Artest also happens to play the position where the Kings actually have decent defensive players--one might argue that Kevin Martin is different enough defensively from Artest, but Salmons is a good defender, and Garcia has improved significantly improved his D since his rookie days.

 

[OptimusRhyme]

artest is our lesser of problems on the defensive end.. Martin needs to play better D and contest shots alot better he needs to get his hand right up in the shooters face like ron ron does.. cover the shooters eyes..
I dont kno why anyone would question rons defence because he brings above average defence every night.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

The problem with our defense is that we don't play good team defense. Individual perimeter defenders are nice and all, but ultimately are overrated in terms of impact. If we ever want to become a good defensive team, then we have to learn to play team defense, which means faster rotations, good communication and a higher level of trust, all anchored by a good defensive big man. Since we don't have that defensive big man, we can never be a good defensive team.

Expecting us to grow into a good defensive team with Mikki and Brad patrolling the paint was wishful thinking in the first place.

 

[fnordius]

The problem with our defense is that we don't play good team defense. Individual perimeter defenders are nice and all, but ultimately are overrated in terms of impact. If we ever want to become a good defensive team, then we have to learn to play team defense, which means faster rotations, good communication and a higher level of trust, all anchored by a good defensive big man. Since we don't have that defensive big man, we can never be a good defensive team.

Excellent point. I remember listening to KHTK during Justin's last game with us, and the commentators were talking about how having him out there totally transformed our team D. The only thing that surprised me was that they seemed to be figuring that obvious fact out for the first time.

Oh well. Hopefully we'll have the basics in place in another 3 or 4 years.

 

[BMiller52]

Excellent point. I remember listening to KHTK during Justin's last game with us, and the commentators were talking about how having him out there totally transformed our team D. The only thing that surprised me was that they seemed to be figuring that obvious fact out for the first time.

Oh well. Hopefully we'll have the basics in place in another 3 or 4 years.

And then we cut him right after Reggie starts giving him PT

 

[PurpleHaze]

And then we cut him right after Reggie starts giving him PT

and then the Rockets signed Justin to a 10-day contract, gave him a look and were not impressed enough to keep him longer. Williams needs to go somewhere, overseas, D-League - to develop his at present rather limited pro skills.

Now in the spirit of this DEFENSE thread back to watching the D being played (lots of zone) with Denver leading GSW 61-60 at the half on TNT. First one to 130 wins?!