and with the #1 pick in the 2009 NBA draft the Kings select...
- Thread starter RiffRaff
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Well, let's hope Rubio learns to shoot a jump shot by the time he turns 19.
And PurpleHaze, he played almost the entire gold medal game against the USA. He wasn't in foul trouble until he sewed the loss for Spain by getting a technical near the end for whining about a foul call, which counts as a foul in international rules.
Fine, yes, 17 years old, great. But first people were saying he's better then Navarro, now they're saying he couldn't possibly be better than Navarro, he's only 17. I'm starting to think people are rooting for the player they want him to be rather than watching the actual games.
And PurpleHaze, he played almost the entire gold medal game against the USA. He wasn't in foul trouble until he sewed the loss for Spain by getting a technical near the end for whining about a foul call, which counts as a foul in international rules.
Fine, yes, 17 years old, great. But first people were saying he's better then Navarro, now they're saying he couldn't possibly be better than Navarro, he's only 17. I'm starting to think people are rooting for the player they want him to be rather than watching the actual games.
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And here is the thing. Calderon couldn't shoot either when he first came into the league, especially from long range. His offensive game consisted of driving to the basket to score and setting up others with the great play making. He shot the ball appaulingly. If he launched a 3 pointer you would he happy if it even hit the rim.
As of right now, Rubio is a better play maker than Calderon who I rate very highly. Calderon worked on him jumper to become a good shooter that he is today. Rubio is 17 or 18 and he has enough time to fix the jumper so that he does become a bit more of a danger but in terms of pure play making ability, this kid is a stud.
As of right now, Rubio is a better play maker than Calderon who I rate very highly. Calderon worked on him jumper to become a good shooter that he is today. Rubio is 17 or 18 and he has enough time to fix the jumper so that he does become a bit more of a danger but in terms of pure play making ability, this kid is a stud.
On Rubio:
Defense: Laterally, not that quick. Has good foot speed. Long arms, very good length for a pg. What he has to me, is a desire for defense. He seems to enjoy picking off passes, picking people, and making the play. Defense, more than anything else in bball, is mental. Shane Battier(slow), Bowen (not athletic), Rodman/Wallace (short for a pf/C, but quick quick hops) are all players that are not prototypical defensive monsters, but they get the job done because of desire and pride. The gerald Wallaces and Artests rely on athleticism, but Shane/Bowen/Rodman were able to be effective defenders past their physical prime because of desire. I think Rubio has that desire. As for playign zone when CP3 comes in... what 6'4" PG in the NBA can guard CP3 by themselves? I don't think it says anything about Rubio at all.
Shot: I agree with you, it is slow as hell. That's partially because he only has a set shot. He will definitely need a jump shot, but for a good jump shot, he needs to get a lot stronger. However, the mechanics of his shot is correctable, imo. He takes a long time bringing the ball up before his release. He has a slight slinging trajectory, but no hitch. His release is where it should be, and his follow through could be a bit truer. His actual release is not that slow, and again, I think it is a product of not being that strong.
Passing: No complaints there right? Creative, willing, and spot on. Great one hand control. Vision is amazing, and his IQ should not be in question.
Athleticism: Again, I think he is fast "enough," but not very quick. You do have to remember that he is 18, and 6'4." He won't look like a CP3. He is still learning his body. His frame is slight, but bodybuilders will tell you that with enough diligence, you can overcome most genetics. He doesn't have the tools to be a force on defense, but if he wants to, I am sure he will be able to be in the upper echelon of pgs. Just his height gives him an advantage at the spot.
Intangibles: I love the control in his game. When he is playing, he is able to impose a speed on the game. Those things are hard to do, and hard to come by. what we need is a gamechanger, and Rubio has the skills and potential to be a legitimate gamechanger. To be able to do what he is doing, at his age, WITHOUT much athleticism, is a testemant to his skills.
I am much with you in that I absolutely hate slow skillful players that cant jump over a credit card, but I dont think that's the case w/Rubio. I don't think Kmart will ever reach his potential with a bibby/mo will pg. With his makeup, we definitely need a true pg, and I dont see anyone truer to passing than this kid.
If I am wrong, so be it, but I'm calling Rubio as a player in the NBA. With CP3, Deron, Devin Harris, Rondo, and Rose around for the next 10 years, I'm not going to say All star (I feel it gets thrown around too much on this board), but I think he will be on the bubble/snubbed.
Defense: Laterally, not that quick. Has good foot speed. Long arms, very good length for a pg. What he has to me, is a desire for defense. He seems to enjoy picking off passes, picking people, and making the play. Defense, more than anything else in bball, is mental. Shane Battier(slow), Bowen (not athletic), Rodman/Wallace (short for a pf/C, but quick quick hops) are all players that are not prototypical defensive monsters, but they get the job done because of desire and pride. The gerald Wallaces and Artests rely on athleticism, but Shane/Bowen/Rodman were able to be effective defenders past their physical prime because of desire. I think Rubio has that desire. As for playign zone when CP3 comes in... what 6'4" PG in the NBA can guard CP3 by themselves? I don't think it says anything about Rubio at all.
Shot: I agree with you, it is slow as hell. That's partially because he only has a set shot. He will definitely need a jump shot, but for a good jump shot, he needs to get a lot stronger. However, the mechanics of his shot is correctable, imo. He takes a long time bringing the ball up before his release. He has a slight slinging trajectory, but no hitch. His release is where it should be, and his follow through could be a bit truer. His actual release is not that slow, and again, I think it is a product of not being that strong.
Passing: No complaints there right? Creative, willing, and spot on. Great one hand control. Vision is amazing, and his IQ should not be in question.
Athleticism: Again, I think he is fast "enough," but not very quick. You do have to remember that he is 18, and 6'4." He won't look like a CP3. He is still learning his body. His frame is slight, but bodybuilders will tell you that with enough diligence, you can overcome most genetics. He doesn't have the tools to be a force on defense, but if he wants to, I am sure he will be able to be in the upper echelon of pgs. Just his height gives him an advantage at the spot.
Intangibles: I love the control in his game. When he is playing, he is able to impose a speed on the game. Those things are hard to do, and hard to come by. what we need is a gamechanger, and Rubio has the skills and potential to be a legitimate gamechanger. To be able to do what he is doing, at his age, WITHOUT much athleticism, is a testemant to his skills.
I am much with you in that I absolutely hate slow skillful players that cant jump over a credit card, but I dont think that's the case w/Rubio. I don't think Kmart will ever reach his potential with a bibby/mo will pg. With his makeup, we definitely need a true pg, and I dont see anyone truer to passing than this kid.
If I am wrong, so be it, but I'm calling Rubio as a player in the NBA. With CP3, Deron, Devin Harris, Rondo, and Rose around for the next 10 years, I'm not going to say All star (I feel it gets thrown around too much on this board), but I think he will be on the bubble/snubbed.
carolija, rhtyhmless, I think all of that is fair and accurate (although still, Calderon is quicker, but we'll set that aside).
On the shooting though, it's not just a matter of practice, he needs to drastically change his form. That's a really big change to make, and 18 is pretty late to be making it. It would be one thing if it just didn't go in. It's slow and he doesn't even jump. He has to have his feet completely set.
Otherwise, I think it just comes down to athleticism and just how much he's able to get by being crafty. I'd rather not take that gamble, but I definitely understand the need to get Kevin Martin a true PG. I think you guys make good points.
On the shooting though, it's not just a matter of practice, he needs to drastically change his form. That's a really big change to make, and 18 is pretty late to be making it. It would be one thing if it just didn't go in. It's slow and he doesn't even jump. He has to have his feet completely set.
Otherwise, I think it just comes down to athleticism and just how much he's able to get by being crafty. I'd rather not take that gamble, but I definitely understand the need to get Kevin Martin a true PG. I think you guys make good points.
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Maybe some of you guys saw it too, but I caught the game between Juventut and Tau on NBA TV. Here's my observation on Rubio. And yes, before anyone say I'm picking on him, I'm do know that he only recently returned from injury so he's probably not close to 100%.
Observation:
#1: He is not fast but he has a quick first and second step. His speed is probably just slightly above average in the general population but in the NBA, at the PG position, where the fastest freaks reigns, his speed is below average as a PG. Several times Rubio was able to get by his man with crafiness but were stopped or turned back by the help defender beause he doesn't have the quickness or the explosiveness to get by the second defender. Like when he loses his man, gets into the lane, and the center came over to help. Normally when a PG is going at the center at full speed it's a mistmatch. Not with Rubio, the center was able to stop Rubio's penatraton by moving laterally and forces Rubio to give up his dribble and pass the ball back out top. This happened several times.
#2: He still needs to learn how to run a team. Juventut had a cold spell starting from the middle of the 3rd quarter to almost the end of the game. Unforced TOs, shot-clock expirations, sloppy passes, poor spacing, bad shots, you name it. When the team is in a funk, that's when the PG should step up and take control. I kept waiting for Rubio to take control, it never happened. In fact, he was part of the problem with a couple of unforced TOs, no point, and no assists during that dry spell. Tau contained Rubio by putting a tall and athletic guy on him (Mustafa Sukur) and their help defense was excellent. It looks like Rubio couldn't break down Tau's defense and then just gave up; for many times he brought the ball up and immediately passed to a teammate and then disappeared. In fact, the coach took Rubio out with less than 6 minutes to go hoping the backup PG would inject some life into the offense.
#3: He is not a good offensive player. He has no in-between game and he often passes up a good shot and gives the ball to a teammate for a tougher shot. I think because he lacks explosiveness, 9 out of 10 times when he drives into the lane he's looking to pass. There is one play, a two on one breakway where Rubio is handling the ball with a defender standing in the lane. He got to about 10 feet from the basket, normally you think an NBA PG would explode to the rim and laid it in. Rubio took one look at the defender and passed the ball to a teammate for a 3 pt shot, his teammate missed.
#4: He has defensive intensity. I don't think he'll ever be named to any NBA all-defensive team, but he is a pest nonetheless. I think he can be a Sasha Vujacic type of pestky defender, someone who uses effort to make up for what he lacks physically. Rubio has problems fighting through screens though.
#5: He's great at exploiting mistakes. If there's an open man, he'll find him. If there's a mismatch, he'll spot it. But the problem arise when there is no open man and no mismatches; when his opponent is playing great defense Rubio has no solution. When you think of great PGs, you think of guys who can create something out of nothing. Rubio doesn't have that ability. At least not yet.
#6: He has great bball IQ. He just seems to know what to do and where to be; defensively as well as offensively.
The above should not be taken to mean I don't like Rubio or that I don't want the Kings to draft him. My feeling right now is that he is simply too young to judge. Maybe some of you are better judges and have a clearer crystal balls than I do. But I can't say for certain at this point how good he'll be. He has what you can't teach - size, desire and the ability to run a team. But he lacks some other things that may hurt him.
Observation:
#1: He is not fast but he has a quick first and second step. His speed is probably just slightly above average in the general population but in the NBA, at the PG position, where the fastest freaks reigns, his speed is below average as a PG. Several times Rubio was able to get by his man with crafiness but were stopped or turned back by the help defender beause he doesn't have the quickness or the explosiveness to get by the second defender. Like when he loses his man, gets into the lane, and the center came over to help. Normally when a PG is going at the center at full speed it's a mistmatch. Not with Rubio, the center was able to stop Rubio's penatraton by moving laterally and forces Rubio to give up his dribble and pass the ball back out top. This happened several times.
#2: He still needs to learn how to run a team. Juventut had a cold spell starting from the middle of the 3rd quarter to almost the end of the game. Unforced TOs, shot-clock expirations, sloppy passes, poor spacing, bad shots, you name it. When the team is in a funk, that's when the PG should step up and take control. I kept waiting for Rubio to take control, it never happened. In fact, he was part of the problem with a couple of unforced TOs, no point, and no assists during that dry spell. Tau contained Rubio by putting a tall and athletic guy on him (Mustafa Sukur) and their help defense was excellent. It looks like Rubio couldn't break down Tau's defense and then just gave up; for many times he brought the ball up and immediately passed to a teammate and then disappeared. In fact, the coach took Rubio out with less than 6 minutes to go hoping the backup PG would inject some life into the offense.
#3: He is not a good offensive player. He has no in-between game and he often passes up a good shot and gives the ball to a teammate for a tougher shot. I think because he lacks explosiveness, 9 out of 10 times when he drives into the lane he's looking to pass. There is one play, a two on one breakway where Rubio is handling the ball with a defender standing in the lane. He got to about 10 feet from the basket, normally you think an NBA PG would explode to the rim and laid it in. Rubio took one look at the defender and passed the ball to a teammate for a 3 pt shot, his teammate missed.
#4: He has defensive intensity. I don't think he'll ever be named to any NBA all-defensive team, but he is a pest nonetheless. I think he can be a Sasha Vujacic type of pestky defender, someone who uses effort to make up for what he lacks physically. Rubio has problems fighting through screens though.
#5: He's great at exploiting mistakes. If there's an open man, he'll find him. If there's a mismatch, he'll spot it. But the problem arise when there is no open man and no mismatches; when his opponent is playing great defense Rubio has no solution. When you think of great PGs, you think of guys who can create something out of nothing. Rubio doesn't have that ability. At least not yet.
#6: He has great bball IQ. He just seems to know what to do and where to be; defensively as well as offensively.
The above should not be taken to mean I don't like Rubio or that I don't want the Kings to draft him. My feeling right now is that he is simply too young to judge. Maybe some of you are better judges and have a clearer crystal balls than I do. But I can't say for certain at this point how good he'll be. He has what you can't teach - size, desire and the ability to run a team. But he lacks some other things that may hurt him.
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You need to be laterally quick to be a good defender and have great desire. One without the other is worthless. Bowen is very athletic. Rubio is known to have extemely quick hands (Kobe says so), which isn't a bad thing either, as we saw with Artest.
PS Thompson is going to be a very good defensive player because he has the lateral quicks and the desire.
PS Thompson is going to be a very good defensive player because he has the lateral quicks and the desire.
Well, you and I are the antithesis of one another. Perhaps because I'm a throwback to the 50's. I will take skill over athleticism any day of the week. Now give me a skilled player with athleticism and I'm on board big time. The last time I checked, Brad, Peja, and Bibby were all starters on the team that almost won the whole thing.
I don't think that the league is more athletic now than it was 30 years ago. At least where the stars are concerned. Are you going to tell me that Moses Malone, Wilt Chamberlin, Oscar Robertson, and I could go on and on, wern't athletic? What you have now, are athletic players without the skills that they had 30 years ago. So its harder to make a judgement.
As far as Rubio is concerned. I really don't have an opinion on him one way or the other. All I have to go on is what I saw in the olympic's. For all I know he had the flu, or perhaps a bad game. My point is, that its hard to judge him on what I saw in such a limited way. However, your willing to give license to Thabeet to correct his flaws, but not to Rubio to correct his. Athleticism aside, I see more raw talent in Rubio than I see in Thabeet.
I don't think that the league is more athletic now than it was 30 years ago. At least where the stars are concerned. Are you going to tell me that Moses Malone, Wilt Chamberlin, Oscar Robertson, and I could go on and on, wern't athletic? What you have now, are athletic players without the skills that they had 30 years ago. So its harder to make a judgement.
As far as Rubio is concerned. I really don't have an opinion on him one way or the other. All I have to go on is what I saw in the olympic's. For all I know he had the flu, or perhaps a bad game. My point is, that its hard to judge him on what I saw in such a limited way. However, your willing to give license to Thabeet to correct his flaws, but not to Rubio to correct his. Athleticism aside, I see more raw talent in Rubio than I see in Thabeet.
Those guys were athletic for their time, and there are singular athletes like Dr. J who would still be considered very athletic if they suited up today. But top to bottom, the league has changed. It's gotten far, far more athletic. Even 8 years ago, in the playoffs Bibby was going up against Derek Fisher, Jason Kidd, pre-aweome Steve Nash, Sam Cassell... the best point guards weren't that quick. Brevin Knight was probably the quickest guy in the league and he was a limited player. Now you have Chris Paul, Tony Parker, TJ Ford, Leandro Barbosa... I mean, this new generation is just faster than the last one. They're insanely athletic and insanely skilled.
Take Peja. When the Kings were awesome you didn't have LeBron, Carmelo, Wade, and Gerald Wallace was riding the pine.
The game has gotten more athletic. Yeah, there were great athletes in the past. But particularly now that they call hand-checks, there's a vast premium on speed and athleticism. There's a reason the Kings suck defensively -- they're not an athletic team.
Take Peja. When the Kings were awesome you didn't have LeBron, Carmelo, Wade, and Gerald Wallace was riding the pine.
The game has gotten more athletic. Yeah, there were great athletes in the past. But particularly now that they call hand-checks, there's a vast premium on speed and athleticism. There's a reason the Kings suck defensively -- they're not an athletic team.
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I'm glad to see you coming to your senses about Thabeet.
I'm not sure about this point. I agree the game has gotten more athletic since the 50s, but in 2002 AI, Baron Davis, Steve Francis and a number of other very quick PGs were around. Now, the fact we did not have to face any of them in the playoffs almost proves the point that you are better off with the skilled player as long as they have a certain base level of physical abilities.
Please tell me how Thabeet will be flourish in the NBA. Please don't say defense because he's constantly abused by smaller quicker players, and does not have the strength to go against bigger centers (as we saw vs. Hibbert). He can block shots, but defensively he's still VERY raw. He has no offense to speak of.
This is what I think, and YES I have watched him quite a bit.. We have a 7'3 Justin Williams. That's why I wont ever like picking a guy like Thabeet if we had a top pick. I will take skilled players over raw players 100 out of 100 times.
This is what I think, and YES I have watched him quite a bit.. We have a 7'3 Justin Williams. That's why I wont ever like picking a guy like Thabeet if we had a top pick. I will take skilled players over raw players 100 out of 100 times.
That's a fair point. I think on average, though, rather than being the exceptions, it's now the norm to have a very quick point guard, and even the ones who aren't as quick (Beno, Luke Ridnour, etc.) would have still been on the "quick" side of the spectrum seven or eight years ago. And the SF position has gotten far, far more athletic now that we've entered an era with LeBron, Carmelo, Durant, etc. etc.
I mean, Wally and Peja were all-stars. I don't think that era is coming back.
I mean, Wally and Peja were all-stars. I don't think that era is coming back.
Allow me to quote yourself back to yourself:
Jordan is even rawer than Thabeet right now, and not even as athletic, nor as tall, nor did he do half of what Thabeet has already accomplished in college.
Now, why don't you tell me how you see Thabeet succeeding? And you always go for the skilled guy over the raw one?
Jordan is even rawer than Thabeet right now, and not even as athletic, nor as tall, nor did he do half of what Thabeet has already accomplished in college.
Now, why don't you tell me how you see Thabeet succeeding? And you always go for the skilled guy over the raw one?
And that's a good bet 99% of the time. I think the problem with players who have physical abilities but lack skill is that people want to believe they will develop those skills in the NBA, but the question should be "why haven't they developed those skills alread." In some rare cases, a player might be extremely bright and hard working, but have picked up basketball late in their lives. However, in most cases, if a player has been playing for years and is still just relying on their physical abilities, they probably lack the discipline/work ethic to improve or the intellectual capacity to learn. This is why these raw, college players do not develop 99% of the time into anything. The best way to guess what someone will do in the future is by looking at what they have done in the past and if someone doesn't have the dedication to develop their basketball skills despite being a NBA prospect in high school or college, they probably won't put in any type of sustained effort once they reach the pros and get paid.
Allow me to quote yourself back to yourself:
Jordan is even rawer than Thabeet right now, and not even as athletic, nor as tall, nor did he do half of what Thabeet has already accomplished in college.
Now, why don't you tell me how you see Thabeet succeeding? And you always go for the skilled guy over the raw one?
Jordan is even rawer than Thabeet right now, and not even as athletic, nor as tall, nor did he do half of what Thabeet has already accomplished in college.
Now, why don't you tell me how you see Thabeet succeeding? And you always go for the skilled guy over the raw one?
Jordan suffered from limited minutes in a horrible system for him which was well documented. Sporadic minutes, and limited chances to thrive.
Thabeet has had chances and he does the same thing EVERY year. Eat up the small schools, pad his stats, and then suck it up in conference play. Gee.. He's doing it again this year. What a surprise.
I agree with the SF point more, but I also see that as being more of a talent influx than anything. Heck, even in 2002 it wasn't bad - Kobe, VC and TMac were all incredibly gifted and fast atheletes.
The SF dominance now though is more of a temporary rise that has happened before. I mean a few years before 2002, the league had Jordan, Drexler, Wilkins and the SF position was stacked and uber-athletic. Then we saw a wave of freaky big men (Duncan, Webber, Shaq, KG) and now we seem to be moving back to a SF dominated league. So yes, I would be very nervous not having at least one very athletic, defensive oriented wing defender.
The SF dominance now though is more of a temporary rise that has happened before. I mean a few years before 2002, the league had Jordan, Drexler, Wilkins and the SF position was stacked and uber-athletic. Then we saw a wave of freaky big men (Duncan, Webber, Shaq, KG) and now we seem to be moving back to a SF dominated league. So yes, I would be very nervous not having at least one very athletic, defensive oriented wing defender.
I disagree that his offense is better. Thabeet is a far better free throw shooter, which either means he's more coordinated or he's practiced more. While neither one of them is anthing to write home about offensively Thabeet also can score in the post, even if he doesn't get the ball often and isn't what you could call much of a threat (and I agree with people that he needs to dunk more). Jordan is raw raw raw raw raw. You're being disingenuous if you say he's more polished.
Trust me, I think it's concerning that Thabeet has not come up big in some big games, and I've listed his flaws elsewhere. I'm going to watch the UConn/Notre Dame game tonight, but everything I've read about it was said Thabeet was a force defensively.
There's more to the game than offense. Thabeet has the potential to be a special, special defensive player. Yes, he's struggled against quick players. Yes, he struggled against Hibbert. But you draft people because they have raw tools you like in the hopes that they'll get better.
He's a freak of an athlete for 7'3". DeAndre Jordan and his 20 rebounds the other night show what an athletic center can do in the NBA.
Trust me, I think it's concerning that Thabeet has not come up big in some big games, and I've listed his flaws elsewhere. I'm going to watch the UConn/Notre Dame game tonight, but everything I've read about it was said Thabeet was a force defensively.
There's more to the game than offense. Thabeet has the potential to be a special, special defensive player. Yes, he's struggled against quick players. Yes, he struggled against Hibbert. But you draft people because they have raw tools you like in the hopes that they'll get better.
He's a freak of an athlete for 7'3". DeAndre Jordan and his 20 rebounds the other night show what an athletic center can do in the NBA.
Which is my problem with Thabeet. He has no fire in his belly. You always see the guards like Price, and Dyson in there mixing it up more than you see Thabeet when it comes to rebounding the ball. If I HAD to get a rebound I would take the 6'7 Adrien over 7'3 Thabeet if that tells you anything.
nbrans will not convince me to like Thabeet and I will not convince him to not like him so we are at a stalemate. But it's fun to argue our points.
nbrans will not convince me to like Thabeet and I will not convince him to not like him so we are at a stalemate. But it's fun to argue our points.
I know there is a chance he can become good. He wouldn't be highly regarded if there wasn't. I would be the first to say I was wrong. But I am not about to call him "good" defensively until he does something more than block a few shots and alter a few others, because man on man against the NCAA elite that he has to guard usually put up big numbers on him.
Yeah. We'll see in the tournament. Unfortunately there just aren't many good centers in college right now, so he's not going up against the type of players he's going to be guarding in the NBA. I know the Hibbert game was not good. I think he's gotten better since then. Hopefully we see a true test. Watching him go up against 6'8" power forwards isn't really the best test case.
Which is my problem with Thabeet. He has no fire in his belly. You always see the guards like Price, and Dyson in there mixing it up more than you see Thabeet when it comes to rebounding the ball. If I HAD to get a rebound I would take the 6'7 Adrien over 7'3 Thabeet if that tells you anything.
nbrans will not convince me to like Thabeet and I will not convince him to not like him so we are at a stalemate. But it's fun to argue our points.
nbrans will not convince me to like Thabeet and I will not convince him to not like him so we are at a stalemate. But it's fun to argue our points.