And here is the thing. Calderon couldn't shoot either when he first came into the league, especially from long range. His offensive game consisted of driving to the basket to score and setting up others with the great play making. He shot the ball appaulingly. If he launched a 3 pointer you would he happy if it even hit the rim.I don't see him as a Calderon -- he's not as quick (not that Calederon is overwhelmingly quick, but he's quicker than Rubio), and Calderon can shoot really well, which is a big part of his game. Rubio can't shoot. His jumper is not only ugly and not very accurate, he takes forever to get it off and thus it's not at all a reliable weapon to open up his passing game. (Navarro played far better than Rubio in the Gold Medal game, btw)
I know Rubio's supposed to be a good defender, but Spain played zone whenever Chris Paul came in, which tells you something, and I wasn't really impressed with his defense when he was guarding guys one on one.
I don't see him as a Calderon -- he's not as quick (not that Calederon is overwhelmingly quick, but he's quicker than Rubio), and Calderon can shoot really well, which is a big part of his game. Rubio can't shoot. His jumper is not only ugly and not very accurate, he takes forever to get it off and thus it's not at all a reliable weapon to open up his passing game. (Navarro played far better than Rubio in the Gold Medal game, btw)
I definitely agree with you that I would prefer a PG on the pure/passing spectrum, particularly if Kevin Martin is on the team, because Kevin really needs to be set up in order to be the most effecitve. And Teague isn't that kind of a point guard. But there just isn't an athletic passing point guard in this draft, other than Collison, who is looking worse and worse as the season goes on. So barring The Gambit, if I were Petrie I'd draft Teague and hope his ability to break down the defense and get out on the break compliments Kevin's game. Teague has the raw skills, and I'd hope he'd look to pass more in the NBA.
Here's the bias I'm bringing to the table: I'm sick, sick, sick of unathletic players on the Kings. Bibby drove me crazy, Peja drove me crazy, Brad drove me crazy, late model Shareef drove me crazy when he started breaking down. The Kings need athletes. The league is getting faster, stronger, and more athletic. I can't bear to watch anymore throwback guys.
On Rubio:
Defense: Laterally, not that quick. Has good foot speed. Long arms, very good length for a pg. What he has to me, is a desire for defense. He seems to enjoy picking off passes, picking people, and making the play. Defense, more than anything else in bball, is mental. Shane Battier(slow), Bowen (not athletic), Rodman/Wallace (short for a pf/C, but quick quick hops) are all players that are not prototypical defensive monsters, but they get the job done because of desire and pride. The gerald Wallaces and Artests rely on athleticism, but Shane/Bowen/Rodman were able to be effective defenders past their physical prime because of desire. I think Rubio has that desire. As for playign zone when CP3 comes in... what 6'4" PG in the NBA can guard CP3 by themselves? I don't think it says anything about Rubio at all.
I watched the UConn/Notre Dame game. Something tells me that Harangody will be a decent player in the NBA. Yeah, I know he's undersized. He's listed at 6'8", but reports say that he's closer to 6'7". If I could just put Harangody's brain into Thabeet's body, WOW, what a player we would have.
There's no denying that Thabeet changed Harangody's game, but he didn't stop him from scoring and out rebounding him. And please don't tell me that Harangody is a tough match-up fot Thabeet. Harangody isn't a 6'7" quick small forward. He's a short, slow, 265 pound white guy that can't jump.
Thabeet still makes the same mistakes over and over again. He continues to miss layups. He's 7'3" for god's sake. Just dunk the ball. He still has the habit of bringing the ball down to his waist when he recieves an inlet pass. Brings back memories of Causwell, who constantly made the same mistake. The biggest thing about Thabeet that bothers me, is that just doesn't seem to have a fire in his gut.. You could really see the contrast between Thabeet and Harangody. Lets be honest here. Thabeet is an athletic 7'3" player, that should be able to score at will against a lot of the competition. But he doesn't or can't. It makes me wonder just how bad he'll be in the NBA.
Right now: Teague Teague and Teague.
He has question marks, though, namely that he's not really a true point guard. But I think he could be the next great scoring point. He's one of the quickest points I've ever seen.
The reason I keep criticizing this draft and am generally cranky about it is that this draft is a muddle. There aren't any sure things, and it's kind of driving me crazy that this, of all years, is the year that we're finally going to have a high pick. We could still absolutely come away with a star, but there are a lot of guys, especially Rubio, that I'm really nervous about.
I will bet that people on message boards continue to forever fall in love with the Shelden Williamses and Adam Morrisons of the draft because they like the way they play, forgetting that the NBA game is different than the college game.
I will readily admit that I might just not be seeing this one right and may look positively stupid someday when someone re-quotes me this thread, but watching USA/Spain over the summer and again this week online, Rubio looks roughly as quick and athletic as Jason Kidd right now, as in the Jason Kidd who is 35 years old. Kidd isn't taking the Mavericks anywhere despite having all the passing and savvy in the world in large part because he's not quick enough to guard anyone anymore. Rubio's really crafty, he's good at changing speeds and fooling guys. But I worry that he's not really going to be quick enough to get around people, and he'd be a defensive liability. I know Rubio's supposed to be a good defender, but Spain played zone whenever Chris Paul came in, which tells you something, and I wasn't really impressed with his defense when he was guarding guys one on one.
I don't see him as a Calderon -- he's not as quick (not that Calederon is overwhelmingly quick, but he's quicker than Rubio), and Calderon can shoot really well, which is a big part of his game. Rubio can't shoot. His jumper is not only ugly and not very accurate, he takes forever to get it off and thus it's not at all a reliable weapon to open up his passing game. (Navarro played far better than Rubio in the Gold Medal game, btw)
I definitely agree with you that I would prefer a PG on the pure/passing spectrum, particularly if Kevin Martin is on the team, because Kevin really needs to be set up in order to be the most effecitve. And Teague isn't that kind of a point guard. But there just isn't an athletic passing point guard in this draft, other than Collison, who is looking worse and worse as the season goes on. So barring The Gambit, if I were Petrie I'd draft Teague and hope his ability to break down the defense and get out on the break compliments Kevin's game. Teague has the raw skills, and I'd hope he'd look to pass more in the NBA.
Here's the bias I'm bringing to the table: I'm sick, sick, sick of unathletic players on the Kings. Bibby drove me crazy, Peja drove me crazy, Brad drove me crazy, late model Shareef drove me crazy when he started breaking down. The Kings need athletes. The league is getting faster, stronger, and more athletic. I can't bear to watch anymore throwback guys.
nbrans said:I'm starting to think people are rooting for the player they want him to be rather than watching the actual games.
I'm glad to see you coming to your senses about Thabeet.![]()
Those guys were athletic for their time, and there are singular athletes like Dr. J who would still be considered very athletic if they suited up today. But top to bottom, the league has changed. It's gotten far, far more athletic. Even 8 years ago, in the playoffs Bibby was going up against Derek Fisher, Jason Kidd, pre-aweome Steve Nash, Sam Cassell... the best point guards weren't that quick. Brevin Knight was probably the quickest guy in the league and he was a limited player. Now you have Chris Paul, Tony Parker, TJ Ford, Leandro Barbosa... I mean, this new generation is just faster than the last one. They're insanely athletic and insanely skilled.
Take Peja. When the Kings were awesome you didn't have LeBron, Carmelo, Wade, and Gerald Wallace was riding the pine.
The game has gotten more athletic. Yeah, there were great athletes in the past. But particularly now that they call hand-checks, there's a vast premium on speed and athleticism. There's a reason the Kings suck defensively -- they're not an athletic team.
Uhh....... have I not been PERFECTLY CLEAR about what I see as the relative flaws of both players? You don't value athleticism. Your choice. I do. Stop acting like I'm just cherry picking what I want to see. I've devoted plenty of space to Thabeet's flaws. Plenty. I don't see him as a perfect option, just one of the "least bad" options in this draft.
I'm not sure about this point. I agree the game has gotten more athletic since the 50s, but in 2002 AI, Baron Davis, Steve Francis and a number of other very quick PGs were around. Now, the fact we did not have to face any of them in the playoffs almost proves the point that you are better off with the skilled player as long as they have a certain base level of physical abilities.
Please tell me how Thabeet will be flourish in the NBA. Please don't say defense because he's constantly abused by smaller quicker players, and does not have the strength to go against bigger centers (as we saw vs. Hibbert). He can block shots, but defensively he's still VERY raw. He has no offense to speak of.
This is what I think, and YES I have watched him quite a bit.. We have a 7'3 Justin Williams. That's why I wont ever like picking a guy like Thabeet if we had a top pick. I will take skilled players over raw players 100 out of 100 times.
On a different subject has anyone been watching DeAndre Jordan since he has gotten a few starts? I still wonder how he slipped. I had been talking up this guy for a few months before his first college game...
He finally got a starting nod, and good solid minutes for the first time, and he has put up these stats..
10.5ppg 12.3rpg (4.8 offensive boards per game) 3.0bpg
Nice eh? I have a feeling that Petrie had a chance to get a few guys that could have helped the Kings. There were 2nd rounders going for cash this year, and some were traded for later 2nd rounders. Chalmers, Jordan, CDR were some of the names we might have been able to get had Petrie felt like dealing. Instead we got Singletary, and waste of a pick JR.
Please tell me how Thabeet will be flourish in the NBA. Please don't say defense because he's constantly abused by smaller quicker players, and does not have the strength to go against bigger centers (as we saw vs. Hibbert). He can block shots, but defensively he's still VERY raw. He has no offense to speak of.
This is what I think, and YES I have watched him quite a bit.. We have a 7'3 Justin Williams. That's why I wont ever like picking a guy like Thabeet if we had a top pick. I will take skilled players over raw players 100 out of 100 times.
Thabeet reminds me of Jordan last year, as he is still very raw (I'm not comparing the 2). Thabeet has the edge with height, so I don't think he's gonna slip much, but honestly I'd be very surprised if he ever makes an All-star team
Allow me to quote yourself back to yourself:
Jordan is even rawer than Thabeet right now, and not even as athletic, nor as tall, nor did he do half of what Thabeet has already accomplished in college.
Now, why don't you tell me how you see Thabeet succeeding? And you always go for the skilled guy over the raw one?![]()
That's a fair point. I think on average, though, rather than being the exceptions, it's now the norm to have a very quick point guard, and even the ones who aren't as quick (Beno, Luke Ridnour, etc.) would have still been on the "quick" side of the spectrum seven or eight years ago. And the SF position has gotten far, far more athletic now that we've entered an era with LeBron, Carmelo, Durant, etc. etc.
I mean, Wally and Peja were all-stars. I don't think that era is coming back.
Jordan can defend though. His offense is also better than Thabeet, but I would not call either one of their offensive games a threat at any given time. Jordan is more fundamentally sound. Probably because he has a few more years of organized basketball experience.
And that's a good bet 99% of the time. I think the problem with players who have physical abilities but lack skill is that people want to believe they will develop those skills in the NBA, but the question should be "why haven't they developed those skills alread." In some rare cases, a player might be extremely bright and hard working, but have picked up basketball late in their lives. However, in most cases, if a player has been playing for years and is still just relying on their physical abilities, they probably lack the discipline/work ethic to improve or the intellectual capacity to learn. This is why these raw, college players do not develop 99% of the time into anything. The best way to guess what someone will do in the future is by looking at what they have done in the past and if someone doesn't have the dedication to develop their basketball skills despite being a NBA prospect in high school or college, they probably won't put in any type of sustained effort once they reach the pros and get paid.
I agree with the SF point more, but I also see that as being more of a talent influx than anything. Heck, even in 2002 it wasn't bad - Kobe, VC and TMac were all incredibly gifted and fast atheletes.
The SF dominance now though is more of a temporary rise that has happened before. I mean a few years before 2002, the league had Jordan, Drexler, Wilkins and the SF position was stacked and uber-athletic. Then we saw a wave of freaky big men (Duncan, Webber, Shaq, KG) and now we seem to be moving back to a SF dominated league. So yes, I would be very nervous not having at least one very athletic, defensive oriented wing defender.
I disagree that his offense is better. Thabeet is a far better free throw shooter, which either means he's more coordinated or he's practiced more. While neither one of them is anthing to write home about offensively Thabeet also can score in the post, even if he doesn't get the ball often and isn't what you could call much of a threat (and I agree with people that he needs to dunk more). Jordan is raw raw raw raw raw. You're being disingenuous if you say he's more polished.
Trust me, I think it's concerning that Thabeet has not come up big in some big games, and I've listed his flaws elsewhere. I'm going to watch the UConn/Notre Dame game tonight, but everything I've read about it was said Thabeet was a force defensively.
There's more to the game than offense. Thabeet has the potential to be a special, special defensive player. Yes, he's struggled against quick players. Yes, he struggled against Hibbert. But you draft people because they have raw tools you like in the hopes that they'll get better.
He's a freak of an athlete for 7'3". DeAndre Jordan and his 20 rebounds the other night show what an athletic center can do in the NBA.
I know there is a chance he can become good. He wouldn't be highly regarded if there wasn't. I would be the first to say I was wrong. But I am not about to call him "good" defensively until he does something more than block a few shots and alter a few others, because man on man against the NCAA elite that he has to guard usually put up big numbers on him.
Which is my problem with Thabeet. He has no fire in his belly. You always see the guards like Price, and Dyson in there mixing it up more than you see Thabeet when it comes to rebounding the ball. If I HAD to get a rebound I would take the 6'7 Adrien over 7'3 Thabeet if that tells you anything.
nbrans will not convince me to like Thabeet and I will not convince him to not like him so we are at a stalemate. But it's fun to argue our points.![]()