and with the #1 pick in the 2009 NBA draft the Kings select...

[KingGiant49erFan]

Definitely: that play was sweet, sweet, sweet. It was awesome. Absolutely one of the best plays I've seen all season.

But here's what I mean on the size thing. Griffin was going up against guys who were 6'6" and skinny. They would be shooting guards in the NBA, only they're not that athletic. Of course Griffin is going to dominate offensively in that scenario. He's bigger and stronger, and still quick. He wasn't getting his points through many crafty moves -- for the most part they were garbage points. He was able to pass out of doubles by dribbling away, but he never made the defense pay, and he had 7 turnovers.

In the NBA he's going to be going up against 6'10" and 6'11" guys. Put him out there against NBA power forwards and suddenly he can't get those garbage points as easily, and he's going to have to rely on his skills, which are still relatively raw. It's going to be a major adjustment. If he's 6'9" he'll probably be able to adjust. 6'8" and below? He'll still probably be good, but I don't think good enough to justify a #1 pick.

Alright I can respect that, although I believe that he has shown a pretty good set of post moves/ability to score in other ways. I think this will translate, and am nearly positive that his rebounding ability will be well above average at the next level. He also, to me, seems to have that Tim Duncanesque dispostion to not get flustered/show emotion yet still be extremely determined as a player. If he measures out to be 6 9 then im sold.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

So then, the only part where I disagree is that I tend to side more with the Rubio skeptics in that I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that he will be a star in the NBA. The scouts drool over him, and they watch a lot more international ball than I do, but I haven't been that impressed with anything I've seen from him. At least not enough to call him a star. And I also think his lack of athleticism might be a problem. I was just as impressed with Sergio Rodriguez' playmaking skills before he was drafted, and he hasn't done much in the league yet because he's not a good defender, he doesn't have the speed to blow by anyone, and he doesn't have a consistent jump shot. If defense is going to be a problem for Rubio too, that might be enough reasons to look somewhere else.
.

I agree on this, although I don't think any of the players are guarentees. I do like Jennings more than most too. I think he is actually getting underrated by his experience in Europe.

 

[bajaden]

Definitely: that play was sweet, sweet, sweet. It was awesome. Absolutely one of the best plays I've seen all season.

But here's what I mean on the size thing. Griffin was going up against guys who were 6'6" and skinny. They would be shooting guards in the NBA, only they're not that athletic. Of course Griffin is going to dominate offensively in that scenario. He's bigger and stronger, and still quick. He wasn't getting his points through many crafty moves -- for the most part they were garbage points. He was able to pass out of doubles by dribbling away, but he never made the defense pay, and he had 7 turnovers.

In the NBA he's going to be going up against 6'10" and 6'11" guys. Put him out there against NBA power forwards and suddenly he can't get those garbage points as easily, and he's going to have to rely on his skills, which are still relatively raw. It's going to be a major adjustment. If he's 6'9" he'll probably be able to adjust. 6'8" and below? He'll still probably be good, but I don't think good enough to justify a #1 pick.

I'm not quite sure why we seem to disageee on so many players. Anyway, I've watched Griffin for two years now and I've seen almost every game thats been televised. I don't know how tall he is, but he's more skilled than your giving him credit for. He's more athletic than a lot of people are giving him credit for ( not you ). When you take his skill level into account along with the fact that he's still just a sophmore, I think his accomplishments are pretty impressive.

He's one of three players that have had 9 games of 20 points and 15 rebounds in the same season. Duncan is also one of the three. He plays in a tough conference and has had several tough out of conference games. This isn't meant to cherry pick, but you criticize Griffin for playing well and sometimes dominating against smaller, inferior competition but you cut Thabeet some slack for not dominating against smaller and inferior competition.

I know your looking for a homerun and you see the possibility of that with Thabeet. I'm not sure I see that possibility with any of the players in the draft, if by homerun you mean a star or superstar player. I think Griffin will be a good NBA player. I think that Harden will be a good NBA player. Ditto for several others. I question whether any of them will be great players. I like Teague, but I'm not sure what he is. I'm not a big fan of converting shooting guards into point guards. I wish I had five or six picks in the first round to increase my chances of getting someone great.

Almost all the players have flaws, so I tend to go with the players that have the fewest. I guess I'm just a, play it safe kind of guy. It would be nice to discuss this over a couple of cervesa's sometime.

 

[nbrans]

I think Griffin has good nascent skills more than he's polished, but that's fine for his age.

And trust me, I like Griffin better than Thabeet as long as Griffin is 6'9". If he's 6'9" in shoes or taller he deserves to go #1. Given that we have Thompson I still think it might be worth contemplating trading down, but Griffin has very good athleticism and shows the makings of good skills. As long as he's properly sized I have no problem with him going #1.

Re: Thabeet and making exceptions for size, the difference, to me, is that Thabeet is still going to be the tallest guy on the floor in the NBA. His game isn't going to be that different. Thabeet struggles somewhat against quick bigs, but that's actually less of a problem in the NBA because he's going to be going up pretty much exclusively against centers who are slower than he is rather than 6'8" power forwards. It's a much bigger transition for Griffin because he's used to dominating those 6'8" power forwards with strength and size, and those things that aren't going to be there in the NBA when he's going up against guys who are bigger and stronger.

Anyway, still think Griffin is the better prospect.

 

[KingGiant49erFan]

I think Griffin has good nascent skills more than he's polished, but that's fine for his age.

And trust me, I like Griffin better than Thabeet as long as Griffin is 6'9". If he's 6'9" in shoes or taller he deserves to go #1. Given that we have Thompson I still think it might be worth contemplating trading down, but Griffin has very good athleticism and shows the makings of good skills. As long as he's properly sized I have no problem with him going #1.

Re: Thabeet and making exceptions for size, the difference, to me, is that Thabeet is still going to be the tallest guy on the floor in the NBA. His game isn't going to be that different. Thabeet struggles somewhat against quick bigs, but that's actually less of a problem in the NBA because he's going to be going up pretty much exclusively against centers who are slower than he is rather than 6'8" power forwards. It's a much bigger transition for Griffin because he's used to dominating those 6'8" power forwards with strength and size, and those things that aren't going to be there in the NBA when he's going up against guys who are bigger and stronger.

Anyway, still think Griffin is the better prospect.

When you're drafting in the top 5 I just don't think you pass on a Blake Griffin because of a Jason Thompson. I like Thompson a lot, and if he develops into a star then thats great, thats a problem I would love to have to deal with--later. That being said, if we traded down I would be an advocate for Derozan (unless of course his stock rises to the point that we might need to draft him with our pick to get him, which I definitely wouldn't count out)

 

[nbrans]

When you're drafting in the top 5 I just don't think you pass on a Blake Griffin because of a Jason Thompson. I like Thompson a lot, and if he develops into a star then thats great, thats a problem I would love to have to deal with--later. That being said, if we traded down I would be an advocate for Derozan (unless of course his stock rises to the point that we might need to draft him with our pick to get him, which I definitely wouldn't count out)

I just feel like, in this draft the difference between the top prospects really isn't that huge. So, for instance, if you can get Jeff Teague plus another pick or prospect by trading the #1, I think it would be worth considering. I don't think Griffin is such a special prospect that you absolutely have to take him if the Kings get the #1 pick.

But in any event, all of that is just purely hypothetical, and I'd be happy with Griffin (again, if he's 6'9"). He's definitely athletic.

 

[nbrans]

Kentucky/Ole Miss-

Ole Miss was just all over Jodie Meeks, swarming him whenever he put the ball on teh floor, and really struggled shooting it. Still able to get to the free throw line, and he really, really hustles all-out on D, but guys will just shoot over him, which is only going to be more of a problem in the NBA.

Really not impressed with Patrick Patterson. Just doesn't have the size and athleticism.

Another frosh to keep an eye on: Terrico White. Shooting guard for Ole Miss, and playing out of position at the point for Ole Miss with some good passing. Had a really sick dunk in traffic over both of Kentucky's bigs, and already has some good range on his jump shot. Unfortunately he's listed at 6'5" and that's extremely generous, so not sure he's got great size for the SG position. Finished with 21 and 7 assists.

 

[SacTownKid]

Kentucky/Ole Miss-

Ole Miss was just all over Jodie Meeks, swarming him whenever he put the ball on teh floor, and really struggled shooting it. Still able to get to the free throw line, and he really, really hustles all-out on D, but guys will just shoot over him, which is only going to be more of a problem in the NBA.

Really not impressed with Patrick Patterson. Just doesn't have the size and athleticism.

Another frosh to keep an eye on: Terrico White. Shooting guard for Ole Miss, and playing out of position at the point for Ole Miss with some good passing. Had a really sick dunk in traffic over both of Kentucky's bigs, and already has some good range on his jump shot. Unfortunately he's listed at 6'5" and that's extremely generous, so not sure he's got great size for the SG position. Finished with 21 and 7 assists.

How many times have you seen Patterson play? You couldn't be more wrong on the 2nd one. He is quite athletic, he didn't really show much today but there are times that he leaves your jaw on the floor.

 

[nbrans]

How many times have you seen Patterson play? You couldn't be more wrong on the 2nd one. He is quite athletic, he didn't really show much today but there are times that he leaves your jaw on the floor.

I've seen this one, where he didn't look that impressive, Kentucky/Tennessee, where he got pushed around by Chism during the Jodie Meeks show, and Kentucky/Louisville, where I remember being a little more impressed, but still had concerns about his athleticism.

You really, really have to be a beast to make it at 6'8" in the NBA. Patterson is decently athletic and skilled, I just don't think he's athletic enough to overcome his lack of height.

 

[Aenadin]

most likely we get the BPA... if we get first then go for blake... get him to play
PF and thompson on the SF we know he can play a little bit of SF... then he can move to the 4 when blake rests and bring out Donte...

what you will have is a line up that continues to retain its size.... rebounding woes wont be a problem any more in the starting line up eh?

if we do want to get a point next year i think we should use it on the houston pick..

get ty lawson or some one else.. or some where before the trade deadline at the present we manage to get a real point. and just develop brown

bottom line best player available

 

[Gary]

Hrm.. I guess 1 post was deleted.. Shows 999 on the front page, and 1000 in here. DOH! I wanted them BOTH!

 

[VF21]

Hrm.. I guess 1 post was deleted.. Shows 999 on the front page, and 1000 in here. DOH! I wanted them BOTH!

The display on the front page refers to "replies". The number in the upper right corner of the post is the actual post number, which will always be one more than the replies. Deleted posts are not included in the replies and are not in the numbered sequence of posts.

 

[bajaden]

most likely we get the BPA... if we get first then go for blake... get him to play
PF and thompson on the SF we know he can play a little bit of SF... then he can move to the 4 when blake rests and bring out Donte...

what you will have is a line up that continues to retain its size.... rebounding woes wont be a problem any more in the starting line up eh?

if we do want to get a point next year i think we should use it on the houston pick..

get ty lawson or some one else.. or some where before the trade deadline at the present we manage to get a real point. and just develop brown

bottom line best player available

I would be more inclined to play Thompson at the center position than the SF position. I don't see drafting Griffin as a problem. Miller is going to be gone and so is Mikkie. Ditto Williams and Thomas. I believe that would leave us with just Hawes and Thompson. So having Griffin as part of a three man rotation would work just fine. Considering that Thompson played center in college and is basicly a low post player, its not much of a reach for him, especially if he puts on a few more pounds of muscle.

Now if Thabeet would just slide down to our second first round pick, then we could have the best of both worlds. If we don't draft a pt guard this time around, there's a kid that I've followed for a while named John Wall that will be around for the next draft. He reminds me a lot of Derrick Rose.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Have you checked out Derrick Favors at all? I'm liking what I've seen and read about him. He could fit our bill at the PF position. An Okafor type.

 

[Sarunas]

Watched the Duke/Wake game (aka teague/aminu watch for kings fans):
I know guys like nbrans have a better eye for the game than me, so hopefully he dvr'd it and will break the game down too. Anwyays, heres my take

Well, I think although teague had a very subpar game to his standards, he still has solidifed himself as possibly our #1 prospect. He didnt score in the quantity that he usually does, but he showed some decent playmaking ability, which has been the main thing hes lacked all season. Had a few plays where he found the open teammate through the pressure where I normally thought he would have tried to make the play himself. His defense has always been good, and I think tonight he played well on d and showed he can be a good defending guard at the next level. Dude is lightning quick, i cant overemphasize it, he gets into the paint at will, somewhat like tony parker, although tonight he didnt finish as well as he usually does (tony does this in the nba though, big difference than college, but you get the picture). He reminds me a lot of ben gordon at uconn, but with much more quickness, defensive ability and playmaking ability. At this point I think I would prefer him over griffin; griffin may turn out to be a better player, but I think the cieling is higher for teague, I think he has the tools to be a bigtime guy in the nba.


As far as Aminu goes, he played a good game, especially defensively with some nice blocks, which highlights his freakish athletic ability. It seems like he has good defensive instincts as well, as a few of his blocks he switched over to make the play. He had a few jumpers from outside, but as its been said before, he really really should stay in school another year. He had some very akward moments taking the ball to the rim, and looked pretty uncomfortable handling the ball for any reasonable amount of time. Definitely not worth the risk for us.

 

[nbrans]

Duke/Wake-

Teague is just so quick. Duke has good defenders, but it just doesn't matter. No one can stay in front of him. Seemed a little too amped up for this one early, forced some shots, and his floaters weren't falling, but settled down and was mostly effective when he had the ball, finding people and scoring (I think Dino Gaudio is crazy for not putting the ball in his hands more). Showed some pretty good passing and quick hands on defense. Since he's got such good hops he's good at getting defensive rebounds and flying out on the break. And great shooting from outside. He just measures up and bam. Had a crazy running 3 at the buzzer in the first half. Deferred rather than taking the shot that could have put the game away, and had a runner blocked near the end of regulation. He really looked like a point guard in this one rather than just a shooting guard, but not his best game.

Aminu looked a little more smooth to me than he did in the last game. He had some incredible dunks and blocks. He's just a sensational athlete, can really sky, but extremely, extremely raw and can't shoot a lick. He's seriously clumsy with the ball. Fumbled the ball horribly at a crucial moment and put Duke on the line with a dumb foul. Since he's a SF he's not going to be that effective until he learns to handle the ball and shoot effectively. But man is he an athlete.

James Johnson really changed the game with his athleticism inside. Duke's achilles heel is that their bigs suck.

Gerald Henderson is playing really well lately. Solid more than spectacular, and he's a great athlete, but yet another 6'4" shooting guard. Had a great reverse dunk for the and-one, and had a great move for the tying basket in regulation, then came back and blocked Teague's runner. Wish he were taller, but I could see him as a Maurice Evans in the NBA.

Singler's tough. I admire his hustle on the glass, but his shot really wasn't falling, and he's extremely slow.

Just a great play out of the in-bounds to win the game.

EDIT: Ha -- looks like Sarunas and I agree on everything.

 

[Kingster]

As far as Aminu goes, he played a good game, especially defensively with some nice blocks, which highlights his freakish athletic ability. It seems like he has good defensive instincts as well, as a few of his blocks he switched over to make the play. He had a few jumpers from outside, but as its been said before, he really really should stay in school another year. He had some very akward moments taking the ball to the rim, and looked pretty uncomfortable handling the ball for any reasonable amount of time. Definitely not worth the risk for us.

He could be worth the risk with the Houston pick, that's for sure.

 

[nbrans]

He could be worth the risk with the Houston pick, that's for sure.

He'd be long gone by then, assuming he declares. Someone in the top 10 would draft him for his athleticism. As crazy of an athlete as he is, I hope that's not the Kings -- I just think he's too uncoordinated to be more than a Stromile Swift/Tyrus Thomas type.

 

[=LarryLegend=]

nbrans, What did you think of Mills?

 

[bajaden]

He'd be long gone by then, assuming he declares. Someone in the top 10 would draft him for his athleticism. As crazy of an athlete as he is, I hope that's not the Kings -- I just think he's too uncoordinated to be more than a Stromile Swift/Tyrus Thomas type.

I think Aminu can be a good player, but he's definitely a couple of college years away from being someone I would want on my team. Crazy athletic ability but really lacking in skills. His ball handling is terrible, and your right, he has no shot at all. I hope he stays in school at least one more year.

Teague is starting to rise on my chart. He definitely showed some pt skills vrs Duke, which is my main concern. As far as someone comparing him to Tony Parker, I think its a good comparison. Parker wasn't lights out in his first couple of years. I remember thinking that he played out of control most of the time and that he was an inconsistant shooter. I think he turned out OK. Of course it doesn't hurt to have Duncan on your team.

 

[nbrans]

nbrans, What did you think of Mills?

The game is tonight at 10:00. I'm DVRing it and will probably watch it tomorrow.

 

[nbrans]

I think Aminu can be a good player, but he's definitely a couple of college years away from being someone I would want on my team. Crazy athletic ability but really lacking in skills. His ball handling is terrible, and your right, he has no shot at all. I hope he stays in school at least one more year.

Teague is starting to rise on my chart. He definitely showed some pt skills vrs Duke, which is my main concern. As far as someone comparing him to Tony Parker, I think its a good comparison. Parker wasn't lights out in his first couple of years. I remember thinking that he played out of control most of the time and that he was an inconsistant shooter. I think he turned out OK. Of course it doesn't hurt to have Duncan on your team.

Agreed on Aminu. What I want to see if his skills continue to develop or if he's just clumsy.

The crazy thing about Teague is that he's a really good shooter too, much better than Parker was at his age. Jump shooting Tony Parker? Yes, please.

 

[bajaden]

Agreed on Aminu. What I want to see if his skills continue to develop or if he's just clumsy.

The crazy thing about Teague is that he's a really good shooter too, much better than Parker was at his age. Jump shooting Tony Parker? Yes, please.

I agree. I was going to say that I think he's ahead of where Parker was at the same age.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I haven't really watched Teague that intensely yet, but I'm intrigued by him based off what you guys are saying. I think we need a PG who can make good decisions with the ball and run an offense, not just a guy who is looking to score and gets assists when he runs into double teams.

 

[nbrans]

I haven't really watched Teague that intensely yet, but I'm intrigued by him based off what you guys are saying. I think we need a PG who can make good decisions with the ball and run an offense, not just a guy who is looking to score and gets assists when he runs into double teams.

Well, I think it's still a bit of an open question, honestly. He mostly plays off the ball and they usually have other guys bring the ball up even though he makes more things happen when he has the ball. He's mainly supposed to score.

But against Duke, even though he had an off night shooting I think Sarunas and Bajaden and I were more encouraged that he found open men and was able to make some things happen passing. He does tend to get in tunnel vision mode a bit, but he's showing at least Tony Parker-level passing ability. Not necessarily something to write home about or extremely creative, but better than someone like Ben Gordon or Gilbert Arenas. If he can continue to develop that aspect of his game I think he'll be pretty much unstoppable, with the potential to be an elite point guard.

 

[nbrans]

Arkansas/Alabama-

Watched this suckfest so you don't have to.

Courtney Forston is fast, has quick hands, and is a pest on defense. He makes some really creative passes and has good vision. He racked up the assists and would have had more if not for a ton of blown layups. Unfortunately he's tiny and has a single brain cell, which he uses sparingly. Forces up truly insane shots and dribbles straight into people.

Michael Washington: very athletic, can really get down the floor, good size, shows a decent jump hook, some decent agility on the bloc, and an ok jump shot. He's got some long arms, which he unfortunately doesn't use to great effect on defense, where he only sometimes pays attention. I think he's a bit too raw as a junior to suggest he's going to amount to much in the NBA.

Another frosh to keep an eye on is 'Bama's JaMychal Green. Very athletic 6'9" guy. Had some athletic plays and putbacks, still pretty raw. Playing power forward and shows some decent moves in the post.

Rotnei Clarke was on fire. Who? Yeah.

 

[nbrans]

UCLA/Cal-

Jrue Holiday - Strong defense as always, but again, he sometimes just falls asleep and lets guys right by him. Christopher blew by him easily one time for the hoop. Otherwise the defense was really strong. Hesitated when he shot a three and missed it..... and then didn't shoot the rest of the half. His passing was really, really good and had a great alley-oop to Shipp. Led a break and again, ballhandling looked shaky but he got fouled. He penetrated off the dribble, but lost the ball and turned it over. Another time kind of backed his guy down and hit a half hook. Finally, finally had a nice play dribbling, had a behind the back and went in for the dunk. Overall though... just not much. I'm really starting to reach the conclusion that Holiday is a very good passing 6'3" shooting guard. Really creative passer, sees the floor, etc. Just looks a bit shaky handling the ball and can't consistently penetrate yet. Probably the best game I've seen him play overall, and finished with 13/5/4. He showed some flashes tonight, but.... Stay in school, Jrue.

Darren Collison - Much more active than I've seen him recently, and very good defense -- he plays a lot better at home. Good passing and shooting early and creating off the dribble. Showed his trademark finishing problems early, blowing two layups, but then redeemed himself with some tough ones as the game went on. Had an awesome play in the first half where he turned the ball over handing it off to Roll, then showed crazy quickness to run back and pick the Cal guard's pocket and got the ball back like it was nothing. He also really excels at getting a shot or assist as the shot clock is winding down. Almost always seems to come up with something.

 

[asakkings]

nbrans would do you see as holiday's potential, do you think he can bulild ball handling to become a PG in the NBA.

 

[nbrans]

nbrans would do you see as holiday's potential, do you think he can bulild ball handling to become a PG in the NBA.

I honestly don't know one way or the other. He shows flashes, but nothing consistent. I would be really uncomfortable drafting him at this point in the season because I don't think he's shown enough yet. People compare him to Westbrook, but having watched plenty of both players in the last two years, Westbrook was much, much farther along (not to mention he was a sophomore). Holiday could still be a really special player. His passing is awesome for a freshman, he's unselfish, and he has great defensive intensity. But I don't think you can draft him to play the point when he hasn't shown hardly any dribbling/penetrating ability at all. He may just be out of position, it may all be there and he's not showing it, he may just need more time at the point to develop it, but it all just translates to one thing to me: he needs to stay in school.

 

[nbrans]

St. Mary's/Gonzaga-

Mills is quick, but man, he's short. Listed at 5'11", and I'd say it's more like 5'10". Pargo posted him up and made him look puny. He really seemed to be bothered early by Gonzaga's length and athleticism. Solution: start bombing threes like a madman. Which worked. But everything else was ugly and had quite a few shots blocked, then jammed his hand toward the end of half and that was that. He was done. After only watching him one half of basketball.... with the caveat that I only watched him play one half, long term I worry a bit about him as a prospect. He's not really able to score inside because he's short and not an explosive leaper, so his game is going to need to be outside shooting and penetration/dishing. But tonight's longbombing notwithstanding, he's not really that consistent a shooter, and he didn't seem to be a particularly creative passer. His future is going to depend his ability to become a consistent outside shooter. Certainly tonight he looks like he has that ability, but I think it's a bit of a risk. I like him as a late first rounder simply because of his quickness and potential, but don't like him more than Collison or Jonny Flynn.

Austin Daye - nice blocks early, but he's a very weak man defender. Shows some really good ballhandling for a 6'10" SF. I never really got the sense that Gonzaga is utilizing him properly. He makes things happen when he gets the ball, but Bouldin and Pargo pound the ball and Daye is kind of an afterthought. Wish he were a little quicker and had more consistent skills to play the SF, but he's an intriguing player.

Pargo - really quick, and bigger than Mills. If only he could shoot.