And how will Bonds spin this?

[kupman]

If you're going to participate in a thread, one would think you'd show enough respect for all who have posted in it to at least read it.

Sorry, but the "give the man peace" stuff is just wrong. Give him peace? Bonds could have stopped this a long time ago had he simply NOT LIED repeatedly and ad nauseum.

This isn't about Babe Ruth, by the way. Never has been. People who have to bring him up in regards to this is just trying to change the subject to avoid talking about the real issue.

Sory I did not read the entire 6 pages of comments on this thread.....I do have other things going on in my life.

Yes, it is time to give this man peace. He has had way more than his share of extremely harsh judgement. I think that he probably juiced, but there is a slim chance that he is innocent and I shudder to think that an innocent man would receive this kind of treatment. Plus, why not spend time tearing apart all the other liars in MLB. PLease start with Selig.....he is the devil.....he is the one that has destroyed the game - not Bonds; he and the rest were playing within the rules if he indeed used.

...and it is partially about the Babe...he is seen a mythological figure and people cannot stand the thought of Bonds breaking his "sacred" HR mark. Again I ask the rhetorical question.....would the Babe have used?.....you can form your own answers.

 

[thesanityannex]

Bonds is done in my eyes. Even if he breaks the record, there will be a mental asterick next to his name in most peoples eyes. If he does break the record, no one should celebrate it; not the fans, not the league, not the sponsors (Coca-Cola already dropped out).

 

[kupman]

Bonds is done in my eyes. Even if he breaks the record, there will be a mental asterick next to his name in most peoples eyes. If he does break the record, no one should celebrate it; not the fans, not the league, not the sponsors (Coca-Cola already dropped out).

I love all the judgement.....did they find a positive urine test on Bonds somewhere that I did not hear about?.....if they did, just remember he did not break the rules.....

how many Olympic athletes would use if it was not against the rules?......NFL players.......cyclists....NHL....should I go on?

 

[OHSacFan]

Granted, random drug testing for steroids wasn't really implemented until 2002, which basically means that baseball was turning a blind eye to the problem, if Bonds has used steroids, forget breaking the rules - he's been breaking the law. I'm not going to sit here and say he has or hasn't, that's my own personal opinion best left out at this point.

Anabolic-androgenic steroids are banned substances according to the federal government (Schedule III of the U.S. Code of controlled substances). They are a big no-no. Period.

Like I said in an earlier post, Bonds is only a small part of this very large problem, but he has gotten so much media attention because of his actions toward the media and the public.

 

[Bricklayer]

Like I said in an earlier post, Bonds is only a small part of this very large problem, but he has gotten so much media attention because of his actions toward the media and the public.

Also because of the simple fact that he is going to own a stack fo the game's most cherished/highest proifile records. That is a huge problem -- stats and the sense of history are one of the strong points of baseball, and to have a guy who blatantly cheated not only distrort those records but be celebrated as the greatest this or the greatest that is really ugly for baseball. Thesanity is right -- baseball's greatest record is going to have a giant asterisk next to it. That's terrible.

 

[kupman]

Also because of the simple fact that he is going to own a stack fo the game's most cherished/highest proifile records. That is a huge problem -- stats and the sense of history are one of the strong points of baseball, and to have a guy who blatantly cheated not only distrort those records but be celebrated as the greatest this or the greatest that is really ugly for baseball. Thesanity is right -- baseball's greatest record is going to have a giant asterisk next to it. That's terrible.

It is not cheating if it is not against the rules.....don't get mad at Bonds for making his game as strong as he could within the rules...get mad at Selig....he is the idiot

 

[OHSacFan]

Also because of the simple fact that he is going to own a stack fo the game's most cherished/highest proifile records. That is a huge problem -- stats and the sense of history are one of the strong points of baseball, and to have a guy who blatantly cheated not only distrort those records but be celebrated as the greatest this or the greatest that is really ugly for baseball. Thesanity is right -- baseball's greatest record is going to have a giant asterisk next to it. That's terrible.

You're right, Brick. And that's just one more thing that's going to give this sport yet another black eye.

 

[thesanityannex]

I love all the judgement.....did they find a positive urine test on Bonds somewhere that I did not hear about?.....if they did, just remember he did not break the rules.....

He broke federal rules. Those hold a little more weight than MLB rules. He may not have broken MLB rules, since they turned a blind eye, but he did cheat.

Caminiti- sudden jump in numbers, NL MVP, steroid user.

McGwire- 25+ more homeruns than previous seasons, steroid user.

Sosa- see McGwire.

Giambi- admitted steroid user.

Palemeiro- lied and had to go back on what he said. Steroid user.

Nevin- MVP numbers during steroid era, steroids stop, Nevin stops putting up numbers. And he is also a family friend who I've spoken with about the use of steroids throughout the league.

Bonds- old man stronger than ever before, putting up better numbers than ever before, and the changes to his body were definitely not exclusively from hitting the weights hard. Steroid user.

In my eyes, they all cheated. And there are many more who did that will probably never admit it, but they aren't chasing the most prized record, so its not surprising they aren't talked about as much as Bonds. This whole "steroid era" will have an asterick next to it.

Its only a matter of time before Bonds cracks and spills everything, or at least one would assume.

Can't wait for opening day to show Bonds my new shirt........maybe I can even get an autograph.

 

[OHSacFan]

He broke federal rules. Those hold a little more weight than MLB rules. He may not have broken MLB rules, since they turned a blind eye, but he did cheat.

Thank you, sanity, for reiterating my point. I'm glad someone else sees that what Bonds is doing is illegal. I'm liking that shirt. Any chance you can have one sent to Ohio?

 

[thesanityannex]

. I'm liking that shirt. Any chance you can have one sent to Ohio?

Here is the link to order......http://www.sportscrack.com/tees_756.html

 

[Bricklayer]

It is not cheating if it is not against the rules.....don't get mad at Bonds for making his game as strong as he could within the rules...get mad at Selig....he is the idiot

That's a colossally weak argument. Anybody with any moral or ethical sensibilities at all is able to determine all kinds of places where you can "cheat" without somebody having written an explicit rule about it.

And BTW, the blame would land more on the insanely destructive MLB Players Union than the owners for no anti-drug plan.

 

[VF21]

He broke federal rules. Those hold a little more weight than MLB rules. He may not have broken MLB rules, since they turned a blind eye, but he did cheat.

Caminiti- sudden jump in numbers, NL MVP, steroid user.

McGwire- 25+ more homeruns than previous seasons, steroid user.

Sosa- see McGwire.

Giambi- admitted steroid user.

Palemeiro- lied and had to go back on what he said. Steroid user.

Nevin- MVP numbers during steroid era, steroids stop, Nevin stops putting up numbers. And he is also a family friend who I've spoken with about the use of steroids throughout the league.

Bonds- old man stronger than ever before, putting up better numbers than ever before, and the changes to his body were definitely not exclusively from hitting the weights hard. Steroid user.

In my eyes, they all cheated. And there are many more who did that will probably never admit it, but they aren't chasing the most prized record, so its not surprising they aren't talked about as much as Bonds. This whole "steroid era" will have an asterick next to it.

Its only a matter of time before Bonds cracks and spills everything, or at least one would assume.

Can't wait for opening day to show Bonds my new shirt........maybe I can even get an autograph.

tsa - You and I have disagreed on a lot of things. On this post, however, we are in complete and total agreement. Excellent comments IMHO.

 

[kupman]

I will try and let this rest after this post. It is obvious that I have a different opinion than most on this board and the same is true of the general public. I do feel strongly about what is going on here though. I fault mostly Selig and feel the day that he steps aside will be one of the best days MLB has seen. I also fault the union and the owners. While I do not find a player using steriods to be commendable, I do find it to be unstandable. It is the psychology of the professional athlete and serious amatuer athlete to do just about whatever it takes to get the edge. This is especially true if it is within the confines of "the rules." I contend that if the IOC permitted the juice at least 95% of olympic athletes would be dirty - that is conservative and federal laws woud be seen as almost irrelevant in the eyes of the athletes.

The Bonds issue is mostly about the hatred of a man that has made many mistakes. Those that hate him are unable to take him to the town square and flog him, so they are doing the next best thing. He is the perfect scapecoat for those that hate. There is a much bigger problem here than a great athlete who mistreated the public and the media and is now being punished for it. Please take your focus off of Bonds and place it upon those that passively encouraged the tainting of the sport.

 

[chelle]

Please take your focus off of Bonds and place it upon those that passively encouraged the tainting of the sport.

I can agree with this. I think the focus should be equally divided on the players AND others involved.

 

[OHSacFan]

It's not a matter of hatred for Bonds because I personally admire his accomplishments up until he "mysteriously" built his body up as quickly as he did (i.e. Pirates Barry as opposed to Giants Barry).

The focus on Bonds comes from the fact that he has become the poster child for supposed steroid use. He's the easiest person to point fingers at because of his presence in the media.

And there's no way a professional athlete using steroids should be seen as understandable. Being prescribed steroids as treatment to a severe allergic reaction is understandable - abusing them to give yourself an "edge" is not. It's illegal.

I do, however, agree that until Bud Selig has gone the way of the Dodo, this problem will persist despite pressure from the federal government, the media, and most importantly, the fans. I also believe that baseball needs to come down hard on steroid users. A zero tolerance policy would begin to get the point across.

 

[kupman]

I also believe that baseball needs to come down hard on steroid users. A zero tolerance policy would begin to get the point across.


Sorry to have to post again. But I really agree with the above statement. It should have been done 20 years ago and that is not an exageration.

 

[VF21]

kupman - First, I do not "hate" Barry Bonds. I do not know him. What I dislike intensely is the public persona he has CHOSEN to assume. I agree wholeheartedly with everything OHSacFan has posted. And I'll take it just a bit further...

Yes, MLB and Bud Selig erred greatly in trying to sweep all this under the carpet. But that doesn't absolve Barry Bonds of his complicity in the whole matter...

People who are so quick to step to Bonds' defense overlook the obvious - if what Bonds was doing wasn't "illegal," why did he and the others who took the steroids go to such great lengths to hide it? Bonds isn't continuing to deny the obvious because he's innocent. He's continuing to try and hide the truth because he's going after one of the most revered records in all baseball. And that is just wrong...

I contend that if the IOC permitted the juice at least 95% of olympic athletes would be dirty - that is conservative and federal laws woud be seen as almost irrelevant in the eyes of the athletes.

This statement is totally irrelevant. The IOC DOESN'T permit the juice so any arbitrary percentage that you personally feel should be assigned to athletes who would - in your opinion - use the juice if it was allowed makes no difference whatsoever.

I have a major problem with those who firmly believe it's all about the competition regardless of the cost. If that's truly what the majority of athletes believe then it's a sorry day for everyone who believes in the honor of competition and NOT cheating. That's a pretty sad commentary on our times and our values (or lack thereof) if that is, in fact, true...

 

[kupman]

The IOC statement is not irrelevant. The point is that the IOC has done a good job at protecting the athletes from feeling compelled to use. MLB did nothing to protect it athletes. Also, the "95%" is not as arbitrary as you might think.

I do not agree with what Bonds has done (presuming he used), but I do understand why he and many others felt compelled to do so. The people throwing the stones may be surprised to see what decision they would have made if they were in a similar situation.

 

[Bricklayer]

I do not agree with what Bonds has done (presuming he used), but I do understand why he and many others felt compelled to do so. The people throwing the stones may be surprised to see what decision they would have made if they were in a similar situation.

Oh yes. I am quite sure that as I sat there in my $10 million mansion wrapping up my HOF baseball career I would have felt irresistibly compelled to wake up one morning and take a giant dump over the sport which had provided me with the extravagant lifestyle that I was living. After all, what other POSSIBLE route could I decide to take except to lie, cheat and trash the record book to satisfy my overwhelming egomania?

 

[VF21]

The IOC statement is not irrelevant. The point is that the IOC has done a good job at protecting the athletes from feeling compelled to use. MLB did nothing to protect it athletes. Also, the "95%" is not as arbitrary as you might think.

Yes, it is an arbitrary number. You're playing what-if and assigning YOUR judgements, values and standards to Olympic athletes. I personally have known three athletes lucky enough to participate in various Olympics. I can honestly say with a pretty high degree of confidence that NONE of them would have cheated to win. NONE. And I suspect there are more who still love the competition and the sport and respect themselves enough to compete honestly.

I do not agree with what Bonds has done (presuming he used), but I do understand why he and many others felt compelled to do so. The people throwing the stones may be surprised to see what decision they would have made if they were in a similar situation.

It appears you would cheat. That's something for you and your conscience to wrestle with. I would not. It's not even open to interpretation or debate.

 

[kupman]

Oh yes. I am quite sure that as I sat there in my $10 million mansion wrapping up my HOF baseball career I would have felt irresistibly compelled to wake up one morning and take a giant dump over the sport which had provided me with the extravagant lifestyle that I was living. After all, what other POSSIBLE route could I decide to take except to lie, cheat and trash the record book to satisfy my overwhelming egomania?

Are you referring to Mark McGuire?.......or Sammy Sosa?.....or Jason Giambi?....Palmero?....I guess it does not really matter, they are just a bunch scumbags

 

[kupman]

It appears you would cheat. That's something for you and your conscience to wrestle with. I would not. It's not even open to interpretation or debate.[/QUOTE]

Mark MaGuire is a very good and decent man, as is Sammy Sosa and many others. Presuming that they used, I guess just about anybody could end-up using in a simlar situation. So maybe your right, if placed in a similar situation I may choose to use as well. I don't know....I have never been in that place.

 

[VF21]

Mark MaGuire is a very good and decent man, as is Sammy Sosa and many others. Presuming that they used, I guess just about anybody could end-up using in a simlar situation. So maybe your right, if placed in a similar situation I may choose to use as well. I don't know....I have never been in that place.

See, that's where you and I differ in our opinions. I think it's pretty clear by performance alone that a vast majority of MLB players DIDN'T use steroids. What compelled people like Giambi, Sosa, McGwire and others to partake may have been the same kind of addictive personality and/or genetic makeup that allows some to become alcoholics or gambling addicts much easier than others. It could have been a basic lack of self-confidence, it could have been a myriad of things.

Where I strenuously object is your assumption that more people than not would succumb to the same temptation.

There is not a doubt in my mind that I would NOT use steroids to artificially enhance my performance. It's not something I would be able to justify to myself. And I don't have to actually be placed in a situation to realize it.

 

[thesanityannex]

tsa - You and I have disagreed on a lot of things. On this post, however, we are in complete and total agreement. Excellent comments IMHO.

We will always agree on two things, our dislike for Bonds and the Lakers.

 

[thesanityannex]

While I do not find a player using steriods to be commendable, I do find it to be understandable. It is the psychology of the professional athlete and serious amatuer athlete to do just about whatever it takes to get the edge. This is especially true if it is within the confines of "the rules."

Not so sure about this.

Since it was "within the confines of the rules" before 2002, the entire league before 2002 must have been using steroids right? Surely no one in the league has a sense of morality, they will do whatever it takes to get the edge.

 

[thesanityannex]

I do not agree with what Bonds has done (presuming he used), but I do understand why he and many others felt compelled to do so. The people throwing the stones may be surprised to see what decision they would have made if they were in a similar situation.

Have I "thrown stones" at Bonds, sure. But, I'm in that similar situation to a certain extent as well. I play golf at the college level in a highly competitive division. The State Championships are coming up and I could use some extra distance. I'm fairly long off the tee, but there are others that are far superior to me in driving distance. I could take steroids, and within a short period of time, be out driving these same people with ease. Instead of having a 7 iron in my hands, I could have a sandwedge. There is no testing in my division, so what is there to stop me from taking steroids?.........................My respect for competition.

 

[VF21]

Have I "thrown stones" at Bonds, sure. But, I'm in that similar situation to a certain extent as well. I play golf at the college level in a highly competitive division. The State Championships are coming up and I could use some extra distance. I'm fairly long off the tee, but there are others that are far superior to me in driving distance. I could take steroids, and within a short period of time, be out driving these same people with ease. Instead of having a 7 iron in my hands, I could have a sandwedge. There is no testing in my division, so what is there to stop me from taking steroids?.........................My respect for competition.

And those 21 words pretty much sum it all up...

Nice post.

 

[Venom]

Old man stronger than ever before, putting up better numbers than ever before, and the changes to his body were definitely not exclusively from hitting the weights hard. Steroid user.

Roger Clemens says hi. . .

 

[kupman]

See, that's where you and I differ in our opinions. I think it's pretty clear by performance alone that a vast majority of MLB players DIDN'T use steroids. What compelled people like Giambi, Sosa, McGwire and others to partake may have been the same kind of addictive personality and/or genetic makeup that allows some to become alcoholics or gambling addicts much easier than others. It could have been a basic lack of self-confidence, it could have been a myriad of things.

Where I strenuously object is your assumption that more people than not would succumb to the same temptation.

There is not a doubt in my mind that I would NOT use steroids to artificially enhance my performance. It's not something I would be able to justify to myself. And I don't have to actually be placed in a situation to realize it.

Clear by performance alone? I am guessing that you would not have thought Alex Sanchez would be the first to test positive. He did not really seem like a steroid guy did he? You would probably be very surprised to see others on the "steroid list" if the truth was ever known.

The stars like Giambi, Sosa and others do not suffer from some kind-of addictive personality or genetic make-up that made them use. They were simply placed in a powerful sitiuation that compelled them to make these choices. How many guys that you have never heard of used because they were just trying to make it in the league and prevent themselves from having to go back and bag groceries?

This is basic social psychology. Situational factors play a much stronger role in determining human behavior than things such as character and morality. People behave in ways that they would have never dreamed when placed under the right or wrong circumstances. For some interesting reading you could check into the old Stanley Milgram ("Only in action can you fully realize the forces operative in social behavior,") and Philip Zimbardo writings.

 

[thesanityannex]

This is basic social psychology. Situational factors play a much stronger role in determining human behavior than things such as character and morality. People behave in ways that they would have never dreamed when placed under the right or wrong circumstances. For some interesting reading you could check into the old Stanley Milgram ("Only in action can you fully realize the forces operative in social behavior,") and Philip Zimbardo writings.

Wrong. If this was true, every professional athlete would be on steroids. Each athlete is in a pressured situation to do their best. These statements may be true for a select few, but your statements include the whole league.