And how will Bonds spin this?

kupman said:
This is basic social psychology. Situational factors play a much stronger role in determining human behavior than things such as character and morality. People behave in ways that they would have never dreamed when placed under the right or wrong circumstances. For some interesting reading you could check into the old Stanley Milgram ("Only in action can you fully realize the forces operative in social behavior,") and Philip Zimbardo writings.
Nature versus nurture, an ongoing psychological debate that's as old as "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?"

Not everyone falls prey to situational factors because of the strong character and moral standards that they have been instilled with. But this, too, is a debatable topic. Especially for someone with a background in psychology. ;)
 
VF21 said:
Yes, it is an arbitrary number. You're playing what-if and assigning YOUR judgements, values and standards to Olympic athletes.
VF21 said:
It is admittedly difficult to predict how many Olympic athletes would use steroids if it were “fair play” as it has been in MLB until recently. However, I threw out the 95% from the Dr. Bob Goldman surveys he has conducted and replicated many times. The number I threw out was not based upon my own opinions and judgements.

For example, he found the following in a survey from a 1995 poll of 198 sprinters, swimmers, powerlifters and other assorted athletes, most of them U.S. Olympians of aspiring Olympians:
Scenario I: You Are offered a banned performance-enhancing substance, with two guarantees: 1) You will not be caught. 2) You will win. Would you take the substance?

One hundred and ninety-five athletes said yes; three said no.

Scenario II: You are offered a banned performance-enhancing substance that comes with two guarantees: 1) You will not be caught. 2) You will win every competition you enter for the next five years, and then you will die from the side effects of the substance. Would you take it?

More than half the athletes said yes.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
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You're using data from a poll taken in 1995? Oh, please...

Considering what has happened in the world of sports since that survey was taken, you cannot attach any kind of significance to data that old. Well, you can - which you obviously have - but it's not indicative of today's feelings, standards, etc.

And, once again, this isn't about any of that stuff. It's about Barry Bonds. He cheated; he lied about it; he put himself above the sport that has given him everything in life he could possibly have asked for AND he's probably going to eclipse the most revered record in the sport at least partially because of his actions.

I still say shame on him.
 
VF21 said:
You're using data from a poll taken in 1995? Oh, please...

Considering what has happened in the world of sports since that survey was taken, you cannot attach any kind of significance to data that old. Well, you can - which you obviously have - but it's not indicative of today's feelings, standards, etc.

And, once again, this isn't about any of that stuff. It's about Barry Bonds. He cheated; he lied about it; he put himself above the sport that has given him everything in life he could possibly have asked for AND he's probably going to eclipse the most revered record in the sport at least partially because of his actions.

I still say shame on him.
Bob Goldman has done that survey every two years since about 1982 or 1983 and has obtained essentially the same results each time. Is there something that has changed significantly in sports since 1995?

Again, this is completely relevant to the Bonds issue. If you can't see the connection I am really wasting my time.
 
I don't see the connection? Are you saying Bonds was justified in cheating? It sounds like your trying to justify it.

This thread/topic is labled " how will Bonds spin this" Not how the olympic runners cheat. Its not "divert all attention away from Bonds and blame everyone else."

Why are you sticking up for this guy?

Was bonds the only cheater in MLB? HELL NO and if we actually had a real investigation instead of this Selig media stunt then we would know and maybe be able to put it behind us. I also want real testing, not some MLB testing program.

Did this inflate his career numbers? Yes

Did his steroid use prolong his career with less injuries? Yes (obviously)


Is baseball clean now? I have my doubts

cheat in poker or a friendly game of monopoly and your liable to get shot. Cheat in MLB and every other sport and its all good. They were just doing it to make money. AKA commiting a crime. Honestly whats the difference between cheating in MLB by taking roids(aka against the law) or smoking some... and getting caught? The answer to it all is getting caught is the only difference.

Its still against the law, MLB rules are not above FEDERAL LAW. What more evidence do you need that Barry took them? You need a video of him stabn a needle in his r-end?

Are others guilty of this? OH ya and I for one would like to see Mighty Mac be put out on the table. Why? Well I would say it really upsets/p... me off that a game I absolutely loved turned into a game that I honestly question any good player. I question the integrity of the entire game and that is MLB's worst nightmare is fans like me.

Sure I will 1000% agree if you don't have skills and take something you are not going to all the sudden be good. However if you have the skills (barry and the others clearly did) then you will have less injuires, be stronger, quicker and in the end have an unfair advantage.

Another take on this is how many pitchers were doing it?Allstar type pitchers? I think this would benifit them in recovery time so maybe it evens it all out? I am not sure.

I try to look at all sides but IMO Barry should not be allowed to break one of the most cherished records of all sports.
 
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I am not justifying it, nor do I agree with the actions. However, I understand why a MLB player would choose to use until recently. I am sticking-up for Bonds because he is the center of attention on this deal when lord only knows how many players used because the sport failed to police itself for the sake of the fans and players.

What more evidence do I need that Barry took them in the first place? a positive urine test or an admission of guilt. If either one of those happens I will still understand his actions for the reasons I have already cited.

It is a bit ironic to me that everybody is going crazy because "HE CHEATED! HE CHEATED!" How is it cheating when it is not against the rules? It really just flies against on your own personal morals - it was not cheating unless he did it after the juice was prohibited. The ironic part to me is that someone like Gaylord Perry walks into the hall of fame with no questions asked when his career was based upon admitted cheating.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
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kupman said:
Bob Goldman has done that survey every two years since about 1982 or 1983 and has obtained essentially the same results each time. Is there something that has changed significantly in sports since 1995?

Again, this is completely relevant to the Bonds issue. If you can't see the connection I am really wasting my time.
Has something significant in sports happened since 1995? Oh gee...I don't know. Perhaps the whole bleeping steroid SCANDAL??? Maybe you didn't hear about it, especially if you've just spent your time figuring out how to deify Barry Bonds...

As far as me not seeing the tenuous connection you're trying to make between Barry Bonds and Olympic athletes, I'm so sorry. I really apologize for being so dumb that I cannot follow your impeccable logic. Yes, unfortunately for you, you've wasted your time...

Excuse me now. I have some knitting to get back to if I can just remember whether it's knit one, purl two or the other way around...

What is the most pathetic is that you continue to try and sully the names of other athletes in an attempt to rationalize and/or justify what Barry Bonds did. You're not gonna see a positive urine test and he's not gonna confess, so continue to believe in the fairy tale he's created. Yes, for you, I"m sure the emperor's new clothes are beautiful, well-tailored and spectacular to see...

Barry Bonds' entire career has been one of controversy, denial, super-ego gone mad and a total disregard for the fans and the game that got him where he is today. The most pathetic thing about this whole episode is that some people will continue to accept whatever ridiculous story he tells - or even a non-story - so that they can continue to think he's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

HE CHEATED. He used artificial means to give himself an edge that other players did not use. Simply because the rules hadn't been changed to be specific doesn't change the circumstances. If he and the others who used steroids didn't think they were doing anything wrong, why did they hide the use?

There isn't a rule in the NBA against using flubber. If someone puts flubber they have somehow acquired onto their shoes and it enables them to jump higher, get more rebounds, etc. is it cheating? OF COURSE IT'S CHEATING!!!
 
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VF21 said:
Has something significant in sports happened since 1995? Oh gee...I don't know. Perhaps the whole bleeping steroid SCANDAL??? Maybe you didn't hear about it, especially if you've just spent your time figuring out how to deify Barry Bonds...

As far as me not seeing the tenuous connection you're trying to make between Barry Bonds and Olympic athletes, I'm so sorry. I really apologize for being so dumb that I cannot follow your impeccable logic. Yes, unfortunately for you, you've wasted your time...

Excuse me now. I have some knitting to get back to if I can just remember whether it's knit one, purl two or the other way around...

What is the most pathetic is that you continue to try and sully the names of other athletes in an attempt to rationalize and/or justify what Barry Bonds did. You're not gonna see a positive urine test and he's not gonna confess, so continue to believe in the fairy tale he's created. Yes, for you, I"m sure the emperor's new clothes are beautiful, well-tailored and spectacular to see...
The steroid scandal started long before 1995. I never attempted to deify Bonds. I did not make-up arbitrary percentages...etc. I am done with this. I did not intend to insult anyone. I apologize.
 
T

thesanityannex

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kupman said:
It is a bit ironic to me that everybody is going crazy because "HE CHEATED! HE CHEATED!" How is it cheating when it is not against the rules?
*cough* *cough* FEDERAL LAW *cough* *cough*












Federal Law>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MLB Rules
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
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kupman said:
The steroid scandal started long before 1995. I never attempted to deify Bonds. I did not make-up arbitrary percentages...etc. I am done with this. I did not intend to insult anyone. I apologize.
I, too, offer an apology. I should have gotten out of this thread a long time ago... I'm sorry for railing against you when you're merely the messenger of one side of the argument.

Peace.
 
Kup I don't think we are insulted or offended by your point of view. I have actually heard a lot of people with the same view as you. Including a lot of the KNBR hosts. I would like to get more into the reason why people have that view because I have a hard time understanding it.

I think one of our fundamental differences is that federal law IMO makes it against the rules. In your stance its not against MLB rules but it is against the law. So in reality this should be dealt with by the Feds not MLB.

Your point about Perry was a good one. I have to agree on that, not like Sosa got this treatment with his "PRACTICE BAT" WOW he is a cheater x2 roids and cork.

I said before that this Barry thing is about 1 thing. The record he is about to break.

I think in the long run its just numbers, MLB is not Americas favorite sport anymore and its just business. Nothing more nothing less all about making the dollar and in a way I guess you cannot blame someone, well you can but if I was in that situation... I would probably do it.

Either way I babble on... this is not an issue that is easy for either side. Mind you my opinion is from a former MLB fan, a Giants fan and a Barry fan.
 
VF21 said:
There isn't a rule in the NBA against using flubber. If someone puts flubber they have somehow acquired onto their shoes and it enables them to jump higher, get more rebounds, etc. is it cheating? OF COURSE IT'S CHEATING!!!
:p Thanks for the laugh VF!!
 
T

thesanityannex

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Sounds like Bonds may now possibly charged with perjury. A second case is now going to the Grand Jury. Not looking too good for him at this moment.
 
T

thesanityannex

Guest
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/04/13/MNGOBI92B15.DTL



The personal surgeon for Barry Bonds has been subpoenaed to testify before a federal grand jury that is investigating whether the Giants' outfielder committed perjury in 2003 when he denied under oath that he had ever taken steroids, The Chronicle has learned.

Dr. Arthur Ting, the physician who treated Bonds for the knee injury that sidelined him for most of the 2005 season, has been subpoenaed to appear before the grand jury at the U.S. District courthouse in San Francisco later this month, according to two sources familiar with the investigation.

The sources asked not to be quoted by name because of the sensitivity of the grand jury probe.

Reached by phone, Ting referred a reporter to his lawyer, Daniel Alberti, who could not be reached. The Giants' organization declined to comment. Bonds was not available for comment, and his attorney, Michael Rains, said he was "not prepared to respond to that information."

The sources described the grand jury's probe as an offshoot of the federal steroids case involving the Burlingame-based Bay Area Laboratory Cooperative, or BALCO, a nutritional supplements concern.

Four men, including Bonds' personal trainer, Greg Anderson, pleaded guilty to steroid-distribution charges last year as part of what prosecutors said was an international conspiracy to corrupt sports by providing undetectable steroids to elite athletes. The drugs were distributed by BALCO and Anderson.

In the early stages of the investigation, a grand jury subpoenaed at least 30 elite athletes who had been customers of BALCO -- Bonds among them.

In December 2003, as previously reported in The Chronicle, Bonds told the BALCO grand jury that he had never used steroids.

But in his testimony, he acknowledged that his trainer had supplied him with flax seed oil and arthritis balm -- substances that matched the description of "the clear" and "the cream," two undetectable performance-enhancing drugs distributed by BALCO.

The sources said federal investigators believed Bonds lied under oath in part because documents seized in government raids on BALCO and on his trainer's home included doping calendars that appeared to reflect Bonds' drug use.

In March 2005, a former girlfriend of Bonds', Kimberly Bell, also told the grand jury that Bonds had admitted to her that he had used steroids beginning in 1999, the Chronicle has previously reported.

Since then, the government has continued to question witnesses regarding Bonds and steroids in its ongoing investigation -- including looking into whether he testified truthfully -- and a grand jury began taking testimony last month, two sources said.

Bonds' lawyer, Rains, said that last month he contacted the U.S. Attorney's Office in San Francisco to find out if it had completed any investigation involving Bonds.

"I got the typical federal answer, 'We're not going to say one way or another,'" Rains said.

Rains has maintained throughout the investigation that the government was out to get Bonds. "It's always been the U.S. versus Bonds, and they're always just gunning for the big guy," the lawyer said in March of last year.

Ting is of interest to investigators because he has visited BALCO with Bonds, the sources said. In September 2003, a BALCO employee told federal investigators that around that time Ting had accompanied Bonds to the lab and drawn his blood for testing.

The doctor has been Bonds' personal surgeon for much of the outfielder's San Francisco career. In 1999, when Bonds suffered a serious elbow injury, Ting operated to repair the damage. Last year, Ting performed three operations on Bonds' ailing knee -- two to repair torn cartilage and a third to combat an infection that had developed after the surgery. Bonds didn't play his first game of the 2005 season until September.

Ting's patients include many elite athletes, and he is among the best-known orthopedists in the region. But public records show he has twice been disciplined by the state Medical Board.

In 1996, Ting was put on probation after he allegedly allowed a medical technician to diagnose injuries and write prescriptions.

In 2004, the medical board again put Ting on probation, this time after he was accused of prescribing drugs to friends while keeping inadequate records. Ting acknowledged he was "negligent in his supervision of subordinates" but denied wrongdoing.

The probe of Bonds is the latest twist in a case that has grabbed international headlines, mostly because of BALCO's celebrity clientele.

In a statement to federal agents at the time they raided his laboratory in September 2003, BALCO founder Victor Conte identified 27 stars of baseball, football and Olympic track and field to whom he said he was providing designer steroids. Some of the drugs were created to be undetectable on conventional steroid tests.

Among the athletes Conte named were New York Yankees Jason Giambi and Gary Sheffield, track and field superstar Marion Jones, and Bonds. Conte later renounced the statement, but his top assistant at BALCO, James Valente, also gave a statement to federal investigators in which he said Bonds and Giambi had been provided BALCO drugs through Bonds' personal trainer, Anderson.

Conte, Valente, Anderson and veteran track coach Remi Korchemny were indicted on steroid conspiracy charges in 2004. But steroid dealing carried relatively light penalties under federal law, and the cases were settled with plea bargains last year. Conte served four months in federal prison and Anderson served three months. They are now on house arrest. Valente and Korchemny were put on probation.

But investigators continued to pursue the case, and in November, an Illinois chemist, Patrick Arnold, was indicted on steroid charges for allegedly creating one of the undetectable steroids that BALCO had distributed. After Arnold's indictments, the sources said, the investigators continued an inquiry into the truth of Bonds' 2003 grand jury testimony.

The Giants are scheduled to begin a three-game series in Los Angeles beginning today. The Dodgers and Major League Baseball are expected to provide heightened security for Bonds, who was taunted repeatedly during the team's season-opening series in San Diego.

A Giants spokesman said the extra security for Bonds was neither unexpected nor out of the ordinary
 
Perjury is one of those charges that YOU never want to be charged with. It seems like a charge they try and toss out when they cannot make the others stick. Similar in a way to the IRS going after one if they cannot make the criminal side stick.

I am not down playing the seriousness of perjury, it's one of those things that people involved in large cases always seem to get nailed on... that or tax fraud.
 

VF21

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SME
Lying under oath is what got Chris Webber in so much trouble. This is now gonna get really ugly.

If Bonds, testifying with immunity under the condition that he tell the truth, the whole truth, etc. lied, then they will make an example of him that will far exceed anything we've seen before.
 
T

thesanityannex

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This could help the MLB separate themselves from Bonds if charged. His record needn't be celebrated by the league.