And how will Bonds spin this?

#61
I love Kingsfans.com!!!

Most of these comments have provoked much thought. This thread has been an enjoyable, even an enlightening read.

Thank you to all who have thoughtfully posted, you made my afternoon.

BTW-Its unfortunate that these steriods scandles are tainting a great sport. Makes Yoda angry.
 

SLAB

Hall of Famer
#62
First off, I'll say this...The second Barry Bonds is 100% caught, I will be the first at the front of the line saying "I was wrong." I will also be at the front of the line saying most of Barry's records are worthless.

Maybe my love of the game has caused me to wear blinders to this...I know that I'm not going to let one single alledged (the keyword, in my opinion) steriod user completly ruin the game for me...

And to answer a question raised by Hoopsfan about three pages back.

hoopsfan said:
I guess that's only true if the guy's a member of a team you root for...right??:rolleyes:
No, not true.

I'll stick by "Innocent until proven guilty" for anyone.

Not meaning to be hitting close to home here, but Kobe...Everyone knew it was a money-hungry gold-digger trying to get money...Never did I make a single crack about him...Never did I make a "HE'S GUILTY!" crack...Innocent until proven guilty.

Maybe Im blinded by the love of the game, but until there is proof set in stone, there is nothing more than allegations.
 
T

thesanityannex

Guest
#63
This is going around many baseball message boards and I think it is a hilarious idea.

When Barry comes to the plate, instead of booing (which Bonds loves), everyone just turn their backs to him until his at bat is over. Sounds like a plan to me.

Also, people could get Hank Aaron masks and put them on while he's at bat and boo him.

First at bat against the Padres. Can't wait to see Peavy strike him out. That is, if Bonds can even walk to the batter's box.
 
#64
thesanityannex said:
This is going around many baseball message boards and I think it is a hilarious idea.

When Barry comes to the plate, instead of booing (which Bonds loves), everyone just turn their backs to him until his at bat is over. Sounds like a plan to me.

Also, people could get Hank Aaron masks and put them on while he's at bat and boo him.

First at bat against the Padres. Can't wait to see Peavy strike him out. That is, if Bonds can even walk to the batter's box.
Not sure what good this would do other then make belittle Bonds. Im not a fan of belittling people even if they are wretched.
 
T

thesanityannex

Guest
#65
Yoda said:
Not sure what good this would do other then make belittle Bonds. Im not a fan of belittling people even if they are wretched.
To each his own. And I, unlike you, am not one with the force.
 
#67
This has probably been one of the best threads that I have read on Kingsfans. Both sides have presented solid arguments for their points and have provided good debate.

I feel one more issue or point needs to be brought up to fuel the debate. The argument of "cheating." As far as I can understand we say that Barry cheated because he allegedly took "performance enhancing" drugs. The drugs made Barry have the ability to increase muscle mass and thus have more strength to hit home runs. The drugs were not a "natural" way to grow muscle.

Using this same logic, couldn't we say that any athlete in today's modern world that takes legal supplements and vitamins that are readily available, that aid in health and muscle growth "cheaters"? They are enhancing their workouts in an unnatural way, a way that aids their body in muscle growth and recovery. Steroids are just more effective than any over the counter GNC supplement. In perhaps a more extreme example, corrective lenses or glasses that aid in someones eyesight so they can see the ball better. Is this cheating? They are enhancing their ability in an unnatural way.

Today's athletes have weight trainers, dieticians and doctors that give them an advantage over athletes of years past. Are they cheaters by using these advancements by giving them an unfair advantage over athletes of yesteryear?

The argument is, I guess, that Barry was on an uneven playing field because not everyone used the same steroids he did, giving him this advantage, and that is why he is a cheater. That is a fair statement.

However, I refuse to believe that steroids or any other enhancement make the player. If everyone in MLB used steroids to enhance their abilities you still would only see 1 player every 25-35 years hit 73 home runs. Nobody has the bat speed, mechanics, and eye hand coordination that Barry Bonds has, and he didn't achieve this through steroids. You can't achieve that through steroids, but only through days and years of batting practice and training with a hitting instructor.

I doubt there is a single player in MLB that does not take some kind of supplement that enchances their muslce growth or muscle recovery in weight training.

Twenty years from now there will be even more supplements available for athletes to take that will be more effective than today's steroids, human growth hormones, etc. And they will be legal and without harmful side effects. Such is the world in which we live. Will we call them cheaters when they are allowed to use these things? Will we say their numbers are inflated?

Steroids or no steroids, Barry's accomplishments speak for themselves. If he was clearly innocent from taking these drugs he would undoubtedly be considered the "greatest there ever was." However this is not the case, for me Barry will be a great player, as great as Aaron, Ruth or Mays? No. But he is still a great ball player and an incredible athlete.

I am sure that most of you that claim you are done with baseball because of the steroid scandal are perfectly legitimate, but I find it ironic that for so many to claim to hate what Barry has done or find him reprehensible, he still brings those same people out to the ballpark to see him. They boo him when he comes to the plate, then snap pictures as he swings the bat hoping to catch a shot of him hitting a monster home run. When Barry came back last year at the end of the season, the attendence at the road stadiums the Giants played were usually sold out or atleast 10,000 higher than the normal average attendance for those stadiums. You can't have it both ways, calling him out, yet hoping to see him hit one out of the yard. And you can't tell me they are buying tickets hoping to see Barry strike out.

A polarizing figure indeed.
 

6th

Homer Fan Since 1985
#68
This has been an exceptional thread. While I don't agree with everything that was said here, I appreciate the time given and passion exhibited in these posts.

Lounge Lizard, I especially liked your analysis on cheating. I think that I fall in the group that espouses your take on this.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#70
I, too, am really enjoying the majority of posts in this thread. You guys rock.

My main problem, I think, is that Barry Bonds was an excellent athlete already. Unfortunately, the ravages of time and sport were looming on the horizon, so I believe he was first drawn into the use of steroids to heal quicker and prevent those ravages from stealing his last few years from him. And I think THAT'S not only his problem, but - as someone else has mentioned - the problem Bud Selig put his head in the sand and ignored as long as possible.

Why? Because people were coming back to the game and guys like McGwire, Sosa, and who-knows-else were getting butts back in the seats.

I do think Bonds is wrong to continue to deny what he did. If he had come clean right at the beginning, I think much of this would have been handled differently. After all, look at how many times Darryl Strawberry was given another chance...

Once again, thanks to the majority of you for putting your comments out there. It has been an enjoyable discussion.
 
#71
So, Barry Bonds juiced so that he could hit more home runs off of pitchers who were juicing, and this makes him the Anti-Christ? By the way, his home run explosion also coincided with the Giants moving into a park tailor made for Barry to hit homers. He would have had a home run explosion regardless, but obviously not to the same extent.

Why isn't anyone wondering why Nolan Ryan and Roger Clemens were/are still fireball pitchers well into their 40s? There is nothing suspicious about Clemens post-Boston? Really?

I also think this will all die down once he passes The Babe. Nobody really cares about Aaron and his record. This is all about Barry passing the most feted athlete in history. The Babe didn't take steroids, but he didn't face the kind of sophisticated pitching that Barry has either. Relievers didn't exist in The Babe's era. But, really, this furor exists because of all the credence baseball geeks like Keith Olbermann put on records and stats. No one cares about records in basketball or football, just championships, but God forbid somebody taints the records for all the roto baseball geeks out there.

The MLB sealed its own fate when they made Sosa and McGwire the faces of the game. They could have pumped up Bonds at the time, or Jeter, or any number of guys who were still playing "cleanly". But the summer of '98 sent the message loud and clear that if you wanted to be somebody you better be juicing and knocking dingers. Now they let Bonds twist in the wind as the sacrificial lamb, and it all just reinforces what Barry learned from his dad, that the media is out to get you and the league doesn't care about you. I think Barry's attitude is a confluence of a lot of things, but ultimately is a result of the treatment his father recieved.

And, steroids would absolutely aid a basketball player. While basketball is based largely on skill (shooting, dribbling), so is baseball, and the extra strength/athleticism would be huge. However, weight training in general is still very new to basketball, and really didn't start until MJ and Tim Grove hooked up. Basketball players still tend to shy away from the weights for fear of "losing their shot".
 
T

thesanityannex

Guest
#72
Venom said:
And, steroids would absolutely aid a basketball player. While basketball is based largely on skill (shooting, dribbling), so is baseball, and the extra strength/athleticism would be huge.
I'm having trouble with the notion that steroids would make one more athletic.
 
#73
thesanityannex said:
I'm having trouble with the notion that steroids would make one more athletic.
Well, they certainly aid in developing the muscles that make you faster and jump higher, which would increase athleticism.
 
#74
I'm sure I'll get a lot of heat for saying this, but even if it is proven (it still hasn't been) that he used steroid, he was a hall of famer before that.

Steroids had a major effect on a player like McGwire (who was strictly a good power hitter and nothing else...same with Sosa). With Bonds, yes they definitely would have made him better at hitting for power--but what about the other things he's always been known for. His fielding, his speed. Barry also strikes out a lot less than most power hitters. He's an incredible athlete and baseball player.

It's funny how much the media has focused on the steroids scandal with him...rather than focusing on McGwire. While I don't want to get involved in a racial discussion here...I think that does have something to do with it. Additionaly, Barry has often been seen as a jerk by the media--and therefore by the public too. Whether or not this is true, this has nothing to do with his abilities as an athlete.

I don't condone steroid use, but I think that people are so quick to point out a speck in the eye of another--when there is a plank sticking out of their own. I'm not referring to anyone on this forum, but rather the media as a whole!

I'm probably a bit biased--because I'm a huge Giants fan--and part of me is like "say it isn't so Barry"...but I think that many people have made up there minds about this, regardless of any facts they may not know of.

Bottom line, the Giants need to focus on a future without him.
 
#76
Venom said:
So, Barry Bonds juiced so that he could hit more home runs off of pitchers who were juicing, and this makes him the Anti-Christ? By the way, his home run explosion also coincided with the Giants moving into a park tailor made for Barry to hit homers. He would have had a home run explosion regardless, but obviously not to the same extent.
I don't agree with the stadium bit. It was said many-many times that it's harder to hit HR in the new stadium because of the cove and the wind constantly blowing from the cove and knocking the balls down.
 
#77
LoungeLizard said:
This has probably been one of the best threads that I have read on Kingsfans. Both sides have presented solid arguments for their points and have provided good debate.

I feel one more issue or point needs to be brought up to fuel the debate. The argument of "cheating." As far as I can understand we say that Barry cheated because he allegedly took "performance enhancing" drugs. The drugs made Barry have the ability to increase muscle mass and thus have more strength to hit home runs. The drugs were not a "natural" way to grow muscle.

Using this same logic, couldn't we say that any athlete in today's modern world that takes legal supplements and vitamins that are readily available, that aid in health and muscle growth "cheaters"? They are enhancing their workouts in an unnatural way, a way that aids their body in muscle growth and recovery. Steroids are just more effective than any over the counter GNC supplement. In perhaps a more extreme example, corrective lenses or glasses that aid in someones eyesight so they can see the ball better. Is this cheating? They are enhancing their ability in an unnatural way.

Today's athletes have weight trainers, dieticians and doctors that give them an advantage over athletes of years past. Are they cheaters by using these advancements by giving them an unfair advantage over athletes of yesteryear?

The argument is, I guess, that Barry was on an uneven playing field because not everyone used the same steroids he did, giving him this advantage, and that is why he is a cheater. That is a fair statement.

However, I refuse to believe that steroids or any other enhancement make the player. If everyone in MLB used steroids to enhance their abilities you still would only see 1 player every 25-35 years hit 73 home runs. Nobody has the bat speed, mechanics, and eye hand coordination that Barry Bonds has, and he didn't achieve this through steroids. You can't achieve that through steroids, but only through days and years of batting practice and training with a hitting instructor.

I doubt there is a single player in MLB that does not take some kind of supplement that enchances their muslce growth or muscle recovery in weight training.

Twenty years from now there will be even more supplements available for athletes to take that will be more effective than today's steroids, human growth hormones, etc. And they will be legal and without harmful side effects. Such is the world in which we live. Will we call them cheaters when they are allowed to use these things? Will we say their numbers are inflated?

Steroids or no steroids, Barry's accomplishments speak for themselves. If he was clearly innocent from taking these drugs he would undoubtedly be considered the "greatest there ever was." However this is not the case, for me Barry will be a great player, as great as Aaron, Ruth or Mays? No. But he is still a great ball player and an incredible athlete.

I am sure that most of you that claim you are done with baseball because of the steroid scandal are perfectly legitimate, but I find it ironic that for so many to claim to hate what Barry has done or find him reprehensible, he still brings those same people out to the ballpark to see him. They boo him when he comes to the plate, then snap pictures as he swings the bat hoping to catch a shot of him hitting a monster home run. When Barry came back last year at the end of the season, the attendence at the road stadiums the Giants played were usually sold out or atleast 10,000 higher than the normal average attendance for those stadiums. You can't have it both ways, calling him out, yet hoping to see him hit one out of the yard. And you can't tell me they are buying tickets hoping to see Barry strike out.

A polarizing figure indeed.
Great post.
 
#80
LoungeLizard said:
Perhaps the truest statement on this thread.
FP made a coment about that exact subject this week and I think he is right. Bonds is getting like 20mil a year or something outragous, when he is gone the Giants will be able to go out and get 4-5 quality players for that salary.

With all that said I still don't know why the Giants never made a strong run for Vlad when he was on the market a few years back.
 
#82
So now there will be an official investigation into Bonds and possible steriod use. I don't get it. If they find that he used - what then? It was fair and legal under MLB. I have not read this entire thread, so I am sure others have made this point. In my eyes, Bud Selig is the villian. He did nothing to police the sport. This guy may have destroyed what is left of MLB. I wish everyone would turn their anger towards him. Bonds was playing within the rules. Please give the man peace regardless of what type of person you think he is.

Finally, I wish people would stop viewing Babe Ruth and his records as being sacred. Would the Babe have said no to the juice?
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#83
kupman said:
So now there will be an official investigation into Bonds and possible steriod use. I don't get it. If they find that he used - what then? It was fair and legal under MLB. I have not read this entire thread, so I am sure others have made this point. In my eyes, Bud Selig is the villian. He did nothing to police the sport. This guy may have destroyed what is left of MLB. I wish everyone would turn their anger towards him. Bonds was playing within the rules. Please give the man peace regardless of what type of person you think he is.

Finally, I wish people would stop viewing Babe Ruth and his records as being sacred. Would the Babe have said no to the juice?
If you're going to participate in a thread, one would think you'd show enough respect for all who have posted in it to at least read it.

Sorry, but the "give the man peace" stuff is just wrong. Give him peace? Bonds could have stopped this a long time ago had he simply NOT LIED repeatedly and ad nauseum.

This isn't about Babe Ruth, by the way. Never has been. People who have to bring him up in regards to this is just trying to change the subject to avoid talking about the real issue.
 
T

thesanityannex

Guest
#84
And the latest..................Bonds now refuses to cooperate with the leagues investigation. I wonder why.........
 
#85
It's just sad. America's pastime, huh? There really is no good outcome to all of this. What do they do when everything starts to come out? Will we ever know the real truth? Does it really matter? All I know is that, while not an AVID follower of the game, I am much less inclined to watch now. I do think that Selig has done a bad job with all of this. I am very disappointed in not only the athletes, but also the coaches, trainers, owners, etc, etc, etc. How did they NOT all know it was going on and are they going to blame it all on the players and not except their fault in all of this?
 
T

thesanityannex

Guest
#86
What the MLB is doing is great. They should definitely investigate this and show everyone what is going on.










Only problem is they should have done this ten years ago.
 
#87
I have been a HUGE baseball fan my whole life, and this is one more knock that the sport can't afford.

Steroids is the dirty little family secret that everyone knows about, but no one ever comes right out and discusses it. It's just hinted around. And the whole thing is disheartening.

I do think that Bonds has lied about what he has done, and that he seems to have a Superman complex. He acts as though he is invincible, but all it takes is for one person on the inside to be his kryptonite. Sadly, he was an amazing player before feeling the need to poison his body (that last part being my own opinion).

Bud Selig needs to go. How can you be the commissioner of Major League Baseball and be able to turn a blind eye to what's going on? Bring in some fresh blood to head up baseball, someone who's not going to put up with the crap that has been going on for years.

Excellent thread, BTW. I have enjoyed reading everyone's take on this issue. Baseball needs to be straightened out, one way or another. Whether Bonds is innocent or guilty is only a small part of the whole picture.

 
T

thesanityannex

Guest
#88
OHSacFan said:
Whether Bonds is innocent or guilty is only a small part of the whole picture.
Exactly. The only reason the finger of blame has been solely placed on him is because of his refusal to admit it. He is going to come out of this looking extremely bad, whereas people such as Giambi, Caminiti, McGwire, Sosa, Palemeiro etc....will all be forgotten. Bonds has dug his own hole, and its a deep one. Problem is, he doesn't realize how deep his hole actually is.
 
#89
thesanityannex said:
Exactly. The only reason the finger of blame has been solely placed on him is because of his refusal to admit it.
Thats not the reason, the reason is because he is about to break the most cherished/significant record in baseball, otherwise this still would be a big story but not even close to the magnitude.
 
T

thesanityannex

Guest
#90
BigWaxer said:
Thats not the reason, the reason is because he is about to break the most cherished/significant record in baseball, otherwise this still would be a big story but not even close to the magnitude.
Yes. This is the obvious reason. This has been discussed thoroughly so I didn't mention it again. My point was to show the people who always ask "why do they only talk about Bonds?". Bonds is the last one standing who won't admit his use.