And how will Bonds spin this?

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#1
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/wires/03/07/2010.ap.bbn.bonds.steroids.3rd.ld.writethru.1205/

Report: Bonds began using steroids, vast array of other drugs, in 1998
Posted: Tuesday Mar 7, 2006 9:07 PM


SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. (AP) - Barry Bonds' alleged steroid use is the story of spring training again, no matter how hard he and the San Francisco Giants try to avoid it and keep the focus on his chase of the home run record.

Bonds used a vast array of performance-enhancing drugs - including steroids and human growth hormone - for at least five seasons beginning in 1998, according to a book written by two San Francisco Chronicle reporters.

An excerpt from "Game of Shadows,'' which details the slugger's extensive doping program, appears in the March 13 issue of Sports Illustrated.

"I won't even look at it. For what? There's no need to,'' Bonds said Tuesday after a workout at Scottsdale Stadium. The Giants said Bonds would not comment further.

The 41-year-old Bonds, who testified before a California federal grand jury investigating steroid use by top athletes, repeatedly has denied using performance-enhancing drugs.

"I've read what was reported,'' Bonds' agent, Jeff Borris, told The Associated Press. "Barry is looking forward to playing this year and the improved health of his knee, and being as productive as he's ever been.''

Phone messages left by the AP seeking comment from Bonds' attorney and publicist were not immediately returned Tuesday.

"No, no, no, I don't want to talk about Bonds. I'll see you later,'' San Francisco manager Felipe Alou said after the Giants' 12-3 win over San Diego in Peoria before bolting onto the bus.

Baseball did not ban performance-enhancing drugs until after the 2002 season, though there has long been suspicion that some star players such as Bonds were taking steroids to gain an edge. This book is yet another distraction for Bonds, who has become as accustomed to steroids questions in recent years as he has inquiries related to his powerful left-handed swing.

"It wasn't illegal,'' Orioles manager Sam Perlozzo said in Florida. "The thing we all worry about is the fact that people discount the fact that you put some numbers up. When you put things like that in jeopardy and in doubt, it's not good for the game. Anytime there's a number out there that we've all thought was natural, it taints the game a little. You wonder about the stats. But we don't know how many did it. Maybe everyone did.''

Authors Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams, who led the newspaper's coverage of the BALCO scandal, recount in remarkable detail the specifics of Bonds' drug regimen, which they write started in 1998 with injections of Winstrol, a powerful steroid also linked to Rafael Palmeiro.

"The Giants have a long-standing policy not to comment on this legal matter,'' said Staci Slaughter, the team's vice president of communications.

According to the book, Bonds was using two undetectable designer steroids, informally known as the cream and the clear, plus insulin, human growth hormone and other performance enhancers by 2001, when he hit 73 home runs for the Giants to break Mark McGwire's single-season record of 70 set in 1998.

"I read it, man. I was lost. I didn't even know there were that many kind of steroids,'' said Cubs manager Dusty Baker, Bonds' former skipper in San Francisco. "I've never even seen steroids. I didn't even know what kind of steroids are steroids other than the kinds you use to fight allergies. ... I was quite surprised with the detail that was in there.''

Bonds, a seven-time NL MVP, enters this season with 708 homers, seven shy of passing Babe Ruth and 48 from breaking Hank Aaron's career mark. Bonds said before last season ended that he wanted to get "skinny,'' but he is about the same size or slightly heavier this spring and is yet to play an exhibition game on his surgically repaired right knee. He underwent three operations last year.

"Game of Shadows'' is scheduled to be published March 27 by Gotham Books.

Giants general manager Brian Sabean declined to address the book during Tuesday's game, saying, "Just baseball, guys.''

BALCO, the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative founded by Victor Conte, kept track of Bonds' drug use in detail, with folders and calendars that chronicled everything from schedules and quantities to his testosterone levels. Much of that information was obtained by federal agents when they raided the lab in September 2003.

According to reports in The Chronicle, Bonds testified to the grand jury in late 2003 that he used a clear substance and a cream given to him by his personal trainer, Greg Anderson, who pleaded guilty in the BALCO case last July to steroid distribution and money laundering. Bonds said he didn't know that what he was using was a steroid, the newspaper reported.

In October, Anderson was sentenced to three months in prison and three months in home confinement. Conte was among three other men who also pleaded guilty to their role in supplying steroids to elite athletes.

According to the book, Bonds used several substances in various forms - by injecting himself with a syringe, taking injections from Anderson, gulping pills, putting liquid drops under his tongue or rubbing cream on his skin.

Bonds became so experienced and well-versed with the regimen that he occasionally overruled Anderson and took control of his own doping schedule, the book says.

Baseball commissioner Bud Selig had not reviewed the material and had no comment, spokesman Rich Levin said. Selig was en route from Milwaukee to Phoenix for the World Baseball Classic.

Bonds, who will turn 42 in July, played in only 14 games last season, all in September, following the three knee operations. He showed signs of his old self in his brief return, hitting five homers in 42 at-bats.

He caused a stir before spring training started this year with contradicting interviews in February. Bonds told USA Today that his knee bothered him so much he would probably retire after the season, with or without the home run record. Then he told MLB.com that his knee brace felt good enough for him to possibly play 10 more seasons.

He is in the final season of his $90 million, five-year contract and will be eligible for free agency after the World Series, meaning his time with the Giants could be up even if he doesn't retire. He has often said he wants to retire in San Francisco.

The Chronicle reporters, who based the book on a two-year investigation, included an extensive summary on their sources, including court documents, affidavits filed by BALCO investigators, documents written by federal agents, grand jury testimony, audio recordings and interviews with more than 200 people.
---
AP Baseball Writers Mike Fitzpatrick and Ben Walker and AP Sports Writers Gregg Bell and David Ginsburg contributed to this story.
 

SLAB

Hall of Famer
#2
Just more of the same.

Until it's proven without a shadow of a doubt, it's just a bunch of people trying to string together theories trying to put a widley known jerk away for good.

Give it a rest.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#3
Give it a rest?

Sorry, SLAB, but the evidence just keeps mounting. This is a new article about a new book written by two sports reporters for the San Francisco Chronicle who had access to a lot of documents, etc.

Proven without a shadow of a doubt? What do you want? A picture of him actually using something?

In a civil trail, there is something called a preponderance of evidence. The whole thing about Bonds is RAPIDLY approaching that level.

Give it a rest? Sorry, but he could have quelled all of this by telling the truth. He didn't; he continues to maintain he's been framed, etc. From what I'm reading, his arguments just became a lot more specious.
 
#4
I am a Barry Bonds fan and a native San Franciscan and life long San Francisco Giant fan. This matters to me not one single bit. This is a long line of allegations that has dogged Bonds for the last five years.

And even if you did show me a picture of Barry Bonds sticking a needle in his rear end, that does not change how I feel about him as a baseball player. All I care about is the San Francisco Giants holding up a World Series trophy come October. And if Bonds stays healthy, there is a great chance of that happening.

Call me naive, selfish, turning a blind eye, whatever. Barry Bonds is the one that has to live with the present spotlight and the future consequences. It is his life that he is ruining, and in the end what is in the dark always comes out in the light. That time has not come yet. And spare me the "what about the kids" crap. Parents parent and baseball players play baseball. Steroids is much bigger than Bonds. That is like saying Snoop Dogg is responsible for kids smoking weed.

I am so looking forward to the baseball season, and I refuse to be a hypocrite and say I will not root for Bonds and the Giants, because I know I will.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#5
Purple Reign said:
I am a Barry Bonds fan and a native San Franciscan and life long San Francisco Giant fan. This matters to me not one single bit. This is a long line of allegations that has dogged Bonds for the last five years.

And even if you did show me a picture of Barry Bonds sticking a needle in his rear end, that does not change how I feel about him as a baseball player. All I care about is the San Francisco Giants holding up a World Series trophy come October. And if Bonds stays healthy, there is a great chance of that happening.

Call me naive, selfish, turning a blind eye, whatever. Barry Bonds is the one that has to live with the present spotlight and the future consequences. It is his life that he is ruining, and in the end what is in the dark always comes out in the light. That time has not come yet. And spare me the "what about the kids" crap. Parents parent and baseball players play baseball. Steroids is much bigger than Bonds. That is like saying Snoop Dogg is responsible for kids smoking weed.

I am so looking forward to the baseball season, and I refuse to be a hypocrite and say I will not root for Bonds and the Giants, because I know I will.
:eek:


Wow. Just... Wow... :eek:
 
#6
Purple Reign said:
I am a Barry Bonds fan and a native San Franciscan and life long San Francisco Giant fan. This matters to me not one single bit. This is a long line of allegations that has dogged Bonds for the last five years.

And even if you did show me a picture of Barry Bonds sticking a needle in his rear end, that does not change how I feel about him as a baseball player. All I care about is the San Francisco Giants holding up a World Series trophy come October. And if Bonds stays healthy, there is a great chance of that happening.

Call me naive, selfish, turning a blind eye, whatever. Barry Bonds is the one that has to live with the present spotlight and the future consequences. It is his life that he is ruining, and in the end what is in the dark always comes out in the light. That time has not come yet. And spare me the "what about the kids" crap. Parents parent and baseball players play baseball. Steroids is much bigger than Bonds. That is like saying Snoop Dogg is responsible for kids smoking weed.

I am so looking forward to the baseball season, and I refuse to be a hypocrite and say I will not root for Bonds and the Giants, because I know I will.
Right on. If you want to criticize steroids, criticize steroids. Not Bonds. Besides, look at his pre-98 numbers: he's still be a 400HR/400SB for his career- no one else ever hit 300/300. And it's hardly a stretch to think he'd still reach 500/500 with steroids, an absurd feat that no one else will ever come close to touching. The guys game is amazing, he is 10x better for his career than anyone else playing today (think about his career batting, add in gold gloves, no one else comes close to doing everything like Bonds). I'm tired of reading crap like this:
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_y...B?slug=dw-bondsbook030706&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
"No middle ground, no room for debate, or ethics"..."Yeah, sit him and let the old drug cheat waste away, never getting a chance to take a final shot at Babe Ruth and Henry Aaron, never again letting the village idiot Giants fans applaud him as some hero."

Right, let's ignore all the social factors that contribute to pro sports being so corrupt and disgusting, let's not consider the ethics of steroid use, let's not factor in that MLB basically sanctioned the use of steroids during this era (and clowns like Wetzel sat on their hands the entire time, happy to have good stories to write), let's canonize guys like Babe Ruth, forgot the ugly past of an ugly sport of an ugly country, sweep it all away. It doesn't matter. Barry Bonds is the root of all evil. He probably single handedly forced baseball to go on strike, forced drugs down Mark McGwire's throat, and ruined Sammy Sosa's career. And while we're at it let's take some swipes at the fans for no good reason. Bonds is a personification of the utter failure of the sport. But at this point, he just took advantage of a broken system better than anyone else. If you want to walk away from all of baseball, that's fine. I applaud you. (I know you've said that's your stance before, VF, and I honestly don't watch very much anymore anyways) But to take aim at Bonds, independent of everything else that was occured, is stupid, irresponsible and just wrong.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#8
What is stupid, irresponsible and just wrong is that people place sports, sporting events and trophies above honesty and integrity, especially in someone like Bonds who has been held up as a role model for young people.

It's not about social factors that contribute to anything. There are a vast number of professional athletes who have managed to compete without resorting to the use of performance enhancing chemicals. Barry Bonds and all the others who took the steroids should be ashamed. They have forever tarnished America's national pastime to the point it's now nothing more than a joke, a shell of what it once was.

I remember the true greats - guys like Willie McCovey, Harmon Killebrew, Roy Campanella and Orlando Cepeda. Unfortunately, because of people who resorted to the use of steroids to artifically enhance their abilities, those men and others like them are pretty much forgotten. McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, and any of the others who inflated themselves and their statistics should be ashamed.
 
#9
Being a teacher involved in my school's athletic programs, I DO want positive role models for my student-athletes to look up to in society. Professional ball players are role models whether or not they choose to accept that responsibility. It is part of our culture today. I do not want my students to think steroids are EVER safe or ok to use.

That being said, I honestly do not understand the focus on Bonds about this. I, personally, believe that the majority of pro baseball players have used them at some point in their career. Many with the knowledge, approval, and encouragemant of agents, owners, coaches, and teammates. WIN AT ALL COSTS has been the motto for too long.

Taking steroids is wrong, but why spend so much time focusing on what player X or Y took years ago? Why not spend more time and money focusing on who is doing it now and stopping them? Why are other players more closely looked at than others? Do we really believe that only a few took steroids?

I'll admit that I am not a huge baseball fan. I keep up with the Braves )as all good little girls who grew in the southeast do), I watch some playoff games and all of the World series. That about covers all of my baseball interest. Maybe I would understand more if I follwed the game more closely, but I just do not get it. The past cannot be changes, but we can clean up today and make tomorrow better.

I just think more effort should be spent teaching and showing our kids a better way to improve their game without steroids as opposed to uncovering who may or may not have taking steroids years ago. since we cannot go back and test them, there will always be doubts one way ot another.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#10
Hardly a shocker. The 1998 forward jump in his statistics was just bizarre and completely unnatural. I would have been (and was) suspicious long before any of this stuff started.

And from the list of their sources, sounds like the last of the gig may be up.

In any case, Barry was a HOF baseball player before he started cheating, and I would think obviously will be anyway. But he's no legend, beyond being a legendarily arrogant figure, and its a travesty that baseball is going to allow its recordbook to be perverted in this way.
 
#11
Bricklayer said:
Hardly a shocker. The 1998 forward jump in his statistics was just bizarre and completely unnatural. I would have been (and was) suspicious long before any of this stuff started.

And from the list of their sources, sounds like the last of the gig may be up.

In any case, Barry was a HOF baseball player before he started cheating, and I would think obviously will be anyway. But he's no legend, beyond being a legendarily arrogant figure, and its a travesty that baseball is going to allow its recordbook to be perverted in this way.
TOTALLY AGREE. My question is - How do you really know who was and was not taking them? We can't go back and test people. Do they simply put an asterick (I hate that saying) around the entire era or what? I just do not think that we will ever know everyone who did, so why dwell on it? Fix it from today on.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#12
Bricklayer said:
Hardly a shocker. The 1998 forward jump in his statistics was just bizarre and completely unnatural. I would have been (and was) suspicious long before any of this stuff started.

And from the list of their sources, sounds like the last of the gig may be up.

In any case, Barry was a HOF baseball player before he started cheating, and I would think obviously will be anyway. But he's no legend, beyond being a legendarily arrogant figure, and its a travesty that baseball is going to allow its recordbook to be perverted in this way.
And that, in a nutshell, is what I object to.

If he came out and admitted the obvious, that would be one thing. But he hasn't. He has continually made a mockery of the whole thing.

chelle - It's not about changing the past or finding out which players no longer playing may or may not have taken steroids. It's about a player who is STILL playing, who is closing in on one of the most treasured records in the sport of baseball, and who is, without a doubt, doing so because at least part of his achievements were done with performance enhancing drugs.

As far as the majority of players goes, I disagree. There is a certain "look" to athletes who use the steroids we're talking about.

When you're playing professional sports and standing as a role model for future athletes, you can take several paths. I honestly have more respect for Latrell Sprewell than I do for Barry Bonds. At least Sprewell has been honest. Bonds has held himself up as some kind of victim, some innocent pawn in a mysterious game only he seems to fully comprehend. His protestations of innocence, even when faced with mountains of evidence, are ingenuous. The fact he thinks he's smarter than everyone who isn't taken in by his weak excuses, etc. speaks of an ego beyond comprehension.

That's what I find to be totally unforgiveable. But, as someone pointed out above, I've made no secret about not following baseball any longer. It's not the game my dad and I used to listen to on the radio.

I hope Barry Bonds gets whatever recognition down the road that he has earned.
 
#13
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
....I have just four words for the both of you: lack of moral relativity.
Did you just insinuate that I have no morals?:mad: How dare you and anybody who put sports in such a context that Bonds using steroids is one of The Ten Commandments.

I am sick of hypocritical nay-bobs that point out steroids as the crime of the century, that messes with the integrity of the darling, pristine, holy sport of baseball, that lead children down the road to degredation when there are plenty of other criminals in sports that go scott free. Kobe Bryant raped a woman, Ray Lewis played a part in a double murder, Pete Rose cheated in baseball and on his taxes, and they are still advocated by millions of fans all over the world.

Barry Bonds is the subject of an "unauthorized" tell all book that reports leaked Grand Jury testimony and sordid gossipy information from a scorned mistress, and he is Jeffery Dahmer. Typical double standard.
 
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#14
VF21 said:
When you're playing professional sports and standing as a role model for future athletes, you can take several paths. I honestly have more respect for Latrell Sprewell than I do for Barry Bonds. At least Sprewell has been honest. Bonds has held himself up as some kind of victim, some innocent pawn in a mysterious game only he seems to fully comprehend. His protestations of innocence, even when faced with mountains of evidence, are ingenuous. The fact he thinks he's smarter than everyone who isn't taken in by his weak excuses, etc. speaks of an ego beyond comprehension.
OK, so it is acceptable to choke out your coach and be up front, than to take steroids and act like a jerk. Help me understand that logic.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#15
Purple Reign said:
Did you just insinuate that I have no morals?:mad: How dare you and anybody who put sports in such a context that Bonds using steroids is one of The Ten Commandments.

I am sick of hypocritical nay-bobs that point out steroids as the crime of the century, that messes with the integrity of the darling, pristine, holy sport of baseball, that lead children down the road to degredation when there are plenty of other criminals in sports that go scott free. Kobe Bryant raped a woman, Ray Lewis played a part in a double murder, Pete Rose cheated in baseball and on his taxes, and they are still advocated by millions of fans all over the world.

Barry Bonds is the subject of an "unauthorized" tell all book that reports leaked Grand Jury testimony and sordid gossipy information from a scorned mistress, and he is Jeffery Dahmer. Typical double standard.
Oh no. You are missing the essential difference.

Bonds CHEATED. He did not play the same game as the other guys. He cheated. Therefore his records are non-existent. Its about integrity. Wahtever the various bozos have done in their personal lives to be despicable PEOPLE, Barry did it on the field. He cheated, and so the game itself, the ONLY reason anybody gives a damn that Barry Bonds is even alive, became a sham.

The game does not exist without a level playing field. It is meaningless. As are his achievements. Lousy message to be sending to any kid that cheating is the path to glory.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#16
Purple Reign said:
I am sick of hypocritical nay-bobs that point out steroids as the crime of the century, that messes with the integrity of the darling, pristine, holy sport of baseball, that lead children down the road to degredation when there are plenty of other criminals in sports that go scott free. Kobe Bryant raped a woman, Ray Lewis played a part in a double murder, Pete Rose cheated in baseball and on his taxes, and they are still advocated by millions of fans all over the world.

Barry Bonds is the subject of an "unauthorized" tell all book that reports leaked Grand Jury testimony and sordid gossipy information from a scorned mistress, and he is Jeffery Dahmer. Typical double standard.
Sorry, but there is no double standard here; those words might be relevant if I *didn't* think that all those guys that you named are scum, and respectively represent a different facet of what's wrong with sports (and the world at large)... but I do. Professional sports being infested with "worse" criminals doesn't make Bonds any less of a criminal himself. And, he cheated.

And, speaking of hypocrisy, where do you get off accusing Bryant of rape when he was acquitted, whilst having the nerve to say that Bonds has only been alleged of his crimes out of the other side of your mouth? For that matter, Lewis was acquitted of murder, too? If you're going to be indignant, at least be consistent.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#17
PurpleReign - Latrell Sprewell has never claimed to be anything other than what he is... All I said was that I have MORE respect for Sprewell than for Bonds. Anyone who has read my comments about Spre over the years knows full well how little regard I have for him. I was using him as a pretty obvious example of the extreme lack of respect I have for Barry Bonds.

Respect Barry Bonds if you choose. It is, after all, not going to affect me one way or the other. I'm not taking this personally. You apparently are and I'm not going to get into a heated argument with another Kings fan over someone like Barry Bonds. Saying there are worse criminals out there than Bonds doesn't absolve him of his wrongdoings.

It's not just an "unauthorized" tell-all book. These journalists have amassed an amazing amount of supporting documentation. If you choose to look the other way so you can continue to root for your Giants, that's your decision to make. I just find it sad that he and he alone is above any kind of criticism because he's so important to some fans.

Peace, Purple Reign. Have a nice evening.
 
#18
I agree with both sides on this issue. The steriod issue is one of the main reasons I don't follow baseball anymore. Ever HR I questioned and its a said joke.


Of course then I have to ask with the very lax NBA policy...how many NBA player's have used. Nobody questions how Lebron/Amare were so big at such a young age. Is it a product of hard work? I have my doubts...
 
#19
VF21 said:
What is stupid, irresponsible and just wrong is that people place sports, sporting events and trophies above honesty and integrity, especially in someone like Bonds who has been held up as a role model for young people.

It's not about social factors that contribute to anything. There are a vast number of professional athletes who have managed to compete without resorting to the use of performance enhancing chemicals. Barry Bonds and all the others who took the steroids should be ashamed. They have forever tarnished America's national pastime to the point it's now nothing more than a joke, a shell of what it once was.

I remember the true greats - guys like Willie McCovey, Harmon Killebrew, Roy Campanella and Orlando Cepeda. Unfortunately, because of people who resorted to the use of steroids to artifically enhance their abilities, those men and others like them are pretty much forgotten. McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, and any of the others who inflated themselves and their statistics should be ashamed.
Right, let's make the role models for society guys who makes millions per year for being very very lucky and gifted. Give young people false hopes of making millions through a sport that will inevitably abandon them. Idolize people who are some of the most selfish and insulated in society, who regularly cheat on their wives, abandon responsibilities, only work for fun and party whenever they please. Guys who say they want to help out kids, their communities, where they're from, to turn around and tell those kids to buy their $100 name brand shoes. Let's idolize sports where guys making over 1 mill per year go on strike (or threaten to), where it is a regular practice to just not go to work if you don't like your employer because hey, someone will hire you. Sports where smoking pot is a worse offense then armed robbery or aggravated assault. Let's idolize an event where only the elite can truly enjoy it- who else gets courtside seats or can afford season tickets? Let's idolize a sport that can help even the poorest gets get out of poverty- but if they miss the cut to the pros, they're just lazy bums who never had good enough parents. How about sports that encourage high school kids to ignore their studies, fail out of classes, as long as they got some talent. There's always prep school.

I know everyone's gonna jump on me, say this doesn't excuse Bonds. It doesn't. But read that article I posted. Consider that this thread exists to go after one man, not even all of a completely tattered MLB. (the title of this thread is "How will Bonds spin this", not "MLB failed" or something like that) If you say this is about all of baseball, you're delusional. Read the editorials, read this thread, watch ESPN, the media hates Barry and chooses to go after him rather than everything else that is wrong with sports.

I'll try to make this clear: it is absolute bull**** that this should be such a big issue in light of everything that is wrong with baseball, with all of sports, that the media let's slide. Because honestly, without all the kids who fail (think Hoop Dreams) we would never get the LeBron Jameses, Kobe Bryants, any superstars-even if they do go to college. Remember last years draft? When it was news that Andrew Bogut went to class, and had a job? Damn. Ballers don't need jobs, or to go to class. It'll be taken care of in the draft, right? Right?

If you don't talk about these issues, don't talk about Barry. Role models my ***. Barry is the absolute least of the problems with role models in sports. The worst role model in all of sports in LeBron James (screw school, kid, you got mad skills. You'll get 100 mil before you're even drafted). But no, he's the chosen one. I forgot. Can't violate the sanctity of good old steroid-free sports.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#20
Barry Bonds cheated. He was outed and he lied.

That's what this is about. Stretch it any way you like, captain bill, and expound to your heart's delight.

The article that I posted was about Barry Bonds. That's why I titled it "How will Bonds spin this?" since that's what he has done the entire time.

It's not about Kobe, it's not about LeBron James, it's not even about Pete Rose. It's about Barry Bonds. And thus my comments were in response to that particular topic.
 
#21
VF21 said:
Barry Bonds cheated. He was outed and he lied.

That's what this is about. Stretch it any way you like, captain bill, and expound to your heart's delight.

The article that I posted was about Barry Bonds. That's why I titled it "How will Bonds spin this?" since that's what he has done the entire time.

It's not about Kobe, it's not about LeBron James, it's not even about Pete Rose. It's about Barry Bonds. And thus my comments were in response to that particular topic.
But you cannot isolate Bonds from sports, and by MLB's standards, he did not cheat- baseball had condoned steroids for a long time, and indirectly encouraged it by capitalizing on the McGwire/Sosa HR race. The scrutiny on Bonds as in individual, as the primary villain in all this, gives MLB a free pass. Again, look at the furor at Bonds- why is it any different then the other players who have been caught, and forgiven? Because he denied it? I don't buy it. Barry is not the only player who has used steroids and won't admit to it. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of current and former players who used steroids and will never admit to it. Picking on Bonds- and this is about Bonds, there can be no doubt about that- ignores what is so much worse. Juan Rincon used steroids, lied, and was outed. Where's his thread?

Now, the natural response to this, is that Barry tainted the record books. So? Stats are stats, at this point they're all tainted. Do an asterisk for the enitre era.

But that's not enough, people go after Bonds individually. As a symbol, maybe, but still, you can only claim that if you critique all of baseball in teh process (which no one is doing, because everyone likes a good villain). The biggest concern- which you raised by referring back to the so-called true greats, and everyone else directly brings up- is that Bonds is a bad role model. Which, as I was ranting about, is a stupid argument to make.

Bottom line, there is no justification for going after a player as an individual, as a person, being uniquely worse than everyone else. If you want to say, Barry is the most visible example of the shameful steroid era in MLB, and perhaps the moral decadence of all sports in general, then I applaud you. But the hateful trite leveled at Barry as a person (read the yahoo! article I posted, or pretty much any piece on Barry, lots of posts in this thread) is nothing more than just white noise, covering up endemic problems in all of sports.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#22
I can isolate MY discussion of Barry Bonds from sports. You continue to bring tangental comments into your rationalizations. My point is pretty clear. Barry Bonds is different because he is going to most likely enter the record books with a feat that will stand for a very long time. And it's a fraud. If you can live with that, fine. I object to it, which I do believe is my right.

If people didn't attempt to canonize Bonds, I most likely wouldn't make such a fuss about his lack of suitability for said role. It is about Bonds - his character or lack thereof, and the lengths some people go to in an attempt to whitewash what's gone on.

Yes, MLB has a lot of problems but that doesn't mean Bonds shouldn't be held accountable.

Lots of people cheat. Lots of people do things against the law. And lots of them get away with it. When they're caught or outed, however, then it becomes gristle for all of us to chew.

Hateful trite (I assume you mean tripe) leveled at Barry as a person? No, harsh criticism leveled at someone who put himself above the game, the fans, etc. to give himself an edge.
 
#23
VF21 said:
I can isolate MY discussion of Barry Bonds from sports. You continue to bring tangental comments into your rationalizations. My point is pretty clear. Barry Bonds is different because he is going to most likely enter the record books with a feat that will stand for a very long time. And it's a fraud. If you can live with that, fine. I object to it, which I do believe is my right.

If people didn't attempt to canonize Bonds, I most likely wouldn't make such a fuss about his lack of suitability for said role. It is about Bonds - his character or lack thereof, and the lengths some people go to in an attempt to whitewash what's gone on.

Yes, MLB has a lot of problems but that doesn't mean Bonds shouldn't be held accountable.

Lots of people cheat. Lots of people do things against the law. And lots of them get away with it. When they're caught or outed, however, then it becomes gristle for all of us to chew.

Hateful trite (I assume you mean tripe) leveled at Barry as a person? No, harsh criticism leveled at someone who put himself above the game, the fans, etc. to give himself an edge.
I don't want to argue with you because, I'm assuming, I basically agree with you. The hateful trite writing I was referring to was the article I posted, which is pretty much representative of the indignation feigned by sports writers and fans across the country who want a pariah to rally against rather than dealing with the horribly broken system of sports in this country. Bonds broke the rules, so ESPN hires a full time crew who's only job is to talk about him and his steroids. The way it plays out, a consensus is created that Bonds is bad. If everyone acknowledges that something is evil, we must be, by extrapolation, good. We fight evil, Barry is evil, we fight Barry, we are good.

I'm not saying this is your argument, VF, and I'm sorry I quoted you specifically, I probably should've just posted my article and been happy, I was just angered by the idea of Bonds being a bad role model, and the assumption that we should find better role models in sports.

Just think about the problems that sports brings to the world, then think about the way the Bonds issued is framed (he's cold and mean to reporters is apparently a big issue), and you should understand why it infuriates me so much. Hypocricy of the worst order.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#24
Fair enough, captain bill. I see where you're coming from...

I do agree that finding role models in sports is not the way to go. Unfortunately, it is the way we have gone. I would much rather our children look to teachers, law enforcement, doctors, and even the guy who works three jobs to make sure his kids go to college, but they don't seem to make the evening news. Not enough glamor I guess...

Have a good evening.
 
#25
more allegations. i need concrete evidence before my opinion on bonds changes.

sorry, these guys are twats. i used to read their hogwash in the chronicle, i'm not going to waste my time ready this garbago

i don't know what bonds does or doesn't inject in his body. personally, i could care less. only he truly knows.

as long as the salaries in major league baseball are as high as they are, there will always be cheaters. the money means more to them then their health. money will make people do anything these days. it's a shame, but this problem isn't going away. the underground market will always be coming up with new drugs, new masking agents, becuase everyone wants to get their money, in a clean way or not. and singleing one person out does nothing to solve the problem
 

SLAB

Hall of Famer
#26
As I said, it's all just more of the same...Allegations, and nothing more.

Help me out here guys...Isn't this country built on a certian system.

Ah, yes...

Innocent until PROVEN guilty.
NOT
Guilty until proven innocent.

There is absolutly no concrete evidence that he is doing it, not one positive test.

Call it turning a blind eye, call it being a Giants homer, call it whatever you want, but until there is concrete evidence that shouts "BONDS DID STEROIDS" Im going to assume the best.
 
#27
SLAB said:
As I said, it's all just more of the same...Allegations, and nothing more.

Help me out here guys...Isn't this country built on a certian system.

Ah, yes...

Innocent until PROVEN guilty.
NOT
Guilty until proven innocent.
I guess that's only true if the guy's a member of a team you root for...right??:rolleyes:
 
#28
It seems to me that this issue on this board is split right down the middle. I choose to believe that Bonds played within the rules of the sport at the time. Right or wrong society, Bonds, MLB is all guilty, but to make Bonds the poster child and whipping boy is unfair at best.

Why is it that "if you are not cheating, you are not trying" applies to everybody else except those we do not like. This is a big 'ole witch hunt as far as I am concerned, and i can not help but think if this was Mark McGwire, Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson would the story be the same.
 
M

MrBiggs

Guest
#29
Mr. S£im Citrus said:

And, he cheated
Why do you think that? Are you dissmissing the hours in the gym and the torturous traning that he put himself through? You must think that steroids is some kind of magical drug that inflates your body with functional muscle, swinging power, and proper batting form.
 
#30
Mr. S£im Citrus said:

Sorry, but there is no double standard here; those words might be relevant if I *didn't* think that all those guys that you named are scum, and respectively represent a different facet of what's wrong with sports (and the world at large)... but I do. Professional sports being infested with "worse" criminals doesn't make Bonds any less of a criminal himself. And, he cheated.

And, speaking of hypocrisy, where do you get off accusing Bryant of rape when he was acquitted, whilst having the nerve to say that Bonds has only been alleged of his crimes out of the other side of your mouth? For that matter, Lewis was acquitted of murder, too? If you're going to be indignant, at least be consistent.
When has Bonds been charged with a crime?
Where was Barry Bonds arrested?
Where on Smoking Gun.com can I find Bonds mug shot.
Where is the public record that Bonds stepped foot in a courthouse and faced a judge?
Who is the victim of a Barry Bonds transgression or infraction?
Where is the evidence that the CSI has collected and is now under analysis?
Once you can answer any of those questions, then come holla at me about Bonds being a criminal. Until then he is only guilty in the court of public opinion which the last time I checked is just that public opinion.