An Offense Built Around Hawes

[Kingster]

The sooner, the better. If Petrie drafts someone or trades for someone, he should be thinking how that player complements Hawes. If Theus thinks about tinkering with his offense, he better think about the hub of the wheel before he thinks about the spokes. HAWES is the guy who makes players better on the floor. Nobody else on this team has the potential to come close to Hawes in that regard in my opinion. Not Beno, Miller, Martin, Garcia, you name it. He's the Anit-Artest, Anti-Salmons - those guys who make players worse on the offensive end because of their inability or disinterest in passing the ball or make plays for others. I saw a center last night who penetrated to the basket and dished off to the power forward. You don't see that everyday...Personally, I'm sick of hearing about his rebounding deficiencies at age 19. Big freaking deal. He's not going to be a Rodman. So what? Go out and get a complementary superior rebounder/defender who has an OK offensive game. Hawes will make his offensive game much better, and he, whoever he is will help out rebounding. How many centers are rebounding juggernaughts anyway? Petrie lucked out. He was hoping for someone else at #10. WE lucked out bigtime.

 

[keflanag]

The sooner, the better. If Petrie drafts someone or trades for someone, he should be thinking how that player complements Hawes. If Theus thinks about tinkering with his offense, he better think about the hub of the wheel before he thinks about the spokes. HAWES is the guy who makes players better on the floor. Nobody else on this team has the potential to come close to Hawes in that regard in my opinion. Not Beno, Miller, Martin, Garcia, you name it. He's the Anit-Artest, Anti-Salmons - those guys who make players worse on the offensive end because of their inability or disinterest in passing the ball or make plays for others. I saw a center last night who penetrated to the basket and dished off to the power forward. You don't see that everyday...Personally, I'm sick of hearing about his rebounding deficiencies at age 19. Big freaking deal. He's not going to be a Rodman. So what? Go out and get a complementary superior rebounder/defender who has an OK offensive game. Hawes will make his offensive game much better, and he, whoever he is will help out rebounding. How many centers are rebounding juggernaughts anyway? Petrie lucked out. He was hoping for someone else at #10. WE lucked out bigtime.

You lost me when you said Miller doesn't have any passing skills.

 

[upinsmoke]

I think its not always a good idea to build around a center unless the guy is a all-star type player. I like hawes but I dont think he is at a point where this is the answer.

 

[creAtivetfh]

i'd probably let him get another year under his belt and who knows maybe miller won't be back next season and hawes will become the starter.

 

[Bricklayer]

Now this is premature, to say the least.

Kid has offensive talent. And its not really the penetrating or lazy jumpshots that are special, but the post moves (which alas he does not finish as often as he should at this point). But he is also operating in the shadows. Nobody is ready for him or gameplanned for him yet. When they do...well, that's one of the things that we should find out if we clear the minutes for him. But until we do, building an offense around him or whatever is..well, its obviously not going to happen.

As for the rebounding/defense, the attempts to sweep it under the rug because it doesn't conveniently fit into a hero/savior profile are ridiculous. Its an issue. Its likely to stay an issue. As has been repeatedly noted before, this whole he's too young to rebound thing is bunk. Good rebounders rebound no matter what their age. Age did not prevent Oden from rebounding, because he's a natural. Kevin Love is a natural. Spenser is not. But with the offensive skills, its likely a problem you live with as long as its not too extreme. If he averages 6 in 35 minutes, then you've got a major issue and maybe a skinny Eddie Curry or Nenad Krstic. If its 8, its a weakness, but reasonable enough that you can cover it. Time will tell.

 

[Entity]

A perfect case for a guy like Justin Williams. Hawes needs a hyper active rebounder and shot blocker along side of him. He needs to be able to clean up on offense and have at least knowledge of the offense (this is where Justin lacked). Spencer and the Kings will never flourish with another weak rebounder beside him i.e. Mikki Moore. Spencer needs a Ben Wallace 14 reb 4 blks a night type guy and if he score 6 or 8 points thats great but, who cares.

 

[venom_7]

A perfect case for a guy like Justin Williams. Hawes needs a hyper active rebounder and shot blocker along side of him. He needs to be able to clean up on offense and have at least knowledge of the offense (this is where Justin lacked). Spencer and the Kings will never flourish with another weak rebounder beside him i.e. Mikki Moore. Spencer needs a Ben Wallace 14 reb 4 blks a night type guy and if he score 6 or 8 points thats great but, who cares.

We've been saying that about Brad for 4 years now and the best the front office came up with was Mikki Moore. So I think it will remain a problem until someone wakes up.

 

[tyrant]

actually brick i think he's right. spencer is definately someone we can build around. you said he needs to be a better rebounder. he can afford to get a little better, but he's right where he needs to be. and to be fair i pulled some information. spencer has played 15 games this season where he has gotten 20 or more minutes. when he's played 20-29 minutes he's averaged 5 boards a game. when he plays starter minutes (in which most of us would consider over 30) he averages 7.8 boards a game. so 8. 8 rebounds a game when he plays starter minutes. thats pretty good. and in playing starter minutes (again over 30 minutes a game) he averages 13.6 a game. 13 and 8 as a rookie when he loggs 30 minutes or more. that sounds like a future all-star to me

 

[Kingster]

You lost me when you said Miller doesn't have any passing skills.

Hmmm. Read it again. I didn't say that.

 

[Kingster]

Now this is premature, to say the least.

Kid has offensive talent. And its not really the penetrating or lazy jumpshots that are special, but the post moves (which alas he does not finish as often as he should at this point). But he is also operating in the shadows. Nobody is ready for him or gameplanned for him yet. When they do...well, that's one of the things that we should find out if we clear the minutes for him. But until we do, building an offense around him or whatever is..well, its obviously not going to happen.

As for the rebounding/defense, the attempts to sweep it under the rug because it doesn't conveniently fit into a hero/savior profile are ridiculous. Its an issue. Its likely to stay an issue. As has been repeatedly noted before, this whole he's too young to rebound thing is bunk. Good rebounders rebound no matter what their age. Age did not prevent Oden from rebounding, because he's a natural. Kevin Love is a natural. Spenser is not. But with the offensive skills, its likely a problem you live with as long as its not too extreme. If he averages 6 in 35 minutes, then you've got a major issue and maybe a skinny Eddie Curry or Nenad Krstic. If its 8, its a weakness, but reasonable enough that you can cover it. Time will tell.

Give me a break. So you want a composite of Oden and Hawes. Personally, I'd like to have a mixture of the best possible combination of Shaq/Jabbar/Russell/Wilt/Walton/Oden and Hawes. He would be pretty good. But we can't live in a dream world, can we? So we have what appears to be a GREAT offensive center, and you want to sob about how he can't rebound like Oden. I'm content to focus on what he can bring to the table, and at this point I think a blind man can see it's very good: hook shots with either hand, great passing (better than Miller - Hawes, unlike Miller, can do it on the move), outside shooting to 3 point range, hitting jump shots off screens, great court awareness. The next thing you're going to tell me (like we heard during the summer) is how he should do all his shooting inside, instead of use all the gifts he has and be an inside AND outside center. Start thinking outside the box and count your lucky stars we have the guy.

 

[John Galt]

When I first saw this title I checked the date because I thought it must be an April Fools joke.

Nope. Spencer Hawes, cornerstone of the retooled Kings offense. For real.

allllrighteythen!!!!

 

[Bricklayer]

Give me a break. So you want a composite of Oden and Hawes. Personally, I'd like to have a mixture of the best possible combination of Shaq/Jabbar/Russell/Wilt/Walton/Oden and Hawes. He would be pretty good. But we can't live in a dream world, can we? So we have what appears to be a GREAT offensive center, and you want to sob about how he can't rebound like Oden. I'm content to focus on what he can bring to the table, and at this point I think a blind man can see it's very good: hook shots with either hand, great passing (better than Miller - Hawes, unlike Miller, can do it on the move), outside shooting to 3 point range, hitting jump shots off screens, great court awareness. The next thing you're going to tell me (like we heard during the summer) is how he should do all his shooting inside, instead of use all the gifts he has and be an inside AND outside center. Start thinking outside the box and count your lucky stars we have the guy.

Look, you're obviously a fanboy of his. That's a perjorative, but also handy shorthand for an enthusiastic see no evil type of player fan. And that's fine -- seems every player develops their own. But I am getting tired of these primitive attempts to distort for whatever the agenda is of the moment.

I didn't say I wanted an Oden/Hawes composite -- YOU said I said that. I merely pointed out the fact that rebounders rebound, and your age excuse is just that -- an excuse. You didn't like the focus being taken off the traits you want to promote for those you would like to ignore, and so bam, distort away. Its silly. You were the one who intorduced the rebounding issue into what could have been just an over the top proposal about Spenser's offense. So, deal. Tyrant did the more rational job of trying to address that issue, and we will see. This is the time of year when every kid's numbers look great, the time when last year Justin Williams, now out of the league, was racking up big numbers. So we will see. (and of course the normal factor with short minute guys that the only time they get the big minutes is when they are playing well, so of course their big minute games look good). I have no doubt Spencer can score, but can he rebound, night in an night out, as a starter, over the course of a full season?

And yes, while I am busy sobbing about his rebounding, you can be busy off chasing championship rainbows with your non-rebounding non-defending center. Been oh so many of those let me tell you. On the plus side Kareem managed to do it in his aging days in the 80s. So just as soon as Hawes is as good as Kareem and we acquire a Magic Johnson and James Worthy to team with him, we are set.

And BTW "great offensive center" is always synonymous with "great post player", in particular in a player who does not look to be your anchor on the other end of the court. This is why they are referred to as "centers" as opposed to guards. Be one thing if he did not have any talent down there. But he does. What he lacks is shot selection and dedication. You are desperate to talk him into being great? Fine. At least recognize where that potential lies. Not as Brian Cook. As Kevin McHale.

 

[BMiller52]

Look, you're obviously a fanboy of his. That's a perjorative, but also handy shorthand for an enthusiastic see no evil type of player fan. And that's fine -- seems every player develops their own. But I am getting tired of these primitive attempts to distort for whatever the agenda is of the moment.

I didn't say I wanted an Oden/Hawes composite -- YOU said I said that. I merely pointed out the fact that rebounders rebound, and your age excuse is just that -- an excuse. You didn't like the focus being taken off the traits you want to promote for those you would like to ignore, and so bam, distort away. Its silly. You were the one who intorduced the rebounding issue into what could have been just an over the top proposal about Spenser's offense. So, deal. Tyrant did the more rational job of trying to address that issue, and we will see. This is the time of year when every kid's numbers look great, the time when last year Justin Williams, now out of the league, was racking up big numbers. So we will see. (and of course the normal factor with short minute guys that the only time they get the big minutes is when they are playing well, so of course their big minute games look good). I have no doubt Spencer can score, but can he rebound, night in an night out, as a starter, over the course of a full season?

And yes, while I am busy sobbing about his rebounding, you can be busy off chasing championship rainbows with your non-rebounding non-defending center. Been oh so many of those let me tell you. On the plus side Kareem managed to do it in his aging days in the 80s. So just as soon as Hawes is as good as Kareem and we acquire a Magic Johnson and James Worthy to team with him, we are set.

And BTW "great offensive center" is always synonymous with "great post player", in particular in a player who does not look to be your anchor on the other end of the court. This is why they are referred to as "centers" as opposed to guards. Be one thing if he did not have any talent down there. But he does. What he lacks is shot selection and dedication. You are desperate to talk him into being great? Fine. At least recognize where that potential lies. Not as Brian Cook. As Kevin McHale.

Yeah I think for him to be great he really does need to keep playing in the post. Don't get me wrong he can still pick&pop sometimes and take fadeaway J's but I don't really think I like the 3 point attempts. His real talent is his post game. There are tons of players in the league who can hit jumpers, and that really doesn't make you special if you have a good jumpshot because that's what you have guards for. However there aren't too many players with his post game, and he is going to be able to get to the foul line a lot also when he puts on muscle and gains experience(+respect from the refs). If he can draw fouls on guys like Amare and Dwight and Duncan, that will help him because if those guys aren't in the game he doesn't have to defend them. Not to mention that a 6 or 7 foot shot is more of a reliable shot than a 17 or 18 foot shot.

 

[tyrant]

spencers development will depend on theus. benching spencer next year wont do anything but provoke my infuriation. he has skills and needs to be out there. sadly we didnt dive deep enough to the 1st top 5 picks. but hey, the 1st 5 picks arent all that sometimes. but realizing you've passed up on players like monte ellis would make anyone go bonkers. we cannot get the job done with poor players in the post. mikki moore's commercial "where to be continued happens". positioning himself from the worst power forward in the western conference to the worst player in all 90 commercials.

 

[fnordius]

I thought this a kind of interesting subject, as I hadn't yet speculated on our rookie's potential AS status, or lack thereof.

So I took a look at his stats, absolute and per 40, and compared them to the rookie stats of 15 recent AS bigs, with emphasis on the centers. I looked at: Rasheed Wallace, JO, Bosh, Amare, ZI, Boozer, SAR, Shaq, Brad, Okur, Ratliff, David Robinson, Duncan, Mutombo and Mourning. Because Hawes' minutes are lower than were those of almost everyone else in the sampling, I ended up having to ignore the absolute numbers and focus on per-40 stats.

Conclusion: Based on what little we have to go on, he is definitely closest to Okur, and not too far from being a poor man's Brad Miller. His rookie numbers aren't much like those of any traditional center on this list. Among non-AS, he is also pretty close to Raef LaFrentz as a rookie.

-----------pts/40--------reb/40------blk/40-----FG%
Miller------20.5----------10.1---------1.65------56.5
LaFrentz-17.1-----------9.4----------1.7-------45.7
Hawes----14.6-----------9.9----------1.5-------46.9
Okur-------14.5-----------9.9----------1.1-------47.5

Ranking per 40 minutes, out of 16 players
points: 14th
rebounds: 12/13th (tie)
blocks: 12th
FG%: 12th

So there you have it folks, if rookie numbers mean much (uncertain), and if he's going to be an AS (likewise), we've got the next Okur on our hands. Hope you have a grain of salt handy.
---
EDIT: An afterthought -- Vlade! No, their rookie numbers aren't very similar, Vlade's are somewhat better, and more like a traditional center's.
Divac: 17.1 pts/40, 12.7 reb/40, 2.8 blk/40, 49.9 FG%

Additional afterthought:
Comparisons to HOFer type centers is a really bad idea. Examples of rookie year per-40 stats for some of those:
Wilt: 32.4 pts, 23.3 reb, 4-6 blocks (not recorded in those days), 46.1 FG%
Kareem: 26.7 pts, 13.5 reb, 3-5 blk (see above), 51.8 FG%
Russell: 16.7 pts, 22.3 reb, 3-5 blk, 42.7 FG%
D.Robinson: 24.3 pts, 12.0 reb, 3.9 blk, 53.1 FG%
Shaq: 23.4 pts, 13.9 reb, 3.5 blk, 56.2 FG%

You don't wanna go there.

 

[tyrant]

remind you all that this is his rookie season. thank you and goodnight

 

[ESP47]

If next year is another throw away rebuilding season, I'd like to see Hawes and Sheldon starting at the 4 and 5 depending on what happens in the draft. They just make a more exciting pair because they have a lot of potential and we really don't know what to expect. Sheldon's D is pretty good, he just needs some good coaching so he doesn't get caught out of place so much. Spencer's O is pretty good and could somewhat equalize his D if he can shoot at a 50%+ clip from the field at 15ppg.

Really I'd like to see Beno, Kevin, Salmons, Williams and Spencer starting. I think that could be an exciting team to watch. They might not win a bunch of games but at least we'll have fun watching them while we rebuild.

 

[tyrant]

If next year is another throw away rebuilding season, I'd like to see Hawes and Sheldon starting at the 4 and 5 depending on what happens in the draft. They just make a more exciting pair because they have a lot of potential and we really don't know what to expect. Sheldon's D is pretty good, he just needs some good coaching so he doesn't get caught out of place so much. Spencer's O is pretty good and could somewhat equalize his D if he can shoot at a 50%+ clip from the field at 15ppg.

Really I'd like to see Beno, Kevin, Salmons, Williams and Spencer starting. I think that could be an exciting team to watch. They might not win a bunch of games but at least we'll have fun watching them while we rebuild.

if getting routed is your definition of fun i would hate to see your definition of boring. you cant start 2 big men that have 0 experience in the post. and we'd be rebuilding til the bricks lean over like the leaning tower of pisa

 

[Warhawk]

if getting routed is your definition of fun i would hate to see your definition of boring. you cant start 2 big men that have 0 experience in the post. and we'd be rebuilding til the brinks lean over like the leaning tower of pisa

Because lots of PT really hampers development, doesn't it? Yeah, we got a couple young guys that are about 7-ft tall. Lets not play them in the hopes that they improve in a year or two....

 

[tyrant]

Because lots of PT really hampers development, doesn't it? Yeah, we got a couple young guys that are about 7-ft tall. Lets not play them in the hopes that they improve in a year or two....

what is your point? mines is that you cant start 2 rookies in the post. williams isnt a rookie but he hasnt got any real minutes. they'd be as helpless as a head caught in a tshirt. i would rather spencer start by playing along someone who's had NBA experience. a mentor

 

[Warhawk]

what is your point? mines is that you cant start 2 rookies in the post. williams isnt a rookie but he hasnt got any real minutes. they'd be as helpless as a head caught in a tshirt. i would rather spencer start by playing along someone who's had NBA experience. a mentor

My point is that Hawes already has a year with Miller to learn and is statistically playing decent ball already. This is William's 2nd year, next year will be 3, and he has been improving after getting some PT. Instead of worrying about mentoring by a player in practice, why don't you consider them learning more on the job with serious PT (starters minutes) and maybe a big-man coach for some mentoring? Nothing replaces real PT to help players learn, and that is what these two need more than anything. Who gives a rip about next year? It's the year after I'd like to see us really start moving forward, when these guys have had some serious time to gel as a team and learned to play better together.

Edit - and I am not discounting the importance of mentoring, but these guys have 1-2 years of experience with "mentors" already and have some skills, especially Hawes. I'd like him to become a little less like Miller and spend more time in the post, anyways. He's got passing skills and blocks like Miller already. He's a decent shooter. At a certain point the guy needs more PT, not more bench time.

 

[Bricklayer]

Portland is going to be starting a rookie and a 3rd year guy on their frontline next year. You can do it. It is done. There are no rules about it. Thsi may amaze some of our younger posters, but once upon a time when guys stayed in college 4 years, almost every top pick ended up starting his rookie year. They survived somehow. The kids learned. Got better. And then a few years down the line were ready to win.

 

[ESP47]

It's just the same story as always. We know we're gonna suck next year, so why not develop while we have no shot at the playoffs? It's a great idea but I don't think Theus would do it unless he got the ok from management. He still has to do what he can to keep his job which can prevent the youngsters development for a few more wins.

 

[fnordius]

I like mentors, Mikki could be our "good attitude" mentor. I don't think that would require starting, though.

I'd be in favor of giving Williams more minutes, assuming he's around next year. He doesn't really impress me so far, but he's no worse than Moore, and, unlike Moore, he might get better.

Mikki Moore versus Shelden Williams

...............pts/40...reb/40...ast/40...stl/40...blk/40...TO/40...FG%...PER...Roland Rating
Moore.......11.8......8.3........1.4.......0.6......0.8........1.9......57.7....11.66....-2.4
Williams....16.4....10.6........0.9.......0.7......1.2........2.1......49.5....14.57....-2.5

 

[Showtime]

While I don't agree with everything the OP said, I do agree that the offense should start with Hawes and go inside out. The high post offense is great for ball movement and team chemistry, but a low block presense also opens up the lanes for penetration and the outside shot off of doulbe teams, ala shaq teams. Hawes has the potential to be a big time scoring threat, so I think they need to work him into the offense way more.

 

[vfettke]

Spencer is but a piece of the puzzle. Yes, the offense can and should run through him on a number of plays ala Miller or Divac. However, with Beno here it doesn't have to. Our offense does not need to run through our center. It did for years and years because our point guard was not a typical pass first point guard. Beno really is. Essentially, the Kings are in a good position to have the point run at the 1 and the 5 spots. Spence will definitely be able to make plays in a few years as he progresses, Beno can now. The offense really should not run through Hawes all the time. Some of the time? Yes. But after he develops further.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Said it before, will say it again: Hire Vlade as big man coach/European scout.

 

[vfettke]

Said it before, will say it again: Hire Vlade as big man coach/European scout.

you're not the only one who feels that way. if Andrew Bynum gets Kareem, then why shouldn't Hawes get Vlade?

 

[VF21]

Because Vlade is very happy doing what he's doing...

 

[fnordius]

From what Vlade's said, he has no actual job responsibilities, he's basically just collecting a paycheck to have his name associated with the team.

Sounds like a dream job to me!