4 Guard Rotation?

[twslam07]

Now with the addition of Brooks to our roster, we have a 4 guard rotation. There are not enough minutes to go around between these 4. I don't see how Petrie thinks this can work unless he expects Evans to spend time at SF again. He must have another deal in the works to send one of them out.

Part of the problem is that we willingly create logjams on this team. How much is enough? We need to balance out our roster as soon as we can.

In an ideal world, we swing a package for Iguodala. It's possible that they would be interested in Thornton. They have been looking for a 20 ppg type player who can take the last shot for them. They have Holiday, Turner, N Young, and Wright who can play on the pereimeter as of now. Turner and N Young can both play SG and SF which means Thornton would be able to find a spot in that rotation. Having a 5 player rotation on the perimeter is ideal, and they will have a very strong and deep rotation. In the meantime, they shed Iguodala's contract and get some cap relief.

Although I still think it is possible, I don't think the Maloofs will be up for taking on his contract now that we have spent most of our remaining budget. I think it might be beneficial to trade one of our guards for a 1st round pick. We might have to package our guard with additional pieces to get it done though. If we are able to get a 1st rounder for next year and we make the lottery once again, we will have two 1st round picks next year. I've noticed on some of the draft sites that there are many athletic shotblocking bigs next year (Noel, Adams, McAdoo, Mitchell, Gobert, Brown, Len, and Christmas). It's possible that we can trade our two picks to move up and grab one of the top guys in this group. This will immediately fix our rim protector problem and just leaves us with the gaping hole at SF.

If we do end up drafting one of these top shotblockers next year, then I would like to see either Thompson or Robinson traded depending on how each of them perform this season. We could trade one of them for a SF and hopefully solidify ourselves there.

Next offseason Garcia comes off the books, and Salmons has one guaranteed year left on his contract and could be a realistic amnesty option. If we do all this, we could be on our way to a balanced roster.

Brooks/Fredette
Evans/Thornton
Starting SF/Johnson/Outlaw/Honeycutt
Robinson/Hayes
Cousins/Shotblocking Rookie

 

[Section 101]

Wasnt a problem with Bibby, Bjax, Chirstie + Jimmy Jackson/Peeler.

or Christie, JWill, BJax, Barry and Anderson or Delk.

 

[mac]

Now with the addition of Brooks to our roster, we have a 4 guard rotation. There are not enough minutes to go around between these 4. I don't see how Petrie thinks this can work unless he expects Evans to spend time at SF again. He must have another deal in the works to send one of them out.

Part of the problem is that we willingly create logjams on this team. How much is enough? We need to balance out our roster as soon as we can.

In an ideal world, we swing a package for Iguodala. It's possible that they would be interested in Thornton. They have been looking for a 20 ppg type player who can take the last shot for them. They have Holiday, Turner, N Young, and Wright who can play on the pereimeter as of now. Turner and N Young can both play SG and SF which means Thornton would be able to find a spot in that rotation. Having a 5 player rotation on the perimeter is ideal, and they will have a very strong and deep rotation. In the meantime, they shed Iguodala's contract and get some cap relief.

Although I still think it is possible, I don't think the Maloofs will be up for taking on his contract now that we have spent most of our remaining budget. I think it might be beneficial to trade one of our guards for a 1st round pick. We might have to package our guard with additional pieces to get it done though. If we are able to get a 1st rounder for next year and we make the lottery once again, we will have two 1st round picks next year. I've noticed on some of the draft sites that there are many athletic shotblocking bigs next year (Noel, Adams, McAdoo, Mitchell, Gobert, Brown, Len, and Christmas). It's possible that we can trade our two picks to move up and grab one of the top guys in this group. This will immediately fix our rim protector problem and just leaves us with the gaping hole at SF.

If we do end up drafting one of these top shotblockers next year, then I would like to see either Thompson or Robinson traded depending on how each of them perform this season. We could trade one of them for a SF and hopefully solidify ourselves there.

Next offseason Garcia comes off the books, and Salmons has one guaranteed year left on his contract and could be a realistic amnesty option. If we do all this, we could be on our way to a balanced roster.

Brooks/Fredette
Evans/Thornton
Starting SF/Johnson/Outlaw/Honeycutt
Robinson/Hayes
Cousins/Shotblocking Rookie

Do you really want Fredette to be our fulltime back up PG after seeing him in SL?

 

[twslam07]

Wasnt a problem with Bibby, Bjax, Chirstie + Jimmy Jackson/Peeler.

or Christie, JWill, BJax, Barry and Anderson or Delk.

I would say these are 3 guard rotations with a 4th guard getting spot minutes. In this case we would have 4 guards requiring substantial, consistent minutes. That is the problem I see with this rotation.

 

[twslam07]

Do you really want Fredette to be our fulltime back up PG after seeing him in SL?

Well Evans is more than capable of sliding over and taking the backup PG minutes, but anyways I wouldn't consider a 4th guard a full time backup. He is on your roster for spot minutes, injuries, blowouts, etc. He wouldn't be seeing much time at all. If you give Evans 37 minutes a game, Thornton 32 minutes a game, and Brooks 25 minutes a game you have 94/96 total guard minutes taken. I would be perfectly okay with Jimmer being out there for 2 minutes as I'm sure most people would.

Now this lineup that I have presented is a year in advance. It's more than likely that we could pick up a better, safer backup PG, but as long as Brooks or Evans is on the floor, you shouldn't need to worry about Fredette handling the PG duties.

 

[swisshh]

4 guard rotation is not a problem and never was, especially with the league as it is now.

 

[Bricklayer]

4 guard rotation is not a problem and never was, especially with the league as it is now.

4 guard rotations aren't used by anybody unless they don't have any good guards, unless you mean backup guards getting 15min a night.

now 3 guards with a spot 4th? sure. That's not our situation. We have 4 guards who have for stretches of their recent careers averaged 30+ min a game. There's not a one of them that would accept less than 20min/game. Several that would rightfully feel butt hurt at less than 30 min/gm. The math of a 4 guard rotation is not complex.

48 Min PG
48 Min SG
So your guards average 24, 24, 24, 24 min. or they average 30, 18, 30, 18. Or 34, 14, 32, 16.

I think Reke is going to be age 22, Isiah 23/24, Thornton 24, Brooks 26. Reke, Isaiah and Brooks will all be playing for contracts. Good teams, really good teams, don't do this to themselves. Everybody knows their role on the good ones. Everybody has to fight our stupidity on this one.

 

[Krunker]

Well, Smart did say he was thinking of a 10-12 player rotation

 

[Bricklayer]

Well, Smart did say he was thinking of a 10-12 player rotation

Sigh. Smart is a misnomer if ever I heard one.

 

[mac]

Well Evans is more than capable of sliding over and taking the backup PG minutes, but anyways I wouldn't consider a 4th guard a full time backup. He is on your roster for spot minutes, injuries, blowouts, etc. He wouldn't be seeing much time at all. If you give Evans 37 minutes a game, Thornton 32 minutes a game, and Brooks 25 minutes a game you have 94/96 total guard minutes taken. I would be perfectly okay with Jimmer being out there for 2 minutes as I'm sure most people would.

Now this lineup that I have presented is a year in advance. It's more than likely that we could pick up a better, safer backup PG, but as long as Brooks or Evans is on the floor, you shouldn't need to worry about Fredette handling the PG duties.

Fair enough, but then you have a problem where you're going to have fairly long stretches where you have both Brooks and MT on the floor. Believe me it isn't going to work well for us. Both will be fighting over the ball instead of playing D. Even with Jimmer playing spot minutes you'll have a very very undersized guard line up. Guess that can't be avoided when 3 out of your 4 guards are tiny.

 

[ParniValjak]

4 guard rotations aren't used by anybody unless they don't have any good guards, unless you mean backup guards getting 15min a night.

now 3 guards with a spot 4th? sure. That's not our situation. We have 4 guards who have for stretches of their recent careers averaged 30+ min a game. There's not a one of them that would accept less than 20min/game. Several that would rightfully feel butt hurt at less than 30 min/gm. The math of a 4 guard rotation is not complex.

48 Min PG
48 Min SG
So your guards average 24, 24, 24, 24 min. or they average 30, 18, 30, 18. Or 34, 14, 32, 16.

I think Reke is going to be age 22, Isiah 23/24, Thornton 24, Brooks 26. Reke, Isaiah and Brooks will all be playing for contracts. Good teams, really good teams, don't do this to themselves. Everybody knows their role on the good ones. Everybody has to fight our stupidity on this one.

Could not have said it better myself. It just makes no sense to do what we did unless of course Smart is gushing at possibilities of playing 5 guard lines up. I am calling early, expect to see the following line up at times next season

PG - Thomas
SG - Brooks
SF - Jimmer
PF - Thornton
C - Evans

Oh the joy!

 

[Section 101]

4 guard rotations aren't used by anybody unless they don't have any good guards, unless you mean backup guards getting 15min a night.

now 3 guards with a spot 4th? sure. That's not our situation. We have 4 guards who have for stretches of their recent careers averaged 30+ min a game. There's not a one of them that would accept less than 20min/game. Several that would rightfully feel butt hurt at less than 30 min/gm. The math of a 4 guard rotation is not complex.

48 Min PG
48 Min SG
So your guards average 24, 24, 24, 24 min. or they average 30, 18, 30, 18. Or 34, 14, 32, 16.

I think Reke is going to be age 22, Isiah 23/24, Thornton 24, Brooks 26. Reke, Isaiah and Brooks will all be playing for contracts. Good teams, really good teams, don't do this to themselves. Everybody knows their role on the good ones. Everybody has to fight our stupidity on this one.

When Evans and MT can make it through an 82 game schedule then maybe there is an issue.

OKC doesn't have a problem with a 4 guard rotation.

 

[twslam07]

When Evans and MT can make it through an 82 game schedule then maybe there is an issue.

OKC doesn't have a problem with a 4 guard rotation.

Sefolosha and Harden are able to take on some of the SF minutes, and with Westbrooks height and athleticism, he is able to guard SGs. So they can trot out a lineup of Fisher, Westbrook, Sefolosha, Ibaka, Perkins and still be okay. We could do the same thing with Evans at SF, but I would rather we not because that would mean we have two out of Brooks, Thomas, and Thornton playing alongside each other which isn't ideal from a defensive perspective.

 

[twslam07]

Fair enough, but then you have a problem where you're going to have fairly long stretches where you have both Brooks and MT on the floor. Believe me it isn't going to work well for us. Both will be fighting over the ball instead of playing D. Even with Jimmer playing spot minutes you'll have a very very undersized guard line up. Guess that can't be avoided when 3 out of your 4 guards are tiny.

I wouldn't say "long" stretches I would just say stretches. If Evans averages 37 minutes a night, we're talking about 11 minutes a game. If those 11 minutes are against a second unit, their lack of defense will be hidden to a degree.

 

[Bricklayer]

When Evans and MT can make it through an 82 game schedule then maybe there is an issue.

OKC doesn't have a problem with a 4 guard rotation.

OKC has two starters and two backups. Or more properly 30+min two stars and two 20min roleplayers. One of the roleplayers is also a full 6'7" and can legitimately swing to SF.

Almost every team is in fact going to play 4 guards at one point or another during the game. That's not our problem. Our problem is we basically have 4 STARTING guards, with that expectation. Who's going to be satisifed with being Derek Fisher or Thabo Sefalosha out of our crew? Everybody wants minutes and starts, everbody needs shots.

 

[kupman]

When we were fully staffed, Bobby Jackson averaged around 21-22 minutes per game. Why should we expect IT, Brooks or MT to need more minutes than Bobby Jackson?

 

[Kingster]

4 guard rotations aren't used by anybody unless they don't have any good guards, unless you mean backup guards getting 15min a night.

now 3 guards with a spot 4th? sure. That's not our situation. We have 4 guards who have for stretches of their recent careers averaged 30+ min a game. There's not a one of them that would accept less than 20min/game. Several that would rightfully feel butt hurt at less than 30 min/gm. The math of a 4 guard rotation is not complex.

48 Min PG
48 Min SG
So your guards average 24, 24, 24, 24 min. or they average 30, 18, 30, 18. Or 34, 14, 32, 16.

I think Reke is going to be age 22, Isiah 23/24, Thornton 24, Brooks 26. Reke, Isaiah and Brooks will all be playing for contracts. Good teams, really good teams, don't do this to themselves. Everybody knows their role on the good ones. Everybody has to fight our stupidity on this one.

I can see the +/- 30-18 minute duo working for IT and Brooks, or Brooks and IT, whichever way you want to look at it. They would both be able to play full tilt over the course of the season with those minutes. I don't think either one of them could play close to 40 minutes a game without getting worn down. At least with IT I don't see a problem with his attitude in getting 18 minutes, if that's what he gets. On the other hand, coming off the bench might not really suit his game. After all, he did play a lot better last year when he started. Also, I'm much more comfortable knowing that IT can run a pick and roll with Cousins and Robinson, not so much with Brooks. With Brooks I just don't know.

I can't see Tyreke getting 40 minutes at the 2 guard, unless he comes into camp in better shape than his rookie year, but it makes no sense for him to get a lot less minutes with two smaller point guards. I also don't think Thornton would be amenable to lower minutes off he bench. So there's the rub: Thornton/Tyreke.

 

[mac]

I can see the +/- 30-18 minute duo working for IT and Brooks, or Brooks and IT, whichever way you want to look at it. They would both be able to play full tilt over the course of the season with those minutes. I don't think either one of them could play close to 40 minutes a game without getting worn down. At least with IT I don't see a problem with his attitude in getting 18 minutes, if that's what he gets. On the other hand, coming off the bench might not really suit his game. After all, he did play a lot better last year when he started. Also, I'm much more comfortable knowing that IT can run a pick and roll with Cousins and Robinson, not so much with Brooks. With Brooks I just don't know.

I can't see Tyreke getting 40 minutes at the 2 guard, unless he comes into camp in better shape than his rookie year, but it makes no sense for him to get a lot less minutes with two smaller point guards. I also don't think Thornton would be amenable to lower minutes off he bench. So there's the rub: Thornton/Tyreke.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that IT can run pick and rolls with Cousins and Robinson. I hardly saw any pick and rolls with Cousins last season, and from what I see in the summer league Robinson doesn't set very good screens. I did see a lot of pick and pops between IT and Cuz, but from my memory pick and rolls were run far more often with JT than any of other bigs.

 

[rainmaker]

When Evans and MT can make it through an 82 game schedule then maybe there is an issue.

OKC doesn't have a problem with a 4 guard rotation.

Huh?

Sefalosha is a clear defensive role player who doesn't care if he gets more than 5 shots. Fisher gets decent mins, but is restricted mainly to spot up duty.

Westbrook and Harden are the clear 1 and 2 options in the OKC backcourt and are not competing with the other two for shots. Two guys in OKC's backcourt are clear role players. Just which two of IT/Brooks/MT/Reke are going to be the role players who don't care if they get more than 5 shots?

 

[andjel]

Huh?

Sefalosha is a clear defensive role player who doesn't care if he gets more than 5 shots. Fisher gets decent mins, but is restricted mainly to spot up duty.

Westbrook and Harden are the clear 1 and 2 options in the OKC backcourt and are not competing with the other two for shots. Two guys in OKC's backcourt are clear role players. Just which two of IT/Brooks/MT/Reke are going to be the role players who don't care if they get more than 5 shots?

Though I agree with the reasoning and think one of IT/MT/Brooks should be traded if possible (but not at all costs), let me play the devils advocate.

First of all, 3 guards having significant time is not that bad.
Reke is #1, and luckily all 3 other guards fit well with him (offensively they cover his lack of long range), defensively he can cover for them.
As long as Reke gets major minutes and does not play SF things are fine.

MT has good long contract and is the best trade bait so he should have solid minutes to increase his value.

It is left to Brooks and IT to fight it out who will be the 4th guard with leftover minutes.
Competition can bring the best out of them.

Yes, both are expecting starters minutes. Normally it would not be good for chemistry, but both guys do not have contract stability and are fighting for their place in NBA... hence as much of motivation they have to showcase themselves, they also have strong motivation to keep ego under the lid. It is up to a coach to manage that.
Having 4 starter minutes guards teams typically do not have for $$$ reasons too. However, both are paid as third-fourth string of guards, so that is fine as well.

Minute wise, I would prefer something closer to 35,30,25,15.

 

[Sac.1989]

thornton could be traded if this doesnt go down right but at least this move is a catalyst for that. Im willing to give this a shot. Thornton could have issues however i dont see IT being too much of a drama queen regarding this

 

[ParniValjak]

thornton could be traded if this doesnt go down right but at least this move is a catalyst for that. Im willing to give this a shot. Thornton could have issues however i dont see IT being too much of a drama queen regarding this

No doubt Thornton is the best trade bait of the 3 (IT/MT/Brooks) but the problem is, if you trade MT, your backcourt rotation consists of IT-Brooks-Reke which means that there will be decent minutes where where you will simply have to play IT with Brooks which is just a defensive nightmare.

I am still staggered that we managed to create even bigger mess in the backcourt than what we had finishing the season. I just don't get the rationale behind it. None of these guys are role players, they all want their shots and good chunk of minutes to go with it.

 

[Kingster]

I'm not sure where you got the idea that IT can run pick and rolls with Cousins and Robinson. I hardly saw any pick and rolls with Cousins last season, and from what I see in the summer league Robinson doesn't set very good screens. I did see a lot of pick and pops between IT and Cuz, but from my memory pick and rolls were run far more often with JT than any of other bigs.

I did see pick and rolls with Cousins and IT. I'd like to see a lot more. Moreover, there's nothing in Cousins' and Robinsons' games that would preclude them from being excellent in the pick and roll. They can both pick and roll or pick and pop. (Going forward, I want to see Cousins stay with the screen longer to rub off his man.) There's also nothing absent in IT's game that prevents him from being outstanding at the pick and roll. He's excellent passing on the move; he's excellent shooting off the dribble, and he's excellent driving to the basket. FWIW, IT was 4th in pick and roll efficiency in the league last year, per one statistical source. Steve Nash and CP3 and a couple of others I can't recall were ahead of him in that regard.

By the way, I've seen Robinson pick and roll in these summer games and be wide open, but he doesn't get the ball because the guard (Jimmer) doesn't get it to him. No doubt, Robinson has a lot of refining in his game to do, but with his quickness and finishing ability, I think that is a big untapped area of his game going forward.

 

[Sac.1989]

No doubt Thornton is the best trade bait of the 3 (IT/MT/Brooks) but the problem is, if you trade MT, your backcourt rotation consists of IT-Brooks-Reke which means that there will be decent minutes where where you will simply have to play IT with Brooks which is just a defensive nightmare.

Even if we trade IT or Brooks and keep MT the issue is when Reke isnt on the floor our D is going to suck. None are role players, but its all a mentality. Because of where IT was drafted he's prob most in line with coming off the bench. Its all a big experiment though which could work out or could end with trades. I expect a consistently chopping and changing back court in line with who we are up against

 

[Mass]

No doubt Thornton is the best trade bait of the 3 (IT/MT/Brooks) but the problem is, if you trade MT, your backcourt rotation consists of IT-Brooks-Reke which means that there will be decent minutes where where you will simply have to play IT with Brooks which is just a defensive nightmare.

I am still staggered that we managed to create even bigger mess in the backcourt than what we had finishing the season. I just don't get the rationale behind it. None of these guys are role players, they all want their shots and good chunk of minutes to go with it.

If we trade MT, I assume we would use Salmons as Reke's backup. We would have IT and Brooks sharing minutes at PG and Salmons getting 12-15 minutes at SG, which I think is his role. That's why I believe trading MT makes sense, if we could get Iggy for him and one of our scrubs, I'd be a much happier fan.

 

[ParniValjak]

Even if we trade IT or Brooks and keep MT the issue is when Reke isnt on the floor our D is going to suck. None are role players, but its all a mentality. Because of where IT was drafted he's prob most in line with coming off the bench. Its all a big experiment though which could work out or could end with trades. I expect a consistently chopping and changing back court in line with who we are up against

Of the two evils, I take the lesser. I would rather go out with IT/MT or Brooks/MT over IT/Brooks. That combo is just way too tiny. At least MT has some size and bulk, the other 2 are just tiny.

Then again, I would have thought that the very last thing this team needed was another tiny guard but our team goes out and gets one. I am not surprised that we got Brooks knowing the history of Petrie's love for him. Word was that if no bigs were left on the board Petrie would have drafted Brooks back in 2007 (we got Hawes) and he has tried many times since then to trade for him.

If we did not have IT and we were looking for a high octane guard off the bench, I would have been the first to say we should go after Brooks but considering that Evans is a scorer, MT is a scorer and IT also likes to score there really is no need for another high octane scoring guard.

Brooks is a great little scoring spark off the bench for a cheap contract ($3.3 million is cheap) but we really are over stocked with players looking to score, let alone guards looking to score.

 

[mac]

I did see pick and rolls with Cousins and IT. I'd like to see a lot more. Moreover, there's nothing in Cousins' and Robinsons' games that would preclude them from being excellent in the pick and roll. They can both pick and roll or pick and pop. (Going forward, I want to see Cousins stay with the screen longer to rub off his man.) There's also nothing absent in IT's game that prevents him from being outstanding at the pick and roll. He's excellent passing on the move; he's excellent shooting off the dribble, and he's excellent driving to the basket. FWIW, IT was 4th in pick and roll efficiency in the league last year, per one statistical source. Steve Nash and CP3 and a couple of others I can't recall were ahead of him in that regard.

By the way, I've seen Robinson pick and roll in these summer games and be wide open, but he doesn't get the ball because the guard (Jimmer) doesn't get it to him. No doubt, Robinson has a lot of refining in his game to do, but with his quickness and finishing ability, I think that is a big untapped area of his game going forward.

Oh, it's not IT that I doubt - it's Cuz. I don't see him as a very good pick and roll player, because to begin with he hasn't shown the ability to finish around the rim consistently off the catch while moving. Not sure if there's a stat for that, but that's what I recall from watching him. I think Cuz's talents are more as an iso post scorer/ beating his man off the dribble.

 

[Section 101]

Oh, it's not IT that I doubt - it's Cuz. I don't see him as a very good pick and roll player, because to begin with he hasn't shown the ability to finish around the rim consistently off the catch while moving. Not sure if there's a stat for that, but that's what I recall from watching him. I think Cuz's talents are more as an iso post scorer/ beating his man off the dribble.

2nd half of last year he was finishing a lot better. Going for dunks instead of weak stuff.

 

[WALTtheWIZ]

2nd half of last year he was finishing a lot better. Going for dunks instead of weak stuff.

I agree. He does still tend to have a low release point on his shot but he has gotten better at finishing while stationary which was a problem earlier. I actually think he could be a good PnR player....i actually think he has the skill level to be good at just about anything he wants to be, maybe i am being a homer.

 

[GoodOldDouwe]

I believe that using Salmons as a 2 with one of the smaller guards on the court could work out pretty well. I definitely don't want to see a combination of Brooks, Thornton, Isaiah and Jimmer at the same time in the backcourt.

I'd like a five man guard rotation of Isaiah, Tyreke, Thornton, Salmons and Brooks.