Now, about Vasquez...

[kennadog]

Except for the fact that Cousins is never going to see the floor due to constant foul trouble. Vasquez is one of the worst defenders in the NBA right now and our perimeter defense is going to be if not the worst, definitely bottom 3. How is he going to play with Thornton, Thomas or Jimmer? Whose guarding Curry in that scenario? If he is our starting pg, teams are going to be trapping us every night.

I don't think I'd just assume that any one or more of those three players will still be on the team for the next season.

Trades can still be made after the free agency period is over. Cap room would mean we can make trades where we take back more salary than we trade away. While landing a nice free agent would be good, I think Sacramento's more likely to be able to acquire a player they want in a trade, as opposed to signing a free agent. It's pretty obvious that neither Iguodola or Calderon wanted to come to Sacramento.

Maybe we will be a good enough team in the future to have real shot at free agents, but nobody knows what the new regime in Sacramento is like yet. And Sacramento has almost never been a place that attracts free agents. Hopefully, that will change, but its sure not going to happen over night.

 

[hrdboild]

If you ran a car lot and offered to sell me a one year old Mustang for 5k and we shook on it. Then when I came over to give you the cash and get the car you said sorry you just checked the blue book and the deal was off, I might not blame you, but I would never deal with you again and neither would anyone I know.

Well, your analogy not mine -- but what if there were only 30 car dealerships in the world and I had the only Mustang available in the color that you wanted? What would you do then?

 

[HndsmCelt]

Well, your analogy not mine -- but what if there were only 30 car dealerships in the world and I had the only Mustang available in the color that you wanted? What would you do then?

I would learn to live with a Charger and tell everyone there is no point in making deals with you since you have no trouble reneging on your word. OR I would have no qualms about trading in a car with banana peals in the tyranny and moonshine in the gas tank. The point is that when you know someone has no integrity, you can either choose to avoid doing business with them or play their rules, but if you act with integrity you will get screwed every time and you will have no one to blame but your self. Your argument that the limited number of options changes the dynamic is essentially correct. In a tiny pool of only 30 teams when you screw someone over EVERYONE knows it right away, where as if you run a crooked car lot in LA you may never run out of chumps who do not know who they are dealing with.

 

[hrdboild]

I would learn to live with a Charger and tell everyone there is no point in making deals with you since you have no trouble reneging on your word. OR I would have no qualms about trading in a car with banana peals in the tyranny and moonshine in the gas tank. The point is that when you know someone has no integrity, you can either choose to avoid doing business with them or play their rules, but if you act with integrity you will get screwed every time and you will have no one to blame but your self. Your argument that the limited number of options changes the dynamic is essentially correct. In a tiny pool of only 30 teams when you screw someone over EVERYONE knows it right away, where as if you run a crooked car lot in LA you may never run out of chumps who do not know who they are dealing with.

On principle I would agree with you. In fact, I made a comment to that effect regarding the Igoudala contract offer. But I don't see how backing out of a bad deal before it's fully consummated is unethical. If I have second thoughts about getting married and I go through with it anyway, I'm making the situation far worse aren't I? If I realize it's a bad deal and say "sorry, I thought it over and this isn't really the best move for me", you're probably going to be upset about it, but you can't really say I was dishonest to you. Are people going to be less likely to enter into deals with me in the future? Perhaps, but at least I've saved myself the humiliation of looking back and realizing that I screwed up, I knew I screwed up, and I still went through with it. And to reiterate my point before, if you know that you're getting the Mustang you wanted for a whole lot less than anyone else would sell it to you and then I change my mind and raise the price, you've got to at least respect me for not being an idiot. That counts for something.

 

[HndsmCelt]

On principle I would agree with you. In fact, I made a comment to that effect regarding the Igoudala contract offer. But I don't see how backing out of a bad deal before it's fully consummated is unethical. If I have second thoughts about getting married and I go through with it anyway, I'm making the situation far worse aren't I? If I realize it's a bad deal and say "sorry, I thought it over and this isn't really the best move for me", you're probably going to be upset about it, but you can't really say I was dishonest to you. Are people going to be less likely to enter into deals with me in the future? Perhaps, but at least I've saved myself the humiliation of looking back and realizing that I screwed up, I knew I screwed up, and I still went through with it. And to reiterate my point before, if you know that you're getting the Mustang you wanted for a whole lot less than anyone else would sell it to you and then I change my mind and raise the price, you've got to at least respect me for not being an idiot. That counts for something.

For me the key is to clearly define WHEN we are committed. If we come to an agreement and make a verbal or handshake agreement to me that is no different (from an ethical NOT legal perspective) than a written contract. So the people really watch out for are people who don't make a distinction between what is LEGAL and what is ETHICAL. When we made an offer to Iggy IF he had accepted it THEN we would should have honored it, but whenever came to an agreement with him. Marriage of course is a different story. A wise instructor of mine pointed out that Marriage is a sacred institution that needed to be honored and cherished until the divorce papers are filed, then it is just one more contract. But the differences it is that there are no other contracts that are expected to be binding for the rest of our lives. Even Verizon only own us for2 years at a time.

 

[roasthawg]

At the end of the day we're 39-89 with Evans in the lineup the last two years... 11-9 when he doesn't play. I wanted him back as bad as everyone else but I can also see the other side of the coin here. I trust Vivek and co. to get this thing straightened out.

 

[Bricklayer]

At the end of the day we're 39-89 with Evans in the lineup the last two years... 11-9 when he doesn't play. I wanted him back as bad as everyone else but I can also see the other side of the coin here. I trust Vivek and co. to get this thing straightened out.

Over the last two seasons we are 46-93 with Cousins in the lineup, 4-5 when he doesn't play. Let's ship him out too.

Reminds me of the same junk form the Webber era.

 

[mac]

Just had a thought and checked out some stats.

2012-2013 season:
Hornets 21 apg
Kings 20.8 apg

And something I find even more interesting.
Hornets top players (apg)
Vasquez 9.0 in 34.4 mpg (78 games) A/TO - 2.8
Eric Gordon 3.0 in 30.1 mpg (but only played 42 games) A/TO 1.0
Brian Roberts 2.8 in 17.0 mpg (78 games) A/TO 3.0

Out of remaining Hornets players only 6 averaged more than 1 apg with Austin Rivers being the highest at 2.1.

Kings top players (apg)
Isaiah Thomas 4.0 in 26.9mpg A/TO 2.0
Tyreke Evans 3.5 in 31.0 mpg A/TO 1.5
John Salmons 3.0 in 30.0 mpg A/TO 2.7

Of remaining Kings players 10 averaged more than 1 apg, with highest being DMC at 2.7. Note: includes Aaron Brooks and Francisco Garcia

Post all-star Kings averaged 23.0 to Hornets 20.4 apg (pre 19.7 to 21.3).

So I guess what I'm getting at is this. For all the talk of us having poor ball movement we basically averaged the same number of assists as the Hornets did with Vasquez at the helm. There is also a huge drop off in assist numbers after Vasquez, whereas for us it is pretty evenly spread. So question is: are Vasquez's assist numbers inflated because he was the one basically controlling the offense all the time? He's also got a higher A/TO ratio than anyone on our team. I didn't watch the Hornets much so I can't say how their offense was run. However I wonder if we were to replace IT with Vasquez under the same Keith Smart system whether the team's total assists would still be similar.

 

[roasthawg]

Over the last two seasons we are 46-93 with Cousins in the lineup, 4-5 when he doesn't play. Let's ship him out too.

Reminds me of the same junk form the Webber era.

There's no doubt the team struggled when Webber came back back in 2003-04. That's a completely different situation where you have an elite team playing elite basketball and all of a sudden you throw a guy in there for 30min a game and he's handling the ball as much as anyone on the team. Takes awhile to adjust... I mean the Heat didn't really gel until the Finals in year 2. Chemistry doesn't happen overnight in the NBA most of the time.

We have the opposite happening in Sac lately... we're playing bad with our normal unit and better when one of the main cogs is out. 20 games is a small sample for sure... if you're a basketball mind and make millions of dollars a year to make these decisions and you already feel for whatever reason Tyreke is not a great fit here then this 11-9 with him out might just reinforce that in your mind a bit.

If on the otherhand you love the guys game you can just as easily dismiss it as small sample size fluke. I'm not trying to guess one way or another... simply trying to figure out what our fo is looking at here. I believe we're in good, intelligent hands here with this new regime and think they'll be vindicated in the end. I've gone thru so much message board stuff in various sports over the years that you'll have to forgive me if I'm a little biased towards the professionals... Sabean/Bochy were the biggest morons in the sport a few years back on Giants boards, now they're talking about Bochy to the HOF. Harbaugh/Baalke were conducting an initial draft/fa worse than the one Kings fans are watching now when they took over the Niners two years ago... results speak for themselves.

We'll see... easy to predict failure and be right as the majority of the teams in the league will not win or even seriously compete for a title anytime soon. I like this team we've put together though and think they just might surprise everyone in a couple of years here.

 

[roasthawg]

Just had a thought and checked out some stats.

2012-2013 season:
Hornets 21 apg
Kings 20.8 apg

And something I find even more interesting.
Hornets top players (apg)
Vasquez 9.0 in 34.4 mpg (78 games) A/TO - 2.8
Eric Gordon 3.0 in 30.1 mpg (but only played 42 games) A/TO 1.0
Brian Roberts 2.8 in 17.0 mpg (78 games) A/TO 3.0

Out of remaining Hornets players only 6 averaged more than 1 apg with Austin Rivers being the highest at 2.1.

Kings top players (apg)
Isaiah Thomas 4.0 in 26.9mpg A/TO 2.0
Tyreke Evans 3.5 in 31.0 mpg A/TO 1.5
John Salmons 3.0 in 30.0 mpg A/TO 2.7

Of remaining Kings players 10 averaged more than 1 apg, with highest being DMC at 2.7. Note: includes Aaron Brooks and Francisco Garcia

Post all-star Kings averaged 23.0 to Hornets 20.4 apg (pre 19.7 to 21.3).

So I guess what I'm getting at is this. For all the talk of us having poor ball movement we basically averaged the same number of assists as the Hornets did with Vasquez at the helm. There is also a huge drop off in assist numbers after Vasquez, whereas for us it is pretty evenly spread. So question is: are Vasquez's assist numbers inflated because he was the one basically controlling the offense all the time? He's also got a higher A/TO ratio than anyone on our team. I didn't watch the Hornets much so I can't say how their offense was run. However I wonder if we were to replace IT with Vasquez under the same Keith Smart system whether the team's total assists would still be similar.

I think it's more about how we go about getting those assists. Pete d went on record as saying he was looking for a pass first pg... a guy that can run plays and get everyone involved. The Nuggets had a couple of 7+ assist guys in Lawson and Miller... Vasquez can be our Andre Miller, might still be in the market for another pg.

 

[sdballer]

Vasquez reminds me a lot of Andre Miller, they are pass first ball dominant PG's (if that makes sense) who help people around them, who post up and are excellent passers. I'm going to like him sad to see Reke go but change is change accept it and move on.

He actually reminds me of a rich mans Sergio Rodriguez who I think could have carved a better role for himself in the league.

 

[jalfa]

Just had a thought and checked out some stats.

2012-2013 season:
Hornets 21 apg
Kings 20.8 apg

And something I find even more interesting.
Hornets top players (apg)
Vasquez 9.0 in 34.4 mpg (78 games) A/TO - 2.8
Eric Gordon 3.0 in 30.1 mpg (but only played 42 games) A/TO 1.0
Brian Roberts 2.8 in 17.0 mpg (78 games) A/TO 3.0

Out of remaining Hornets players only 6 averaged more than 1 apg with Austin Rivers being the highest at 2.1.

Kings top players (apg)
Isaiah Thomas 4.0 in 26.9mpg A/TO 2.0
Tyreke Evans 3.5 in 31.0 mpg A/TO 1.5
John Salmons 3.0 in 30.0 mpg A/TO 2.7

Of remaining Kings players 10 averaged more than 1 apg, with highest being DMC at 2.7. Note: includes Aaron Brooks and Francisco Garcia

Post all-star Kings averaged 23.0 to Hornets 20.4 apg (pre 19.7 to 21.3).

So I guess what I'm getting at is this. For all the talk of us having poor ball movement we basically averaged the same number of assists as the Hornets did with Vasquez at the helm. There is also a huge drop off in assist numbers after Vasquez, whereas for us it is pretty evenly spread. So question is: are Vasquez's assist numbers inflated because he was the one basically controlling the offense all the time? He's also got a higher A/TO ratio than anyone on our team. I didn't watch the Hornets much so I can't say how their offense was run. However I wonder if we were to replace IT with Vasquez under the same Keith Smart system whether the team's total assists would still be similar.

the latest cowbell kingdom podcast had a Hornets/Pelicans blogger on who talked a bit about Vasquez and his game. one of the things he mentioned was that his assists were helped a lot by NO's system. Brian Roberts, a guy who was the shooting guard on a German team only 2 years ago, had to step into the starting role for 5 games and in that time averaged 10 assists a game. I reiterate: Vasquez will get nowhere near his assist numbers from last year on this team.

 

['89 Kings Fan]

I don't think I'd just assume that any one or more of those three players will still be on the team for the next season.

Trades can still be made after the free agency period is over. Cap room would mean we can make trades where we take back more salary than we trade away. While landing a nice free agent would be good, I think Sacramento's more likely to be able to acquire a player they want in a trade, as opposed to signing a free agent. It's pretty obvious that neither Iguodola or Calderon wanted to come to Sacramento.

I think Kings fans are in for some massive disappointment. The days of getting 2 1sts for absorbing a Kurt Thomas are over. NBA teams are too smart about the cap now. The top 3 luxury tax paying teams are not going to be trading talent: Brooklyn, Miami, Lakers. The only two that might happen is Orlando with Hedo and Boston with Wallace, but I don't see them giving up much to move them.

If we actually move one our guards I will be pleasantly surprised, but considering they all have zero to negative trade value I expect them to be here next season.

 

[LPKingsFan]

The days of getting 2 1sts for absorbing a Kurt Thomas are over.

Didn't the Jazz get two firsts for absorbing the Jefferson, Biedrins, and Rush contracts? More of a pain than just taking on Kurt Thomas, yes, but salary space is still valuable, apparently.

 

['89 Kings Fan]

Didn't the Jazz get two firsts for absorbing the Jefferson, Biedrins, and Rush contracts? More of a pain than just taking on Kurt Thomas, yes, but salary space is still valuable, apparently.

That was the last shot of the offsetting. And that was $20 million for two late firsts. That would be letting Tyreke go for a 25th pick if we could get it.

 

[upinsmoke]

I reiterate: Vasquez will get nowhere near his assist numbers from last year on this team.

I'll keep an eye on that for you. Mostly I'm interested in if he makes Cousins better.

 

[Glenn]

Has anybody actually seen Vasquez play and paid attention? Seems like most of the comments including mine are based on his stats and what has been written. I hope PDA has seen him. In huge generalities it seems like we have a guy who will pass the ball and that opens up what we need in a a SF. We no longer need a SF that can get assists to help cover for Tyreke's short coming. We don't necessarily need a scorer either what with Cousins and McLemore (making an assumption about the latter). We can acquire the best available. Now we need to act. This is frustrating to a guy who is now living in a culture that moves at lightening speed. I hope at least we don't take the Petrie method and let everybody pick and chose and we take what is left over.

I suspect the FO is going to plug the holes with its "sources" as I think all the rumors hurt them. Perhaps we have learned who to ignore and who to pay attention to. Get a great defensive big or a great SF and I will be content about this year. With all the cap money available there is no excuse to fail in this endeavor.

 

[jalfa]

I'll keep an eye on that for you. Mostly I'm interested in if he makes Cousins better.

go ahead, I stand by what I said. you can also point me to any fault in my argumentation, if you feel like it.

 

[theclash4u5]

Oh SacBee...

Weekend poll: Who should start at point guard for the Kings?
Jimmer Fredette
276

38%
Ray McCallum
25

3%
Isaiah Thomas
80

11%
Greivis Vasquez
342

47%

Total Votes: 723

Jimmer with 38%

 

[rainmaker]

Has anybody actually seen Vasquez play and paid attention? Seems like most of the comments including mine are based on his stats and what has been written. I hope PDA has seen him. In huge generalities it seems like we have a guy who will pass the ball and that opens up what we need in a a SF. We no longer need a SF that can get assists to help cover for Tyreke's short coming. We don't necessarily need a scorer either what with Cousins and McLemore (making an assumption about the latter). We can acquire the best available. Now we need to act. This is frustrating to a guy who is now living in a culture that moves at lightening speed. I hope at least we don't take the Petrie method and let everybody pick and chose and we take what is left over.

I suspect the FO is going to plug the holes with its "sources" as I think all the rumors hurt them. Perhaps we have learned who to ignore and who to pay attention to. Get a great defensive big or a great SF and I will be content about this year. With all the cap money available there is no excuse to fail in this endeavor.

Yes, can't speak for anyone else but I've watched Vasquez. He's a solid PG. Good at setting guys up and moving the ball. But, he's a role player through and through. He's also a poor defender and not that good of a spot up shooter.

I really don't see how we need a role playing SF at this point. We needed a role player next to a hypothetical Reke/MLM pairing given Reke's ability to attack with the ball and shift defenses. With no perimeter player currently available to do that a role player is the last thing we need. And while MLM could be a star, he currently is not, nor does he project to be a star who can create his own so we still need that. We had that or at least the potential, but not anymore. A role playing SF and role players in general make their living off the creation of others, defenses needing to make choices. Without that threat from anyone not named Cuz, and Vasquez/MLM can't do that, a role playing SF becomes much less valuable.

Leonard made his living off the attention Parker/Duncan drew. Battier/Miller make their living off the attention Wade/Lebron drew. OKC is set up so role players live off the attention WB/Durant draw. Allen lived off the attention KG/Rondo/Pierce drew. Horry/Fisher off the attention Shaq/Kobe drew. Do away with the pairings and just go with one of the above on each team and the role players become much less effective and the star much easier to guard. Load up on the one star and stick to the 1-2 role playing shooters. Ask any of Leonard, Battier, Miller, Fisher, Allen, Sefalosha, Chalmers, Horry, etc to create on offense on their own instead of off the attention the stars drew and they are much, much less effective. And that is what we'd have with an AK or Wright or that type, still no one besides Cuz who can get their own and shift defenses.

 

[Hoovtrain]

go ahead, I stand by what I said. you can also point me to any fault in my argumentation, if you feel like it.

Well one fault is speaking in absolutes

 

[jalfa]

Well one fault is speaking in absolutes

alright, let me ammend the statement to: based on what I've seen from Greivis Vasquez, what I know about NO's system, the amount of possessions that Cuz will command as opposed to the guys that NO had, the amount of competition he will have here and the fact that NO is historically prone to onverinflating the assist totals of their point guards, I can see no way that Vasquez will average anywhere near the amount of assists he did last year. better?

 

[Hoovtrain]

alright, let me ammend the statement to: based on what I've seen from Greivis Vasquez, what I know about NO's system, the amount of possessions that Cuz will command as opposed to the guys that NO had, the amount of competition he will have here and the fact that NO is historically prone to onverinflating the assist totals of their point guards, I can see no way that Vasquez will average anywhere near the amount of assists he did last year. better?

Yes

 

[jalfa]

Yes

glad to be of assistance

 

[roasthawg]

the latest cowbell kingdom podcast had a Hornets/Pelicans blogger on who talked a bit about Vasquez and his game. one of the things he mentioned was that his assists were helped a lot by NO's system. Brian Roberts, a guy who was the shooting guard on a German team only 2 years ago, had to step into the starting role for 5 games and in that time averaged 10 assists a game. I reiterate: Vasquez will get nowhere near his assist numbers from last year on this team.

This is probably why our fo apparently liked Calderon more... and why NO was shopping Vasquez.

 

[Chupacabra]

This is probably why our fo apparently liked Calderon more... and why NO was shopping Vasquez.

I'd say the Vasquez acquisition was more about his style of play than adding his assist average to our teams assist average last year. Vasquez is constantly looking for his teammates and is able to get them the ball a good percentage of the time.

 

[roasthawg]

Vasquez is the big mystery in all of this so far for me... how much did we actually want him or was it more a matter of what the heck, let's take him? On the surface he seems similar to Calderon whom we pursued (and apparently liked more than Vasquez) but Calderon also is a much better shooter. I'm intrigued and can't wait to see Vasquez play for us.

 

[Sac.Kings]

Video of Vasquez arriving in Sacramento. Seems really happy to be here and seems like a good guy in general. I don't know how to embed the video. I tried.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pT-YYl9Uso

 

[Gary]

alright, let me ammend the statement to: based on what I've seen from Greivis Vasquez, what I know about NO's system, the amount of possessions that Cuz will command as opposed to the guys that NO had, the amount of competition he will have here and the fact that NO is historically prone to onverinflating the assist totals of their point guards, I can see no way that Vasquez will average anywhere near the amount of assists he did last year. better?

He's not going to average 9 here, but he will get 7-8 a game here depending on the system we run. I don't expect Greivis to be the facilitator on every play, but I do believe that the team will be better with Vasquez at PG than it was with IT at PG. Regardless of NO's system Vasquez could see the floor and he's a decent PG prospect so I am not worried in the least bit.

Of course you will have the people that just want to argue so when he doesn't get 9apg they will try to say he's the worst player in the world or something to that effect.

 

[Agent23]

He's not going to average 9 here, but he will get 7-8 a game here depending on the system we run. I don't expect Greivis to be the facilitator on every play, but I do believe that the team will be better with Vasquez at PG than it was with IT at PG. Regardless of NO's system Vasquez could see the floor and he's a decent PG prospect so I am not worried in the least bit.

Of course you will have the people that just want to argue so when he doesn't get 9apg they will try to say he's the worst player in the world or something to that effect.

We'll see. Hopefully his ankles are fully healed by the time training camp starts.