It's early, but anybody have a draft wish list yet?

vikinginferno

vikinginferno

Starter
#1,141
#1,141
rainmaker said:
Funny, because you just a couple days ago labelled everyone an IT hater in another thread for any level of criticism directed his way.

What's funny is both you and Kingster act like you've always been completely objective when posting about Reke and are unfairly labelled "haters", yet you both are among the first to call anyone who critiques IT a hater.:rolleyes:

Not that I really care one way or the other, but the double standard is amusing.
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No, I never said that at all. Don't put words into my mouth. I have not called anyone a name, yet others continue to insist on name calling while putting words into my mouth. Please stop as I don't like people saying that I have said something that isn't true.

Go look through my history. You will see I was one of the biggest supporters of Reke. I was one of the VERY FEW who clamored for him to be drafted while the vast majority salivated over Rubio. At some point this season, people began to become extremely defensive about any faults of Tyreke and have refused to acknowledge that he is likely not the player some people thought he was and that is okay! I go to a couple other Kings forums and for some reason, there is a unique culture here in that fashion. At one of the others (SactownRoyalty), there is a much more objective culture in regards to Tyreke (and IT). I distinctly remember during some of the game threads this season, mods silencing/threatening /mocking people who even only hinted that there was better ball movement when Tyreke was out. I remember specifically one mod stating something to the effect of "I wouldn't go any further if I were you" after someone pointed it out. At some point, the support for Tyreke led to less support for other Kings including Thornton and IT. I remember one of the major members of this forum comparing Tyreke to DMC while comparing Thornton to Hayes. To say that the culture here is objective in regards to Tyreke would be off to say the least.

Right below this comment is another perfect example. Responding to Gary, who disagrees with Mal saying that Marshall isn't as good as IT, mac tells Gary to not "waste his time" discussing the topic because he says Mal is an "IT fan". Yeah, it is so wrong to be a fan of a player on your own freaking team! This is just silly. By this logic, I could say to disregard what a ton of people say because you are a fan of Tyreke, a fan of DeMarcus, or a fan of JT.
 
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M

mac

All-Star
#1,142
#1,142
Gary said:
I tend to disagree with you on that statement. You know how hard it is for a college player at a big name school to average 10 assists a game? Have you seen how good Marshall sees the floor? Now his shooting isn't up to par but does our PG really need more than a few shots a game? Marshall's D is OK, not great not good, but OK. He's got the size to be able to switch if needed. He sees the floor better than any college player I have seen in the last 5-10 years. Will that translate to the NBA? We shall see. I have no doubt it will. He will always be looking to pass since he's not a shooter. That might be a blessing in disguise for Marshall, and whoever drafts him. Too many "me first" PGs in the league when the definition of a PG is to get shots for your teammates first.
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He's an IT fan, don't waste your time.
 
ParniValjak

ParniValjak

All-Star
#1,144
#1,144
vikinginferno said:
...and here is an example of what I am talking about in my post 2 posts up^^...
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Except if you look through Mal's history, you will see exactly what mac is talking about.

The reason he is on these forums is because of IT since he is first and foremost IT fan and if for some reason IT gets traded, I would bet everything I have on the fact that Mal would not stick around.

Over the years we have had a lot of player fans who never stuck around. Hedo, Peja, Casspi etc... Its no different to any of those groups.
 
M

mac

All-Star
#1,146
#1,146
Čarolija said:
Except if you look through Mal's history, you will see exactly what mac is talking about.

The reason he is on these forums is because of IT since he is first and foremost IT fan and if for some reason IT gets traded, I would bet everything I have on the fact that Mal would not stick around.

Over the years we have had a lot of player fans who never stuck around. Hedo, Peja, Casspi etc... Its no different to any of those groups.
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Thank you. /facepalm
 
vikinginferno

vikinginferno

Starter
#1,147
#1,147
Čarolija said:
Except if you look through Mal's history, you will see exactly what mac is talking about.

The reason he is on these forums is because of IT since he is first and foremost IT fan and if for some reason IT gets traded, I would bet everything I have on the fact that Mal would not stick around.

Over the years we have had a lot of player fans who never stuck around. Hedo, Peja, Casspi etc... Its no different to any of those groups.
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I just read a number of his comments and he seems to support the Kings as a whole, not just IT (although he does support IT in a large number of them). I don't know if he became a Kings fan because of IT, but it really doesn't matter. All of the posts that I read he made legitimate arguments for what he is saying. Many people here became fans of the Kings because they were a fan of a certain player that came to the Kings. Should we not take anything any of them say seriously because they are a "_______(insert player name here) fan"? It's just ridiculous.

It is ad hominem BY THE BOOKS. He is attacking Mal, not the argument Mal makes.

We all have certain biases. You can't discredit someone's argument simply because of this bias. You must discredit the argument itself.
 
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Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#1,148
#1,148
vikinginferno said:
I just read a number of his comments and he seems to support the Kings as a whole, not just IT (although he does support IT in a large number of them). I don't know if he became a Kings fan because of IT, but it really doesn't matter. All of the posts that I read he made legitimate arguments for what he is saying. Many people here became fans of the Kings because they were a fan of a certain player that came to the Kings. Should we not take anything any of them say seriously because they are a "_______(insert player name here) fan"? It's just ridiculous.

It is ad hominem BY THE BOOKS. He is attacking Mal, not the argument Mal makes.

We all have certain biases. You can't discredit someone's argument simply because of this bias. You must discredit the argument itself.
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Mal is a stright IT player fan. Nothing more, nothing less. I doubt he would even deny it. He's from Washington, this is his guy. Its always a problematic situation no matter who the player is. There is a huge gulf between a) wanting the team to do well and the player being an ends to that means; and b) wanting the player to do well, and seeing the team as an ends to that means.
 
vikinginferno

vikinginferno

Starter
#1,149
#1,149
Bricklayer said:
Mal is a stright IT player fan. Nothing more, nothing less. I doubt he would even deny it. He's from Washington, this is his guy. Its always a problematic situation no matter who the player is. There is a huge gulf between a) wanting the team to do well and the player being an ends to that means; and b) wanting the player to do well, and seeing the team as an ends to that means.
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Once again, if the argument that he is making is legitimate, it doesn't matter whether he is a fan of IT or not. Instead of the ad hominem attacks, prove why he is completely off base. I just read a ton of his posts and he is always reasonable, using statistics and data to back up any claims he makes.

Just wondering, but when was the last time someone who became a member here because they followed Tyreke was shrugged off and quieted as just a "Tyreke fan"?
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#1,150
#1,150
vikinginferno said:
Once again, if the argument that he is making is legitimate, it doesn't matter whether he is a fan of IT or not. Instead of the ad hominem attacks, prove why he is completely off base. I just read a ton of his posts and he is always reasonable, using statistics and data to back up any claims he makes.

Just wondering, but when was the last time someone who became a member here because they followed Tyreke was shrugged off and quieted as just a "Tyreke fan"?
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Oddly we really haven't had many of those. Came equipped with a smaller following than any other major player of recent memory. There were Cousins homers, Omri homers, Jimmer homers, we even had a Sergio Rodriguez homer. But almost the entire debate, on both sides, with Reke has been internally grown.
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#1,151
#1,151
vikinginferno said:
No, I never said that at all. Don't put words into my mouth. I have not called anyone a name, yet others continue to insist on name calling while putting words into my mouth. Please stop as I don't like people saying that I have said something that isn't true.

Go look through my history. You will see I was one of the biggest supporters of Reke. I was one of the VERY FEW who clamored for him to be drafted while the vast majority salivated over Rubio. At some point this season, people began to become extremely defensive about any faults of Tyreke and have refused to acknowledge that he is likely not the player some people thought he was and that is okay! I go to a couple other Kings forums and for some reason, there is a unique culture here in that fashion. At one of the others (SactownRoyalty), there is a much more objective culture in regards to Tyreke (and IT). I distinctly remember during some of the game threads this season, mods silencing/threatening /mocking people who even only hinted that there was better ball movement when Tyreke was out. I remember specifically one mod stating something to the effect of "I wouldn't go any further if I were you" after someone pointed it out. At some point, the support for Tyreke led to less support for other Kings including Thornton and IT. I remember one of the major members of this forum comparing Tyreke to DMC while comparing Thornton to Hayes. To say that the culture here is objective in regards to Tyreke would be off to say the least.
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That's your perception of it. I read Sactown Royalty too but I don't post there. To me the difference with this site is that STR is structured like a blog with the majority of the action taking place in the comments section. That's fine, nothing wrong with that format if it works for you, but I've found that it does tend to encourage one-liners and wit over in-depth analysis. The format here allows you to spread out a little more and attack an issue from multiple angles. With the Tyreke debate, for instance, there is no easy answer. And if you want to make an attempt at evaluating where he's going as a player you really do have to look at all of the evidence not just the last 5 games or so. It doesn't bother me that we don't all agree about his future as a player. Of course we don't agree! If there were an easy answer there, it would be settled by now but there is no easy answer. So we debate. Sometimes it gets a little personal and feelings get hurt, but in spirit the point of an argument isn't to win, it's to exchange ideas.

If you felt you were being pressured to toe the "Tyreke is great line" at times I would suggest that a possible reason might be the manner you choose to put your opinion across. Just because I don't go into every game thread and point out the things Tyreke is doing wrong doesn't mean I've got blinders on. To me it's understood that exceptionally talented players get a little more rope to work with as they attempt to learn the game. The potential payoff is worth all the bumps in the road. So I sit back some times and shake my head at Tyreke's decision-making but I'll deal with it as long as I continue to believe he's going to figure it out at some point. What gets tiresome to me are the knee-jerk reactions. When people come in and post "I've had it with Tyreke, he needs to go" because of something he did or didn't do last week, without any context of why. I've been around here long enough that I've got a feel for how certain people think and what their reasons are. And that's why I keep coming back -- to participate in the discussion and bounce ideas off of people whose opinions I've come to respect. My feeling on the matter is -- if you want to be a part of that community, great. If not there are other places you can post where your comments won't be held to the same scrutiny. And that isn't directed specifically at you but rather the idea that objectivism is discouraged here.

What it ultimately comes down to are the games themselves. The opinions I have about these players come from watching the games. I'm nobody's cousin, I don't have money invested in somebody's personal brand. If Tyreke or Thornton or IT or whoever blows out their knee tomorrow and never play another game it doesn't directly impact my life. I have no reason to be anything but objective about this. So start there -- whatever disagreements we may have stem from our perceptions of how we see the games. If that's where your focus is, rather than trying to instigate something or choose sides in a debate, than you'll find most disagreements can be resolved.
 
vikinginferno

vikinginferno

Starter
#1,152
#1,152
hrdboild said:
That's your perception of it. I read Sactown Royalty too but I don't post there. To me the difference with this site is that STR is structured like a blog with the majority of the action taking place in the comments section. That's fine, nothing wrong with that format if it works for you, but I've found that it does tend to encourage one-liners and wit over in-depth analysis. The format here allows you to spread out a little more and attack an issue from multiple angles. With the Tyreke debate, for instance, there is no easy answer. And if you want to make an attempt at evaluating where he's going as a player you really do have to look at all of the evidence not just the last 5 games or so. It doesn't bother me that we don't all agree about his future as a player. Of course we don't agree! If there were an easy answer there, it would be settled by now but there is no easy answer. So we debate. Sometimes it gets a little personal and feelings get hurt, but in spirit the point of an argument isn't to win, it's to exchange ideas.

If you felt you were being pressured to toe the "Tyreke is great line" at times I would suggest that a possible reason might be the manner you choose to put your opinion across. Just because I don't go into every game thread and point out the things Tyreke is doing wrong doesn't mean I've got blinders on. To me it's understood that exceptionally talented players get a little more rope to work with as they attempt to learn the game. The potential payoff is worth all the bumps in the road. So I sit back some times and shake my head at Tyreke's decision-making but I'll deal with it as long as I continue to believe he's going to figure it out at some point. What gets tiresome to me are the knee-jerk reactions. When people come in and post "I've had it with Tyreke, he needs to go" because of something he did or didn't do last week, without any context of why. I've been around here long enough that I've got a feel for how certain people think and what their reasons are. And that's why I keep coming back -- to participate in the discussion and bounce ideas off of people whose opinions I've come to respect. My feeling on the matter is -- if you want to be a part of that community, great. If not there are other places you can post where your comments won't be held to the same scrutiny. And that isn't directed specifically at you but rather the idea that objectivism is discouraged here.

What it ultimately comes down to are the games themselves. The opinions I have about these players come from watching the games. I'm nobody's cousin, I don't have money invested in somebody's personal brand. If Tyreke or Thornton or IT or whoever blows out their knee tomorrow and never play another game it doesn't directly impact my life. I have no reason to be anything but objective about this. So start there -- whatever disagreements we may have stem from our perceptions of how we see the games. If that's where your focus is, rather than trying to instigate something or choose sides in a debate, than you'll find most disagreements can be resolved.
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Very good post and I don't disagree with anything you said here. I want to point out that when I mentioned "mods silencing/threatening /mocking people who even only hinted that there was better ball movement when Tyreke was out", I was not one of the people that had commented, but it is something I noticed and thought was not right.

There have been a very small amount of "I've had it with Tyreke, he needs to go" posts, but that is not what I am discussing. I am talking about legitimate discussions regarding Tyreke or even whenever discussing other guards. During the season, it was literally seen as heresy to even mention that the ball movement was better when Tyreke was out. Is that saying that we don't think Tyreke is a good player or an important part of this team? No way! It is just an observation. Personally, I think it has more to do with the team as a whole and the coaching than Tyreke himself (in regards to ball movement).

Regarding "if you want to be a part of that community, great. If not there are other places you can post where your comments won't be held to the same scrutiny. "- I would only leave this forum as a last option. I have been here for a few years and have no intention to stop frequenting. For the most part, this forum cultivates strong discussion of topics and is a great place during the season to discuss games, news, and ideas. This is only a somewhat small qualm I have with the site. I would much rather speak up and hopefully improve that problem than leave as a result of it.
 
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hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#1,155
#1,155
vikinginferno said:
Very good post and I don't disagree with anything you said here. I want to point out that when I mentioned "mods silencing/threatening /mocking people who even only hinted that there was better ball movement when Tyreke was out", I was not one of the people that had commented, but it is something I noticed and thought was not right.

There have been a very small amount of "I've had it with Tyreke, he needs to go" posts, but that is not what I am discussing. I am talking about legitimate discussions regarding Tyreke or even whenever discussing other guards. During the season, it was literally seen as heresy to even mention that the ball movement was better when Tyreke was out. Is that saying that we don't think Tyreke is a good player or an important part of this team? No way! It is just an observation. Personally, I think it has more to do with the team as a whole and the coaching than Tyreke himself (in regards to ball movement).

Regarding "if you want to be a part of that community, great. If not there are other places you can post where your comments won't be held to the same scrutiny. "- I would only leave this forum as a last option. I have been here for a few years and have no intention to stop frequenting. For the most part, this forum cultivates strong discussion of topics and is a great place during the season to discuss games, news, and ideas. This is only a somewhat small qualm I have with the site. I would much rather speak up and hopefully improve that problem than leave as a result of it.
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I think you pretty much answered it already -- the ball movement did get a lot better the second half of the season but there were a lot of reasons for that and only a few of them related to Tyreke. Coach Smart, to his credit, seemed to recognize right away what Westphal couldn't and that's that Cousins is your horse. He needs the ball down low to go to work. Hickson and Salmons were ball-stoppers. Getting them out of the starting lineup opened things up some more for everyone else. And then there's always going to be an element of ball stoppage to Evans' game. He's going to isolate up top and break his man down from time to time and that's okay as long as it isn't our entire offense.

But again that's a lengthy discussion and both sides to it have compelling arguments. The offense would flow better with a distributor like Rubio running point, but that's not the only way it can be done (yes I'm looking at you Ailene Voisin) and we have Tyreke on our team not Rubio so we should probably try to build around his strengths.

That's just a sideline though to your main point and I agree with you there that at times I've felt the mods can go a little overboard for my taste but I also understand where they're coming from. It's a family friendly board -- if something looks like it's headed in a bad direction they have to anticipate that and get it under control. I've felt like I've had my toes stepped on once or twice in that regard, but it's not entirely without reason. The mods also happen to be some of the more opinionated people on the site so their opinions can sometimes feel like they have the weight of authority behind them. It's not a bad trade-off though I think for a forum that represents a pretty diverse range of people and doesn't feel like the boys lockerroom that most sports sites devolve to. :)
 
G

Gilles

Starter
#1,156
#1,156
I don't think not recognising something was Westfall's problem. Team had a lot of fun at the end of 2010/11 season, but then Westfall asked to bring in Hayes, Hickson and Salmons, guys who are not off the ball players, while losing Dalembert, Udrih and Casspi on the way. Team dynamics changed a lot and that's what caused the rebellion. I remember Hickson's reaction to the trade looked like "Nooo!", he just didn't want to be here.
 
Kingster

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#1,157
#1,157
mac said:
I can't speak for others but your attitude towards Evans comes across to me very differently. Your posts seem to imply that youd given up on him, that he would never improve, never get a jumpshot and that we should trade him for money to polish Isaiah Thomas' teeth. I haven't read a single supportive post from you about him in the past half a year.

Gary on the other hand, was furious when we picked Evans, but still comes across as supporting Evans and the Kings. He's critical too, but actually shows that he wants the Kings to use Evans in a better way.
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I'm an AGNOSTIC when it comes to Evans. Unfortunately, people tend to want you to be a BELIEVER or an ATHEIST. I'm neither. He could make it on the Kings; he could not make it on the Kings. He could be a superstar; he could not be a superstar. He could be a cornerstone of the franchise; he could not be a cornerstone of the franchise. That's why I use the word, "precipice" above. He's very close, if not at the edge of his future as a pro basketball player, imo. That's why I'm so concerned about his training regiment. If I thought Tyreke Evans was a foregone conclusion to either be an All Star or just a mid-level player I could care less how much trains and how he trains. But because I regard Tyreke Evans as one giant ? I am very concerned about not only how much he works at his game, but how intelligently he works at his game. At some point he's going to reach a tipping point in his career where he's going to either go up, or he's not. And if he doesn't go up, his future in the NBA and on the Kings is going to be considerably different than if he does.
 
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Kingster

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#1,158
#1,158
Bricklayer said:
Your disappointment however has turned you into a fuillblown hater unable to see what he DOES do well because you are too blinded by what he doesn't. I am quite sure if you were held up to a simiilar standard everybody in your life would consider you an abysmal failure too. Fortunately most people in real life are far more rational than sports fans when trying to evaluate people.
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Yeah, now I'm not rational. But of course you are rational. A little self-serving, don't you think?

Of course I'm going to hold Tyrke Evans to a MUCH higher standard than most players. Why? Because he has a MUCH higher ceiling, imo. If the guy had a ceiling of Garcia, then who the heck cares if he is a mid-leval player? It's like having a gifted student in your class. You better believe that the teacher should expect much more from him than the average student in the class. Is that rational enough for you?
 
Kingster

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#1,159
#1,159
rainmaker said:
Funny, because you just a couple days ago labelled everyone an IT hater in another thread for any level of criticism directed his way.

What's funny is both you and Kingster act like you've always been completely objective when posting about Reke and are unfairly labelled "haters", yet you both are among the first to call anyone who critiques IT a hater.:rolleyes:

Not that I really care one way or the other, but the double standard is amusing.
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It's not about objective or subjective, Rainmaker. Let's get that clear. It's about insulting people. Everything from calling IT a "midget", which is poisonous language meant to make him inconsequential in the minds of others, to referring to people as stupid or irrational. Do you defend that? If not, then how about coming out with me now and say that this board has become toxic and we better start respecting people. That doesn't mean we have to agree with them. It means that we have to stop the insults.
 
M

mac

All-Star
#1,160
#1,160
Kingster said:
I'm an AGNOSTIC when it comes to Evans. Unfortunately, people tend to want you to be a BELIEVER or an ATHEIST. I'm neither. He could make it on the Kings; he could not make it on the Kings. He could be a superstar; he could not be a superstar. He could be a cornerstone of the franchise; he could not be a cornerstone of the franchise. That's why I use the word, "precipice" above. He's very close, if not at the edge of his future as a pro basketball player, imo. That's why I'm so concerned about his training regiment. If I thought Tyreke Evans was a foregone conclusion to either be an All Star or just a mid-level player I could care less how much trains and how he trains. But because I regard Tyreke Evans as one giant ? I am very concerned about not only how much he works at his game, but how intelligently he works at his game. At some point he's going to reach a tipping point in his career where he's going to either go up, or he's not. And if he doesn't go up, his future in the NBA and on the Kings is going to be considerably different than if he does.
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Fair enough, and again, I have no issue with you not being all over Evans and thinking he's the next coming of Wade. I don't even have a problem with you holding him to a higher standard. What I do take issue with, is that your posts rarely seem to praise him for what he DOES do, and instead is always attacking him for what he doesn't. In comparison, other players who you perhaps hold to lesser standards (IT perhaps?) seem to draw lots of unending praise from you.

This makes it seem like you're leaning heavily towards "not superstar, not even a normal level player - SCRUB!" instead of the "could go either way" stance that you claim to hold.

Maybe my eyes have just been playing tricks on me, and I also don't admit to reading every word of every post you make, but the general impression I get is that your posts attack Evans far more than they praise him, and it's not even close. Forgive me if indeed you have been giving objective criticism together with credit where it's due, and I've just been missing these posts.

In any case, it's good that you have clarified your stance and I will try to read your posts about him in a new light from now on, trying to see them from where you're coming from.

I really feel that Evans is going to be a superstar for us, we just need to be patient and he needs to be able to trust that the coach will put him in a position to succeed. There is really ZERO argument that this was the case last season.
 
Sac.Kings

Sac.Kings

All-Star
#1,161
#1,161
Haven't really posted in regards to the draft, but if MKG is there, you take him. He is everything we want and need out of a SF (asides from the shooting, but we don't need more scorers) and would allow Tyreke to move to SG and put Thornton on the bench as 6th man. If Thornton has a problem you trade him for a defensive big. I somehow don't see IT as the future PG either.. just too small and loves to shoot too much (at least so far anyway). Might be willing to try the Tyreke-Thornton-MKG combo...
 
G

Gilles

Starter
#1,162
#1,162
Interestingly, nbadraft.net who are always going by what they hear from the teams and not their own opinion, dropped Drummond from #2 to #6 and put Barnes at #2. Maybe they just go on a limb but certainly an interesting development.
 
Uncia03

Uncia03

Starter
#1,163
#1,163
Gilles said:
Interestingly, nbadraft.net who are always going by what they hear from the teams and not their own opinion, dropped Drummond from #2 to #6 and put Barnes at #2. Maybe they just go on a limb but certainly an interesting development.
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That is interesting.

I think from the Bobcat's perspective, you'd like to bring in someone who you think can be an offensive star. MKG definitely isn't going to fill that role. (though he brings the winning/intangibles that the team also needs)
Robinson, Beal, & Barnes all have way higher offensive upsides than MKG, so it wouldn't be shocking if they went in that direction, though I'd be surprised to see Barnes taken above Robinson & Beal.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#1,164
#1,164
Kingster said:
Yeah, now I'm not rational. But of course you are rational. A little self-serving, don't you think?

Of course I'm going to hold Tyrke Evans to a MUCH higher standard than most players. Why? Because he has a MUCH higher ceiling, imo. If the guy had a ceiling of Garcia, then who the heck cares if he is a mid-leval player? It's like having a gifted student in your class. You better believe that the teacher should expect much more from him than the average student in the class. Is that rational enough for you?
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No, its like having a gifted student in your class and calling him stupid and giving him Fs even though his papers are better than 80% of his classmates anyway.
 
Mass

Mass

Starter
#1,169
#1,169
I think so too, MKG will be there at 5. Davis, Robinson, Beal and Barnes will be the top 4 picks. That's why I don't want to trade down, he is the player I want, so please Petrie, just play it safe and don't waste our pick.

I'm not even worried about his shooting. If he's there, take him. He could even be a better shooter than we think. Look at this stats:

MKG 11/12 - .491 FG% - .255 3FG% - .745 FT%
Leonard 10/11 - .444 FG% - .291 3FG% - .759 FT%

We all know how good Leonard was this year, and he was able to hit the spot up 3. I'm confident MKG will be able to do the same.
 
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