The Lockout has arrived.

Trueblood

Trueblood

Bench
#691
#691
bajaden said:
I wasn't aware that the stretch provision applied to the cap. I guess I wasn't paying enough attention. Thats a nice concession for the players. Personally, I think this is a pretty good deal for the players. As I said before, I can't see Hunter and Fisher endorsing decertification, since it would render both of them irrevelatnt. I'm still optimistic something gets done.

If you'll indulge me, I'd like to throw a stone at the Bee. I think their coverage of this has been horrible. Sam Amick, the ex-beat writer has written more articles on the lockout than the the entire staff of the Bee. They have Jones covering the Raiders. If I were the beat writer for the Bee, I'd be out polling all the players on the Kings to get an idea of where they stand, and how up to date they are. Thats what they make cell phones for. Its a damm shame when the sports fans of sacramento have to read the LA times, or the New York times etc. to get informantion. OK!! Now I feel better.....
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I agree. This is just another example of the Bee being atrocious so it doesn't surprise me.

OTOH, I don't know how much info the King players would be willing to divulge. Even if they support the deal and want to get back to playing, they probably have an agent or union rep telling them not to say anything.
 
rainmaker

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#692
#692
Trueblood said:
I agree. This is just another example of the Bee being atrocious so it doesn't surprise me.

OTOH, I don't know how much info the King players would be willing to divulge. Even if they support the deal and want to get back to playing, they probably have an agent or union rep telling them not to say anything.
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Or they're more concerned with video games, or whether or not their hat matches their shoes. A lot of these players just don't care, and haven't taken time to inform themselves.

There was a tweet on espn yesterday saying a good amount of players don't even know who their team rep is. Pretty clear to me everyday people usually care a whole lot more about their money, and are more educated about it, then a lot of these players. Not all, but a lot.

I'd guess most players know what 52 or 53% means, simply because it's been repeated to death. But ask most the short and longterm ramifications of 52 vs 50, and to weigh the pros and cons of each, and I bet you won't get a very intelligent response.
 
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Trueblood

Trueblood

Bench
#693
#693
If the players indeed make an amended proposal to what the owners are putting on the table now, I'm curious as to what 3 amendments the players will make and then take to the owners for hopeful ratification. Stern has threatened ultimatums before only to see more negotiating so I'm betting that there's still wiggle room for at least one more concession. I'm hoping that the amendments that are made will be small enough for the owners to let go.

If I'm the owners, I'm willing to cave a bit on the S & T thing. I still don't see why it's such a big deal. As Berger pointed out last week, there were only 5 S & T's involving tax payers over the course of the last CBA. The players seem to think it's important and knowing what I know from an owner standpoint, I really hope that this is one of the player amendments that we'll see tomorrow.

As for the other 2, I hope they are more minor. Maybe increase the amount of raises in a contract. The owner proposal has it at 6.5 & 3.5. Let the players have 10 & 5. It's better than the last cba and it's easy for us fans to figure in our heads since 10 & 5 around round numbers.

I also heard that the owners want to lower the rookie scale. That's lame. The rookie scale is great for the owners and they shouldn't be jerking around with it. Let the players have it where it is now.

So that's it. The final 3 compromises should be lay off on the sign & trade limitations, increase the raises to 10 & 5 and keep the rookie scale as is.

Thoughts?
 
Trueblood

Trueblood

Bench
#694
#694
rainmaker said:
Or they're more concerned with video games, or whether or not their hat matches their shoes. A lot of these players just don't care, and haven't taken time to inform themselves.

There was a tweet on espn yesterday saying a good amount of players don't even know who their team rep is. Pretty clear to me everyday people usually care a whole lot more about their money, and are more educated about it, then a lot of these players. Not all, but a lot.

I'd guess most players know what 52 or 53% means, simply because it's been repeated to death. But ask most the short and longterm ramifications of 52 vs 50, and to weigh the pros and cons of each, and I bet you won't get a very intelligent response.
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That's why I wish this thing would go to the rank & file for a vote. Most of them just want to play and get paid and if they were outwardly honest, would tell you that this whole "stick up for future generations & we need to take a stand" rhetoric is garbage.
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#695
#695
Trueblood said:
If the players indeed make an amended proposal to what the owners are putting on the table now, I'm curious as to what 3 amendments the players will make and then take to the owners for hopeful ratification. Stern has threatened ultimatums before only to see more negotiating so I'm betting that there's still wiggle room for at least one more concession. I'm hoping that the amendments that are made will be small enough for the owners to let go.

If I'm the owners, I'm willing to cave a bit on the S & T thing. I still don't see why it's such a big deal. As Berger pointed out last week, there were only 5 S & T's involving tax payers over the course of the last CBA. The players seem to think it's important and knowing what I know from an owner standpoint, I really hope that this is one of the player amendments that we'll see tomorrow.

As for the other 2, I hope they are more minor. Maybe increase the amount of raises in a contract. The owner proposal has it at 6.5 & 3.5. Let the players have 10 & 5. It's better than the last cba and it's easy for us fans to figure in our heads since 10 & 5 around round numbers.

I also heard that the owners want to lower the rookie scale. That's lame. The rookie scale is great for the owners and they shouldn't be jerking around with it. Let the players have it where it is now.

So that's it. The final 3 compromises should be lay off on the sign & trade limitations, increase the raises to 10 & 5 and keep the rookie scale as is.

Thoughts?
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Somehow I don't think the owners care how much easier it is to do the math at 10 and 5. But I could see them going up to perhaps 8 and 4.5. I agree on the rookie scales, and if the idea is to let the drafting team hang onto their players, I'd keep the length of contracts for rookies the same as well. As for the sign and trade provision. I just don't see why thats such a big deal to the owners. I'd throw them that bone in a second.
 
Trueblood

Trueblood

Bench
#697
#697
sidney said:
Here's the leaked proposal:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/nba proposal 11-11-2011.pdf

Stern clearly annoyed at the lack of communication of union to the players. Now this comes out for all to see. Amnesty is in this doc.
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Thanks for that link. What I found interesting was Silver's note at the top where he writes to Hunter, "we stand ready to engage with you on all remaining bargaining issues...". I assume he is talking about the B list stuff.

I'm sorry but if I'm the players, I want to hear exactly why this is such a bad idea and how it restricts movement. It's been reported in the media and backed up as fact that S & T's among tax payers are quite rare. Not sure why this is such a bad thing but if that's what they feel will restrict movement then I suggest the owners make it one of the final 3 concessions. Otherwise, things like amnesty towards the cap (#14 in the pdf link) and the stretch provision (#9/first bullet point) are things that will open up movement like we haven't seen in awhile.
 
Dr. Spaceman

Dr. Spaceman

Bench
#698
#698
Howard Beck of the NYT breaks down how the proposed CBA would affect the league:

http://t.co/qztqWblD

From looking at the leaked agreement, there's nothing there to for either side to be truly upset about -- certainly nothing that should lead to an outright dismissal of the proposal or a further delay to the start of the season. A few things that are still unaddressed, like the revised revenue sharing. And from a Kings perspective, the one thing that I worry about or dislike is the amnesty clause. Lets some of these overspenders get away with their mistakes and potentially put them back in the free agent market against us, even though we earned our cap space the hard way.

Regardless, it's a reasonable proposal, and Stern gets his 50/50 like he always planned. Anything you hear otherwise is just a part of a brilliant marketing/PR scheme from his end.
 
Telemachus

Telemachus

Starter
#699
#699
bajaden said:
I wasn't aware that the stretch provision applied to the cap. I guess I wasn't paying enough attention. Thats a nice concession for the players. Personally, I think this is a pretty good deal for the players. As I said before, I can't see Hunter and Fisher endorsing decertification, since it would render both of them irrevelatnt. I'm still optimistic something gets done.

If you'll indulge me, I'd like to throw a stone at the Bee. I think their coverage of this has been horrible. Sam Amick, the ex-beat writer has written more articles on the lockout than the the entire staff of the Bee. They have Jones covering the Raiders. If I were the beat writer for the Bee, I'd be out polling all the players on the Kings to get an idea of where they stand, and how up to date they are. Thats what they make cell phones for. Its a damm shame when the sports fans of sacramento have to read the LA times, or the New York times etc. to get informantion. OK!! Now I feel better.....
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90% of the "lockout coverage" that Jones does on twitter is simply re-tweeting Sam Amick. I agree that it is pretty sad to see what the Bee has become with their coverage of the Kings and the NBA.
 
Telemachus

Telemachus

Starter
#700
#700
Trueblood said:
If I'm the owners, I'm willing to cave a bit on the S & T thing. I still don't see why it's such a big deal. As Berger pointed out last week, there were only 5 S & T's involving tax payers over the course of the last CBA. The players seem to think it's important and knowing what I know from an owner standpoint, I really hope that this is one of the player amendments that we'll see tomorrow.
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I would point out that while there have only been a few S&Ts done the past few years, a lot of players have used the idea of a S&T as leverage for an extention or trade (during the season like Melo). I think that the owners are tying to keep the players using it to hold over their heads.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#701
#701
Some clever clauses in there, pending the exact details of course. I wish I could be confident the players would read them/understand them if they did read them (although in a couple of cases the clever is such that maybe its better if they don't).
 
Uncia03

Uncia03

Starter
#703
#703
Well, at first I was hanging my hat on Hunter and Fisher convincing the player reps that they should allow the players to vote on the proposal.
It seems as if Stern is concerned that for some reason it might not get to a vote.

If it gets to a vote, I'm quite confident that it will get accepted. It looks to me that this memo from Stern is intended to make certain that the rank-and-file players demand from the Union that they get the opportunity to vote on the proposal.

We'll know in the next day or two whether we can expect to see a season.

I also want to comment on the S&T issue. As mentioned earlier, though not many S&Ts take place, the threat of S&T, especially to veteran teams is a leveraging tool used by players which can negatively impact a team. We saw it with Melo last season, and it appeared that one of the reasons Utah dealt Williams was to avoid the same sort of drama this year. We're going to see all sorts of additional drama with Howard and the Magic due the feasibility of a S&T to teams such as the Lakers.

I'll be very glad once it becomes an option on longer available to teams over the tax.
 
sidney

sidney

Starter
#705
#705
Clause 13.1 is interesting. No more sign and extends. Must wait 6 months after signing an extension to trade a player or after traded a player can't sign an extension for 6 months after. That should be called the Melo rule. Would be great for us not to have to deal with that scenario with Tyreke and Cousins.
 
rainmaker

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#713
#713
Fisher: "We want to make it clear to our fans that we haven't chosen to be in this position."

Really? F off. I'm just about done with the league. Never thought I'd say that.
 
rainmaker

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#715
#715
Amick says no Kings rep showed up to NY. Embarrassing.

Amick says some players STILL do not know who team player rep is, or have had contact with player rep.
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#716
#716
David Aldridge tweeted that one of the players he spoke to prior to the meeting didn't know who his player rep was. Another didn't know that there were three mid-level exceptions in the new proposal. Another said that he had never been contacted by his player rep. Also, apparently after the last meeting some of the player reps asked for a hard copy of the leagues proposal instead of the power points document put out by the union, and they were refused.

Right now the union is strong arming the members down a path that many might not want to go down. No one to blame but themselves. This could possibly turn out to be one giant disastor for both the league and the union. One funny note. Sam Amick tweeted that he was about to be on KHTK to discuss his future as a NFL writer.
 
rainmaker

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#718
#718
On espn Stern says it's now in the hands on the lawyers, and to prepare for years of litigation. Doesn't appear a counter from owners is coming anytime soon, and Stern said our offer was too much, and we'll roll it back.

Could be blowing smoke, but it appears he and the owners are not cowering. If true, players have committed professional suicide.
 
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