The Lockout has arrived.
- Thread starter rainmaker
- Start date
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7...unter-letter-players-urges-stay-united-strong
I really don't get Hunter's position and attitude - although he claims it's all the owners fault. What about millions of dollars stars make or even few hundred thousand dollars all players make in commercial endorsements, appearance fees, etc. each year on top of a big fat league salary - where's any mention of that! I want to see NBA basketball sooner rather than later, but as long as Hunter is calling most of the shots in representing the union - it's likely to be later, way later.
I really don't get Hunter's position and attitude - although he claims it's all the owners fault. What about millions of dollars stars make or even few hundred thousand dollars all players make in commercial endorsements, appearance fees, etc. each year on top of a big fat league salary - where's any mention of that! I want to see NBA basketball sooner rather than later, but as long as Hunter is calling most of the shots in representing the union - it's likely to be later, way later.
I'm no fan of Billy Hunter but I can't believe he is the one holding this up. Let's be honest. The agents, led by David Falk, called all the shots in '98 with Hunter as the puppet. Hunter didn't like being called a puppet so from that point on, we were supposed to believe that he was really the head guy. But before you knew it, you had those 7 big time agents telling their clients to not go a penny below 53%.
Trust me, I really wish that it was Hunter who was holding this up. If so, it would just take a little bit of grease to get this thing back up and running. But Duffy, Tellem, Bartelstein and the other 4 are calling the shots. It's how it always is and that sucks for us fans.
Trust me, I really wish that it was Hunter who was holding this up. If so, it would just take a little bit of grease to get this thing back up and running. But Duffy, Tellem, Bartelstein and the other 4 are calling the shots. It's how it always is and that sucks for us fans.
I assume the players know taking the 50% now will be much better than if they got 52% after sitting out a full season. I don't think the owners are going to budge. The owners have been losing money, but they are mostly to blame by paying these outrageous salaries. Maybe now they will see the error of their ways and start to get this thing back under control and actually start making money again. Was wrong about "emergency meetings" happening Monday or Tuesday to end the lockout but hope this weekend it's ended.
Decertification will spell doom. Stern would immediately cancel 2011-12 season without question. I can't believe this union, any union, would vote self-destruction in destroying a professional sports league that has made them millions. Everything would be tied up in litigation for months - even years. The lawyers on retainer would love it, and the players greedy agents would get their sinister wish. But who loses? EVERYONE ELSE!! The entire NBA might break up as the voluminous court cases endlessly drag on. Likely, another pro league would form however difficult to launch. Bring back the red, white, and blue ball - crank up the old ABA! This is now certified or decertified insane! I need a double scotch on the rocks...
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7185628/nba-players-working-decertification-sources-say
Oh, and for all of us hoping it's all just a bluff, well, hope is a much overused word it seems in this CBA showdown: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/33059/the-ending-bad-or-ugly
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7185628/nba-players-working-decertification-sources-say
Oh, and for all of us hoping it's all just a bluff, well, hope is a much overused word it seems in this CBA showdown: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/33059/the-ending-bad-or-ugly
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Decertifying in Nov? Why?
If the Union was going to decertify, it should have happened in July. Nov? Kiss the season, along with millions of fans goodbye. As well as hundreds of millions you'll never see again.
Players/Union can't be this stupid can they? There's a 50/50 offer sitting in the table, yet they'd rather throw away all this money?
If this happens, my opinion of the league will forever change. I've been pretty patient listening to the idiotic dribble coming from all sides.
I just can't have much respect for a league with such corrupt ownership, idiot players, a dumb as rocks leader in Hunter, and zero respect for the fans, arena workers, or the world economy at large.
Decertifying is not only a death wish for the season, as well as the money the players would make, but also the the league at large. It took 6 years for the league to recover financially from 98. That was in a better economy, and with a shortened season that was still played.
In this economy? With no games played? F off. I'd rather watch EPL or Bund soccer. At least I know they'll never lockout and miss games. At least they have a whole lot more respect for the fans. At least they realize making more then we can ever dream of, while it might not reach the max they can make, is better then not playing and not making anything at all.
A little ironic isn't it that it's guys like KG, Wade, Pierce calling for decertification. They have tens of millions in the bank. Wonder if a guy like Tyreke or Rose feel the same way? It's another thing to only have made about 6M in your career, throw away the next 3M, AND get a worse deal next summer or whenever.
F this league. We as fans, regularly drop $180 per, for league pass, as well as hundreds-thousands just to attend a few games. Yet we as fans mean nothing. They'd rather throw away the season over 80M(two % points), which is money they've already lost.
F off. I love basketball, but hate self absorbed idiots.
If the Union was going to decertify, it should have happened in July. Nov? Kiss the season, along with millions of fans goodbye. As well as hundreds of millions you'll never see again.
Players/Union can't be this stupid can they? There's a 50/50 offer sitting in the table, yet they'd rather throw away all this money?
If this happens, my opinion of the league will forever change. I've been pretty patient listening to the idiotic dribble coming from all sides.
I just can't have much respect for a league with such corrupt ownership, idiot players, a dumb as rocks leader in Hunter, and zero respect for the fans, arena workers, or the world economy at large.
Decertifying is not only a death wish for the season, as well as the money the players would make, but also the the league at large. It took 6 years for the league to recover financially from 98. That was in a better economy, and with a shortened season that was still played.
In this economy? With no games played? F off. I'd rather watch EPL or Bund soccer. At least I know they'll never lockout and miss games. At least they have a whole lot more respect for the fans. At least they realize making more then we can ever dream of, while it might not reach the max they can make, is better then not playing and not making anything at all.
A little ironic isn't it that it's guys like KG, Wade, Pierce calling for decertification. They have tens of millions in the bank. Wonder if a guy like Tyreke or Rose feel the same way? It's another thing to only have made about 6M in your career, throw away the next 3M, AND get a worse deal next summer or whenever.
F this league. We as fans, regularly drop $180 per, for league pass, as well as hundreds-thousands just to attend a few games. Yet we as fans mean nothing. They'd rather throw away the season over 80M(two % points), which is money they've already lost.
F off. I love basketball, but hate self absorbed idiots.
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Hate to say it, but I have to agree with those casting doom around. Decertification is a death nell. It also equals stupid! It would take the players union a couple of weeks at best just to get the majority of players to agree to it, and then the entire matter would be tied up in court for months. So it equals, kiss the season goodbye.
Will it happen? I really doubt it. I don't doubt that there are some that would want to pursue it. But I doubt they could get the majority of the union to agree. Especially if they know what the outcome will be. So my gut tells me its just the union trying to gain a little leverage by threatening to decertify. They've lost and they know it. And the league knows it. I loved the quote by Hunter when he said, "The union will never accept a deal where the league makes as much, or more money than the Union". I mean wow! I can't imagine owning a business where the employees dictate how much I make.
Will it happen? I really doubt it. I don't doubt that there are some that would want to pursue it. But I doubt they could get the majority of the union to agree. Especially if they know what the outcome will be. So my gut tells me its just the union trying to gain a little leverage by threatening to decertify. They've lost and they know it. And the league knows it. I loved the quote by Hunter when he said, "The union will never accept a deal where the league makes as much, or more money than the Union". I mean wow! I can't imagine owning a business where the employees dictate how much I make.
Maybe I am wrong, but from what I've read, the union only needs a 30% vote to decertify. Keep seeing 30% thrown around.
That is scary in my mind, because it would only take the vets, who have the bank accounts to withstand an entire year, to vote that way. Wouldn't matter what the guys on rookie contracts think. Wouldn't need a majority vote if true. It's the rich all stars who could screw it all up for the rest. Well, them and the agents.
Nevermind, this is what I was getting at.
"Thirty percent of the union members would need to sign a petition to force a vote on decertification. A majority vote could then dissolve the union."
So it only takes 30% to force a vote. I am not confident at all with these guys if it came to a one time vote to decertify. many of these guys don't seem to be economically/financially literate enough to understand the repercussions. If it went to a vote, I'd be afraid many guys will simply listen to the vets and agents.
That is scary in my mind, because it would only take the vets, who have the bank accounts to withstand an entire year, to vote that way. Wouldn't matter what the guys on rookie contracts think. Wouldn't need a majority vote if true. It's the rich all stars who could screw it all up for the rest. Well, them and the agents.
Nevermind, this is what I was getting at.
"Thirty percent of the union members would need to sign a petition to force a vote on decertification. A majority vote could then dissolve the union."
So it only takes 30% to force a vote. I am not confident at all with these guys if it came to a one time vote to decertify. many of these guys don't seem to be economically/financially literate enough to understand the repercussions. If it went to a vote, I'd be afraid many guys will simply listen to the vets and agents.
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On top of that, it makes it sound as if the league is profiting as much or more than the players.
The players get their ~$2B share of BRI, and it's their personal money. They get to spend it on houses and cars and yachts and fancy dinners out and whatever it is that millionaires spend their money on.
The league gets its ~$2B share of BRI and they pay arena rent, pay the front office staff, pay the coaching staff, pay the training staff, pay any other associated staff, pay utility bills...in short, they pay every business expense except those they're trying to take off the top before BRI (which I think are travel expenses and expenses related to player benefits). So the owners don't walk away with ~$2B like the players do. In fact, the league is arguing that in total, the owners are losing money.
And here the players are, trying their damnedest to kill the goose that lays the golden egg. A labor dispute is one thing, and I can understand that from both sides. But decertification, if they actually carry through with it (as opposed to using it as a negotiating tactic, which is sleazy enough) is pretty much killing that goose. Not only is the season immediately gone, but since the only real reason to decertify is to bring anti-trust lawsuits, there will be legal wrangling that could shut down the league for years. If the players lose, it would have been all for nothing. If the players win, it would radically alter the face of professional sports, making league parity impossible, strangling small markets in all sports...when you're talking nuclear, I mean the players winning an anti-trust suit against the league would for the most part nuke professional sports in any cities not named New York or Los Angeles. Great move.
The players get their ~$2B share of BRI, and it's their personal money. They get to spend it on houses and cars and yachts and fancy dinners out and whatever it is that millionaires spend their money on.
The league gets its ~$2B share of BRI and they pay arena rent, pay the front office staff, pay the coaching staff, pay the training staff, pay any other associated staff, pay utility bills...in short, they pay every business expense except those they're trying to take off the top before BRI (which I think are travel expenses and expenses related to player benefits). So the owners don't walk away with ~$2B like the players do. In fact, the league is arguing that in total, the owners are losing money.
And here the players are, trying their damnedest to kill the goose that lays the golden egg. A labor dispute is one thing, and I can understand that from both sides. But decertification, if they actually carry through with it (as opposed to using it as a negotiating tactic, which is sleazy enough) is pretty much killing that goose. Not only is the season immediately gone, but since the only real reason to decertify is to bring anti-trust lawsuits, there will be legal wrangling that could shut down the league for years. If the players lose, it would have been all for nothing. If the players win, it would radically alter the face of professional sports, making league parity impossible, strangling small markets in all sports...when you're talking nuclear, I mean the players winning an anti-trust suit against the league would for the most part nuke professional sports in any cities not named New York or Los Angeles. Great move.
Make no mistake, there is peer pressure in the NBA. However, what a player might say when surrounded by other players, could be entirely different when it comes to a private ballot. In the end, every player will look out for himself and his own needs. If they actually ask players to sign a petition and they barely get the 30% they need, then they might as well give up the idea of putting it to a vote.
By the way, for those that wonder what decertification means? Here's an article that explains it in great detail.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/michael_mccann/11/03/nba.labor.decertify/index.html
By the way, for those that wonder what decertification means? Here's an article that explains it in great detail.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/michael_mccann/11/03/nba.labor.decertify/index.html
Decertification would have to be approved by the NRLB, and its very iffy if that would happen. But if they were to approve it, then the league would retaliate by asking the board to void all existing contracts. Another iffy proposition. If everything is carried out to the enth degree, then we might as well just forget about the NBA for a long time. It would be a giant disastor, and one not easily reversed. As pointed out in the article I just posted, the league is ahead of the players union in the suit they filed in the 2nd district court. A suit that would disallow the players union from filing a anti-trust suit against the league.
This is the same suit that the NFL filed in the 8 district court and won. So there's precedent! The players would be taking a huge chance by traveling down this road, and if they truely wanted to decertify, they should have done it months ago. To do so now is just stupid.
This is the same suit that the NFL filed in the 8 district court and won. So there's precedent! The players would be taking a huge chance by traveling down this road, and if they truely wanted to decertify, they should have done it months ago. To do so now is just stupid.
Like I said above, these scumbags are behind all of this. Let's be honest. I follow the business of the NBA as close as anyone and I don't even know the ins and out of decertification so I know that the players don't have a clue. The agents are driving this thing just as much as Falk was back in '95 and '98 and it could be a disaster.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/...night-labor-fight-continues-because-of-agents
God, I really hope this is last second posturing on both sides as they grab for a final straw of leverage. I guess one can only hope.
The eternal optimist in me says that the NLRB rejects this within the 45 day window. That takes us to Christmas. The last lockout ended on January 6th as that was the drop dead date. This would still give us almost 2 weeks. With decertification no longer an issue, the players would be wise to take whatever deal is offered.
If the NLRB gives the agents and players what they want....we're screwed for a long time.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/...night-labor-fight-continues-because-of-agents
God, I really hope this is last second posturing on both sides as they grab for a final straw of leverage. I guess one can only hope.
The eternal optimist in me says that the NLRB rejects this within the 45 day window. That takes us to Christmas. The last lockout ended on January 6th as that was the drop dead date. This would still give us almost 2 weeks. With decertification no longer an issue, the players would be wise to take whatever deal is offered.
If the NLRB gives the agents and players what they want....we're screwed for a long time.
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Let's say the sides don't agree and the NBA falls apart.
What's to stop the NBA players from starting their own league?
They have the talent. The arenas will be sitting empty. The TV time will be open.
Who knows, pro basketball might even be better if it ran like a real business, owned by the players, instead of being a rich man's hobby.
I'm not saying I want this to happen. I would have been more than happy to have had the season start on time this year. This all just underlines what I've said before about the owners being in a weaker position than it might seem. Those several hundred million dollar franchises can shrivel up and blow away. Pro basketball can live perfectly well without people like David Stern and Mark Cuban. The top 30 players in the NBA, OTOH, are irreplaceable. They could start their own league if they had to and people would watch it because it was the best in the world.
The only thing that could stop them was if there was some kind of contractual issue that prevented them from competing with the NBA.
Now I'm just speculating on this, but I can't believe it hasn't crossed Kobe's and LBJ's minds that they're the ones with the goods and that they could do just as well without the NBA ownership structure.
What's to stop the NBA players from starting their own league?
They have the talent. The arenas will be sitting empty. The TV time will be open.
Who knows, pro basketball might even be better if it ran like a real business, owned by the players, instead of being a rich man's hobby.
I'm not saying I want this to happen. I would have been more than happy to have had the season start on time this year. This all just underlines what I've said before about the owners being in a weaker position than it might seem. Those several hundred million dollar franchises can shrivel up and blow away. Pro basketball can live perfectly well without people like David Stern and Mark Cuban. The top 30 players in the NBA, OTOH, are irreplaceable. They could start their own league if they had to and people would watch it because it was the best in the world.
The only thing that could stop them was if there was some kind of contractual issue that prevented them from competing with the NBA.
Now I'm just speculating on this, but I can't believe it hasn't crossed Kobe's and LBJ's minds that they're the ones with the goods and that they could do just as well without the NBA ownership structure.
There's nothing stopping them from starting another professional league if the players vote to decertify - because that would void all NBA contracts. Then they could launch (however difficult) a new league even though NBA could sue to try and stop it. The thought has definitely crossed the mind of various NBA players, a couple who have spoken of it as sort of, "forced to do it, final option."
The players could try this route, but it would be much more difficult than they think. First, they would still need someone to own the teams (don't see players paying themselves), which would bring up all of these problems again with different owners. Second, I doubt it would be easy to get the use of any of the current arenas assosiated with the NBA (and we know here better than anyone how hard it is to build one). Third, how do they decide what players are on what teams? Fourth, they would have to do TV contracts, and I'm sure they wouldn't be able to use any of the stations who currently have contracts with the NBA.
That is just a quick list off the top of my head (I'm sure there would be many more obsticles). All of these would take a lot of time (maybe years) to figure out. How many of the current players would no longer be able to play because of age? How many would have gone bankrupt in the meantime? It would just be a very stupid idea IMO.
That is just a quick list off the top of my head (I'm sure there would be many more obsticles). All of these would take a lot of time (maybe years) to figure out. How many of the current players would no longer be able to play because of age? How many would have gone bankrupt in the meantime? It would just be a very stupid idea IMO.
INDIANAPOLIS (AP)—A charity game involving NBA players scheduled for Sunday in New Castle, Ind., has been canceled.
A release from event organizers says that because of the “uncertainty” of Saturday’s NBA negotiations in New York many of the players scheduled to participate were advised to prepare for a possible agreement.
The “King of the Castle” event was to pit the Knox Indy Pro-Am League stars against Mario Chalmers’(notes) Rio All-Stars. Washington’s John Wall(notes), Memphis’ Zach Randolph(notes) and Los Angeles’ Eric Gordon(notes) were expected to play.
NBA owners and players met for several hours with federal mediator George Cohen on Saturday.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=ArgEHe_kDfP.CwhChoZKOSa8vLYF?slug=ap-charitygamecanceled
It's probably the same crap as last week.. Who knows.
A release from event organizers says that because of the “uncertainty” of Saturday’s NBA negotiations in New York many of the players scheduled to participate were advised to prepare for a possible agreement.
The “King of the Castle” event was to pit the Knox Indy Pro-Am League stars against Mario Chalmers’(notes) Rio All-Stars. Washington’s John Wall(notes), Memphis’ Zach Randolph(notes) and Los Angeles’ Eric Gordon(notes) were expected to play.
NBA owners and players met for several hours with federal mediator George Cohen on Saturday.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=ArgEHe_kDfP.CwhChoZKOSa8vLYF?slug=ap-charitygamecanceled
It's probably the same crap as last week.. Who knows.
NBA has a proposal on the table.
BRI would be between 49-51% for players based on meeting projections of revenue, as well as no sign-and-trades for teams over cap and a mini-MLE ($2.5m) for teams over the cap.
Deadline for the players to accept is end of business day Wednesday.
If the players reject, league drops offer down to 47% and a flex-cap.
If the players don't take the offer on the table, the odds of losing the entire season increase dramatically.
I truly hope that enough players want to play and get paid this season, otherwise we probably will lose it.
From a PR perspective, Owners are coming out of this looking very reasonable as they basically adopted 5 of 6 of the mediator's recommendations to offer to the players.
BRI would be between 49-51% for players based on meeting projections of revenue, as well as no sign-and-trades for teams over cap and a mini-MLE ($2.5m) for teams over the cap.
Deadline for the players to accept is end of business day Wednesday.
If the players reject, league drops offer down to 47% and a flex-cap.
If the players don't take the offer on the table, the odds of losing the entire season increase dramatically.
I truly hope that enough players want to play and get paid this season, otherwise we probably will lose it.
From a PR perspective, Owners are coming out of this looking very reasonable as they basically adopted 5 of 6 of the mediator's recommendations to offer to the players.
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I imagine that we'll see three factions of players.
Players who will stand behind the union and their rejection of the proposal, players who want to decertify, and players who want to play this season.
I'm hoping that the 3rd group of players are the largest and can put enough pressure on the union to get them to accept. (Or to make a counter-proposal (Perhaps with the mechanism that governs the 49-51 band) that the owners will accept.)
And from a PR standpoint, the Owners win big. There are those lawsuits that each side has, indicating that the other side wasn't negotiating in good faith. Well by taking most of the suggestions of the mediator, the Owners really put themselves in a good spot.
Players who will stand behind the union and their rejection of the proposal, players who want to decertify, and players who want to play this season.
I'm hoping that the 3rd group of players are the largest and can put enough pressure on the union to get them to accept. (Or to make a counter-proposal (Perhaps with the mechanism that governs the 49-51 band) that the owners will accept.)
And from a PR standpoint, the Owners win big. There are those lawsuits that each side has, indicating that the other side wasn't negotiating in good faith. Well by taking most of the suggestions of the mediator, the Owners really put themselves in a good spot.
As a fan I don't care at all about the BRI split.
The system issues are what concern me, and though it's not the system I'd hope for, I'd be ok with the system changes proposed by the owners. As Stern said, "It's better than the system currently in place." Of course (being a Kings fan) I don't like the Amnesty, but if it came with not allowing teams over the cap to sign-and-trade as well as not giving them a full MLE, and some of the other components, I'd be ok with this deal.
I know it seems like doom from Fisher tonight, but I do think that this gives the union time to hear from their players, and if they can be at all logical, then they can either accept this deal, or counter-offer something close enough for the owners to accept.
But if there is complete rejection of this proposal I'm not remotely hopeful of a successful resolution this season as there is no way the players will agree to a 47% + flex cap with-out losing the season or decertifying.
The system issues are what concern me, and though it's not the system I'd hope for, I'd be ok with the system changes proposed by the owners. As Stern said, "It's better than the system currently in place." Of course (being a Kings fan) I don't like the Amnesty, but if it came with not allowing teams over the cap to sign-and-trade as well as not giving them a full MLE, and some of the other components, I'd be ok with this deal.
I know it seems like doom from Fisher tonight, but I do think that this gives the union time to hear from their players, and if they can be at all logical, then they can either accept this deal, or counter-offer something close enough for the owners to accept.
But if there is complete rejection of this proposal I'm not remotely hopeful of a successful resolution this season as there is no way the players will agree to a 47% + flex cap with-out losing the season or decertifying.
The players officially proposed 51%, but that was contingent on getting their way on all the remaining system issues. (Over cap teams could sign-and-trade and have full MLE at 4 years, 0.50 cent repeater tax, ect.)
If a compromise is done, I'd rather the league compromise on the BRI split (allow the players a 52-52.5% split) rather than compromise on the system issues.
If a compromise is done, I'd rather the league compromise on the BRI split (allow the players a 52-52.5% split) rather than compromise on the system issues.
