With the 7th pick in the 2011 NBA Draft, the Sacramento Kings select .....
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After last seasons Landry/Dally/JT/DMC debacle, I'm hesitant to create a minutes crunch at any one position. We were much better last season after Landry got dealt, Thornton came in and freed up as much minutes as possible for DMC/Dally/JT. The shorter the rotation the better, In my opinion... as long as guys are producing.
96 minutes a game for our guards. 32 each for Thornton/Evans/Udrih and your all out of minutes. And I think Kemba and Jimmer are both ready to play. Two of the more proven, polished guards in the draft .. I dont think its a great use of an asset to keep them on the bench. I'd feel better about Knight, because he's only 19 and probly less ready to play major minutes right from the getgo. Same for Leonard, Vesely, and Valaciunas... I could see all those guys benefiting from a small amount of minutes, where I think it could actually hurt Jimmer and Kemba.
Plus Udrih is really only 28, which is kind of remarkable. He just seems older.
I understand a lot of what I'm saying is very "nitpicky". But when the pospects are so close in talent like they are this year .. everything has to count for something. And hey, maybe I'm wrong, but thats how I feel at the moment.
96 minutes a game for our guards. 32 each for Thornton/Evans/Udrih and your all out of minutes. And I think Kemba and Jimmer are both ready to play. Two of the more proven, polished guards in the draft .. I dont think its a great use of an asset to keep them on the bench. I'd feel better about Knight, because he's only 19 and probly less ready to play major minutes right from the getgo. Same for Leonard, Vesely, and Valaciunas... I could see all those guys benefiting from a small amount of minutes, where I think it could actually hurt Jimmer and Kemba.
Plus Udrih is really only 28, which is kind of remarkable. He just seems older.
I understand a lot of what I'm saying is very "nitpicky". But when the pospects are so close in talent like they are this year .. everything has to count for something. And hey, maybe I'm wrong, but thats how I feel at the moment.
I'd agree with both of the flaws you pointed out, and also that both of them are correctable. He's not a slug, he can bring the ball up faster. If he's less comfortable handling the ball in the open floor than that's something he needs to work on. If it's just that he's playing at his preferred pace than the coach needs to tell him it's hurting the team. We could have someone else bring the ball up, but that's not going to help Tyreke's development. If he's going to be the PG, that's part of his game he needs to work on.
And for the shooting part, look at Derrick Rose and Russell Westbrook's 3 point percentages their first two years in the league and try not to throw up. Both of them got significantly better in their third season. So yeah Tyreke has some flaws right now but they're correctable flaws. Moving him off the ball for the rest of his career and slotting in a different PG seems like a mistake to me. Anyone who averaged almost 6 assists as a rookie is not unwilling to pass. Rose flourished when Chicago showed some confidence in him as the full-time PG and traded Hinrich. A healthy and motivated Tyreke at PG next year could be a very good thing.
Like you said, Thornton is pretty capable as a secondary playmaker and he can shoot or run the pick and roll. Another guard would help the team, but what scares me the most about drafting either Kemba or Jimmer is that everyone outside of Sacramento is going to immediately assume they're the starting PG now and I'm not so sure the Kings front office won't see it that way as well. Like I said before, I think that would be a mistake.
Actually, there's another thing that scares me about those two guys. Both of them were closers in college. Tyreke was our closer in his rookie season and Thornton played that role at times last year. We can't bring in a third guy now who expects to be on the floor in the fourth quarter and play all of them together unless Tyreke moves to SF in which case you can throw out defense all together and hope you just outscore everybody. You've just turned the biggest, strongest PG in the league into one of the smallest SF. I wouldn't put it past Westphal to test out that lineup.
And for the shooting part, look at Derrick Rose and Russell Westbrook's 3 point percentages their first two years in the league and try not to throw up. Both of them got significantly better in their third season. So yeah Tyreke has some flaws right now but they're correctable flaws. Moving him off the ball for the rest of his career and slotting in a different PG seems like a mistake to me. Anyone who averaged almost 6 assists as a rookie is not unwilling to pass. Rose flourished when Chicago showed some confidence in him as the full-time PG and traded Hinrich. A healthy and motivated Tyreke at PG next year could be a very good thing.
Like you said, Thornton is pretty capable as a secondary playmaker and he can shoot or run the pick and roll. Another guard would help the team, but what scares me the most about drafting either Kemba or Jimmer is that everyone outside of Sacramento is going to immediately assume they're the starting PG now and I'm not so sure the Kings front office won't see it that way as well. Like I said before, I think that would be a mistake.
Actually, there's another thing that scares me about those two guys. Both of them were closers in college. Tyreke was our closer in his rookie season and Thornton played that role at times last year. We can't bring in a third guy now who expects to be on the floor in the fourth quarter and play all of them together unless Tyreke moves to SF in which case you can throw out defense all together and hope you just outscore everybody. You've just turned the biggest, strongest PG in the league into one of the smallest SF. I wouldn't put it past Westphal to test out that lineup.
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Heard on the radio this morning that the lakers may be interested in trading Gasol to Minny for Love and the number two overall pick. Obviously it's probably just a rumor, but what isn't these days? And how do you guys think that would affect the draft and who the Lakers would take at number 2? They need to get younger at the guard position so maybe knight? Kanter? Williams?
The source is an article from Eric Pincus of Hoopsworld. It is complete speculation based on Chad Ford saying Minnesota is "hoping that a team comes along and offers them an impact veteran -- someone such as Pau Gasol, Monta Ellis or even JaVale McGee -- for the pick (#2 overall)."
It isn't based on any real rumors/sources.
It isn't based on any real rumors/sources.
Hey Baja, I respect the heck out of your opinion because you have watched these guys actually play a lot more than I have.
Offensively, Leonard may have a nice turnaround, but it's still concerning that it's not showing up in any stats. Mine or Synergy's. Stats are not everything. They need context, which is why I have a lot of interest in what you can add to them. But even compared to other defensive studs with limited offensive game like Ronnie Brewer, Tony Allen and Corey Brewer his offensive numbers were brutal. All three had better 2 point %s, 3 point %s, A/FGA and FTA/FGA. And Allen and Ronnie Brewer had nearly identical usage. Is there something you saw watching the games that gives you more hope for Leonard?
Defensively, I just wish we had some film of him against top competition. And for the record, the steal and block numbers are not meant to be read as, anyone who puts up good steal and block numbers will be a good NBA defender. Some players gamble and play horrible positional D. However, good NBA defenders pretty universally were able to play good man D in college AND put up big peripherals as well. It certainly doesn't mean Leonard can't become a good pro defender, but it's a bit disconcerting to see his numbers fall short of most of the great wing defenders currently in the league.
And agree on Burks. Haven't dug as deeply into his numbers, since he's not getting the same hype for our pick. But just taking a cursory glance at them, they don't appear too favorable either.
Offensively, Leonard may have a nice turnaround, but it's still concerning that it's not showing up in any stats. Mine or Synergy's. Stats are not everything. They need context, which is why I have a lot of interest in what you can add to them. But even compared to other defensive studs with limited offensive game like Ronnie Brewer, Tony Allen and Corey Brewer his offensive numbers were brutal. All three had better 2 point %s, 3 point %s, A/FGA and FTA/FGA. And Allen and Ronnie Brewer had nearly identical usage. Is there something you saw watching the games that gives you more hope for Leonard?
Defensively, I just wish we had some film of him against top competition. And for the record, the steal and block numbers are not meant to be read as, anyone who puts up good steal and block numbers will be a good NBA defender. Some players gamble and play horrible positional D. However, good NBA defenders pretty universally were able to play good man D in college AND put up big peripherals as well. It certainly doesn't mean Leonard can't become a good pro defender, but it's a bit disconcerting to see his numbers fall short of most of the great wing defenders currently in the league.
And agree on Burks. Haven't dug as deeply into his numbers, since he's not getting the same hype for our pick. But just taking a cursory glance at them, they don't appear too favorable either.
I guess that's true, but I also recall the consensus opinion at the time being that Beno's lack of production in a full season at PG had made his contract untradeable. He's one of the better backup PGs in the league or one of the worst starters and even when he's playing well, like he did this season, he's better at scoring the ball than setting up other players.
4 guards who have started in the NBA or might be able to start in the NBA is not a problem in my book. More likely than not, three will be the contributors in any given game depending on their matchups or simply who is on and who is not. Also, having 4 guards leaves us less vulnerable to the agony of putting a team on the floor with one being injured. I think we have to protect Reke's feet as an example. He either should get less minutes or we should be ready when he can't play.
I don't equate having 4 guards as the same log jam as we had at the SF position as we didn't have any SF capable of starting. I think the use of the SFs last year was to evaluate their ability to contribute in order to make a better deceison on either who to draft or who to pursue in free agency. Also having three guys at one position is different than having 4 guys at two positions.
Injury is a part of the game and the deeper we are the better.
As to the "bloated" salaries of who we are calling veterans, it's all relative. The value of having veterans on a team is identified by Petrie as a weakness. We do not have veterans. Unloading the only people that remotely could be called a veteran better be considered very carefully. This is especially true when these so called veterans are not hurting our salary cap position at all. We do not need to save money especially when it damages the team in another way. Money should be the least of our concerns.
All the picks at #7 have significant holes in their game, some more theoretical than others because we don't really know how they will play in the NBA.
I don't equate having 4 guards as the same log jam as we had at the SF position as we didn't have any SF capable of starting. I think the use of the SFs last year was to evaluate their ability to contribute in order to make a better deceison on either who to draft or who to pursue in free agency. Also having three guys at one position is different than having 4 guys at two positions.
Injury is a part of the game and the deeper we are the better.
As to the "bloated" salaries of who we are calling veterans, it's all relative. The value of having veterans on a team is identified by Petrie as a weakness. We do not have veterans. Unloading the only people that remotely could be called a veteran better be considered very carefully. This is especially true when these so called veterans are not hurting our salary cap position at all. We do not need to save money especially when it damages the team in another way. Money should be the least of our concerns.
All the picks at #7 have significant holes in their game, some more theoretical than others because we don't really know how they will play in the NBA.
First, I don't care what the fans think! When last I checked, the fans aren't the one's deciding playing time. As far as who the closer is, I say let the cream rise to the top. If Thornton is more reliable than Tyreke, then so be it. If a Walker or a Fredette comes in and is a better closer, then so be it. I'm a believer is letting the best players play, and that includes Tyreke. I never implied that his flaws wern't correctable. Of course they are. I'm a huge believer in players developing. But I'm not a believer in kissing the a$$ of any player based on past history. If we were to draft a Walker or a Fredette, and they come in and outplay Beno, then sorry Beno, but your minutes are going down and they're minutes are going up.
The best way to get the most out of every player is through competition. If you think there's a very talented guy sitting on the bench that wants your job, I guarantee you, that your going to bust your butt out there every night. If a Fredette comes in and pushes Beno futher down the bench, then your team just go better. As far as to who may or may not be on the floor at crunch time, I'll leave that to the Coach, and reserve my criticisms till then. I could sit here and worry about all kind of things that could go wrong. I could get hit by a truck crossing the street too. So lets worry about what we know, and not about what might be.
Let me finish by saying that I'm a huge Tyreke fan. I'm one of those that suggested we draft him when everyone else was foaming from the mouth over Rubio. So because I'm critical of him, that doesn't mean I don't like him, or want to get rid of him like some on this fourm do. He has some talents that few in the NBA have. But he has some flaws that are hindering the use of those talents to some extent. Thus, I bring them up. I think having guys like Thornton and, or a Walker/Fredette around him, would take some of the pressure off him and let him pick his spots. As a result, I think he could pick up 2 or 3 easy baskets every game because the spotlight wouldn't be shining on him all the time. Just my opinion.......
The best way to get the most out of every player is through competition. If you think there's a very talented guy sitting on the bench that wants your job, I guarantee you, that your going to bust your butt out there every night. If a Fredette comes in and pushes Beno futher down the bench, then your team just go better. As far as to who may or may not be on the floor at crunch time, I'll leave that to the Coach, and reserve my criticisms till then. I could sit here and worry about all kind of things that could go wrong. I could get hit by a truck crossing the street too. So lets worry about what we know, and not about what might be.
Let me finish by saying that I'm a huge Tyreke fan. I'm one of those that suggested we draft him when everyone else was foaming from the mouth over Rubio. So because I'm critical of him, that doesn't mean I don't like him, or want to get rid of him like some on this fourm do. He has some talents that few in the NBA have. But he has some flaws that are hindering the use of those talents to some extent. Thus, I bring them up. I think having guys like Thornton and, or a Walker/Fredette around him, would take some of the pressure off him and let him pick his spots. As a result, I think he could pick up 2 or 3 easy baskets every game because the spotlight wouldn't be shining on him all the time. Just my opinion.......
You characterize my fears as irrational, but Westphal already played Tyreke at SF some of the time this season and that was to make room in the lineup for Beno and Pooh Jeter. 
And then you can look at the Landry/Thompson dynamic or Cousins/Dally for the first half of the season or Greene/Casspi into next season probably unless one of them is traded. To borrow your analogy, if you got hit by a truck crossing the street on Tuesday and again on the same street on Thursday, wouldn't you be a little apprehensive about crossing that same street again?
Just as there's a valid argument for stockpiling talent regardless of fit, there's also a valid argument for GMs handing over a balanced roster to their head coaches. If we enter the season with a trio of scoring guards, unreliable small forwards, and no backup center and hope things just work out we can't be upset when they don't. I didn't say I would pass on the BPA available because I don't trust our coach, just that I would be apprehensive. Using a high lottery pick on another scoring guard and expecting Westphal to utilize them sensibly just strikes me as being overly optimistic that's all. Petrie is going to have to be the one to establish defined roles by building the roster properly.
And I could care less what happens to Beno, it's the overwhelming sentiment that the team is best served by moving Tyreke out of the PG position that I'm against.
And then you can look at the Landry/Thompson dynamic or Cousins/Dally for the first half of the season or Greene/Casspi into next season probably unless one of them is traded. To borrow your analogy, if you got hit by a truck crossing the street on Tuesday and again on the same street on Thursday, wouldn't you be a little apprehensive about crossing that same street again? Just as there's a valid argument for stockpiling talent regardless of fit, there's also a valid argument for GMs handing over a balanced roster to their head coaches. If we enter the season with a trio of scoring guards, unreliable small forwards, and no backup center and hope things just work out we can't be upset when they don't. I didn't say I would pass on the BPA available because I don't trust our coach, just that I would be apprehensive. Using a high lottery pick on another scoring guard and expecting Westphal to utilize them sensibly just strikes me as being overly optimistic that's all. Petrie is going to have to be the one to establish defined roles by building the roster properly.
And I could care less what happens to Beno, it's the overwhelming sentiment that the team is best served by moving Tyreke out of the PG position that I'm against.
I'm nervous about the prospect of drafting a sf, and don't like that Leonard said after his workout the Kings told him we'd probably look to draft a 3.
The reason, we have a ton of cap space, and the best FA's by and large, are sf's. That is our biggest need. We also need a vet. I like both Leonard and Vesely, but do not like the idea of taking one, and then getting a vet sf through free agency. Then we have 4 sf's, not including Cisco. Of course we don't have to spend on a FA sf, but then what are we going to spend on?
There aren't any FA guards who will come in and make much of an impact. We might have to replace Daly, but we'll have to wait and see. Realistically, looking at the pool of free agents, and our needs, a sf makes all the sense in the world. Then why draft one as well? I don't like the idea of drafting a sf, along with Omri and Donte, and also going after a FA sf. Nor do I like the idea of having a rookie sf, Omri and Donte, and no other sf on the roster. We'll have not only a logjam, but we'll get below market value when trying to move one of them, because the rest of the league will know we need to move one to free up playing time and the rotation.
We have Reke/Thornton, who I expect to start next year. We have Cousins. We hope to have Dally. If we're going to make a splash with our cap space, and get someone who will really help this team, it has to be a sf at this point. We didn't clear all the cap space to only spend it on a couple vet fillers. That comes after the big signing.
If we do pick a sf, does that mean Petrie thinks Daly will walk, and instead is planning on using our $ for a replacement, maybe Nene or Chandler(who said a couple days ago he won't take a discount to stay in Dal). Why else would we take a sf? There is no point if Petrie is planning on signing AK/Prince/Battier.
As I said, I like both Leonard and Vesely, but not so much with both Omri and Donte on the roster, combined with our cap space, and the FA pool.
The reason, we have a ton of cap space, and the best FA's by and large, are sf's. That is our biggest need. We also need a vet. I like both Leonard and Vesely, but do not like the idea of taking one, and then getting a vet sf through free agency. Then we have 4 sf's, not including Cisco. Of course we don't have to spend on a FA sf, but then what are we going to spend on?
There aren't any FA guards who will come in and make much of an impact. We might have to replace Daly, but we'll have to wait and see. Realistically, looking at the pool of free agents, and our needs, a sf makes all the sense in the world. Then why draft one as well? I don't like the idea of drafting a sf, along with Omri and Donte, and also going after a FA sf. Nor do I like the idea of having a rookie sf, Omri and Donte, and no other sf on the roster. We'll have not only a logjam, but we'll get below market value when trying to move one of them, because the rest of the league will know we need to move one to free up playing time and the rotation.
We have Reke/Thornton, who I expect to start next year. We have Cousins. We hope to have Dally. If we're going to make a splash with our cap space, and get someone who will really help this team, it has to be a sf at this point. We didn't clear all the cap space to only spend it on a couple vet fillers. That comes after the big signing.
If we do pick a sf, does that mean Petrie thinks Daly will walk, and instead is planning on using our $ for a replacement, maybe Nene or Chandler(who said a couple days ago he won't take a discount to stay in Dal). Why else would we take a sf? There is no point if Petrie is planning on signing AK/Prince/Battier.
As I said, I like both Leonard and Vesely, but not so much with both Omri and Donte on the roster, combined with our cap space, and the FA pool.
At a certain point you don't want to be bringing in guys to muddy the waters. It confuses the player, it confuses the team. Miami doesn't import shooting guards every year to press Wade. From an organizatinal standpoint its important to know who your main guys are going to be. You can market them, you can try to bring in compleimentary players to work off their strengths and covere their weaknesses, you can bulld an identity. We may or may not have reached that point, but you could see toward the end of last season how much more comfortable people looked out there knowing that Daly and Cousins and Reke and Thornton were going to start every night. That Beno and JT were going to get the bulk of the guard/big man minutes off the bench. Guys got more consistent, looked steadier, and played better team ball. A player always under threat is much more likely to get the mix wrong, try to prove something, and play for himself. You need that to be the state while you are figuring out who your guys are, but once you know yo need to clear space fro them. Actively bringing in replacements every year is actually pretty much an insult.
Hypothetically, if we do this, we could challenge for playoff spot
Thorton(resign)
Daly(resign)
Fredette
AK47 or Prince(sign)
Now, if we do this, and lose Daly, we have no chance
Thornton(resign)
Leonard---->leads to no vet sf signing
sign a capable backup FA
I could see both happening. If it's the latter, Petrie should lose his job. You don't talk for years about creating cap space, have one need above all others, have vet FA's who could fill that need, and then plug a rookie in a weak draft into that position, and create even more of a logjam at the sf, with no clear cut favorite.
Thorton(resign)
Daly(resign)
Fredette
AK47 or Prince(sign)
Now, if we do this, and lose Daly, we have no chance
Thornton(resign)
Leonard---->leads to no vet sf signing
sign a capable backup FA
I could see both happening. If it's the latter, Petrie should lose his job. You don't talk for years about creating cap space, have one need above all others, have vet FA's who could fill that need, and then plug a rookie in a weak draft into that position, and create even more of a logjam at the sf, with no clear cut favorite.
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I would be surprised if we missed the playoffs next season. This team was hitting a very good rhythm at the end of the season post Thornton and had a fixed rotation for once. We have our guard rotation down and it might even get better. We have our bigs who seem to be getting along swimmingly and we need to plug a hole at SF and I would be greatly disapponted and actually feel lied to by the Maloofs if we didn't.
This team could account for twice as many wins if we play 82. Except for the phenomena that some people underestimate the importance of Thornton to this team I suspect most people who have endlessly analyzed this roster would agree with me.
This team could account for twice as many wins if we play 82. Except for the phenomena that some people underestimate the importance of Thornton to this team I suspect most people who have endlessly analyzed this roster would agree with me.
Indeed. It could be good gravy however and I see two picks that are on different sides of the pot: Fredette who I see as a sure thing and Vesely who I see as a risk with a possibilty of huge reward. Almost any approach works for me.
(Let the TDOS end!!!!!!!!!!!!!) Oh, heck, let TDPDP end. The dreaded pre-draft period, if you must know.
(Let the TDOS end!!!!!!!!!!!!!) Oh, heck, let TDPDP end. The dreaded pre-draft period, if you must know.
of course the kings brass would tell leonard they'd probably draft a 3.. it would be rude to go and say... no we just wanted to wear you out.... don't hold your breath were drafting ____
i agree that we can fill the SF hole with a vet in the FA. we don't need an elite, we need a solid one. this will enable us to move either casspi or greene packaged with one of our guards..(personally id look to trade greene, got a feeling casspi will do well this third year along with reke.. ) for a pick. late first rounder.
i agree that we can fill the SF hole with a vet in the FA. we don't need an elite, we need a solid one. this will enable us to move either casspi or greene packaged with one of our guards..(personally id look to trade greene, got a feeling casspi will do well this third year along with reke.. ) for a pick. late first rounder.
You characterize my fears as irrational, but Westphal already played Tyreke at SF some of the time this season and that was to make room in the lineup for Beno and Pooh Jeter. And then you can look at the Landry/Thompson dynamic or Cousins/Dally for the first half of the season or Greene/Casspi into next season probably unless one of them is traded. To borrow your analogy, if you got hit by a truck crossing the street on Tuesday and again on the same street on Thursday, wouldn't you be a little apprehensive about crossing that same street again?
Just as there's a valid argument for stockpiling talent regardless of fit, there's also a valid argument for GMs handing over a balanced roster to their head coaches. If we enter the season with a trio of scoring guards, unreliable small forwards, and no backup center and hope things just work out we can't be upset when they don't. I didn't say I would pass on the BPA available because I don't trust our coach, just that I would be apprehensive. Using a high lottery pick on another scoring guard and expecting Westphal to utilize them sensibly just strikes me as being overly optimistic that's all. Petrie is going to have to be the one to establish defined roles by building the roster properly.
And I could care less what happens to Beno, it's the overwhelming sentiment that the team is best served by moving Tyreke out of the PG position that I'm against.
And then you can look at the Landry/Thompson dynamic or Cousins/Dally for the first half of the season or Greene/Casspi into next season probably unless one of them is traded. To borrow your analogy, if you got hit by a truck crossing the street on Tuesday and again on the same street on Thursday, wouldn't you be a little apprehensive about crossing that same street again? Just as there's a valid argument for stockpiling talent regardless of fit, there's also a valid argument for GMs handing over a balanced roster to their head coaches. If we enter the season with a trio of scoring guards, unreliable small forwards, and no backup center and hope things just work out we can't be upset when they don't. I didn't say I would pass on the BPA available because I don't trust our coach, just that I would be apprehensive. Using a high lottery pick on another scoring guard and expecting Westphal to utilize them sensibly just strikes me as being overly optimistic that's all. Petrie is going to have to be the one to establish defined roles by building the roster properly.
And I could care less what happens to Beno, it's the overwhelming sentiment that the team is best served by moving Tyreke out of the PG position that I'm against.
If you tell me that your going to design a roster with the thought in mind, to be Westphal tinkering proof, then yes, in that case your being irrational. If thats the problem, you change the coach, not the roster. There's nothing unbalanced about having 4 guards on the roster. And if its your contention that one of the four should intentionally be a player of lesser quality, as a method of keeping Westphal from giving that player minutes, then you've lost me.
This is a team that won 24 games last year. It needs all the help it can find, regardless of position. When their turn comes at 7, they should draft the best player on their board thats still available. If thats Walker, fine. Leonard, fine. Fredette, fine. I have my preferences, but I'll trust them to make the right decision.