The Frontcourt

[Bricklayer]

Well, since we get to talk about basketball again, thought I would take a look at some numbers I have been meaning to since the end of the season. Here are the Post All Star break numbers for our well defined three big rotation, as well selected comparisons:

Kings
Cousins 29gms 30.8min 14.2pts (.424 .000 .704) 9.3reb 3.8ast 1.3stl 0.9blk 4.0TO
Dalmbrt 29gms 29.8min 11.4pts (.477 .000 .730) 11.1reb 0.9ast 0.6stl 1.3blk 2.2TO
Thomps 29gms 26.8min 10.0pts (.537 .000 .532) 6.8reb 1.5ast 0.3stl 0.8blk 1.6TO
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals: 29gms 87.4min 35.6pts (.--- .000 .---) 27.2reb 6.2ast 2.2stl 3.0blk 7.8TO

-- since all 3 guys played in every Post All Star break game, its a very clean statline. There are 96 minutes a game at the PF/C positions, these three played 87.4 of the 96. Darnell Jackson added 7 min/gm in 26 of the 29 gms, accounting for virtually of the remainder.

So now taking those stats and comparing this trio to the prominent trios of the remaining teams in the annual "Smallball Doesn't Work Tournament" aka The NBA Playoffs (I have alsoi listed games each trio missed after the break, since the more games missed, the more inflated the trio's stats will look as the minutes/shots are given to the remaining guys when somebody is out):

Kings (Cousins, Dalembert, Thompson) -- 87/87gms
87.4min 35.6pts 27.2reb 6.2ast 2.2stl 3.0blk 7.8TO

Memphis (Randolph, Gasol, Arthur) -- 73/75gms
83.4min 41.7pts 21.4reb 6.2ast 2.9stl 3.2blk 4.9TO

Bulls (Boozer, Noah, Gibson) -- 75/84gms
79.9min 30.6pts 23.7reb 5.0ast 2.1stl 2.4blk 4.8TO

Lakers (Bynum, Gasol, Odom) -- 72/75gms
97.5min 43.2pts 29.3reb 7.8ast 1.7stl 4.0blk 4.6TO

Mavs (Dirk, Chandler, Haywood) -- 68/78gms
82.8min 38.1pts 23.7reb 3.8ast 1.4stl 2.7blk 3.7TO

Thunder (Ibaka, Perkins, Collison) -- 71/84gms
77.2min 21.2pts 21.2reb 2.5ast 1.6stl 4.3blk 3.6TO

Conclusion: Ridiculous number of turnovers aside (ahem, I'm largely, but not completely, looking at you Mr. Cousins) this is a playoff caliber frontcourt. Not even first round playoff, but deep playoff. When Cousins develops....

 

[bozzwell]

I expect Cousins shooting % to go up and TO's down. His assist might improve as well. That pushes the frontcourt into Lakers/Memphis territory. I am as giddy as I ever was about Cousins, but boy is it good to see that the whole frontcourt is performing at a high level (TO's aside).

Great run-down Brick.

 

[gunks]

We really have to keep Dally. I'm getting worried with all this talk of playoff teams lusting after him. He could be the final piece for a lot of those teams (Miami, NY) that push them into contender territory. If I'm Dally I'm not sure I stick around here waiting for the rebuild to pay dividends when I can go to NY or play with the superfriends. Alas, money talks...So even if we keep him, its probably going to be at the cost of a contract we regret a couple seasons down the line....

...Anyways, I digress....

Fun to see the numbers, even more fun to see that we compare favorably with some of the league's best frontcourts. I had no idea Cuz was getting almost 4 assists a game. He is going to be nasty in a couple years. He's already nasty. Keeping him paired with a Dally-esque player (if not Dally himself) is going to be key moving foward. Get well soon Hassan! Also, JT is so much better than Landry as the 3rd big its not even funny. He really ended the year great. Its amazing what having consistent minutes and a defined role will do.

 

[Nighthawk1]

Nice breakdown Brick! I agree with you gunks when you said "a defined role". I think this is what has been missing for quite some time here and that last half of the season our frontcourt got their more defined roles and we can see the output they can give with it. I expect much the same and better (in TO department) next season with DMC having a better grasp of the NBA game.

 

[rainmaker]

I have zero problems with our big man rotation if Dally returns. Not a pressing need in any way. A more defined role offensively for Dally, and our guards not consistently throwing him the ball and expecting him to do something with it would do wonders for us.

 

[Sluggah]

Just read that the Knicks are planning to go after Dalembert. I fear that it'll be very hard to keep him given the kind of contracts the Knicks throw at people and the financial situation of the Maloofs.

 

[pshn80]

Glad to be back to basketball. Thanks Brick. Very interesting to see how they compare with each other and with the league. I agree that our present rotation up front will do the job. We could do worse than keeping Jackson as our fourth choice.

 

[rainmaker]

Just read that the Knicks are planning to go after Dalembert. I fear that it'll be very hard to keep him given the kind of contracts the Knicks throw at people and the financial situation of the Maloofs.

Did you even bother looking at their salary cap situation which we've gone over in another thread?

 

[Bricklayer]

Just read that the Knicks are planning to go after Dalembert. I fear that it'll be very hard to keep him given the kind of contracts the Knicks throw at people and the financial situation of the Maloofs.

Knicks can't throw contracts at people without the caproom. If Daly was already on their roster, sure. As is we could double their best offer and still have money left over (not that I am suggesting that's a good idea mind you).

 

[SacTownKid]

I'd love to have Daly back for sure, but if Nene hits the market I say let him go and go after Nene. I've obviously been a detractor of the whole "Nene is a star" idea, I still feel he's not productive enough to be a teams best big, but next to Cuz, it could be a SPECIAL duo. Nene wouldn't have to be the man and could focus on what he does well, just be a glue guy that you can run plays through.

 

[KingsInBrazil]

I'd love to have Daly back for sure, but if Nene hits the market I say let him go and go after Nene. I've obviously been a detractor of the whole "Nene is a star" idea, I still feel he's not productive enough to be a teams best big, but next to Cuz, it could be a SPECIAL duo. Nene wouldn't have to be the man and could focus on what he does well, just be a glue guy that you can run plays through.

I'd love to have Nene too (mostly because I'm brazilian lol) but the biggest problem is Nene is strongly considering opting out of his already huge contract, maybe he wants something bigger and maybe on a playoff team... that put aside Nene is a more talented big IMO, but we cant let go Dalembert's Defense come playoff time... Nene and the rest of Nuggets frontcourt couldnt stop Durant, let alone Randolph, Gasol (both of them) and Dirk...

dunno I would be fine with either one, but we definetely need to come back next season with a proven veteran Center if we want to make a playoff push!

 

[Superman]

We could do worse than keeping Jackson as our fourth choice.

That said, we need a better 4th big man than Darnell Jackson. Sorry.

However, of much more importance is keeping Dalembert, and figuring something out at small forward.

 

[Sluggah]

Knicks can't throw contracts at people without the caproom. If Daly was already on their roster, sure. As is we could double their best offer and still have money left over (not that I am suggesting that's a good idea mind you).

I seeeee. Glad to hear it.

Today 04:59 PMrainmaker
Did you even bother looking at their salary cap situation which we've gone over in another thread?

I do not always read every thread in every section of the forums. My deepest and most sincere apologies.

 

[gunks]

I'd love to have Daly back for sure, but if Nene hits the market I say let him go and go after Nene. I've obviously been a detractor of the whole "Nene is a star" idea, I still feel he's not productive enough to be a teams best big, but next to Cuz, it could be a SPECIAL duo. Nene wouldn't have to be the man and could focus on what he does well, just be a glue guy that you can run plays through.

Nene doesnt bring the D or rebounding that Dally does. Not that he's awful at either, but I like the Cuz/Dally fit.

I'd be down with Nene as a backup plan though assuming we lose the services of Dally.

 

[Livinthedream]

The frontcourt is solid for sure. Very legit. Since there are no pressing needs there, I hope we resign Daly and look to fill some true holes. Only reason I would want us to start looking to upgrade with Nene is if we get lucky and pick up D. Williams in the draft. Even then, it depends on how the organization feels about Whiteside. Otherwise, keep what you have down low and spend your extra money on a small forward.

I don't think Darnell Jackson would even factor into the equation if Cousins could keep himself out of foul trouble. Maybe with a little maturity, he'll do better with that next year.

 

[SacTownKid]

Nene doesnt bring the D or rebounding that Dally does. Not that he's awful at either, but I like the Cuz/Dally fit.

I'd be down with Nene as a backup plan though assuming we lose the services of Dally.

Maybe not, but he's still a good defender. Daly for what he does well, it has to be remembered that he has various drawbacks in other parts of the game, and pretty major ones at that. Taking a bit of a hit in one area to absolutely vault forward in other aspects isn't always a bad thing.

Depends on how much of a hit it is to re-sign both Thornton and Dalembert and how much it limits options moving forward. I don't like the idea of being locked into a team that while it showed promise and whose foundation still has a real chance to become superstars, still won 24 games. I also would rather see Cousins eventually slide to that C spot full time. Daly looked really good offensively late in the year, but I'd like to have a player next to Cousins that makes it impossible for them to match up with him defensively. Nene and Cousins could abuse whoever the opposing teams PF guards.

 

[Bricklayer]

Maybe not, but he's still a good defender. Daly for what he does well, it has to be remembered that he has various drawbacks in other parts of the game, and pretty major ones at that. Taking a bit of a hit in one area to absolutely vault forward in other aspects isn't always a bad thing.

Depends on how much of a hit it is to re-sign both Thornton and Dalembert and how much it limits options moving forward. I don't like the idea of being locked into a team that while it showed promise and whose foundation still has a real chance to become superstars, still won 24 games. I also would rather see Cousins eventually slide to that C spot full time. Daly looked really good offensively late in the year, but I'd like to have a player next to Cousins that makes it impossible for them to match up with him defensively. Nene and Cousins could abuse whoever the opposing teams PF guards.

Its jsut almost impossible to keep that many offensive players happy or worth the $$ you are paying them. Its one of the other reasons every to team has bunches of defensive roleplayers on it -- the shots are spoken for by the stars, and having guys who can contribute without the ball then becomes invaluable. They were just learning how to work with each other, but you could already feel the strain on shots with Reke, Thornton and Cousins out there. And that's only going to get worse, potentially MUCH worse if somebody blows up, as these guys get old enough to drink.

 

['89 Kings Fan]

That said, we need a better 4th big man than Darnell Jackson. Sorry.

However, of much more importance is keeping Dalembert, and figuring something out at small forward.

Do we not think Whiteside can be the 4th big next year? I know he is raw but the only solution for that is to play him. For a fifth big why not bring Brockman back? He is signed for only a million a piece for the next two years. He is fine as long as your not playing him at center like Milwauke was 1/2 the time.

 

[Spike]

Whiteside is raw, but I think there's a mental component as well. This year, injuries kept him from practice, which is where he'll pick up more of the nuances of the game, as opposed to sticking him out there with a target on his back. Hopefully he takes to Dalembert a little more this year than he did last year.

 

[GoodOldDouwe]

How about adding Kurt Thomas as the 4th big man? He has a lot of experience(which could benefit Cousins and Whiteside) and played really well this year when Noah was out.

 

[Bricklayer]

How about adding Kurt Thomas as the 4th big man? He has a lot of experience(which could benefit Cousins and Whiteside) and played really well this year when Noah was out.

Yeah, that's kind of what a few of us have been thinking and Geoff may have been hinting at. The old experienced big who doesn't have much left, but knows how to play and knows how to fill in. On many nights he barely plays, but he knows how to step in if needed. He fills a minor hole, but he is no real impediment if Whiteside blossoms.

Thomas in particular came to mind for me too, but at this very late stage of the game he may be too far gone, and may not want to leave his perch on the bigtime winners to finish out the career here. Someone of his ilk might be the ticket though.

 

[SacTownKid]

Its jsut almost impossible to keep that many offensive players happy or worth the $$ you are paying them. Its one of the other reasons every to team has bunches of defensive roleplayers on it -- the shots are spoken for by the stars, and having guys who can contribute without the ball then becomes invaluable. They were just learning how to work with each other, but you could already feel the strain on shots with Reke, Thornton and Cousins out there. And that's only going to get worse, potentially MUCH worse if somebody blows up, as these guys get old enough to drink.

Nene in particular however isn't really a guy that you force feed the ball to. His most impactful years have seen him at around 12-13 points a game. That's why I think it could really work. His biggest asset is moving the ball and insuring those other players get better shots and otherwise just helping the offense flow.

As for divvying up shots, it's not like Dalembert didn't take his fair shar of shots late in the year. In fact, in terms of field goal attempts he was right around where Nene usually is. Difference is Nene touches the ball a lot more in the flow of the offense. When Dalembert touches the ball it was usually to shoot it.

Now, Daly obviously far exceeded expectations offensively. He definitely has some skill in regards to his passing and even his 8-10 foot range shot. Can that be relied upon at the highest level though? How much do you give up to get that inside presence. Sure there are some teams making a deep run with that prototypical defensive anchor but then there are teams like Memphis with Randolph and Gasol, the Lakers with Gasol, Odom, and Bynum, the C's who have always done a great deal of damage with Big Baby and Garnett out there together. I think this team is a lot closer to Memphis or LA as far as makeup goes as opposed to Chicago or Dallas. Not to say it wouldn't work, but I would certainly not approach this offseason like the team is set if I were Petrie. Once again, it all comes down to how much it costs and how much in inhibits future growth and flexibility, if you can sign both Thorton and Daly for a little above the MLE you do it and worry about the rest later, but both are certainly worth far more than that. We'll see.

 

[Bricklayer]

Nene in particular however isn't really a guy that you force feed the ball to. His most impactful years have seen him at around 12-13 points a game. That's why I think it could really work. His biggest asset is moving the ball and insuring those other players get better shots and otherwise just helping the offense flow.

As for divvying up shots, it's not like Dalembert didn't take his fair shar of shots late in the year. In fact, in terms of field goal attempts he was right around where Nene usually is. Difference is Nene touches the ball a lot more in the flow of the offense. When Dalembert touches the ball it was usually to shoot it.

Now, Daly obviously far exceeded expectations offensively. He definitely has some skill in regards to his passing and even his 8-10 foot range shot. Can that be relied upon at the highest level though? How much do you give up to get that inside presence. Sure there are some teams making a deep run with that prototypical defensive anchor but then there are teams like Memphis with Randolph and Gasol, the Lakers with Gasol, Odom, and Bynum, the C's who have always done a great deal of damage with Big Baby and Garnett out there together. I think this team is a lot closer to Memphis or LA as far as makeup goes as opposed to Chicago or Dallas. Not to say it wouldn't work, but I would certainly not approach this offseason like the team is set if I were Petrie. Once again, it all comes down to how much it costs and how much in inhibits future growth and flexibility, if you can sign both Thorton and Daly for a little above the MLE you do it and worry about the rest later, but both are certainly worth far more than that. We'll see.

Bynum is absolutely a defensive C, whatever his other skills. And of course the Celtics always had Kendrick Perkins. Now they don't. And now they are on the brink of elimination.

On Nene: a 12ppg Nene vs. a 12ppg Dalembert is no contest at all. Dalembert is the far better player. You are giving up somewhere arouond 3-4 rebounds a game by making that switch. That's before we get to the defnsive impact. Nene has to score/assist a LOT more than Dalembert to ever make up for that gap. And if he does, he may well just be stealing shots from our other offensive threats.

And our structure is:

PG: scorer
SG: scorer
SF:
PF: scorer (calling Cousins PF for these purposes)
C:

Now when you get down to it, almsot any good team is actually built exactly the same way. The positions varty, but the roles do not.

OKC:
PG: scorer
SG: defense
SF: scorer
PF: defense
C: defense

Memphis:
PG: irrelevant
SG: defense
SF: defense
PF: scorer
C: scorer (secondary)

Lakers:
PG: irrelevant (saavy)
SG: scorer
SF: defense
PF: scorer
C: defense (and scoring -- an edge)

Miami:
PG: irrelevant
SG: scorer
SF: scorer
PF: scorer
C: defense (they hope)

Boston
PG: defense (and distributor)
SG: scorer
SF: scorer
PF: scorer (and defense)
C: defense (if they can still get it)

Chicago
PG: scorer
SG: defense (or shooting -- roleplayer)
SF: scorer
PF: scorer
C: defense


Point of all that? NOBODY puts more than 3 scorers out there. And after that its a race to try to put out the best defenders and roleplayers you can find. Tehre is only one ball out there. Its the great limitation. So to finish our own chart:

This:
PG: scorer
SG: scorer
SF: defender
PF: scorer (calling Cousins PF for these purposes)
C: defender

looks like a good team

This:
PG: scorer
SG: scorer
SF: defender?
PF: scorer (calling Cousins PF for these purposes)
C: scorer

is a mess. And an expensive one.

 

[SacTownKid]

Bynum is absolutely a defensive C, whatever his other skills. And of course the Celtics always had Kendrick Perkins. Now they don't. And now they are on the brink of elimination.

On Nene: a 12ppg Nene vs. a 12ppg Dalembert is no contest at all. Dalembert is the far better player. You are giving up somewhere arouond 3-4 rebounds a game by making that switch. That's before we get to the defnsive impact. Nene has to score/assist a LOT more than Dalembert to ever make up for that gap. And if he does, he may well just be stealing shots from our other offensive threats.

And our structure is:

PG: scorer
SG: scorer
SF:
PF: scorer (calling Cousins PF for these purposes)
C:

Now when you get down to it, almsot any good team is actually built exactly the same way. The positions varty, but the roles do not.

OKC:
PG: scorer
SG: defense
SF: scorer
PF: defense
C: defense

Memphis:
PG: irrelevant
SG: defense
SF: defense
PF: scorer
C: scorer (secondary)

Lakers:
PG: irrelevant (saavy)
SG: scorer
SF: defense
PF: scorer
C: defense (and scoring -- an edge)

Miami:
PG: irrelevant
SG: scorer
SF: scorer
PF: scorer
C: defense (they hope)

Boston
PG: defense (and distributor)
SG: scorer
SF: scorer
PF: scorer (and defense)
C: defense (if they can still get it)

Chicago
PG: scorer
SG: defense (or shooting -- roleplayer)
SF: scorer
PF: scorer
C: defense


Point of all that? NOBODY puts more than 3 scorers out there. And after that its a race to try to put out the best defenders and roleplayers you can find. Tehre is only one ball out there. Its the great limitation. So to finish our own chart:

This:
PG: scorer
SG: scorer
SF: defender
PF: scorer (calling Cousins PF for these purposes)
C: defender

looks like a good team

This:
PG: scorer
SG: scorer
SF: defender?
PF: scorer (calling Cousins PF for these purposes)
C: scorer

is a mess. And an expensive one.

Not necessarily. As most things are in basketball, the level of threat the player is offensively with and without the ball has a lot to do with how it impacts the offense and opposing defense as a whole. Night in, night out, teams are going to let Dalembert be that guy that they basically say, "hey, go ahead and try to score that 20+ because you're the guy we're leaving". Do that with Nene and he will make teams pay at a much higher rate of success than Dalembert. Not to mention helping the offense flow as well. Nene is not, nor has he ever been a scorer I don't think. If he was, I agree, we don't need that. His lack of go to offense is why I was never on board for him to be the big we moved forward with before, just not productive enough. We need someone that can set screens, can swing the ball to the open man, play solid defense, body up bigger players and switch off onto smaller ones, and also make plays when called upon. Also with the way Wesphal likes to use both bigs in the post Nene would be a much greater weapon than Dalembert. Although like I said, Dalembert has certainly surprised me with what he can do.

Does it come down to giving up 3-4 rebounds per game? I don't know. I'd say at least 2 a night of that "3 to 4" were widely attainable by someone else. Sure it's a great skill to have but as evidenced by the Kings season last year, winning the battle of the boards, while extremely important, isn't the main factor that takes a team from 24 wins to contender status. All the great teams do things well, but probably more important for this team moving forward than focusing on rebounding personnel is assist to turnover differential. I think with Cousins and some of the other pieces the Kings have the battle of the boards won't be an issue.

I'm not saying the Kings don't need that big lanky shotblocker, just saying paying a premium for one that's somewhat limited in other aspects might not be the right thing to do at this point. You mention Perkins was very important to that C's team, but it's also well known that a lot of the games they played during their championship year ended with them playing a smaller unit. Also, you can't forget that Memphis' real SF is Rudy gay and they are a team chalk full of offensively minded players. You absolutely need the skill set, but you can also have it coming off your bench. I just don't think the issue is as clear cut as you do.

With Nene and a defensive minded SF I think there wouldn't be any issues with where the ball should go, or how the offense would run. If you think Nene is a "scorer" I disagree and this last playoff run for the Nuggets proved a lot of the doubts I had about Nene being a centerpiece of the Kings front court a few years ago when some brought it up. I think the Nuggets figured it out to. Great upper echelon role player, but a scorer? Not in my offense thank you very much.

 

[bajaden]

How about adding Kurt Thomas as the 4th big man? He has a lot of experience(which could benefit Cousins and Whiteside) and played really well this year when Noah was out.

I think they shipped Thomas off to the taxidermist.

 

[bajaden]

Good analogy Bricky! After watching Dallas beat the lakers last night, and how effective Chandler and Haywood were in matching up with Bynum and Gasol, I feel very comfortable going forward. There's been a lot of talk about Nene being the second choice if we can't resign Dalembert. I like Nene, but I don't think he fits as well as Dally. As I've stated before, my second choice would Chandler, who is similar player to Dalember, just a little more athletic. However, as you correctly stated, we probably have zero chance of getting him.

I predict Nene will be moved to the Knicks in a sign and trade for Issiah Thomas. Batteries not included.

 

[Lockehead]

Really excited to see how Cousins will do next season.

edit:

here are some highlights. I cant wait to see how he does 1 year of NBA experience and better conditioning. hes played 81/82 of the regular season games, as an out of shape big man. The desire to get better and learn is definitely there

 

[Bricklayer]

Not necessarily. As most things are in basketball, the level of threat the player is offensively with and without the ball has a lot to do with how it impacts the offense and opposing defense as a whole. Night in, night out, teams are going to let Dalembert be that guy that they basically say, "hey, go ahead and try to score that 20+ because you're the guy we're leaving".

that's nice in theory, but you have to think of the implications of what you are saying. If that were really some overriding problem then every defensive roleplayer from Dennis Rodman to Ben Wallace to Bruce Bowen would have crippled his team's offense, and far from that, those guys have more rings on their collective fingers than all but a handful of offensive guys.

 

[The Hammer]

Really excited to see how Cousins will do next season.

edit:

here are some highlights. I cant wait to see how he does 1 year of NBA experience and better conditioning. hes played 81/82 of the regular season games, as an out of shape big man. The desire to get better and learn is definitely there

Has there ever been a rookie with this kind of post game? Ever?

 

[Bricklayer]

Has there ever been a rookie with this kind of post game? Ever?

Well now, remember that once upon atiem guys stayed 4 years, and Hakeem was a rookie once too

At Demarcus's age has to be very rare though. Wish he could jump, but as is he needs to be studying lots of tape on guys like McHale and Randolph.