Draft Combine Measurements !!!!

[funkykingston]

I think we all agree Whiteside will take some time to develop. Big men always take longer to mature... like Bynum who is still learning. His measurements are good, it'll all depend on how he works out. Thats the only way to tell

Here are my issues with Whiteside:

He's rail thin
He's 21
He has a low basketball IQ
There are questions about his maturity and work ethic

None of those are deal breakers, but taken together they are a red flag.

Being rail thin isn't a problem for a young kid but at 21 you have to wonder why he hasn't added much weight already. Similarly, a low hoops IQ is always a bit of a red flag, but coupled with questions about whether he'll work hard it makes you that much more nervous.

Again, it's one thing to say, "he's got great measurements - he just needs to gain weight" and the reality which is that guys that come into the NBA at his size and weight RARELY gain significant weight. And so they learn to be successful without being a traditional big that can man defend in the post or score in the blocks.

IMO the biggest needs for the Kings are:

1) A second star to pair with Tyreke, regardless of position but hopefully a big
2) Low Post offense
3) Low post defense
4) Rebounding
5) Shotblocking

In my opinion, Whiteside would definitely provide the last one. I think being able to alter shots inside is important but I don't think you need a great shotblocker to be a good or even great defensive team.

And he will be a decent NBA rebounder if he can deal with getting banged around a bit inside. He'll never be a box out and secure the board type of guy, but with his length and athleticism he can go get rebounds.

That said, I don't see him providing any of the biggest three needs I see for this team.

 

[TTown Kings]

Actually Monroe tested out really well. He's 6'11 with shoes, about 247 and has a pretty good standing reach.

Yeah, and as someone else just pointed out he's a young sophmore and has a body type that could easily add more weight. He's pretty broad across the shoulders from what I remember.

 

[Vlade4GM]

He was a better defender at the college level than Cousins, sure.

Who will be a better defender at the NBA level? I don't know, that depends a lot on how hard Cousins works on his defense. Tools-wise he can be a good shot blocker and strong enough to hold his position. The point with Cousins is that he has the above average center reach to expect his shot blocking numbers to transfer. With Cousins' very good rebounding and post scoring ability, all I was really hoping for is that he'd have the tools to add something of value defensively.

With Aldrich? He doesn't offer what Cousins offers offensively, it's not even close. So that's why the standards are set much higher for him defensively, that's supposed to be his strength. Now I question his upside as a post defender. He can still very well be a solid post defender, but is that all we want from a guy who doesn't offer much post scoring? No thanks, I'll take Wesley Johnson or Epke Udoh instead.

 

[=LarryLegend=]

Yeah, and as someone else just pointed out he's a young sophmore and has a body type that could easily add more weight. He's pretty broad across the shoulders from what I remember.

I am leaning towards Greg Monroe if DeMarcus is gone.

I like Greg Monroe more for our current team than Wesley Johnson at the moment. unless we trade Andres Nocioni.

Greg Monroe and Jerome Randle/Jarvis Varnado i would be ok with.

 

[Vlade4GM]

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/NBA-Combine-Video-Interviews-Wall-Favors-Monroe-Udoh-Orton-3471

Enjoy

 

[roasthawg]

Here are my issues with Whiteside:

He's rail thin
He's 21
He has a low basketball IQ
There are questions about his maturity and work ethic

None of those are deal breakers, but taken together they are a red flag.

Being rail thin isn't a problem for a young kid but at 21 you have to wonder why he hasn't added much weight already. Similarly, a low hoops IQ is always a bit of a red flag, but coupled with questions about whether he'll work hard it makes you that much more nervous.

Again, it's one thing to say, "he's got great measurements - he just needs to gain weight" and the reality which is that guys that come into the NBA at his size and weight RARELY gain significant weight. And so they learn to be successful without being a traditional big that can man defend in the post or score in the blocks.

IMO the biggest needs for the Kings are:

1) A second star to pair with Tyreke, regardless of position but hopefully a big
2) Low Post offense
3) Low post defense
4) Rebounding
5) Shotblocking

In my opinion, Whiteside would definitely provide the last one. I think being able to alter shots inside is important but I don't think you need a great shotblocker to be a good or even great defensive team.

And he will be a decent NBA rebounder if he can deal with getting banged around a bit inside. He'll never be a box out and secure the board type of guy, but with his length and athleticism he can go get rebounds.

That said, I don't see him providing any of the biggest three needs I see for this team.

I agree with a lot of this... I'm up in the air on Whiteside. If the pick isn't Cousins or Aldrich then I hope it's Whiteside but I still have him behind Aldrich despite his higher upside. That could change though but Whiteside is just so raw.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Even with Orton's somewhat disappointing measurements, I'd still rather take a chance on him than Whiteside.

 

[rainmaker]

The Aldrich height really turned some of you guys off? He's .5 inches shorter than Cousins. And Im willing to guess there similar athletes. Standing Reach, Wingspan .. very similar to Cousins.

I would take Cousins over Aldrich, but the height isnt an issue for me.

Its not just the height difference which is a turnoff for me, but the height, combined with his standing reach, and weighing in at a wopping 236lbs tops it all off. His height is a concern, but his weight is a bigger concern IMO. Alrich will block plenty of shots coming from the weakside in the nba. But given his weight, I don't see how he will be a good man to man defender in the league. Maybe I'm wrong.

Spencer is about 250lbs, and gets backed down with minimal resistance. part of that is Spencer just being soft. But part is also due to the fact he's not as big or strong as opposing centers. Now Aldrich measures in as both shorter than Spencer, and weight wise, almost 15 lbs less. One thing you can't teach is size, and Cousins has size with the combination of footwork you don't see too often. IMO, Aldrich will be a better shot blocker, but I see Cousins altering a lot of shots, and being a much better man to man defender at this level. I don't see many centers backing Cousins down in the post. Combined with a 9'5" standing reach, he has the tools to be a very good defender, if not great, at this level.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Cousins

http://www.sacbee.com/2010/05/21/2766672/cousins-is-nbas-answer-man.html

 

[Tetsujin]

I think we all agree Whiteside will take some time to develop. Big men always take longer to mature... like Bynum who is still learning. His measurements are good, it'll all depend on how he works out. Thats the only way to tell

Two completely different stories, imo. Bynum came into the NBA at a younger age (straight out of high school) than Whiteside is, hell if I'm not mistaken, he's the same age as Whiteside. Whiteside also is 50 pounds or so lighter than Bynum.

 

[Tetsujin]

Here are my issues with Whiteside:

He's rail thin
He's 21
He has a low basketball IQ
There are questions about his maturity and work ethic

None of those are deal breakers, but taken together they are a red flag.

Being rail thin isn't a problem for a young kid but at 21 you have to wonder why he hasn't added much weight already. Similarly, a low hoops IQ is always a bit of a red flag, but coupled with questions about whether he'll work hard it makes you that much more nervous.

Again, it's one thing to say, "he's got great measurements - he just needs to gain weight" and the reality which is that guys that come into the NBA at his size and weight RARELY gain significant weight. And so they learn to be successful without being a traditional big that can man defend in the post or score in the blocks.

IMO the biggest needs for the Kings are:

1) A second star to pair with Tyreke, regardless of position but hopefully a big
2) Low Post offense
3) Low post defense
4) Rebounding
5) Shotblocking

In my opinion, Whiteside would definitely provide the last one. I think being able to alter shots inside is important but I don't think you need a great shotblocker to be a good or even great defensive team.

And he will be a decent NBA rebounder if he can deal with getting banged around a bit inside. He'll never be a box out and secure the board type of guy, but with his length and athleticism he can go get rebounds.

That said, I don't see him providing any of the biggest three needs I see for this team.

Come to think of it, Whitesides kind of reminds me of Keon Clark.

 

[Sparky6string]

He can still very well be a solid post defender, but is that all we want from a guy who doesn't offer much post scoring?

I can only answer for myself but the answer is definitely YES! I want post defense and shot blocking from the center position first and foremost, the rest is icing on the cake. He can learn to score, and even if he doesn't so freakin what? We have scorers but we have no one to play competent defense in the middle and we never have. We've had enough scoring at the center position, lets try defense for a while.

My other thoughts- Kentucky needs to hide the Twinkies! What's the deal with Orton being so fat? And did Cousins gain weight or were his numbers just false from before? It was a good season fellas, celebrate with a celery stick next time, and steer clear of Cold Stone eh?

Whiteside could get backed down and scored on by Tyreke regularly because of his weight or lack thereof. Johnson does indeed have good size for a SF and his measurements help him IMO. Still wish we could grab Alabi with our second pick- sure he's raw but he's so big.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Two completely different stories, imo. Bynum came into the NBA at a younger age (straight out of high school) than Whiteside is, hell if I'm not mistaken, he's the same age as Whiteside. Whiteside also is 50 pounds or so lighter than Bynum.

Bynum is 22. The difference is Bynum had the great Kareem tutoring him 1 on 1 everyday for 4.5 yrs and he's still not very polished. Its already a lot easier when you have one of the greatest centers ever to tell you directly all the tricks, all the footwork, defensive skills etc. So I guess you can look at it from 2 different angles.

 

[hammystyle]

Here are my issues with Whiteside:
He's 21

He's 20. Yes he turns 21 soon, but Wall and Cousins turn 20 soon too. So yes, he's old for his class by about 16 months or so, but don't round up on him and round down on everyone else.

Now compare him to say Greg Monroe, who's young for his class as a sophomore and he's a full year older than Monroe. That is a heck of a data point.

 

[funkykingston]

He's 20. Yes he turns 21 soon, but Wall and Cousins turn 20 soon too. So yes, he's old for his class by about 16 months or so, but don't round up on him and round down on everyone else.

Now compare him to say Greg Monroe, who's young for his class as a sophomore and he's a full year older than Monroe. That is a heck of a data point.

Yes, Whiteside is 20 but he'll by 21 before draft night.

But that's not really the point. Being 21 is hardly a drawback. I don't have any issue with Wes Johnson being 23. The issue is that Whiteside is nearly 21 and still completely rail thin. That's why the comparison to Dwight Howard is ridiculous. Howard was already a lot more solid and powerful at 18.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I can only answer for myself but the answer is definitely YES! I want post defense and shot blocking from the center position first and foremost, the rest is icing on the cake. He can learn to score, and even if he doesn't so freakin what? We have scorers but we have no one to play competent defense in the middle and we never have. We've had enough scoring at the center position, lets try defense for a while.

My other thoughts- Kentucky needs to hide the Twinkies! What's the deal with Orton being so fat? And did Cousins gain weight or were his numbers just false from before? It was a good season fellas, celebrate with a celery stick next time, and steer clear of Cold Stone eh?

Whiteside could get backed down and scored on by Tyreke regularly because of his weight or lack thereof. Johnson does indeed have good size for a SF and his measurements help him IMO. Still wish we could grab Alabi with our second pick- sure he's raw but he's so big.

Solid post defenders that don't add much offensively are not what you take with the 5th pick, sorry, that is an absolute waste of a top draft pick. You get it somewhere else. He's 6'10 236 with a 9'2.5 standing reach (I subtracted an inch from his ridiculous shoe thickness), and an average at best athlete. Those are not the physical attributes of a top post defender, those are the attributes of a decent post defender if they can make up for it with defensive skills.

I don't know if Orton is fat, his body fat % seems okay for a big guy and he looks pretty muscular.

 

[Sparky6string]

Solid post defenders that don't add much offensively are not what you take with the 5th pick, sorry, that is an absolute waste of a top draft pick. You get it somewhere else.

Where do we get it? Where have we ever gotten it? This kind of thing is not as plentiful as you think, if it were surely we would have had a decently defensive center by now. If Aldrich works out to be as good as Okafor then it will have been a wise pick. I'll go for Johnson when you score us a defensive center in Alrdich's place.

 

[SacTownKid]

I never had any use for Aldrich. I think he's been completely overrated all season. But that said, his combine numbers are the nail in the coffin as far as me and at all wanting him in a Kings uniform.

I'm not sure I have any use for Hassan Whiteside either, but his combine numbers are at least in line with what was expected.

Nearly 6'11" without shoes, nearly 7' in them with a 7'7" wingspan and 9'5" reach at 227 lbs. And I knew it would be low but a slightly surprising body fat of 5.5% (and his frame) suggest it would certainly be possible to add weight going forward.

Greg Monroe tested out well. Slightly taller but with a shorter reach and wingspan than Cousins, his weight is still a bit low (for a potential center) at 246 lbs but he certainly good enough for the PF spot. I'd only be interested if he could actually man the five spot and I'm not sure he can add too much more weight with his frame.

I don't think so. He measured out with incredible length and is only .5 inch shorter than Cousins. I'm interested to see his agility results because he looked to have crushed it. Cousins looked pretty iffy in the tests from what I could tell.

 

[bajaden]

Baja, what do you think of Udoh's measurements? He measured about what you'd expect height wise, but his reach is disappointing.

I thought he might be around 6'9" without shoes, so he was close. But I don't think having a 7'4" plus wingspan is that disappointing. His reach is a little shorter than I would have liked, but remember he's got pretty good hops. I would bet you every dollar I own that he would win a jump ball with Monroe. He was a great shotblocker in college. Like Varnado he just has those instincts that can't be taught. Would I have prefered him to be a little taller and have a little more reach? Sure! But we live in an imperfect world.

I would have been more concerned if Parakhouski had come in at 6'9" w/out shoes. He doesn't have the hops of some of the others, so he can't afford to be giving away inches.

 

[hammystyle]

You weren't talking about Aldrich?

No I replied to your comment on Monroe's size.

Aldrich I tend to agree. The measurements were all a bit below what he was expected to be. Especially the weight. I still think he's probly a solid starting center because he's just a sound fundamental player. But this was definitely the nail in the coffin for his potential at the 5 spot. Let Utah take him at 9.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Where do we get it? Where have we ever gotten it? This kind of thing is not as plentiful as you think, if it were surely we would have had a decently defensive center by now. If Aldrich works out to be as good as Okafor then it will have been a wise pick. I'll go for Johnson when you score us a defensive center in Alrdich's place.

Why do you think he could work out as good as Okafor? Okafor is stronger, much more athletic, and more offensively skilled than he is. That goes for Okafor now and when he came out of college. You don't waste top 5 draft picks on decent role playing starters. I don't care where we have to get a decent post defender, don't get it with the 5th pick in the draft.

 

[bajaden]

Here are my issues with Whiteside:

He's rail thin
He's 21
He has a low basketball IQ
There are questions about his maturity and work ethic

None of those are deal breakers, but taken together they are a red flag.

Being rail thin isn't a problem for a young kid but at 21 you have to wonder why he hasn't added much weight already. Similarly, a low hoops IQ is always a bit of a red flag, but coupled with questions about whether he'll work hard it makes you that much more nervous.

Again, it's one thing to say, "he's got great measurements - he just needs to gain weight" and the reality which is that guys that come into the NBA at his size and weight RARELY gain significant weight. And so they learn to be successful without being a traditional big that can man defend in the post or score in the blocks.

IMO the biggest needs for the Kings are:

1) A second star to pair with Tyreke, regardless of position but hopefully a big
2) Low Post offense
3) Low post defense
4) Rebounding
5) Shotblocking

In my opinion, Whiteside would definitely provide the last one. I think being able to alter shots inside is important but I don't think you need a great shotblocker to be a good or even great defensive team.

And he will be a decent NBA rebounder if he can deal with getting banged around a bit inside. He'll never be a box out and secure the board type of guy, but with his length and athleticism he can go get rebounds.

That said, I don't see him providing any of the biggest three needs I see for this team.

I think its a deal breaker when your talking about the 5th pick in the draft. Now if we were talking about the 14th pick, that would be different.

 

[hammystyle]

Yes, Whiteside is 20 but he'll by 21 before draft night.

But that's not really the point. Being 21 is hardly a drawback. I don't have any issue with Wes Johnson being 23. The issue is that Whiteside is nearly 21 and still completely rail thin. That's why the comparison to Dwight Howard is ridiculous. Howard was already a lot more solid and powerful at 18.

Oh I agree, I was just being nit-picky and want to make sure that if you bring up age, lets try to keep it in perspective and use this rule for this guy and this rule for that guy.

Whiteside has some HUGE red flags. The hardest one for me to swallow is that he had 10 assists last year. Kind of tells me he doesn't know what the hell he's doing out there. I'm small, slow and haven't played in about three years but I could play a run of four pickup games tomorrow and probly get more dimes then that. He's definitely not my guy at #5 currently (Monroe), however I could see some strong one on one workouts and good interviews changing that. He's got a home run skillset.

 

[bajaden]

He was a better defender at the college level than Cousins, sure.

Who will be a better defender at the NBA level? I don't know, that depends a lot on how hard Cousins works on his defense. Tools-wise he can be a good shot blocker and strong enough to hold his position. The point with Cousins is that he has the above average center reach to expect his shot blocking numbers to transfer. With Cousins' very good rebounding and post scoring ability, all I was really hoping for is that he'd have the tools to add something of value defensively.

With Aldrich? He doesn't offer what Cousins offers offensively, it's not even close. So that's why the standards are set much higher for him defensively, that's supposed to be his strength. Now I question his upside as a post defender. He can still very well be a solid post defender, but is that all we want from a guy who doesn't offer much post scoring? No thanks, I'll take Wesley Johnson or Epke Udoh instead.

Don't know if you watched the interview with Cousins today, but when asked what he was good at, he said scoring. When asked what his weakness was, he said defense. And he planned to be working on things like footwork etc, to improve in that area. He said most of the work he was doing was to get into shape and lose weight. He's on a fish only diet at the moment.

 

[Sparky6string]

Why do you think he could work out as good as Okafor? Okafor is stronger, much more athletic, and more offensively skilled than he is. That goes for Okafor now and when he came out of college. You don't waste top 5 draft picks on decent role playing starters. I don't care where we have to get a decent post defender, don't get it with the 5th pick in the draft.

Aldrich can bulk up some, he's not that small. His height is comparable to many centers and his weight is good for a guy just coming into the league. I think he can be as good as Okafor because Okafor is not that great despite being taken at #2 - it's a reasonable target to shoot for. They both have defensive games with good shot blocking and defense, marginal offense.

But you didn't answer my question- where do we get this defensive center if not the draft? We don't. We haven't, and we won't. We have the draft. This is our chance or never let me hear anyone complain about Hawes again.

 

[rainmaker]

Aldrich can bulk up some, he's not that small. His height is comparable to many centers and his weight is good for a guy just coming into the league. I think he can be as good as Okafor because Okafor is not that great despite being taken at #2 - it's a reasonable target to shoot for. They both have defensive games with good shot blocking and defense, marginal offense.

But you didn't answer my question- where do we get this defensive center if not the draft? We don't. We haven't, and we won't. We have the draft. This is our chance or never let me hear anyone complain about Hawes again.

236lbs is not good for any center coming into the nba. Ever.

 

[Sparky6string]

236lbs is not good for any center coming into the nba. Ever.

I disagree.

 

[bajaden]

Its not just the height difference which is a turnoff for me, but the height, combined with his standing reach, and weighing in at a wopping 236lbs tops it all off. His height is a concern, but his weight is a bigger concern IMO. Alrich will block plenty of shots coming from the weakside in the nba. But given his weight, I don't see how he will be a good man to man defender in the league. Maybe I'm wrong.

Spencer is about 250lbs, and gets backed down with minimal resistance. part of that is Spencer just being soft. But part is also due to the fact he's not as big or strong as opposing centers. Now Aldrich measures in as both shorter than Spencer, and weight wise, almost 15 lbs less. One thing you can't teach is size, and Cousins has size with the combination of footwork you don't see too often. IMO, Aldrich will be a better shot blocker, but I see Cousins altering a lot of shots, and being a much better man to man defender at this level. I don't see many centers backing Cousins down in the post. Combined with a 9'5" standing reach, he has the tools to be a very good defender, if not great, at this level.

Don't confuse weight and strength, and where the strength comes from. Aldrich is very fundamentally sound in the post, and has very good lower body strength, which is what you need to hold position. Look at the guy. He has very wide shoulders and a big frame. He can easily put on another 20 or so pounds of muscle.

If you watch Hawes defending the post, he's very upright and doesn't present a low center of balance. If you could watch Aldrich right afterwards, you would see an entirely different set up. He gets low and uses his lower body to hold position. I never worry as much about the guys with the big frames like Cousins, Aldrich, Monroe etc. Those guys can always lose or gain weight as needed. Its the one's like Whiteside and Varnado that I'm more concerned about. Especially Whiteside, since he's a center. Its a lot harder to put weight on those types of frames.

I'm not discounting them. Bill Russell wasn't a 280 pounder. But there aren't that many Russell's.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Aldrich can bulk up some, he's not that small. His height is comparable to many centers and his weight is good for a guy just coming into the league. I think he can be as good as Okafor because Okafor is not that great despite being taken at #2 - it's a reasonable target to shoot for. They both have defensive games with good shot blocking and defense, marginal offense.

But you didn't answer my question- where do we get this defensive center if not the draft? We don't. We haven't, and we won't. We have the draft. This is our chance or never let me hear anyone complain about Hawes again.

No, it's not good weight for someone who is a junior and is supposed to be a post defender. Could he improve on his weight? Yeah, but that there is still the difference between him and Okafor athetlically, which is significant, and that's even after a number of injuries for Okafor.

Trades? Free agency? It really doesn't matter because you're just going to deny any answer I give. Personally I don't care, I can accept going without a post defender if it means that we're not taking decent role players with the 5th pick. I could get behind Aldrich if I thought he could be a top post defender in the league, but I don't think that anymore. The only player that is a high quality post defender at his height and athleticism is Kendrick Perkins, and Perkins has about 2 inches more on him in standing reach and about 50 lbs in weight.

 

[bajaden]

Solid post defenders that don't add much offensively are not what you take with the 5th pick, sorry, that is an absolute waste of a top draft pick. You get it somewhere else. He's 6'10 236 with a 9'2.5 standing reach (I subtracted an inch from his ridiculous shoe thickness), and an average at best athlete. Those are not the physical attributes of a top post defender, those are the attributes of a decent post defender if they can make up for it with defensive skills.

I don't know if Orton is fat, his body fat % seems okay for a big guy and he looks pretty muscular.

I don't think the weights that their using are accurate. They said at the combine that Pittman came there in the best shape of his life and had lost a lot of weight, and yet they're using his weight from college. Same with Cousins who said he had lost weight.

Here's a question. Are they wearing shoes when they measure the standing reach? One would think so, but without knowing for sure, maybe you can't penalize Aldrich.